RADM Dussault may be the most fair, balanced, professional, and performance driven officer we have in the Navy. But ... appearances matter - and this appears like a biased mindset based on sex.
... if you were a front running Junior officer who simply happened to be born XY vice XX, and you were in a highly competitive group setting up for the next career milestone and half your peer group were XX - how much confidence would you have with RADM Dussault come FITREP time when she led a panel on;
Barriers to Entry: Advancing Women into Key Leadership RolesSad thing is - as regular readers know there are few people in the Navy blogosphere who have been greater supporters of women serving than your humble, ahem, blogg'r. Many of the regulars disagree with my stance, but that is OK, friends can disagree and still break bread.
Rear Admiral Kathleen M. Dussault, Director, Logistics Programs and Corporate Operations Division, United States Navy
With that reminder - the fact that RADM Dussault would put herself in a position to allow the appearance of gender related bias as clear as this makes it completely understandable for any male junior officer to call in to question her impartiality.
I wouldn't work for her - and would advise other males to fight tooth and claw with their detailer to stay clear out of her way. Just like Skippy and I would agree that there are certain Flag Officers who people should have avoided in the last decade for other reasons - they are openly biased and are allowed to get away with it.
If there is an appearance of bias - more often then not there is one. I would offer to RADM Dussault that she remove herself from that panel and instead come out with a strong statement on a performance based advancement mindset. Perhaps she doesn't realize the message this sends to male subordinates. As I will give her the benefit of the doubt - I would guess that no one would tell her that, and she thinks it is fine. Well, I just did, and it isn't.
Hat tip M.
165 comments:
Sal, you missed the Work-Life Balance for Driven Women panel. I never had one of those. Unfortunately, life is about hard decisions. Career verses family issues are not gender specific, granted one side of the fence has a more physical part.
This typical feminazi stuff. Those who are involved don't see the damage they are creating. There are many in the protected classes who are doing there jobs well and without preferential treatment. Maybe they should celebrate those advances rather than the "insert protected class" agenda.
She's not a real Admiral - she's Supply Corps!
"Barriers to Entry: Advancing Men into Key Leadership Roles"
"Barriers to Entry: Advancing Blacks into Key Leadership Roles"
"Barriers to Entry: Advancing Asians into Key Leadership Roles"
"Barriers to Entry: Advancing Whites into Key Leadership Roles"
"Barriers to Entry: Advancing Hispanics into Key Leadership Roles"
"Barriers to Entry: Advancing Jews into Key Leadership Roles"
"Barriers to Entry: Advancing Muslims into Key Leadership Roles"
OK, Front Porch, for the next round (courtesy of our host, natch), which of the above is acceptable in today's environment?
For the Diversity Diktat: please explain, in clear and understandable language, why some of the above are acceptable, and others are not.
I am sure the Lance Corporal humping the base plate to the 60mm mortar around mile 22 is super-impressed with the "Director of Corporate Operations", the C-130 pilot, and the "Network Operations and Security Watch Officer".
Ditto the Sergeant Squad Leader whose Marines just spent 80 hours breaching walls and clearing buildings in the industrial area of Fallujah.
But of course, that isn't what the military is all about.
SEA FOAMMMMMMMMMMMM~!
Motion presented to the porch to change the metaphor from "drinking the Kool-aid" to "drinking the sea foam."
Do I have a second?
Follow-up motion to change lyrics of Anchors Aweigh to:
Anchors await, my boys, Anchors Await.
Farewell to career joys, you males don't rate your pay-ay-ay-ay.
Due to passed rights from shore, drink the sea foam,
Until you hit the door,
Here's wishing you a crappy voyage home.
<span>Rear Adm. Dussault assumed duties as the Director of Logistics Programs and Corporate Operations in the Office of Chief of Naval Operations (OPNAV N41) in March 2009.
Dussault returns to OPNAV from a six-month special assignment as director of Task Force 2010 headquartered in Kabul, Afghanistan.<span> </span>In this capacity, she developed an advisory and oversight team that incorporated the acquisition mission with the principles of counter-insurgency warfare.<span> </span>Prior to OPNAV, she served as the commander of the Joint Contracting Command Iraq/Afghanistan, headquartered in Baghdad, Iraq, and with 18 regional offices throughout both theaters.
Dussault graduated from the University of Virginia with a Bachelor of Arts in American Government, received her commission from Officer Candidate School in Newport, R.I., in November 1979, and graduated from Navy Supply Corps School in May 1980.
