Wednesday, September 07, 2011

Why civilians shouldn't read EVALS ...

Admit it - the only thing almost everyone is more embarrassed to talk about in the military than meaninglessness the NAM, is how we write our Social Realist EVALS/FITREPS. To an outsider, bad Sailors look OK; OK Sailors look great; great Sailors get lost in the shuffle.

You know - take a standard-issue Sailor just doing his job in a normal way, and you get this from a reporter,
"superior professionalism, exceptional performance and selfless devotion." ... the "driving force" behind keeping the Tomahawk system safe and operational ... One superior said he would make an excellent commissioned officer.
That for a guy who in 2009 had a DWI and was recently kicked out of the Navy following NJP (45 days of restriction, 45 days of extra duty, demotion of one rank and forfeit of half his pay for two months) - not unheard of. From reading the article, it sounds like he got a an OTH as well.

What did he do for this? Well - he explains it thus;
"You kiss the wrong girl and it can affect your whole life,"
Who was that "girl?"
He admitted —- after initially denying —- that he had had a brief romance with a female ensign. ... the ensign — a graduate of the Naval Academy ...
Really? Really?
They were among five sailors aboard the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer Sampson who were charged this year with fraternization between officers and enlisted personnel.
...
(they) knew their relationship could get them in trouble. They had broken up even before the relationship came to the attention of the chain of command, he said.

But when the wife of an enlisted sailor complained to the command that her husband was having an affair with a female officer, (he) and the ensign were swept up in an investigation into improper romances aboard the Sampson.
Interesting female power dynamic in the Wardroom. Poor Skipper. Shipmate - not the Command experience you were hoping for; most of us have seen similar.

Read the whole thing as it gives a nice insight how difficult it is for civilians to understand the military.

As for the NJP - I think the CO did what he had to do; in this case the hammer seems about right. What I am interested in though is what happened to the female officers. It was their primary responsibilities as women but more importantly as officers to control this issue.

Their punishment - more than the enlisted personnel - should be the most public. Fear and shame, especially when combined, are great motivators and would serve to warn other officers male and female to follow the line of Grandmother Salamander; "Don't sleep with the help."


That is the story.

114 comments:

kmadams85 said...

My mind has never been able to wrap itself around the motivation to fraternize.  Internally (on all-male ships), I always played it as "OK to have a beer with the division; NOT OK to go drinking with the division."  Later, during a shore tour on a mixed-gender staff, I extended my personal rule to "OK to be friendly with the ladies on the staff; NOT OK to be buddies and beyond."  Simple enough even a SWO can do it.
Apparently, this kind of moral leadership decision is no longer taught effectively at the Academy.  Maybe it wasn't taught back in the 80s either, and I just picked it up along the way.

DeltaBravo said...

Oh, so many undertones and subtexts to all of this!  Since all the fun facts seem to be left out one can only speculate.  First of all, I'm very suspicious of this sailor, who has already shown, by his DWI history, that he views the rules as being for everyone but himself.  He'll do what he wants. consequences to others be damned.  I suspect he wasn't as wonderful a sailor as some of his fitreps implied.  While he may have been smart and technically savvy, there is an undertone of complete disrespect for authority.  An experienced sailor, he would have known the fraternization rules.  So along comes a shiny new ensign... pretty, and probably naive.  Her rank was not only not a hurdle to him, it was somewhat of a challenge... (I've heard tell of the kind... the enlisted guy who enjoys his little affair with the Colonel's daughter on base... behind daddy's back.)  They BOTH knew it was wrong, but rules don't matter.   Did he give a thought what this did for her Naval career?  All that taxpayer money down the drain? 

As for her... there's probably a mother out there she didn't listen to at all.  Her first assignment?  How long had she been there?  Who gets to her first post and immediately launches into an affair on site?  Didn't they teach them not to do that in the sexual assault classes at boat school?  As a woman, I'll say the female has lots of power in how far these things go.  One can encourage or discourage with one look.  She obviously didn't have an appreciation of her own rank or responsibilities.  What WAS she learning at boat school????

What's most amazing of all... they thought they could keep something like that a secret on a ship.   Just amazing all around....  boggles the mind.   Sal, your grandmother was correct.   The new generation doesn't understand rules are for a reason. 

kmadams85 said...

Page two covered consequences for the Ensign:

"As for the ensign, Hendershot said she was transferred off the Sampson and had a negative letter put in her personnel file, the kind of action that may make it impossible for her to sign up for another hitch. The daughter of a Navy captain, she was not immediately dismissed."

Of course implying that her parentage had anything to do with the decision.  Which it might, but not likely.  If I were that CO, I would probably include a "Not Recommended" FITREP along with the letter.  Being ineligible for promotion, she would then be forced out under the up/out rules, but I'm not sure how that works for the O-1 to O-2 promotion.

