Tuesday, September 13, 2011

Gardasil: From Farrah to Rick to Michelle


When one of the formative figures in 'ole Sal's youth passed last year, I almost posted something on this - almost.

You see, there is something to be said for letting at least a year pass until you find some tangent on the pre-mature death of a good person. Tragedy should be allowed to fade before you use it to make a point.

There is no question, Farrah Fawcett died too early, and she was as much as anyone is - a good person. There was a wider lessons for everyone, especially parents, in her death. It isn't an easy subject from a variety of angles, but I'll try to cover it as best I can because she left us a gift if we want to open it. She intentionally let the subject sit there if we wanted to take it up. I will.

Farrah fought a very difficult and very public battle with cancer. Not just any cancer though, but anal cancer.
A risk factor is anything that affects a person's chance of getting a disease. Although the exact cause of anal cancer is not known, most anal cancers seem to be linked to infection with HPV (human papilloma virus).
...
About 8 out of 10 squamous cell anal cancers are caused by either HPV-16 or HPV-18 -- the same types of genital HPV that cause cervical cancer.
How you get HPV is well known.
Genital HPV is spread mainly by direct genital contact during vaginal, oral, or anal sex. It is not spread through blood or body fluids. HPV is passed from one person to another during skin-to-skin contact.
In a fashion, most cases of anal cancer are in effect the result of infection with an STD; for you old school types; VD.

This is a growing problem - one very much under the radar. I would recommend you talk to your dentist about what they have seen a dramatic increase in since the Clinton Administration. Imagine the challenge of telling women in their late 20s who don't smoke that they have oral cancer.

Now you see why it is difficult for some people to talk about rationally, and in the paragraphs that follow you will figure out the title of this post. Unlike many virus caused STDs, there is a way to protect yourself and those you love from the possibility of being infected with most types of HPV and as a result - help prevent cancer.
At this time there are 2 vaccines available to help prevent certain types of HPV and some of the cancers linked to those types: Gardasil® and Cervarix®. These vaccines prevent the 2 types of HPV (HPV-16 and HPV-18) that cause 70% of all cervical cancers.

Gardasil also protects against the 2 types of HPV (HPV-6 and HPV-11) that cause 90% of all genital warts. The other types of HPV will not be prevented by use of vaccines.
How effective? Dr. Henry I. Miller offers his experience,
In the extensive clinical studies (on more than 20,000 girls and women) that were performed prior to the FDA’s licensing of the vaccine, the vaccine was 100 percent effective, a virtually unprecedented result. How safe is the vaccine? No serious side effects were detected; the most common side effect is soreness, redness and swelling in the arm at the site of the injection.

In summary, Gardasil has one of the most favorable risk-benefit ratios of any pharmaceutical.
The HPV vaccine has made its way in to our political discussions, so let's bring it here. Early on in his Governorship, Rick Perry did the following;
... (in) 2007 when Republican Rick Perry became the first governor in the country to order young girls to get a vaccine against a sexually transmitted virus that can cause cervical cancer.
...
Perry, who long defended the vaccine mandate, reversed his position on the issue as he launched his GOP presidential bid, calling the order “a mistake” and saying he agrees with the Texas legislature’s decision to overturn it.

“The fact of the matter is that I didn’t do my research well enough to understand that we needed to have a substantial conversation with our citizenry,” Perry told reporters on the campaign trail in August.
Can we really fault him for this? Some of the most ignorant things have been said about this - mostly from my side of the political spectrum.
The vaccine would encourage promiscuity, according to many conservatives, who had long supported Perry’s views against abortion and same-sex marriage
....
(Bachmann) “It’s very clear that crony capitalism could have likely been the cause” of the HPV vaccination program.
The Left has already taken that thread up ... but not the worst,
"I had a mother last night come up to me here in Tampa, Florida, after the debate," recalled Bachmann.

"She told me that her little daughter took that vaccine, that injection, and she suffered from mental retardation thereafter. It can have very dangerous side effects. … This is the very real concern, and people have to draw their own conclusions."
Both charges, of course, are beyond stupid - and Bachmann just moved from the dog house to the rabbit hutch.

Gov. Perry has defended himself just fine to both - which he really shouldn't.

Let me tell you my path on this subject - one I went through a few years ago. The elder Wee Salamander was "of the age" to start the vaccine while she was in a DODS-affiliated school. You know DODS schools and their vaccines. Though I am generally a fan of vaccines, this caused me pause. Why? Simple, I knew what it is for. Who wants to think of their 10-yr old and .... THAT?!?

... but I also know this; I had to be an adult about this. I needed to think, not emote. Before I know it, she will be an adult woman and hopefully I will live long enough to be blessed through her with grandchildren. All good things in their own good time. Life is what it is and she will find her way through it - and frankly - I think it would be irresponsible to not protect her as much as I can, while I can.

It is the duty of a father to strip emotion away and work on fact. The fact is - and Perry talked to those dying of HPV caused cancers before he took the action he did - this is a preventable cancer for most sufferers. The method of catching the virus should not matter - we know how to prevent almost all infections.

If anything - Perry should be praised if not for his methods, then at least for his judgement.
... Perry was simply before his time: Across the country, 2007 was actually a turning point for legislation that requires, encourages or funds HPV vaccinations. Forty-two states considered HPV vaccination legislation in the 2006-2007 legislative session, and 20 passed laws, according to the National Conference on State Legislatures. Among them? Bachmann’s own Minnesota.
This cancer kills. There should be no stigma to talk about it. Don't even think about throwing the "innocent" vs "sin" angle either. You can do that when you fix your own sin.