Dussault has served on <span>USS Point Loma</span> (AGDS 2) in the Pacific Area Launch Support Ship for the Trident missile program as supply officer; <span>USS Concord</span> (AFS 5) as the assistant supply officer during <span>Operations</span><span> Desert Shield</span> and <span>Desert Storm,</span> and as supply officer aboard <span>USS Seattle</span> (AOE 3) where she served as afloat logistics coordinator while deployed to the 5th Fleet area of operation.
</span>
Not to crap on anyone's tour to the Sand Box, but my eyebrow raised on calling her tour to Baghdad Supply as a "combat tour." Civillians get deployed all the time to Baghdad. Some of them even get guns. Most of them never clear leather. Is that a combat tour? It is definitely a war tour. But a combat tour? Did she get a combat action ribbon?
Words matter. You cannot be a two star and think that you can mince words. If you are going to call yourself a combat sailor, you better be ready to back it up...
Not to crap on anyone's tour to the Sand Box, but my eyebrow raised on calling her tour to Baghdad Supply as a "combat tour." Civillians get deployed all the time to Baghdad. Some of them even get guns. Most of them never clear leather. Is that a combat tour? It is definitely a war tour. But a combat tour? Did she get a combat action ribbon?
Words matter. You cannot be a two star and think that you can mince words. If you are going to call yourself a combat sailor, you better be ready to back it up...
Wow! Girlfriend knows how to shop! I hope she got Big Navy some bargains!
"incorporated the acquisition mission with the principles of counter-insurgency warfare."
I need someone smart to translate that for me. Does that mean she hustled the gravy, bullets and beans out to the front faster and more efficiently? Way to make the supply chain to the front sound glam!
(okay, my snark button is off. Navy needs Supply Officers too. My problem is when they start counting chromosomes to fill billets. After all, imagine the howls of outrage if they said "Only girls can be supply officers because they know how to shop for things and buy groceries and order stuff online." The backlash and charges of sexism would reverberate for months.)
Is "combat assignment" a matter of stolen honor? Perhaps. But, ladies and gentlemen, she is really as harmless as a "Daisy". A little computer forensics on her official U.S. Navy photo reveals that she has named it Daisy. "RADM Daisy Dussault on combat assignment in Iraq and Afghanistan - led the incorporation of acquisition mission in Counter-insurgency warfare." Nice opening line for her Defense Superior Service Medal.
Folks,
Let me step in here. There is nothing wrong with her record. She has a better than standard issue record for a Supply Officer of her generation. Her tours in Iraq and AFG are ligit combat tours. The most dangerous thing you can do there is get in a convoy going from pt A to pt B. She did that, and from all reports did very wel on her tours.
That. Is. Not. The. Issue.
"incorporated the acquisition mission with the principles of counter-insurgency warfare."
Does this mean purchasing supplies locally in order to build up the local economy? Or hiring locals to off-load the supply trucks? Or does it mean something else? Sometimes, when they drop in buzz-words, we lose any concept of what was actually done.
I wonder if there's anything published about what it means....
"Work-Life Balance" for that crowd equates into wanting all of the benefits while not putting in the same effort.
I wouldn't mind this conference if it was mentoring women on ways to improve their chances for selection, what goalposts to aim for, and the challenges they face.
But instead, it's thin cover for mandating quotas for selection. That's unacceptable.
Zero problem with her performance, but lots of problems with her goals now.
A good friend of mine worked for her at JCC-I in Iraq and she was awful to work for. This doesn't surprise me a bit.
give greenert AND roughead a pat on the back for not picking her to be chief of supply corps. i think she goes home next summer. hope that makes you boys feel better.
Seafoam, eh? I used a can of that to free a stuck lifter in my stroker, small block Chevy the other day. Maybe she could drink a can of it to free her stuck brain cells.
Go to the earthquake/hurricane discussion this weekend on the Sunday Funnies and read about "sea foam."
Financial Advise follows: Lay in a large stock of handbaskets and a few roadmaps to Hell.
I would mind it either way. Who the hell are admirals to decide when to selectively enforce equal opportunity? WTF is mentoring available by race, color, gender, ethnicity?!
I would mind it either way. Who the hell are admirals to decide when to selectively enforce equal opportunity? WTF is mentoring available by race, color, gender, ethnicity?!
not buying it. I'm NOT a combat vet, but that term "combat vet" applies to folks who have seen combat. I have not seen a single mention of a CAR in her awards description. Roger that on the perils of convoy travel. Have some USMC friends who did convoy travel who never got blown up, never got shot at. Have other USMC friends who did convoy travel who got blown up waay too often and shot at waaay too much. Guess which ones call themselves "combat veterans" and which ones call themselves IRQ / AFG "war veterans?"