DeltaBravo said...

Makes sense to get some work out of her considering the expense put into her education.

I can't imagine that phone conversation with daddy after the fit hit the shan.

Didn't Captain Daddy sit down and have a long talk with his little girl before he sent her aboard a ship full of young eager men?

LT B said...

Female Officer means different rules.  Full Stop.  Not supposed to be that way, but it is what it is.  I know there are several E-dogs that try to get their O-card punched.  There are female officers that will play that game as well because they have a different standard.  JG on a ship in Japan was sleeping w/ male/female/O's/E's and EVERYBODY on the waterfront knew.  She was quietely moved to another command CONUS.  She wasn't kicked out, she wasn't sent to mast.  My life in the Navy has shown me that some pigs are more equal than others. 

NAMs are coveted?  By whom?  Maybe by a Marine, but hey he gets to wear the same medal as the Sailor that ran the command MWR/Navy Ball car wash for the weekend! 

WCOG said...

Blame my lefty parents but whenever I see people prying into the consensual sexual exploits of others it makes me kinda sick. Even if said relationship was verboten, prejudicial to the good order and discipline, etc. etc... I don't know. I suppose I'm not command material or whatever, but if they had already broken off their affair, how was death by elephant a superior solution for the navy if it means losing their expertise and experience/potential experience? There's a titilation factor for affairs between superiors and subordinates (like the plot of a romance novel) that makes me suspect that we do this kind of ritual humiliation for perverse enjoyment rather than as an example to others. We've been steadily cashiering sailors and officers involved in fraternization incidents for awhile now, and it seems to have no deterrent effect. Perhaps a different approach is called for? I humbly submit to your outrage...

UltimaRatioRegis said...

KM,

Methinks the motivation to fraternize has little to do with wrapping the mind around anything.  It is somewhat lower than that, just below the water line. 

Such has been true since our existence in caves.  As has the body language that follows the signal-response paradigm that transcends anything worn on collar or sleeve. 

Which is why, since they insisted on co-ed warships, then senior person has got to be held absolutely most accountable for anything improper.  

The impetus is on Big Navy to investigate thoroughly, and not employ the "ready-shoot-aim" method so prevalent these days.  They don't want that headache?  Too damned bad.  They signed up for it.

DeltaBravo said...

It's not outrage you'll get here, but puzzlement as to what you think ignoring these breeches would accomplish.  Fraternization rules are to stop a whole lot of other secondary ill effects, like favouritism or the urge to protect the beloved at the expense of others' lives.  Consider giving an order for a dangerous task or mission... does the CO send his beloved (male or female) into the line of fire...?  A choice that may be influenced by affection more than the diverse accomplishments and talents of the subordinates from whom he must choose.


(See...I wrote that in flowery language like those romance novels.  Adds to the drama, dontcha think???)

In short, consensual sexual exploits of others on a ship or in a command don't always have the consent of everyone else who must suffer the fallout when romances break up, when enmities and rivalries arise, or when choice promotions and glowing FITREPs are given to some but not others.   Moreover, if the beloved is misbehaving in other ways also (not being rule followers) it is difficult to take it up the chain of command when the next level is the sailor's prime fan club.  Ships rely on mutual cooperation and camaraderie, which can be torn asunder by "consensual sexual exploits of others". 

DeltaBravo said...

Oh, and if the CO had been caught padding travel expenses but had stopped, should it be overlooked when it comes to light?  What other infractions of the rules can be overlooked after the fact just because it had stopped? 

If the leaders can't lead by example, there's a good Italian saying that comes into effect:

Il pesce odora dal capo...

The fish stinks from the head on down....

SouthernAP said...

WCOG,

It is even worst if today you and your boat friend other don't get detached for cause, while DB and her boat friend do. That has just as many tongues a wagging because then it is a question of whether or not you (or your boat friend) had advanced/been awarded that NAM/given that superior command collateral duty because you had been a friend of either the CO/XO/DH. Which only leads to more bad blood when eval time comes around and both of you score in the top three of the EP category.

It is that whole apperance of a double standard, which only seems to get the fur up in most humans beings. So the rules were written in an attempt to lessen those hurt feelings (deserved or not); however, they failed miserably to take in the account of perception and 100% of the world's humans fail to take in how they perceve an event is what really causes the issues or hurt feelings.

WCOG said...

Thanks for your WTF DB. To be clear, I'm not saying we ignore these problems, or that fraternization doesn't have serious ill effects, because it does. I'm suggesting that we not go straight to expulsion as a first resort. Look, I get that my views are what's wrong with modern society these days (why, in my day we'd have put them in a longboat and flogged them 'round the fleet!, and we hanged the sodomites and goat rapists from the yardarm) but more severe punishments are often not the best way to get results. Just my two cents.