To those who still don't understand, let me try this.

Every year - and all year if you buy the stuff at Costco and put it in the pantry - we see a shower pink for Breast Cancer Awareness and fundraising. What if we had a vaccine that prevented almost all kinds of breast cancer? What type of person would not support that? Would you stop your daughter from getting that vaccine if the probability of best effect was when they got vaccinated in their pre-teen years? Really? Not just the personal costs - but the billions spent in out nation on the medical costs? Really?

A pox on everyone who is trying to use this as a political weapon. A pox.

298 comments:

1 – 200 of 298   Newer›   Newest»
DeltaBravo said...

As a Perry fan and a mother in Texas, I have to say I was against the vaccine.  For several reasons.  First of all, I didn't think it was tested enough.  I respect other parent's rights to give it to their daughters, but I didn't want my kids to be guinea pigs.  And there have been some catastrophic reactions to it.  Plus, I felt it gave a false sense of security by protecting against 2 of what?  25 or so different HP virus strains?  Also, viruses mutate.  And it only targeted girls.  Why not vaccinate everyone?  Since boys can be carriers too.

I didn't like the idea of an untested mandatory vaccine like that.  Lots of Texas parents didn't.

But here is the difference.  How Perry handled it.  I trust his heart was in the right place.  With a nurse as a wife I'm sure he's heard of horrible situations of medical suffering.  I don't doubt his intentions to protect. 

But when he was made aware of that, he did a brave thing for a politician.  He admitted he may have been wrong and approached it wrong.  He backed away.  The vaccine became optional. 

He didn't redouble his efforts to shove a bad idea upon his constituents when they let him know what the voice of the people said.

So he was wrong, but he was right in this situation too.  I think some of the others in the debate don't quite understand that from the point of view of this mother, he raised an issue.  It led me to research it and I was allowed to exercise my own judgement as a parent.

cdrsalamander said...

Fair.

kmadams85 said...

In all the articles about how "effective" these kinds of vaccines are, I rarely if ever have seen discussion of prevalence for the disease to be prevented.  A proper evaluation of risk requires that the people making decisions understand both the impact and the probability of occurence.  Just once, I'd like to see a "news" article take that approach.
Our family chose not to get the Gardasil vaccine for our daughter in middle school.  New Jersey has not yet mandated it through law, although they do pressure people through regulations and communications.  In my mind, it should be a choice each family makes, not a mandate by the state.  
In the presidential debates, this issue should have been over and done a long time ago.  The candidates are all trying to play gotcha over who said what and when, rather than having a discussion of the salient issue.  They should be asked a question like the following.  "The people, via the Constitution, have not given their federal government the right to mandate medical procedures.  As president, would it be your policy to prescribe medical treatments for individuals or targeted groups of individuals?  If so, why and under what authority would you promulgate regulations to that effect?"

Douglas said...

While I'm a Perry supporter, I'm also very critical of him on the Gardasil issue (though I think he apologized, and that should be that. I'm VERY dissapointed in Bachman over this).

That said, the Gardasil issue has gotten me thinking about what I see as a larger strain in recent history. Since the end of WWII... and especially since the 60's... man has used science as a way to be able to indulge in his basest desires and beat the consequences. The antibiotics revolution led to a new era of sexual promiscuity in the late 60's. The pill led to to even more chucking aside of old moral rules and codes. Age gracefully? Why, we have plastic surgery and all manner of hormone therapies now. Boomers were the first generation to truly try to be young forever.

Why be good (in the socially moral sense) if you don't have to?

The problem is that it seems every time man pats himself on the back for our ingenuity in beating God's social nasties, something worse seems to take the place of the previous nasties. Penicillin was no defense against herpes. And is anyone really surprised that AIDS, a disease tailor made to be spread by sex,  took off at the end of the era of sexual "liberation"?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't give your daughter Gardasil. That's between you and your better half, and no one else (espcially not a governor or legislature or courts).

But while you're doing it to protect her, I can't help but think that most girls will go "I've had Gardasil... why worry?", and then the NEXT big nasty comes along.

Bottom line, it sure seems to me that those stodgy old codes Moses & Company have handed down over the years have not only a moral but a practical purpose, if you want to put it that way: protecting us from our own follies. The next time we come up with a penicillin or AZT cocktail or Gardasil, perhaps we as a people shouldn't be so quick to laugh off the Almighty and declare that we don't need his rules anymore. Gardasil could, unfortunately, become just another reason we think we can "beat the system".

DeltaBravo said...

Reminds me of an old saying... God always forgives... people sometimes.... nature never.

Retired EDO w/Daughters said...

Hi, I made sure that both my daughters got the vaccine.  It just makes sense.

And after all, they are their mother's daughters . . . . . 

James said...

Here is the thing. People push things. One day its this and everyone says OK but not that. The 5yrs later its another and another. Pretty soon you have what we have now.

The freaking bubonic plague, TB and other bygones poping up again because people wont get the shots.

Ever seen a person who delt with Small pocks? I have i've also seen the results of the poor dosing done in the late 30-40s. But not as bad as SP.

James said...

Why? Well there are a few. HPV is also one of the leading causes of throut cancer in men (yep down there we go).