Sal, you know that words matter. And in justifying "diversity" pushing billeting, the tendency is to cover your tracks by exaggerating proficiency and experience. She might be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But she is obviously a pusher of the Diversity realm, so is it really that far of a stretch to imagine her as a benefactor as well?!
Salty is correct. It's crap.
"<span>Her tours in Iraq and AFG are ligit combat tours."</span>
Dunno if that is true. I was under the strong impression that, while there is nothing specific in guidance, you could not call a tour in a combat zone a "combat tour" unless eligible for the CAR.
USMC (at least) FITREP guidance does not allow the phrase "THIS IS A COMBAT REPORT" in comments unless SNM/SNO is eligible for the CAR. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if the term "combat tour" didn't have special connotation, it would not pop up in her bio.
... again, not the topic of this post. I can't believe I am having to defend her - but you people need to ponder a little deeper.
If you were a Mess Cook on a destroyer in the battle of Midway - have you been involved in combat at sea? I think so.
If you were a MM1 (SS) in WWII and did two patrols that sank a few thousand tons of shipping, did you do a combat deployment? I think so.
If you were the SUPPO on a DD on the firing line off Vietnam when counter-battery fire from shore headed your way, were you in combat? I think so.
If you were a sniper who from your roof in IRQ killed a dozen armed insurgents from a few hundred yards who never saw you over the course of a tour, were you in combat? I think so.
When you were the weapons officer on a DDG that fired a couple dozen TLAMs towards targets in Iraq that destroyed millions of dollars in Iraqi equipment and killed dozens to hundreds of Iraqi draftees, were you in combat? I think so.
If you were a Logistics officer in Iraq where you and your fellow countrymen were the target of enemy attacks by roadside bomb, sniper, and indirect fire, were you in combat? I think so.
To argue otherwise is, I think, bad manners.
No the problem Sal is when ANYONE in government starts treating one group of citizenry better than all the others because of race, sex, political offiliation, sexual preference, etc.
That is BIGOTRY. Last i heard wasnt supposed to be done in our advanced progressive society.....
Only question that should qualify for promotion? Does this person have what it takes for this position. Do they uphold the standards and ethics of the United States Navy? Are they the most qualified?
These are the only questions that need to be asked all else is irrelevent.
So, if she rates the CAR, she can say "combat tour". If not, she oughtn't.
I wonder if she isn't like a jaded member of a totalitarian regieme. That is she knows the utter BS of having to quote the party line, but has to quote that line to stay within the good gracies of the party and to advance up the ladder. Which only makes me wonder what her private thoughts are on the subject with regards to diversity/women/military really is. I also wonder if this might have been a "suggest" in the mold of volun-told that she needs to show up to this conference, so that the Navy could appease the Diveristy Friendship Circle loving politicos whom control the purse strings.
I've heard alot of people complain about this. Especialy the marines and Combat arms troops. To many of them they seem to feel the Give Everyone a medal etc has gotten out of hand.
as an old timer pls advise the current CAR requirements - when i got mine it was get shot at and return fire - get shot at and not return fire no CAR
as an old timer pls advise the current CAR requirements - when i got mine it was get shot at and return fire - get shot at and not return fire no CAR
I believe in the majority of the cases that still is the req. It was when I got mine. But I believe that, if fire was not returned due to possibility of civilian casualties, you will still rate it. And there was some language about routinely taking indirect fire.
Anyhow, I don't believe they are a give-away. We had seven wounded in one of the patrols, took an IED, some RPGs, and small-arms, a number of Marines returned fire, and it still took 90 days to be approved.
Sal, being in the South Pacific in 1943 as a MS3 and being a loggie in the Green Zone are NOT THE SAME THING. URR is correct. I'm not going to feel bad about questioning this either. Bad manners be damned. Did everyone who served in Vietnam qualify as a combat tour? How about the folks in Saigon before the enemy was at the gates? Does the threat of terrorist attack qualify as a combat tour? Do we award CAR's based on risk, or actual events?