Furthermore, just because the guy's eventual fate involved a DWI and then NJP for conduct unbecoming doesn't mean he was a *complete* s#!tbag; that EVAL could be telling the truth.

QMC said...

Well, this will do wonders for the Sampson's operability and crew morale.  At least it's relatively junior officers and enlisted.

Now, imagine it's your OPs officer, Supply officer, SOY, and few other random assorted folks.  On a salvage ship with a crew of less than 100.  Yeah, that was a lot of fun for me, showing up just in time for Insurv followed by Fraternization Busts followed by quick-and-dirty Change of Command on the fantail.  Fortunately, the two ensigns who had to take up the slack were both the sort you'd be unsurprised to see go really really far-or at least as far as it is possible to go in a closed-loop community.

QMC said...

I'm curious what the classmates who knew her well thought of her.  Longtime hose-hound doing the same thing she did in Annapolis, or naive country waif overawed by the big city and done gone astray?  Seduced, if you will, by ship smell, galley food and lots and lots of travel.

WCOG said...

DB, we punish rapists and murderers more severely than we punish theives, right? I guess it depends on your priorities: if the purpose of regulations is to exact revenge upon the guilty then the most severe punishment is appropriate. If the goal is to create a superior fighting force then maybe some finesse is called for.

John said...

PO1 got what he deserved. No sympathy at all for him.

I just hope that Ms. Ensign's non-punitive letter will be followed by appropriate punitive action via courtsmarital.

Perhaps she was only acting as she thought was proper, based on the myriad double standards and rampant sexcapades at USNA in recent years.  But, failure of that institution is not an excuse for compromising the necessary good order and discipline in the fleet.

However, all this goes back to the core issue of mixed gender warships, and if that helps or hurts readiness for combat at sea.  If it fails that test, then getting high marks for matching decaying civilian social behavior is meaningless.

Kingsley Browne said...

Maybe I'm missing something, but why is what the ensign did not only worse but way worse than what the PO1 did? I thought that in matters of fraternization, the higher-rank was viewed as the more culpable party. Would the justification for separation of the PO1 be that he had a prior DWI? Is there ANY possibility that if the ranks had been reversed the female petty officer would have been separated from the Navy?

cdrsalamander said...

Kingsley!

Good to hear from you again - and you bring up a very good question.  For the first part - the officer is always in a position of greater responsibility and needs to be held to a higher standard.  As for what would have happened if things were reversed - well - that would be an interesting research project and the FOIA would be exceptionally hard to get through.

LT B said...

Hey Kingsley!  Of course she is not treated the same as a 'he' would be. 

LT B said...

It was punitive. It ended up in her record it said. 

Anonymous said...

Officer punishment goes like this:  get punitive letter.  Appeal same.  Letter goes to NPC, with a receommendation to show cause for retention or not.  Regardless, for fraternization and as a probatioanry officer 9less then 5 years), she will probably be required to show cause and will almost certainly be told to leave and pay back some serious dollars.  This process takes anywhere between 6 months to a year.  Just because FC1 thinks she got off light, doesn't mean she did.  This is the same for ANY officer, having been through this process with multiple officers of both sexes for several offenses.  Every one, MALE or FEMALE left the Navy.

DeltaBravo said...

I allowed that he may have been smart and technically adept.  But the sum total of a person isn't their utility to the task at hand. 

And if losing your career isn't an incentive to not fraternize, what would be?  They knew the rules when they signed up. 

You don't need to be rude.  I didn't answer in outrage.  I answered in puzzlement.  (I did NOT use the phrase WTF!)

DeltaBravo said...

Well, what priorities does a ship have?  Keeping afloat, keeping the sea lanes open, air ops and war fighting.  The purpose of regulations is to keep the focus on the good order and discipline and safety of the ship and its personnel.  Sending those who refuse to follow orders home is not punishment for the sake of punishment, but ridding the environment of someone who refuses to follow orders.  Once you let people pick and choose which orders suit them, where does that go?  How much finesse do you need when people sign up knowing the rules and defy them?   It's not about "love will find a way" and the "heart wants what it wants."  Probably more like "forbidden fruit tastes great."   Do you create a superior fighting force by introducing and looking the other way and letting people pick and choose which rules and UCMJ codes apply to themselves?  Does introducing lots of "drama" onto a ship create a superior fighting force?  Does an officer becoming the source of jokes and disrespect behind her back because of her notorious behavior matter?   How many strikes do you want to allow people to defy rules and create hostile working relationships on ships? 

11B40 said...

Greetings:

It never ceases to amaze me how the gift of philosophical acuity descends on perpetrators after their discovery and punishment.  