Also if your daughter is going to act like a whore...........she';s probably going to act like a whore anyways. Acting that ways hows inmaturity which affects most all decissions. Plus there is AIDS/HIV along with dozens of other venerial diseases that would still be a threat.

The outbreak of crap in the 60's all the others......it wasnt science that caused it. It wasnt the Pill. It was people and society. Our society went to a ship because the people acted like immature idiots and gave us a wonder variety of Super VD's.

James said...

Or god is our loving father and will always love us even when we fall.

People can be really amazing.......but also dicks.

Nature is a cold heartless bitch that has been trying to destroy all life for around a few billion years. She will use any weapons includinf chemical and biological. She preffers to commit genocide but ones and twos is fine also.

Always wondered why hippies and yuppies and such see nature as beautiful and peaceful.......any country boy knows the truth.

Mike F. said...

I now seriously question whether I can vote for Perry and it is due to this issue.  I don't care about his good intentions.  He thought it was appropriate to use the power of the state to force this on the citizenry.  If a child coughs or sneezes in a class room and thirty kids then become infected, you mandate a vaccine for that.  Short of that infectivity level, you make the vaccine widely available, maybe state subsidised and then you use your bully pulpit to endorse and encourage the living crap out of it.  His backing off and offering an opt out was due to pushback from the citizens and from the legislature not because of self examination.  He heaped mounds of vitriol and abuse on the legislature for daring to push back and never went back to make amends.  That mindset coupled to the power of the presidency isn't good.

DG said...

Douglas,

You are 100% correct. It is important for us to allow God to punish your daughter because she married a guy who had caught HPV because he messed around in college. That he later became deeply religious - like your daughter - shouldn't matter. Instead, she should get cervical cancer and die an early and painful death to enable God to punish her for bad taste in men and to punish her husband for his fornication, and to punish her children - your grandchildren - for something. I'm sure they did something wrong. Right? /snark

My religion teaches that God doesn't punish children for the inequities of their parents, nor punishes spouses for the offenses of their husbands or wives. Yet clearly, that is a direct impact of HPV. I understand that your religion - because thats what we are talking about - has a retributive element. Mine does too, but also teaches that all of the Law must be put aside to save life. That its not for us to judge whether that life is deserving - thats a decision WAY above our paygrade.

"<span>"I've had Gardasil... why worry?" - really? REALLY? because my teenage daughter will ponder the horrible consequences of cancer, 20 years down the road? She has trouble processes the consequences of actions that may occur 20 minutes down the road. We've got to do our best to teach our kids right, but lets be realistic.
</span>

DG said...

Sir, the aspect of this that critics miss is that there is a strong "innocent victim" element to HPV. And its not a corner case and not an exception. Plenty of women get it from their spouses, with both in a monogomous relationship. Baggage from the past. Baggage that kills you.

Actus Rhesus said...

Can I just say I find it interesting we are debating the importance of a vaccine which, though DB correctly points out does not erradicate ALL HPV strains, is proven effective against at least some known cancer causing ailments, all at the same time the government, in furtherenace of reducing medical costs and viva-la-obamacare, is telling women they don't really NEED pap smears until much older.

For fucks sake.  Does anyone else see this as mildly frustrating?  The right won't vaccinate our girls because jebus doesn't want to encourage tehm to have sex...appparently ever, and the left doesn't want to let us screen for cancer.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Glad you agree.

Grumpy Old Ham said...

<span>"Just once, I'd like to see a "news" article take that approach."</span>

Not gonna happen, because doing so eliminates the ability to sensationalize the report.

"Doing XXX *doubles* your risk of YYY!!! Stop doing XXX *RIGHT NOW*!!!" never seems to be accompanied by "...and your risk of YYY is only 1 in 10 million, so if you decide to do XXX you now have a risk of 1 in 5 million of YYY", because that doesn't make for a good story.

Yet the fourth estate wonders why their credibility is on the decline...

Byron said...

Actually, this right winger doesn't like inocculations enforced by LAW.... It smacks of police state, nanny state, the pee-pul don't need to think, we'll think for them. Do I agree that a strong program of education backed by a free to very low cost of injections is a damn fine idea? Oh hell yes. It's just the part about not having the choice in the matter that pisses me off.

John said...

Great explanation of a difficult issue.

It confirms in my mind that Perry is a thoughtful guy who wants to do the right thing, and is willing to admit mistakes.  All rare qualities in the political species.

Now, if we could just get him fixed on his immigration policies, I'd be with him 100% instead of 90%.

Bachman's exploitatoin of unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence to attack Perry over this dumped her out of contention on my list.

SouthernAP said...

GB,

This is a lib vs conservative thing because the liberal idea of we need to do something to protect our children from dying a horrible death from what could be a preventable disease and the feeling that conservatives which don't like to get the government involved in personal decisions.

Yet, at the same time we have some liberals such as those from Hollywood use a faked medical report try to prove that all vaccines are dangerous to children and we should build up a natural immunity to them naturally. Which is an off-shoot of environmentalism and quackery medical since it believes that we should only natural/homeopathic methods to cure or control diseases. We also have conservatives who feel that we should do something on a whole to protect the public from what our science has told us could be conqured.

I have spent some time studying this vaccine issue and seeing that just like 9/11, UFOs, Atlantis, or the Bermuda Triangle there are "truthers" out there trying to push their own agenda. You also have to be very careful how far you choose to go down the rabbit hole with this discussion before your mind starts to hurt from the logical fallacies and questions of how many angels are on the head of a pin.