I'm not shitting on anyone's service, and I'm tired of this democrat-ish "everyone gets a trophy" mentality that is demonizing this discussion. Sorry for the thread hi-jack, Sal, but it's not the first time that we've gone off on a few tangents on your front porch. From Webster's:
<span>: active fighting in a war : action <span><casualties>combat></casualties></span> </span><span>Examples of COMBAT</span>Some of these soldiers have never seen combat. He was killed in combat. <span>Origin of COMBAT</span>Anglo-French, from combatre to attack, fight, from Vulgar Latin *combattere, from Latin com- + battuere to beat First Known Use: 1546So, if everyone in a warzone is "in combat," how come the DoD reports "non-combat related deaths" from active warzones?
Sal, I know we have gone down what seems a bit of a rabbit hole with the "combat tour" thing. However, your ascribing the debate to "bad manners" misses the point entirely. This is not a 21-year old LCpl telling war stories to impress the girl he had a crush on in HS.
This is a senior Naval Officer, a Flag Officer, with something used to describe her career that embellishes her service, however subtly. Which is precisely the tactic used by such as these feminists to make their point. Lots of women have had to pull the trigger against the enemy in unanticipated combat in IR and AFG. And they have done fine.
But several minutes or even a few hours of a firefight to break an ambush or keep a base perimeter secure is NOT the same as being an infantryman, walking extensive foot patrols with heavy loads, with INTENT to seek contact with the enemy, day after day, week after week.
Many in the group that will attend this presentation will try to make the rest of us think it is, and it starts by using "combat tour" to describe a non-combat tour in a combat zone.
URR, I served a year on MNF-I HQ staff in a combat zone. I would NEVER, EVER characterize it as a combat tour for exactly the reasons you state.
Yeah, you're better than a woman. You could just bottom line it for us.
Run along, now, guest. Grown-ups are talking.
Oh, I'm aware that you think you're better than me, but all women? Why bother stringing the half truths together? Just come out and say it. You'll feel better. I can't wait until you have to stop pretending you're better than gay men in the service. When reality sets in, let us know. Saying parts of Iraq aren't combat zones is like saying reserve officers aren't real officers.
I'm a reserve officer, bonehead.
Being in a combat zone and being in combat are two different things. And you know it. The women in my unit earned the CAR a couple of times over. They did fine, and performed well under fire.
But that does not make them infantrymen. And you know that too.
You are being purposefully obtuse to make some social-engineering political point, again it would seem.
So grow up. Or run along. But save your far-left bile for someone who will fall for it.
A perhaps tangential but nevertheless interesting discussion...
Personally, I've flown more than a few carrier-based sorties in warzones with weapons attached to myself and my aircraft, and I've directly participated in a Tomahawk shoot. However, I would NOT characterize either as "combat", much less being part of a "combat tour".
We should stay on the conservative side of what defines a "combat tour", and I like yours...(paraphrased) being part of an operational unit whose daily mission is to seek contact with an active enemy force. If someone not included in that definition pulls a trigger in defense of themselves or others, then perhaps they get credit for a specific "combat action". Otherwise, it's a "warzone tour" or "warzone deployment". To characterize it as anything more trivializes the risk and effort of the kids doing the heavy lifting.
A caveat to this...on the Navy side, when weapons are launched at the ship where you live, then EVERYONE assigned gets a trophy. On a ship taking fire, there is no "Green Zone" to hide in.
Wow, maybe the reserve officer comment wasn't random. Try looking out for everyone in the military instead of trying to be better than other people in the military. It's more constructive, and something a genuine officer would do. Some men have the capacity to serve active duty full time, some don't. I see where you fall out. Now move along whilst the real men talk. Wow, being as dismissive as you are is fun, too bad it's not constructive.
Why should people get a trophy for getting shot at? That seems to be a perverse incentive.
@GBS, well played, Sir.
Why don't you use "Real Man" as your name, instead of "guest"? That would fit you perfectly. Being so macho, and all.
Guest, you are tiresome and boring. Your snark is almost as junior varsity as your grammar--quite an achievement. The entire point of Diversity Thursday--as I gather it personally, not Sal's mission statement--is to illustrate what happens to operational effectiveness when we compromise our core values and common sense just to satisfy a leftist upopian social engineering agenda. Your harrangue on URL places you firmly at the LUSEA table: that's not a red badge of courage. Your tirade shows that while you purport to be for the service and the servicemen/women that you supposedly advocate on behalf of, you are more committed to LUSEA than to anything else. That makes you a snake, a charlatan, and a joke.
@URL, perhaps one of these "Macho Men?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw
@URL, perhaps one of these "Macho Men?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw
Guest, they get a CAR--JESUS CHRIST WHY DO I EVEN TRY TO REASON WITH YOU?!