WCOG said...

Okay, DB, you win. I get that things are the way they are for a reason. That's not going to stop me being disgusted by investigations like this but I guess that's just the way things are.

DeltaBravo said...

I agree that investigations into unsavory behavior take on the taint of the subject matter. 

SouthernAP said...

Guest,

However, while all that is going on that Ensign still gets to wear the uniform and still gets to draw a check. Meanwhile the FC1 is told "Thanks for playing GI Joe, but here is your last pay check and have a nice day" while at the gate of the base; all within 30 days of, but no more then 90 days, of the NJP. Do you think he might have a bitter taste in his mouth, because of that apparent injustice?

Kristen said...

Maybe she was naive and easy pickings.  Or maybe LT B is right and what she learned at the Academy is that there are two distinct sets of standards, and that women are not held responsible for their choices.

Kitsap CPO said...

I have always enjoyed reading your blog, until now. Referring to enlisted personnel as "The Help" in just completely unsat. I guess you just one in a long line of officers who think they are a better class of people.

Kristen said...

Guest, I sure hope you are right about all of that. 

Kristen said...

A quick observation from a wife's point of view:  If fraternization isn't taken seriously and punished, it has a very dramatic impact on morale here on the home front.

DeltaBravo said...

Exactly!  And when everyone "lives at the office" in close quarters the rules need to be more stringent and the penalties for violating them sure and forthcoming.

SouthernAP said...

Chief,

Your way off base. Read the quote again that is being referenced, I know it is taught at CPO Intitation.. I mean CPO Intergration... or whatever the newest PC term is for CPO selectee training is this year.  The same principle, that is one who is a leader doesn't sleep with the worker bees that work for them. If you can't grasp that what the good Cdr S here is trying to say, that this young lady and this whole ship (the USS Sampson) didn't understand that a PO1 doesn't date an deck seaman, that a CPO doesn't sleep with a PO2 and a DH doesn't date that newest Ensign in thier department; it all stinks of that little understood and constantly trained on thing about fraterization.

Old Farter said...

On a different note, the guy made E6 in 5 yrs? Do FCs still get advanced right out of school?

cdrsalamander said...

Kitsap,
That is simply not true.  You must not be a Southerner.  That is a phrase with a very long history with a very broad meaning.  It is shorthand that you should never have s3x with those who work for you.  There is an unequel power relationship that is abusive to your subordinate and creates a corrosive relationship with the other personnel under your authority as it imparts favoritism.  

In Southern culture, it also has follow-on paragraphs that involve the results of such activity - and the responsibilities the entire family must now take.

You know my opinion of Enlisted personnel - they guest blog here all the time.  You take offense sir, when none was offered.  "Help" can be officer, enlisted, civilian - for the record.

cdrsalamander said...

Kristen,
She was not naive.  She was a young woman from one of the most demanding institutes of higher learning in the world.  She was also a Commissioned Officer.

Easy pickings?  Perhaps.  

Some day I will tell you a story back in '92 about a LTjg in Rota that gave me a ride ... wait ... nevermind.  I won't. 

Anonymous said...

It is per the manual for courts martial and the MILPERSMAN.  NJP for officers is 99.9 percent of the time a career ender, and in this case, she will likely get a bill for S150-200K for her education. 

Boat School Grad said...

So, anyone want to place a wager on how fast this becomes an issue in the newly integrated sub community?  I am amazed at how easily the male/female sexual dynamic is discoutned by the brass in their decision making.
Now if only the bulkheads on those USNA YP's could talk!

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

Speaking as a Badger, I would say that the current batch of youth don't think that the rules apply anymore.  They are under the impression that the rules that have governed successful civilizations for thousands of years were wrong, and that thier ways of thought, as presented by the modern educational system, and the entertainment media, are the enlightened and correct way to behave.  

C-dore 14 said...

When I read the line about the "...coveted Navy Achievement Medal..." I knew that this reporter was pretty much clueless about the Navy and what really happened here.  Our former PO1 obviously recognized it too and fed him the stuff about the CO being angry at him for appealing his punishment, implying that was why he was administratively separated while conveniently leaving out the concept of "...pattern of misconduct..." involving two major offenses.  Nice touch to include the part implying that the female Ensign will get off somehow because her father is a Captain.  Would like to explain to the article's author about how little power an O-6 has with "Big Navy".

As for our young Ensign, the Guest who comments below has it right.  She probably received a Letter of Reprimand or Admonition and is marking time until the "show cause board" and the bureaucratic wheels at NPC crank out her separation letter and pro-rated bill for the cost of her education.

C-dore 14 said...