I will leave you all this note as well, ever since this lady started her crusade against vaccines, we have seen in the industrialized world (and the USA specifically) a rise of diseases that in my youth of the early 80's modern medicine was talking about eridicating like measels, whooping cough, and rubella. So think about that for a while over the beers. Are you all that afraid of vaccines that you want to put your children or g-kids at risk to a preventable disease because of "truthers"?

Stu said...

<p><span>Perry vetoed a law that would<span>  </span>have outlawed texting while driving saying that such legislation was a “government effort to micromanage the behavior of adults.”<span>  </span>Yet, he previously supported forced inoculations of children against STDs.<span>  </span>Bizarre thinking especially when you consider the fact the government owns the roads we drive on.<span>  </span>But the best evidence that Perry was wrong on Gardasil is that he admitted it himself.</span><span> </span></p>

Stu said...

continued...
<p><span>When “dash 6” was recently born, Mama and I were confronted with some new procedures at the base hospital which required the application of antibiotic ointment to junior’s eyes in case Mama had an STD as well as a megadose of Vitamin K injected so that they could circumcise ahead of the normal 8 day waiting period.<span>  </span>We of course ran them off on the eye ointment even with their continued suggestion that it’s just a safe measure.<span>  </span>After that, I laughed at how many of the nurses commented how the youngster’s eyes were so clear and how he was already tracking people coming into the room.<span>  </span>Of course he was, we didn’t allow them to needlessly smear a bunch of goop in his eyes.<span>  </span>But the Vitamin K was more interesting.<span>  </span>Again, we told the docs that we weren’t going to allow the Vitamin K shot and got peppered with all sorts of pleas about safety and such.<span>  </span>At one point, the young LT Doc asked if I would read the clinical findings on it because it has been found that having the shot reduces hemorrhaging by 50%.<span>  </span>I said sure and took a look.<span>  </span>When you actually look at the numbers, you find that without the shot there are 6 cases of hemorrhaging in every 1000 but with the shot it goes down to 3 out of a 1000.<span>  </span>Sure enough, 50% reduction.</span></p>

DeltaBravo said...

It's difficult to do immigration like many want when you're in Texas.  In Texas, Mexico is "family."  It's a border region.  You can't round up millions of people and stick them in buses and split up families and ship people to CartelVille on the other side of the border to meet with the atrocious safety situation there and not look like... well, like a Nazi rounding up Jews.  Can you imagine the tv coverage? 

They're here.  They're often related to people already here.  They come here because it sucks there.  A better long term plan would be to make "there" not so sucky. 

Until then you have a dilemna... educate the people who have been residents (legal or otherwise) so they can be productive members of society, or grow a criminal class. 

He's been begging for federal help to control the border for years  The state can't do it all alone.  It's easy in Massachusetts or Iowa maybe to second guess it.  But unless you live here you don't get that borders everywhere in history have been notoriously fluid and the population there is always mixed.   Fences can be jokes... climb over, tunnel under...  false sense of security. 

The question is do you tell the kid who was brought here illegally when he was 5 and is moving toward citizenship that he can't further his education?  Or do you make him a full blown citizen with some gratitude toward the state that gave him a home and an education to let him prosper. 

For those who think we need to round up 10 million people and ship them south.. think of the logistics of kicking in doors, using our what?  Military?  to put them in trucks... shipping off la madre when her two sons are serving in Afghanistan and Iraq?  Or one whose son may have died serving our country?   (Yes, things like that happen.  Travesty.) 

There has to be a better way than all the solutions presented so far. 

DeltaBravo said...

Well, one could say outlawing drunk driving is a gummint attempt to micromanage the behavior of adults too.

It's a safety issue when texting makes you as bad a driver as downing a six-pack.

Since adults and teens have proven for a decade that they can't drive and text at the same time, it's not a bad idea.  I'm way more likely to die at the hands of a texter behind the wheel than HPV. 

andrewdb said...

I agree with you that it makes little sense to only vacinate girls.

Former FC said...

From what I understand the vaccine is only effective on young females. 

Former FC said...

I don't think Perry made a mistake in requiring this, but I think he made a mistake in saying it was a mistake.  Out of all the Repub candidates he is the one I like so far, but only tepidly I'll probably just write in Colin Powell again since "none of the above" isn't an option.

I regard vaccines as a Good Thing that parents should not be able to opt out of, since the health and safety of the child over rides any "rights" they have to ruin that childs life through either their ignorance or being misled n(often dilebrately) by religious groups, political groups or wack jobs who think vaccines give children autism. 

bistromathematician said...

I don't actually think that I'll discuss the shot and effects with my little girl. It will be like the MMR and so many other vaccine shots she endured growing up even before she could talk. It takes a heartless ignorant jerk to fail to protect his children against known cancers that can be forestalled and totally avoided.

I can't believe it is a political matter.

Stu said...

"since the health and safety of the child over rides any "rights" they have to ruin that childs life "

Careful what you ask for.  

Kristen said...

It's a thoughtfully written piece, CDR.  I have some sympathy for the governor.  I don't agree with the mandate, but I appreciate that his intentions were good.

Not expecting a lot of agreement, but I'm going to share what ran through my mind when I read this and read the comments.

That picture of Farrah Fawcett is from...what?  The 1970s?  I'm guessing that in its day, it was considered pretty risque.  Today, it's absolutely tame.  Today, we have hosts of popular military blogs writing approving posts about Colombian beauties flashing their vaginas in public, followed by all kinds of bravos from the readers.