I was thinking Belushi aboard the Raging Queen (manly men doing manly things), but yours will do! ;)
Are you in the Navy? Do you know anything about Naval history? Take some time to learn about life onboard a warship assigned to the Solomans, Phillipines or Okinawa campaigns during the WW2. Heck, take some time to learn about what life was like onboard HMS SHEFFIED, or ARA GENERAL BELGRANO during the Falklands War, or USS STARK. In a land warzone, people in support positions rarely carry the same personal risk as the one's going out to make contact with the enemy. Their job is to do something OTHER than fight, so they stay out of the way. On a ship under attack, there is nowhere to go to "get out of the way". EVERYONE carries the same personal risk, and the same personal responsibility to keep the ship afloat and fighting.
PS...how about showing a flag with a name more specific than "Guest"?
GBS,
He/she (which may be accurate as well) is just a troll.
To be ignored. I shouldn't have even acknowledged the inane comments.
Looking at the E7 eval and the statements in Block 37 (character) are all diversity comments to the point that to get a 5.0 one
"-Seamlessly integrates diversity into all aspects of the command.
-Model of achievement. Develops unit cohesion by valuing differences as strengths.
-Leads with an uncompromising code of integrity
-Exemplifies Navy Core Values: Honor, Courage and Commitment."
The irony of the integrity and core values coming after sucking the teet of the diversity industry is astounding. The racism hidden behind hugs and feel good verbiage is vomitous.
It is "good" to see that the senior leadership in the Navy has sold their collective soul and were nice enough to put it on paper. Integrity, Honor, Courage and Commitment come after diversity in importance. Sickening.
@swo, The criteria is to have "...actively engaged..." in ground/surface combat and to have performed satisfactorily while doing so. Over the years these words have been interpreted differently by authorities awarding the decoration. When I received mine the requirement was to receive and return fire (the first engagement I was involved in wasn't counted because our ship was not the one being shot at) and every member of the crew was awarded the CAR. During Operation Mayeguez the Navy initially limited the awards given to USS HENRY B. WILSON crewmembers to those who were exposed to fire, maneuvered the ship, or were involved in gunnery duties. The crew of USS PUEBLO received the CAR long after their return although it's never been clear to me if the award was for the ship's capture (where no shots were returned) or for their period of captivity. Most recently, I understand that the CAR was awarded to crew members of the ships that were shot at with RPGs while inport Aqaba(?) Jordan.
URR's post re:his experience is similar to my son-in-law's and I suspect that the USMC is much more precise in its application of the award's criteria.
The last post was mine.
imagine the following scenario.
clunking along on an elderly old converted freighter, steaming alone six days west of pearl, eating lunch and the ASROC MAGAZINE ALARM starts to ring.
asroc alarms on friday during lunch are normal tests but this is THURSDAY.
then you see a bunch that normally takes 25 minutes to go to quarters makes it in 3minutes. (i saw THREE men go through ONE watertight hatch in two different directions at the same time without drawing blood on the knife edge).
its all a matter of perspective.
when all was said and done it was elevated temperature and we were back to lunch in 30 mintes.
C
example: during viet nam, an aircraft carrier has a terrible fire and looses 27 pilots from fire and smoke inhalation. cause of fire was an inarguably stupid move by ships forces that would allow them to operate 4 days between refuel/rearm rather than three.
CAR or NOtcar????
example: during viet nam. a gunship is operating wayyyyyy to close to shore inorder for the skipper to collect brownie points with the admirals combat camera crew. as a result many "ladies of the evening" are showing their wares with their skirts up around their ears as was the custom in the orient in those days. every set of glasses, scopes.... was in use viewing the wares. a mess cook complained that all of the stuff was in use, so one of the gunners mates ushered him into the duty mount (a 5"54 with train and elevation stations intact) and showed him how to look at the ladies which he did. "charlie" pulls a comaflage net away from a cave mouth and puts one 8" round between the stacks. messcook sees a flash to the left and by reflex moves the sight over to see what it was. somebody in the pilot house looks and sees and leaps for the trigger consol, dispatching three rounds back. 20 minutes later the XO makes the messcook a gunnersmate striker.
CAR or NOTcar??????
C
Lose the tude dude. It is actually service in a combat zone. And Pers et al all know that even if you don't. Who was that dude died a year or two ago with the Medal of Honor. He was just one of the lousy non combat dudes of your definition that put HAL Moores battalion in the Ia Drang and then kept coming back again and again and again. Not a bloody infantryman and thus unqualified to be a combat zone kind of claimant?