@Kingsley, As I posted above, I'm guessing that the PO1 was administratively separated for a "pattern of misconduct" established by his DUI and fraternization offenses.  Back in the day, immediately after NJP for his DUI he would have been required to sign a Page 13 adminstrative warning cautioning him that subsequent offenses could lead to admin separation.  One of the readers here who is currently serving can tell us if that's still the case, although I assume it is.

C-dore 14 said...

WCOG, Got to jump in here.  The Navy is probably better off with this guy gone regardless of his technical ability.  He's had two major offenses (a DUI and Fraternization) in a two year period and lied when initially confronted with the latter one.  He's certainly not the first good performer who ignored the rules in hopes that their technical ability and a good story would get them off.  Used to see it happen a lot with guys caught using drugs in the days when discharge wasn't mandatory.

cdrsalamander said...

C-14!

With both you and Kristen back in comments, I feel like there is balance once again in the force! .... and you comments are right on tgt, thanks.

cdrsalamander said...

Actually Scott - I have a lot of faith in the young men and women coming on board.  Some have issues - don't we all - but all in all; I'm glad I'm not competing with them.  Good batch methinks as long as they have the right leadership.

MR T's Haircut said...

me thinks we should NOT allow seperation for fraternization.... we should demote, and force them to live with the consequences and serve as an example in the ranks... separation is an easy way out...

butch said...

Go on ...

SouthernAP said...

C-dore,

Right now with the right sizing that is going on with in the fleet a DUI can lead to an immediate seperation for cause in the ranks. Even more so in the E-6 and below ranks it is usually a career killer to get a DUI because typically your next eval will be an immedate "Significate Problems" eval being filled in your program jacket, a Page 13 entry (for those non Navy readers this is like a "Final Notice" bill from a creditor) stating that they have achieved a DUI and one more will lead to an involuntary seperation from service. Also, NPC/BuPers has been asking for inputs from the fleet with regards to those who have a DUI, there has been no statue of limitations with regards to this event. So if you got a DUI back in 1996 while a brand new minted Ensign celebrating your pinning in P'Cola then it was forward to NPC. In turn NPC has been advising the fleet to either prevent retention of these folks or outright telling the commands that this person needs to be seperated in the next few weeks.

QSPN said...

Remptant sexcapades at USNA?

Lobotomized said...

Best to get rid of him.  We are paying him as a PO1 but we can only use him in a PO3 or maybe a PO2 billet.  Waste of money to keep him around and he will never be eligible to advance to CPO.

Anonymous said...

LOL, if you think the only women available are in the military, you're wrong.  I can't even count the number of married guys cheating in port.  Contrary to popular belief, relying on the law to pretect you from a cheating husband is stupid.

Anonymous said...

Don't worry, he doesn't think poorly of minorities either.  I wonder if the guy was black?

DeltaBravo said...

Of course it's not a guarantee to keep spouses in line.  But a guy whose moral compass is off may think twice if his/her career could be messed up too.  For someone with much to lose, it might weight the scales in favor of the angel on his/her other shoulder. 

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Kinda hard to demote an Ensign.  Maybe move her back to bottom of the year group two years before her commissioning.

FDNF Squid said...

Probably a push button, caught an EP twice and was able to take the PO2 and PO1 exams a year early each.

Anonymous said...

Makes me wonder what the women do while the men are away.  If she's relying on the law to keep him from straying, that has to say something about what she's doing with the law to protect him.  I love it when the spouses cheat, and the military guy gets thrown out of his on base housing so she and the kids can live rent free after she's cheated on him.  Aww good old Family Resource Center.

DeltaBravo said...

<span>"Makes me wonder what the women do while the men are away."</span>
<span></span>
<span>The wives I have known... most of them... sitting in the Emergency room with the kid that decided to break his arm/leg/foot the day daddy shipped out, fixing busted pipes in the kitchen, shopping, doing ALL the driving for soccer/dance/school/music activities, cleaning the house, taking care of the yard.... you get the point, I'm sure....  </span>
<span></span>
<span>I agree completely there should not be a double standard and any woman who cheats when her man is out should pay a price too.   </span>

Anonymous said...

Well said Kristen.  I think that is truly a piece that gets lost to the civilian world.

Therapist 1 said...

In the medical/therapist's world we talk about the "power differential" between the therapist and his/her client.  If one violates that, it is a predatory act and should be dealt with severely.  Although it is not the same, the power differential is there and can have an incredible affect on morale and perceived promotions or other perks.

Therapist 1 said...

oops, that was me.

Surfcaster said...

Sucks greatly but it usually is not the kids fault. And they are the ones that often pay.

Keeping your junk holstered prevents many multilevel order of effects.

While at times funny, my dad's "Hundred miles from the Flag Pole" was still wrong, and today with the innernets everywhere is a no-escape-zone.

Warrant Diver said...