Our popular culture has fallen off of a cliff.  Television shows, movies and music glamorize the kind of behavior that may have cost Farrah Fawcett her life.  Department stores sell suggestive clothing for little girls, and mothers buy it.  As other commentators have noted, there are a whole lot of sexual diseases out there that can't be cured.  If we don't start pushing back against the culture, medicine isn't going to be able to save us from the consequences of our own behavior.

Stu said...

Nothing more attractive than a modest woman.  Those that feel the need to show the "goods" often don't have much more to offer.  Kind of like seeing a movie preview that leads with all of the funniest parts from the whole movie.

CDR Salamander said...

Kristen;
FWIW ... note the day of the Colombian post.

Look at some of the pre-code silent movies and the syphalis infection rates in the 20s-30s and Victorian London. We could do better; but off the cliff?  No.

Be careful how you frame the debate as well.  Review the STD stats from the CDC.  Most of the problem is in the Bible Belt and Red States.  Claimed "morality" has little to do with this. This is a health issue - not a morality issue.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats04/womenandinf2.htm

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

I make a lot of Right of Way violation stops from texters crossing the center line into oncoming traffic.

I want one of these, by the way.
http://www.fedsig.com/products/296/vision_slr

Watch the video, very impressive.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

I didn't know you were from Tarsus IV!

Grumpy Old Ham said...

<span><span>I make a lot of Right of Way violation stops from texters crossing the center line into oncoming traffic."</span>  
 
In other words, it sounds like you are enforcing a law already on the books regarding adherence to traffic controls -- having another law outlawing texting while driving would only allow you to write up an additional citation for the same act.  
 
When someone says "there ought to be a law..." these days, my first inclination is to ask "Isn't there a law already on the books which would apply?  If so, how will adding another law prevent the same behavior?"  
 
Adding additional laws just for the sake of "having a law" is what I consider micromanaging the behavior of adults.   The ultimate effect is a gradual breakdown in respect for the law, since there are so many that are enacted in response to special interests.
</span>

Jessie Thompson said...

I agree completly with CDR. I have a daughter to old to get the benifets of this vaccine but if she could I would git it for her. Some day she may marry a person who has been exposed to the HPV and be contaminated with it. I know this is a possibility even though she is not engaging in sexual activity.
Now as far as the vaccine ccausing a girl to become sexually active is full of bunk. Girls and boys even before there was legal abortion, birth control or any thing else have enguaged in sex. If that was not the turth there would not be an abortion law now. Before there was anything for HIV/AIDS youngesters and oldsters alike enguaged in sex and many girls caught it (a woman is more likely to catch AIDS from a man than the other way around). Now how many would prevents thier childern boys or girls from a vaccine to prevent AIDS. None I hope. Yet dose the possibility of catching aids STOP them from engaging in the risky behavior? If it did the AIDS PROBLEM  would be over with in a few short years when all that had it died off. But there is still new cases now.
Think about your child's life. This is not a morality thing. That is something that is taught and caught from their parents.

Stu said...

No...it's a morality issue.  Just because people profess to be Christians, it doesn't mean they are meeting the standard.  The Church is a hospital ward for sinners and unfortunately sin both makes you stupid and ends up hurting you. 

Stu said...

As a parent, I support you making that choice for your child. 

I'll take care of my child. 

Jessie Thompson said...

Most of the problem is in the Bible Belt. Yes, it is and that is because those there don't think that their children would do any thing to catch the STD. What they don't stop to think about is in to days socity almost all enertainment is design to stemulate the sex drive. A young person, boy or girl, can and have be caught up in this situation where they have been stimulated and it got to far for them to stop so over the clif they went.
<span>I think what Kristen was trying to portray by the OVER THE CLIFT remark is that socity including the parents are pushing the girls and boys to a lessor degree to ge sexual. Unless that push is turn around to stay pure before and after mararage then STD will win out.

<span>Kristen</span><span>View details</span></span>

Bubba said...

<span>Vaccination is generally considered to be the most effective method of preventing infectious diseases. It is you or me baby, I choose me.  Line up and get your shot. </span>

Salty Gator said...

Bubba, we are talking about sexually transmitted diseases here, not whooping cough.  If you are worried about your child failing to control himself, that sounds like a personal problem.  Personally, I would vaccinate my child.  But I would not force anyone else to do so.
Your talking about shooting people who disagree is disgusting.  And only a liberal thinks of the polis as a "herd." 

Bubba said...

Excellent point.  People will choose family over government every single time. 

Open the border; let the market set the price of labor. 

Salty Gator said...

"oh Jebus!  Save meeeee!"  - Homer Simpson

Salty Gator said...

EDO, WOW.

Bubba said...

<span> </span>In Florida, if you have Tuberculosis we will lock you in a hospital just like the prison hospital next door.  If you are cured, we’ll let you out.  No jury trial, just a hearing before a Circuit Judge.  Our methods have been determined to be constitutional by the United States Supreme Court.

<span> </span>No one has the right to spread disease.    

Bubba said...

 <span> </span>Is "liberal" shorthand for people we don't agree with? "Liberals" are those whose philosophy is rooted in a belief in freedom of the individual. Anyone who rejects science is not a liberal; you may want them to be liberals, but without a respect for the scientific method, you can't call someone a liberal.

<span> </span>Your nameless blond bimbo ain't no liberal.  “Progressive,” maybe, but she is not a liberal.   