Shove it.
That's very much your and the front porch schtic. Belittle and deride and suggest that everyone just move along since there is nothing to see here. No guests allowed. Dissent is not tolerated. Smug self satisfaction consumes this place and you're one of the drivers.
A simple defninition of combat is to be shot at and shoot back but in the ages before you came along to enlighten us, it was enough to be shot at. WTF did you think happened to the thousands of merchant ships sunk by submarines killing almost all the crews? Was that not combat? Bombed burned and sunk? Not combat?
Jackass!
Soon as you use your real name, I'll use mine, part timer.
URR, you are applying our rules and regs to another service. Apples and oranges. Let her brag as she will, we know the difference and that is all that matters. S/F.
That's right Regis, ignore those that are correct. It's easier than proving you half truths strung together to satisfy your need for machismo.
GBS,
So when a base is under attack, the women aren't in combat but the men are? Ok. You missed the "M" for "Gotta Be ***ttin' Me"
And she doesn't claim one. She served in a combat zone but did not see combat and wasn't blown up. Thus, no purple heart and no CAR. You seem to equate service in the zone as combat and a lot of the rest of us say, no that may not neccesarily follow and it's not some weird girls only rule.
You may read it yourself if you like at opnav 1650 and you'll find just like all the rest that there is absolutely no requirement to shoot. Very odd that. Imagine who the authors had in mind when they wrote that...Read it and learn.
For what it's worth, URR's real name is known to most who are regulars here. He's not hiding from anything. So what if he uses a Latin name (with all the words spelled correctly.).... AHEM!
For years, to earn a CAR in the USMC, you have had to at least return fire and been part of a combat arms. Even with those requirements meet, there were many awards that were denied. In the current wars, it took a few years for IEDs to count as a combat event.
As far as your example, many brave men lost thier lives trying to do thier part for the war effort. Tough work just being a target, braver than me.
As far as dissent, more the marrier, I need my daily chuckle.
Nice comeback Potsie!
You could read some books on the Vietnam conflict and find that service in Saigon was actually not the walk in the park you imagine and particularly not in Tet 68. Yes they had tennis raquets and played games but they suffered all the risks that helicopter mechanics experienced. The Marine helicopter mechanics on Trenton got the CAR as did the rest of the crew of that ship and they never left anchorage during the whole 'incident.' It was as bad as the Aqaba incident.
Don't be a DB.
Troll! I got it! *stomp stomp stomp*
Sigh, now I have to go and get the pressure washer, and the power holystoner. You DO know that trolls stain the deck of the porch, don't you? And it's not like Wellingtons are easy to find in Badger Friendly sizes, either. Now I'll have a soggy tail alll Saturday.
Got more time in the chow line than you got in a uniform, if you ever wore one for anything other than crossing guard.
Ed Freeman. He was a helo pilot who won the MOH but also the DFC, which is a combat award. Which makes his tour a combat tour.
A tour in a combat zone is not the same as a combat tour. Lots of combat tours in IR and AFG that are not infantry tours. So you mught wanna lose the tude yourself.
Dude, leave the broad brush at home. Use a sharpie instead.
Bistro, I hope that you excel in science and math because spelling is obviously not your forte...
I would call this a combat tour.
<span>Point being, which you missed, likely intentionally, was the women in my unit who were awarded a Combat Action Ribbon served a combat tour. Unless the Admiral here was eligible, she shouldn't use the term.
It is the stated intent of DACOWITS and other women's advocacy groups to make combat arms open to women, because they equate (falsely) the occasional combat action like our unit had with the kind of combat 2/4 saw in Ramadi and 1/5 saw in Fallujah.
So if bistro and his buddy "guest" don't know that difference, perhaps they should find out for themselves.</span>
<span>@ Guest: Are</span> you always this dense?
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-sailor-20110903,0,3548124,full.story
So, we see a bit of a double standard here. Granted she got a punitive letter. But that also means she can leave honorably, I think. She should get passed over for O2, but we shall see. Now, SHE was the officer, and HE was the enlisted. How would this have played out if the genders were flipped? Mast and a BOI? Sexual harassment? Sexual assault? She was from the Naval Academy, fresh out if she was an Ensign. Hmmmm, how's that "you are the victim" course of study taught at the USNA working? She knew she was effed up. I do recall the no frat lectures. When an organization bends the rules to support gender and race politics, the organization loses its credibility. Go Navy!