Chief

when I put on khaki's and anchors my CMC told me not to sleep with the help...it's a common saying...stop looking for excuses to be offended. You're a Chief Petty Officer in the US Navy for God's sake. Toughen up.

QMC said...

I don't know that I would agree, but there would be a sort of poetic justice involved in transferring the two lovebirds to opposite coasts.  And it's only fair, since they didn't spend their six month deployment separated from their significant other.

Kristen said...

Grandpa, too funny.

Kristen said...

I was just thinking the same thing - seems like forever since I've seen C-dore's name.  C-dore, you've been missed!

Kristen said...

Well, I should be more specific.  I'm liking your second sentence.  I don't really want to hear from the talking bulkheads.  :)

Kristen said...

CDR, ohhh myyy.  Sounds like one of those stories that you'd have to warn me away from, so I guess I'll never find out.  ;)

Kristen said...

Thanks, Therapist.

Byron said...

Absolutely nice to see both of you back!!!!

NAnoymous said...

From what I've seen, if someone is not promoted to O-2 with their YG, like will happen to her, there is an administrative board to determine whether the Navy should keep the person.  I know someone who was in the same situation and they were separated from the Naval service within the year.  Not getting immediately kicked out has nothing to do with her being the offspring of an O-6 or a female.  The commanding officer can't just kick out an officer through NJP.  The punative letter is the most severe punishment that an Officer can receive.  Our CO had to explain this sort of thing at an all-hands meeting recently because this is something that a lot of people just don't understand.

FDNF Squid said...

Fraternization must be dealt with harshly once all of the facts are in. It is a f...cking cancer on a ship, even if it is just perceived.

No surprises there....

One of my friends relieved me as an LCPO and was sleeping with a Sailor in the division, guess what happened to both the moral and performance of that division as a whole? The CoC didn't act quickly (as opposed to what SAMPSON did) and people had to work in that environment.

Don't sh1t where you eat.

Don't sleep with the help.

Listen to the big head, not the little.

Takes two to tango.

FDNF Squid said...

Bad idea since PERS is cutting bodies, that POS FC1 downfall is helping someone stay in the Navy. The ENS better start rolling pennies to pay back the Gubmit for that education!

cdrsalamander said...

T1!  Glad to have you in the mix too!

SouthernAP said...

Realistically her sea daddy or rabbi or whatever is the preferred term should advise her to for the good of the service and the order take a powder and drop a resignation package just to keep from wasting everyone's time. Will or has that happened? Only the flies on the wall and the gods know the truth.

LT B said...

I am not certain she will have to pay back the Navy for the academy gig.  Did Eckel?  I mean, if they toss you out for non promotion, that was the Navy's choice.  I bet she won't pay a dime. 

LT B said...

I have heard wives voice that concern.  Yes, Sailors have cheated on their spouses, and we will see that again, but to say that putting males and females together does not offer a greater chance of that and another stimulus away from mission focus is just a lie.  Furthermore, you may see that it isn't the sex that is the worry, but the cohabitation, and time spent at sea draws the males/females closer and there becomes an emotional linkage that the wife can not emulate as the Sailors actually spend more time together.  That may be what the spouses are more worried about.  The emotional cheating vice just the sexual cheating.  It happens in the university research ships too.  There is WAY more drama in mixed gender crews then an all male crew.  True story.

MR T's Haircut said...

lighten up Francis...

LT B said...

Wing One evidently is the place to be. 

Former Navy said...

Rampant Sexcapades at USNA ?  I hadn't heard ...

Back when I was at USNA, Playboy, Penthouse or some other magazine ran a story on the biggest college sex scandals....USNA had a few in the top 10...everyone was shocked until they realized a USNA "sex scandal" is an everyday occurence at civilian college.

I disagree with anything that smells of a double standard, and punishment for the Ensign should have been more severe than the PO1. However, I think the explanation is pretty clear -- pattern of misconduct ADSEP v. lapse (or total failure) of judgment.

I also disagree with any suggestion that the Letter of Reprimand be followed by punitive action like a courts martial.  The skipper took the action that he felt was appropriate, and some flag above shouldn't second guess and impart his judgment now that this has been made public.  That sounds a lot like the CAPT Honor's scenario, and this type of double jeapordy is just plain wrong.

Kristen said...

Hey there, Byron!  How's my favorite Cajun doing?

DeltaBravo said...

I thought I told him to go back on vacation and not come back till he brought shrimp gumbo for us.  That's with the BIG SHRIMPS, Byron.  Not those puny little shrimps.  (Is big shrimp and oxymoron?)

C-dore 14 said...