Bubba said...

It is called "science."  God gave us the gift of reason. When we use his gift, we draw closer to him. 

Stu said...

Bubba, you assume "reason" is always on the side of the government.  I'm quite confident the government types can use your reasoning above to come up with all sort of mandatory measures in the interest of safety. 

Stu said...

Get your own shot and worry about you.  I'll worry about me.  I choose me and don't care about your choice.

Grotopotamus said...

Concur 100% w/ Cdr Salamander. And, for those w/o access to the PDR, etc:
How has Gardasil been studied?
There were four main studies of Gardasil, involving a total of almost 21,000 women aged between 16 and 26 years. Gardasil was compared with placebo (a dummy vaccine). The studies looked at how many women developed genital lesions or warts that were due to HPV infection. The women were followed up for around three years after the third dose of the vaccine.

Additional studies looked at the ability of Gardasil to prevent infection with HPV types 6, 11, 16 and 18 and genital lesions caused by these HPV types in almost 4,000 women aged between 24 and 45 years, and at the development of antibodies against these HPV types in around 1,700 girls and boys aged between nine and 15 years.

Grotopotamus said...

What Benefit has Gardasil shown during these studies?
Gardasil was effective against precancerous genital lesions of the cervix, vulva and vagina, cervical cancer, and warts related to HPV types 6, 11, 16 and 18.

Looking at the results of all four studies together, out of the more than 8,000 women vaccinated with Gardasil who had never been infected by HPV types 6, 11, 16 or 18 before, one woman developed a precancerous lesion in the cervix that might have been due to HPV type 16 or 18. In contrast, 85 of the more than 8,000 women who received the placebo vaccine developed lesions that were due to these two HPV types. A similar effect of Gardasil was seen when the analysis also included lesions of the cervix due to the other two HPV types (types 6 and 11).
For external genital lesions due to HPV types 6, 11, 16 or 18 (including warts and precancerous lesions of the vulva or the vagina), the results of three of the studies were looked at together. Two women out of almost 8,000 in the Gardasil group developed genital warts, and there were no cases of precancerous lesions of the vulva or the vagina. In contrast, there was a total of 189 cases of external genital lesions out of almost 8,000 women in the placebo group.

The studies also showed that Gardasil provided some protection against lesions in the cervix linked to other cancer-causing types of HPV, including type 31.

The additional studies confirmed the ability of Gardasil to protect against lesions and HPV infection in 24- to 45-year-old women. The studies also showed that the vaccine stimulates the production of sufficient amounts of antibodies against HPV in girls and boys aged between nine and 15 years.

Grotopotamus said...

What is the risk associated with Gardasil?
In studies, the most common side effects with Gardasil (seen in more than 1 patient in 10) were pyrexia (fever) and reactions at the site of the injection (redness, pain and swelling). For the full list of all side effects reported with Gardasil, see the Package Leaflet.

Gardasil should not be used in people who may be hypersensitive (allergic) to the active substance or any of the other ingredients. Patients who show signs of an allergy after a dose of Gardasil should not receive further doses of the vaccine. Vaccination should be postponed in patients who are ill with a high fever.

Grotopotamus said...

Huh, should've started w/ this first. And, BTW, this is info from the EMEA (European Medicines Agency) - they tend post different info than the FDA.
What is gardasil?
Gardasil is a vaccine. It is a suspension for injection that contains purified proteins for four types of the human papillomavirus (types 6, 11, 16 and 18). It is available in vials or prefilled syringes.
What is gardasil used for?
Gardasil is used in patients from the age of nine years to protect against:
precancerous lesions (abnormal cell growth) in the genital area (cervix, vulva or vagina) and cancer of the cervix that are caused by certain cancer-causing types of the human papillomavirus (HPV);external genital warts that are caused by specific HPV types.

Gardasil is given according to official recommendations.

The vaccine can only be obtained with a prescription.

Grotopotamus said...

and no, i don't work for Sanofi, just trying to set the record straight on some slightly erroneous info below...

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Calm down, gentlemen.  It will eventually all come down to public health law.  There is an unfortunate idea running around that immunization risks are unacceptable because of the link to autism.  It's been studied and over studied, and the link does not exist.

One can be sensible about it and research the data and wait until the FDA approval comes out, the outfit is off the chart conservative about preventing vaccination and immunization approval until the
labyrinthine process is complete. This is a very unresponsive bureaucracy, which is a good thing.
You have to go through channels.  Much better than by executive fiat.

There is room for the option to refuse.  Herd immunity is real enough, but you don't flash to pandemic when you cross a tenth of percentage point.  No reason to go to daggers.

Stu said...

Completely reasonable Grandpa. 

BTW, I'm not a big immunization guy for two reasons (neither of which center around the autism fear).

First,  I'm just not big on injecting my body with all manner of "stuff."  I'm an educated adult and given the facts, I can make the decision. 

Second, some immunizations are products of aborted stem cells.  I'm simply not going to use any such product for moral reasons.  My health isn't going benefit from the immoral death of another.  Again, my choice.

Grotopotamus said...

"...products of aborted stem cells".  ????
which ones, please - I would be more than happy to do the research for you, if you are concerned about any in particular.