Again, not talking about Tet. Read my whole comment next time. "Back before the enemy was at the gates." So, basically we're talking the off chance of a VC throwing a grenade @ the cafe you are sipping a Tiger at, or firebombing the local establishment of ill repute where you and your buddies are enjoying some liberty at. If you never see action in Saigon, is it a combat tour?
Answer: NO.
Why is it that we are so quick to call everyone a "warrior" and say they were in "combat" but so hard pressed to reward our real warriors with medals that they have earned (ala MOH)?
URR, you nailed it.
Bistro I am getting tired of reading your stream of consciousness. If your brain is as disorganized as your writing, then I fear we shall never get a solid sentence let alone a paragraph from you.
Think - Write - Proofread - Revise - Post.
I believe that the men of the USS Forrestal did NOT get a CAR for fighting the fire.
Negative. It's all Department of the Navy, Redeye...
Double standard for punishment and investigation based on gender?!?!?!?!
Absolutely unprecedented.
Salty, sorry it is not. The services can have more restrictive policies. That's why we have Marine Corps Orders and Bulletins, There is a difference and I am glad there is so.
Does that make you feel better? Meaningless insults? You should be a Commander in the reserves.
Sharpie? LOL. This blog is all broad generalizations and hate, especially about women and gay people. At least you mask the hate for racial minorities.
URR,
Funny, I went back and reread some of the comments from that post and it seems that my experience was atypical. Evidently preferential treatment to the females in these circumstances is quite rare. So said your antagonist. I non-concur.
Marines follow me. Into combat. How 'bout you?
Have a troll-tastic Labor Day weekend, guest.
the example was oriskany.
C
Time in a chow line? Does that count as combat for you because you're a man?
I wouldn't follow you anywhere, let alone into combat. Marines probably only respect you because of your part time rank.
You sure wouldn't follow me. I wouldn't allow you within a hundred yards of any of my Marines. Two hundred yards, if combat were possible.
As for why my Marines would follow me, you would have to ask them.
Don't bite down, URR. You'll lose your tongue from your cheek all the way back to the root.
URR,
Some more ammo for ya:
DoN instruction on assignment of women to military units
Quoted from para 5: a. Direct Ground Combat Rule. Service members are eligible to be assigned to all positions for which they are qualified, except that women shall be excluded from assignment to units below the brigade level whose primary mission is to engage in direct combat on the ground, as defined below.
b. Direct Ground Combat. Direct ground combat is engaging an enemy on the ground with individual or crew served weapons,
while being exposed to hostile fire and to a high probability of direct physical contact with the hostile force's personnel.
Direct ground combat takes place well forward on the battlefield while locating and closing with the enemy to defeat them by
fire, maneuver, or shock effect.
I would also suggest you review para 6 of this instruction as well.
Cheers in your war with the troll. I will try and remember that the situtation is well in hand because the Marines have landed. 8-)
urr,
We got a most simple definition for the CAR in the Navy. She doesn't claim one or wear one so she's cool with me for serving combat tours or serving in a war zone. Never-the-less she served in a Combat Zone and drew exactly the same combat or Imminent Danger Pay that you drew if you did in fact serve over Iraq or Afghanistan. If you were there you could check your W2 and look at I think block 13. It, to the best of my recall defines non taxable wages and income such as IDP and Hostile Fire Pay.
You're an extremely hostile and immature dude. Who appointed you Top God of determining who is and is not a combatant? You confessed that maybe a helo pilot may have as much right to claiming that they were there and entitled. What about the artillery in Vietnam or the Combat Engineers of the Battle of the Buldge; not actually infrantry are they? I know a bunch of reservists that got blown up in Saudi Arabia when a SCUD landed on them. Last I knew, they got the Purple Heart Medal but no award of the CAR. That struck me as fair since they were only in danger from ballistic missiles at that point and that defined every man, woman and child in the US too for the last 50 years.
Well er,
It works differently outside your beloved USMCR. If you drew the pay for Combat in the Zone how exactly would you describe such a tour in your terse bio? This wasn't a fitrep.
Phib,
I liked the USS San Diego. She earned 18 battle stars during WWII and never lost a single sailor. Lucky ship. She had a Japanese counterpart DD, in all the major battles of the war and didn't get hit. I think that was in "Japanese Destroyer Captain" but can't recall the name of the ship. I dare to say that if the CAR had been around back then, every man who served on USS SAN DIEGO earned it.