@Former Navy, No double standard here just the difference in bureaucratic time delay involved in the case of a PO1 and that of an officer who received a $150,000 college education and holds a commission in the name of the President.  The end result will probably be the same with our young Ensign being ADSEP'd and receiving a bill far in excess of the fine that the PO1 recieved.  Let's not forget that we only have the PO1's "spin" on what happened to his former girlfriend as well.  Those of us who know the system (unlike this reporter) realize that both parties went to Mast and apparently received the maximum punishment that an O-5 is authorized to award.

Likewise, it would be impossible to follow up the CO's NJP/Letter with a court martial unless another charge developed, which appears unlikely.  The CO took disciplinary action as he saw fit and, although his CSG Commander (whom I assume is the first Flag in the chain) might not like it the latter's hands are tied.  That's certainly what the Admiral's SJA will tell him.

Actus Rhesus said...

is the E got NJP and ADSEP, the O gets served with a Court-Martial, with the option to go quietly by waiving her board and getting shown the door at no expense to the taxpayer.  That's the reccomendation under Rhesus law.

Actus Rhesus said...

sure there is...revoke her commission and make her finish her ringknocker obligated service as a blue shirt or pay back her educational expenses.

Actus Rhesus said...

or the wives are already in precarious marital situations and project that insecurity onto any female in a 20 meter radius of their spouse.

Cannot tell you how many delusional shrews have been CONVINCED I was spending every work hour finding new ways to flirt with their spouse.

a. I don't flirt.
b. Even if I did...I have higher standards than that.

DeltaBravo said...

C'mon, AR... be nice.  "Delusional shrews" is harsh.  While they may not know you and your high standards, apparently they have a complete grasp of their husband and his tendencies.  Why is she "delusional?"  Because he may have come home and spent a little too much time talking about you at the dinner table, quoting the last funny thing you said, or every funny thing you said, or mentioning your name once too often a day, or taking a little too much care in his appearance before he left for work, something he long ago stopped doing for her.  Since you don't know what she sees on her end, you don't know that she is indeed delusional.  As for the shrew part... a cheating or semi cheating spouse does not tend to bring out the sweeter gentler side of a woman.

I'm with Lt. B.  There is an intimacy in the workplace that a wife is cut out of.  Add war and danger and the normal uniting of buddies in battle, make one of them a she, and you have the recipe for the kind of life at risk, romantic intimacy the wife at home with the kids and the dirty laundry, overheated car, sick dog and checkbook overdraft cannot compete with. 

I also completly understand your position.  I don't want someone else's cheating husband either.  A man who leaves his wife for his mistress leaves a vacancy.  You or I may not be among them, but there are PLENTY of women who have no scruples when they see the wedding band on a man's hand (if he even wears it when he's away from the house.) 

So there's lots of blame to go around and throwing a bunch of people together in a ship at sea for 6 months is asking for drama that will play out at sea and reverberate on shore for a long time to come. 

Everyone loses.

Latent Infantry NCO said...

Wow. 3 NAMs and 5 promotions in 5 years. He even got a deuce out in town and apparently no NJP? On top of that, he nails the new officer, lies about it in the midst of a shipwide investigation of fraternization and gets what I would consider an incredibly lenient NJP so HE APPEALS IT?!?!?! What?!?!? I have had some pretty good streaks in my day but this guy just didn't know when to quit. Did he really think he still had a shot a golden chevrons with two hashmarks after his appeal? Apparently so. Maybe red just wasn't his color.

My admittedly neanderthal beliefs on co-ed forces have been posted before but now I can see that sex integration does have at least one benefit: It gives narcissistic, judgment lacking, blue falcon morons a chance to expose themselves despite their incandescent auras and SRBs full of cheap attaboys and chincy promotions. And, none of his shipmates had to lose their life in the process. =-X  In my MRE-addled mind, I'd say the ship, the Navy, and the taxpayer scored a net plus on that fact alone. And technically, the E and O had already scored so I guess everyone goes home a winner. OK, I'll quit now.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

You just got yourself an AMEN from the Ground Combat congregation!!!

I would love to add something to it, but cannot.  You stated it perfectly.

Battle-mindedness.  Maybe the cure for these idiots, and all who think this to be minor, is an instant ticket to foot patrols all over Helmand Province.  Except that I wouldn't endanger the lives of Marines by inflicting these imbeciles on them.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

That's what the USMC does, on occasion!

DeltaBravo said...

I'm weeping because I didn't write this.  Darn you're good!

SouthernAP said...

NCO, so your saying we should have given him this patch for his latest award?

DeltaBravo said...

We need to give NCO a chair on the porch.  He needs to come back and share some more. 

Anonymous said...

About as perfectly stated as any post in recent memory.  Another way to phrase it is...AMFs.  Good riddance!

sid said...

I sure am glad the USN is all about waging and winning Wars At Sea...

Grandpa Bluewater said...

My goodness that was done well.  Well done.