I can tell you this - To make a vaccine, you have to replicate virus by inoculating a cell that is susceptible to the virus, and this MAY be done in human cell lines. The cell lines used as "expression systems" are very well researched, very well regulated, and are probably older than you and I (a good read: The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks - about the discovery of the first "Immortal cell line" obtained from... wait for it... cervical cancer cells probably due to HPV).  They do not come from aborted fetus stem cells, not only would there be yucky ethical questions for a company, it would just introduce way too much variability. And, recently with the focus on baculovirus, they are coming from insect cells, but that's a whole 'nother post...

SouthernAP said...

Bubba,

That nameless blond bimbo is Jenny McCarthy. She has self-identified herself as liberal and progressive in her own words. However, with regards to this topic she is in my mind a luddite. Do a bing for Jenny McCarthy and anti-vaccine and you will literally get hundred of thousands of hits. I was just noting the bipolar-ness of both sides of the political aisles. Since they are either for group vaccines or against it, either for a law mandating it but against providing government assistance to pay for it, either for vaccines (or medical science) or against the advances made to this point because natural sciences are better then man-created sciences. If not natural sciences or they believe there is some giant government conspiracy in conjuction with the grey aliens and the MiB (who actually did 9/11 and Pearl Harbor and have both Elvis and Earhart) to destroy our precious bodily fluids.  I would also note that the same sort of fight has come out at the local levels when various cities or even county water systems talk about flouridation and chlorine introduction into said systems. There are folks who would rather risk tooth decay and risk bugs in the water then authorize the cities/counties/PUD's to raise taxes 1/10 of one cent to pay for the system. Then everyone acts shocked, shocked I tell you! When a bug gets into the water and starts to kill or make sick people, if not that then wonder why they are forking over arm/leg/first born to pay for repair of thier teeth cause those teeth have been rotting out.

For as many people that have claimed I am, by being right of the political aisle, anti-science; it amazes me even more well educated folks who should be able to research a topic like this on their own be such luddites.

CDR Salamander said...

This also has nothing to do with Christianity.  For the record, as a group - the most "moral" people (as you define it) my daughter goes to school with are Muslim and Hindu - just about tied with the Orthodox Jews.

Bubba said...

God’s gift of reason tells us all men are created equal, that they are endowed by God with certain unalienable Rights.  It is to secure these rights that governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Bubba said...

I know who she is.  I was respecting your choice to leave her nameless.  :-D

Bubba said...

I don't follow her blather enough to know how she identifies herself, but I do think you do the luddites a disservice by pinning their name on her.  

Smashing the steam looms was a rational response if you were a hand weaver. If the frames were taking your job, breaking them makes sense.  The blond bimbo is not rational.  Poor things, now they have to be compared to a dumb topless model. 

Why insult the luddites, wasn't the industrial revolution punishment enough? 

Stu said...

You brought up the "Bible Belt," not me.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

"<span>Open the border; let the market set the price of labor."</span>

That include MS-13, Latin Kings, Middle Eastern men of military age from Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, etc.? 

Colombian and Mexican drug cartel assassins? 

Trafficers in cocaine, heroin, marijuana, fissile materials, bio agents, chemical agents?

Kristen said...

Stu, modesty is pretty devalued right now, but I think the pendulum can swing on that.

Stu said...

<span>Oh dear...do I detect a bit of condescension?  Had this same talk with a Navy doc who took the same tone as you.  He ended up apologizing to me after doing his homework.  Now I will say that I did inadvertantly used "stem cells" when I meant "fetal cells."  This is common knowledge and the manufacturers do not try to hide it.  HEP-A is one such vaccine, though recently an ethical version became available outside of the US.</span>

From the Havrix insert...

<span><span>Havrix (Hepatitis A Vaccine, Inactivated) is a noninfectious hepatitis A vaccine developed and manufactured by SmithKline Beecham Biologicals. The virus (strain HM175) is propagated in MRC</span></span><span><span>5</span></span><span><span>human diploid cells. After removal of the cell culture medium, the cells are lysed to form a suspension. This suspension is purified through ultrafiltration and gel permeation chromatography procedures. Treatment of this lysate with formalin ensures viral inactivation.</span></span>

<span>MRC-5 was developed in 1966 from the lung tissue of a 14 week aborted child.</span>

Kristen said...

CDR, I understand your point.  I just don't agree with it.  To respond on the micro level, women who showed their vaginas in public would have been arrested in Victorian times and during the 20s and 30s.  I'm going to stick with off a cliff.

On the macro level, people in red states are marinating in exactly the same toxic cultural influences as people in blue states.  I think that our culture, which aggressively pushes promiscuity, influences individuals to behave immorally.  I want to change that.

Vaccines like this one are sticking a finger in the dike while the water rises and rises on the other side.  If we don't start lowering the water level by reclaiming the culture, no amount of vaccination is going to save us from the flood.

Kristen said...

Stu, I don't know your religion but in Catholic terms we would say that pornography, promiscuity and abortion contribute to making a culture of death, where human beings are treated as objects.  Believing Catholics can disagree on this vaccine, but believing Catholics also have a responsibility to work to change our culture into a culture of life.

Kristen said...

Jessie, not sure what KristenView details means.  I'm suggesting that repairing our culture will protect us better than STD vaccines.

Kristen said...

Bubba, your last two sentences made me laugh out loud.

Stu said...

Kristen,

I'm as Catholic as they come.  I don't disagree with anything your wrote except that you left out contraception.  

CDR Salamander said...

Bubba, URR - back to centerline.

Kristen said...