DeltaBravo said...

If Navy women could control themselves and maintain a professional work environment, Navy men wouldn't be such a problem.  Takes two to tango.

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

She said, He said.
There's no proof at all. None at all.

She accuses, he denies. No actual evidence.

She goes to the hotline and IG.  All stop while we warp and twist.

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

For Christ's sake you cannot even spell out sex? Tab M into Slot F. However did you get through celestial nav with HOMO TO? Sheesh.

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

Correct sir. She should be kicked out instantly but there are considerations it seems. Her dad is a navy captain by reports. She may have refused mast which is her right now as an afloat crewman. She may be awaiting the complicated, hateful process of a Court Martial which any sane sea officer dreads and rightly so. Mast is, to the accused, a 5 minute process.  Court Martial is a 16 month process not including appeal. On the other hand, perhaps she opted for it. I've seen nothing that says she accepted mast but I haven't looked.

Salty Gator said...

THEY HAVE RETURNED!!!!!!!

Welcome back to AR, C-14, Gramps, T1, MTH, Kristen, QMC!  

VR,
SG

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

Missed that she accepted MAST.  regrets.

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

DB,
You never ever offer to ask what others think really. You just run for the porch when answered. Fraternization rules have zilch to do with loved ones or favoritism per se. They mostly have to do with a higher command perception that such relationships are tantamount to sexual slavery. We won't have that. In most/almost all cases we hold that the senior in the relationship held power over the junior and is held to blame. Sex was coerced. I think we all know just how bogus that idea is yet it remains the standard.

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

DB,
The Colonel's daughter is not off limits to anybody and rank and rate has nothing to do with it. She's a girl and he's a guy and she chooses who she wants to date.  Has zilch to do with girl officers in the navy and dating enlisted men. That's a no no of the first water. Don't do it. How simple is that? Here is a simple rule. Don't date enlisted crew if you are an officer. Why does it take MAST and Court Martials to keep that rule so many many times? I choose to think that we have commissioned some seriously stupid officers. Double for male officers stupid enough to blow it all off and date/abuse junior personnel, officer and enlisted.

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

WHAT?

You always make me laugh out loud.

OTH, never saw anything improper about boys and girls liking each other enough for sex to follow. The girls will seek any advantage and the boys will seek any advantage. There are simple ordinary rules that have existed for over 30 years to deal with the male female relationship as applied in the navy and other armed forces.

It remains a pity that we don't apply them equally.

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

not so. 2 went down the wrong road. If one is toast, so too should be the other one.

bistromathematician@gmail.com said...

on her back?

Grumpy Old Ham said...

<span>I mean, if they toss you out for non promotion, that was the Navy's choice.  I bet she won't pay a dime. </span>

I'm not so sure about that.  Back in the 90's more-or-less after the first "Peace Dividend", a bunch of USAF types wrote letters to promotion boards asking not to be promoted, so they could get passed over and tossed out without having to pay back various kinds of bonuses (usually rated retention bonuses, but I also heard of cases involving repayment for educational benefits).  Either USAF or DoD changed the policy after a couple of cycles so that if non-promotion was due to (probably misquoting) "a deliberate act by the member", any repayments that would otherwise be waived due to separation would come due.

I have no idea if this policy is still in effect -- perhaps one of the regulars still wearing the uniform could chime in.  If so, ENS "Looking for love in all the wrong places" might be in a world of hurt.

Grumpy Old Ham said...

<span>You just got yourself an AMEN from the Ground Combat congregation!!! </span>

...and one of those damned Chair Force types, too.  Wisdom for the ages, it is...

C-dore 14 said...

@NCO, You got it right.  The appeal of his NJP is no surprise since he, unlike the clueless LA "Times" reporter, knew that with a previous NJP and an admin warning he was on his way out.  Heck, in his shoes I'd have done the same thing myself on the one in a million chance that the CSG commander was clueless too.  Now he's just trying to embarrass everyone.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Thank you kindly.  Actually, I never left.  Others were saying everything I wanted to, first. H/T Byron, DB and etc.

I was there! said...

You kind Sir, have hit the nail on the pervebial head!  That's exaclty what's going on with the junior officer.  Of the five, only one remains onboard the ship, initlally there were 3 Petty Officer First Classes and two ENS involved.  Upon dicusssing the issue with my division officer, several officers of the wardroom knew what was going on and implored the pair to knock it off before being caught.  Too bad they didn't listen.  Of the 5, three of them are left, a now Petty Officer Second Class who had knowledge of the incident yet failed to report it and the two ENS's who are awaiting the Navy's final disposition.  This is a thing of the past onboard SAMPSON, we've changed our focus to preparing the ship to becoming a qualified assest in preparating for our upcoming deployment.

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