Jessie, sorry, the light finally dawned.  Were you checking my profile?  My details are that I'm a wife and the mother of three small children.  I was born and raised in the Los Angeles area and graduated from UCLA.  I'm a Catholic and a conservative Republican.  I get the Air Force point of view from my husband, the Army point of view from my brother-in-law, and the Navy perspective right here on the porch.

Don't know if we have anything in common.  If not, feel free to disagree with me anytime.  :)

Kristen said...

Had a feeling you might be.  :)

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Then, if we are going to talk about Farrah Fawcett's ass, can we at least talk about the outside instead of the inside?

CDR Salamander said...

Fair.  For the record - at least in that respect - she was a bit too bony for me.  Just a bit.

Grotopotamus said...

aborted fetal cell line from 1966... not an aborted STEM cell line (i can tell you know it's a different beast, and a different hot-button issue), and not "harvested" for the purpose/hope of finding an immortal line within which to cultivate virus which would eventually prevent disease in thousands of people. Nobody would be able to predict that the line would survive, and would serve such a purpose.
Point granted to you, Stu - the science is the science.
But I don't get it - the act of some soul back on an operating table in 1966 prevents you from getting a vaccine that has a proven record of safety and efficacy because you would be, in some belief, cooperating with the abortion. Your choice as an adult, but I just don't get it.

Anonymous said...

To Delta Bravo - 

<span>I won't address the rest of what you said in your response - but I was an Army Recruiter in Brownsville (just across the Rio Grand River from Matamoras, Mexico) Texas back in the mid 80's.  </span>
You couldn't join the Army,  or any of the Armed Forces unless you could supply a notarized birth certificate from a US State or Territory,  or documentation from the INS (can’t remember the form number, but there were two that we would accept) that stated that you were in the U.S. legally. Sure the kids could have been anchor babies (I saw that too) but I also saw a number of families that jumped through all the hoops the INS wanted so that they could be in the U.S. legally.  ,
One of these days,  I need to tell the story of the English guy,  married to the daughter of a Hispanic,  retired Air Force Senior NCO - that had to jump through all kinds of hoops to immigrate into the U.S.,  that I put into the Army,  (Ranger Battalion Contract) just in time to be a part of Desert Shield and Storm. He was a journeyman stained glass artist that was going to use the military as a way to accelerate the process of becoming a U.S. Citizen: He as a nice young man,  with a very supportive wife and In-Laws.  
Cheers!  
Grumpy Old Badger

Sean said...

My small New England town about 8 years ago had an incident where the local school simply ignored the legal requirement for vaccination due to the parents not wanting to have their child vaccinated.

The town medical health official resigned.  He had some strong words about parents ignoring vaccinations for common childhood contagious diseases but his strongest condemnation was for the local school officials who somehow put the rest of the community's children at risk due to someone deciding that the rules (legal and of contagious diseases) somehow did not apply to them.  And then thinking that somehow this would not come out...(good grief - what did they think that the town health official did at the beginning of the school year?  He checked to make sure that everyone was vaccinated and found the discrepancy in about 5 seconds flat...).

It was a public health issue.  And eventually it was treated as such.

Stu said...

It fruit of an immoral tree.  

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

There is another Badger on the porch? HUZZAH!

UltimaRatioRegis said...

I see one of my clients showed up in your sidebar, Phib.  

'Bout time.  Tired of all the ghey servicemember dating sites.

Bubba said...

Thank you, that was what I was trying for. 

Stu said...

Nice thoughts, Bubba.  But they don't translate into the government always having the proper approach. 

Anonymous said...

Wow. talk about an infringement. If Rick Perry tried to inoculate my daughter I would tell him to shove it...another fine example of big government "Knowing what's best" for you.
provide me with the pamphlets and the information, but forced vaccination is horseshit.

Oh BTW...anyone realize that Perry's Chief of Staff at the time was a Merck lobbyist prior to assuming that CHief of Staff position...do you know what he did after he left that position: Merck lobbyist.

This is NOT in the interest of public safety. it is a case of an idiot abusing his power and overstepping his legal rights.

HPV is not a threat in the same way that, I don't know, measles is, or even smallpox back in the day.
Would you be ok if Big Government assholes told YOU to get an AIDS vaccine..HELL NO, so tell me how this is any different.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

My shot card is as long as your arm, so is my wife's and so are my grown daughters'.  My grown daughters ensure their kids get all applicable and required, as well as any new, once safety and effectiveness is established by the FDA.  None the less I acknowlege the (tiny) risk of side effects exists.

There is no free lunch. There is no absolutely safe course of action. We haven't had any vaccine tragedies and won't have any lack of vaccine tragedies; we have had others of various types, we coped.  With God's help, we will avoid most and cope with the rest.

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The exact record of how these Australian winter season sheepskin boots came about is lost in the mists of time.?What is well-known is that they have been worn by Australians since European settlers 1st arrived on the huge island continent and uncovered that their cold feet could finest be warmed by sheepskin footwear.?Whoever the 1st individual was to don a pair, he or she started off an Aussie trend pattern that would be perpetually enduring.

Australians like the out of doors way of life, and Aussie surfers and beach front lovers have been sporting wintertime sheepskin footwear for perfectly around fifty yrs on the seaside, as a way of holding their ft warm even though out of the water.

The name ugg boots is derived from that renowned Aussie tradition of lovingly abbreviating every last typical use phrase, and it was only a short skip from "hideous boots" to very seriously "ugg boots".?Ugly as they had been perceived at the time compared to even more standard put on, there was no beating these Australian uggs boots for warmness and comfort.

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