Yeah but to the rest of us he posts masked, like a bank robber or gunman. Other people have the integrity to post as themselves and always have had. I don't insist on using real names but one is not allowed to get away with bitch slapping a guy for posting as 'guest' while posting as urr. It's one or the other rule and it applies equaly and the guy that slaps a guest for posting while hiding his/her identity and demanding that the guest reveal his identity is utterly lame lame. ULL. They don't slip into the robes and go to secret meetings and claim or have their followers claim that it is enough that they are known elsewhere. That describes the FBI top ten most wanted... Just saying.
Bistro, you ought to get your money back for that on-line detective course.
Wow! I missed all this fun? Looks like some serious troll ass-kickin' going on here while I was on vacation. Got to love the "Guest" that shows up all superior and snide and perfect in his knowledge that we're all a bunch of knuckle dragging barbarian white male supremicists..And the other jackass that posts under his email address (hey, hope you're spam filters are good, gmail is going to love you!)? Nothing dumber than bringing a knife to a gunfight and that's pretty much what he did.
Looks like fun...sorry I missed out! :) And boys...don't start on this old Cajun's ass...my bite is way the hell worse than my bark.
bistro, you probably think you had a point somewhere in there.
But in between criticism of me and of comments you apparently didn't read very carefully, having a few drinks apparently, and trying to teach some convoluted history lesson, it disappeared.
Did you bring back shrimp gumbo? If you didn't, go back to your vacation and don't return till you have some. Enough to share.
Hiding his identity????
Hahahaha. Good one.
Okay Sherlock... look at the non-generic avatars here.
Which one do you think is really a photo:
a. Salamander
b. Delta Bravo
c. Badger
d. Ultima Ratio Regis
Dang. It's not that hard.
...I'm guessing... curiosity as to what you'll do next?
(tee hee)
*runs under porch
Full of a bunch of folks that know all the answers, and are smarter than everyone else. Typical of a couple senior officers and the chicks that cater to them.
So powerful Byron.
Byron,
I defie you to figure it out and don't care if you do. I'll give yoiou a hinte and suggest that som people attributte this adress too a speling eror.
By the way, I did give you all a clue to the true address in this series of posts.
I pity the fool that has that gmail account and misspelled it. Just think of what the poor guy or girl is in for when you unleash your horrifying attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nameless, this really is a case in point of sychophants just advertising on your blog that those who argue different, suggest alternative points of view are just begging for a DNS attack or a SPAM attack by your loyal crew. Rather sad really. Given your role in things on this blogsite you know that their actions are the exact mirror of the USN. Congrats. Byron conflates disagreement with being a Troll.
Stream of conscious Bistro going offline.
They follow you because you've stayed a part timer long enough to be promoted, and they respect the rank and the uniform. I've seen plenty of senior reservists that nobody respects, but they're tolerated.
How about using his actual NAME? It must take a great deal of shame to chastise others for not using their names while hiding his own don't you agree?
Back on.
For someone who doesn't care, you seem to write alot about it. Bet you can't stay away. But then you're the smartest person in the room, or maybe in the Navy. See ya when you get back.
db,
Are you a believer in crystals and stuff? Anybody can post any picture that they want to and who knows...other than their wiccan circle? I've seen faked honor dudes like ULL who wear their alleged Medal of Honor at the top of their 23 row rack of combat ribbons and get accepted as real heros or "SEAL" TRIDENT and get outed. You've offered me a teeny tiny picture of some guy I don't know in cammies? BFD!!! God you're gullible.
=not hiding identity=identifying himself by name. Is that like a clue to you?
Sherlock
There's disagreeing... and being disagreeable. You managed to do both.
Crystals? hahahahahah.
You're as incorrect in that as you are in everything else you've written. But drive on. It's fun to watch.
So ull,
You seem to have written above that the Medal of Honor is not a combat award but the DFC is. And one of the front porch promptly chimed in that this is so.
Medal of Honor award has to be justified as a combat award by the DFC?
You know that the DFC is very very far from a combat award right? It's generic. It's like the MSM.
Bistro,
The reason that most folks here get thier fur up about these Thursday postings, which always seem to draw out the most of the trolls or haters, is that instead of trying to have an honest debate about the issue being raise. Instead we have people that come in using either the "Guest" name or some other strawman to argue about how everyone needs to just come into the 21st centuary. The questions being asked by these postings here by the Cdr is that are we sacrificing our readiness, our ability to fight a war, or even violating some of our basic rules (if not even the letter of the law) as it comes with this self-promotion of race/sex/creed/etc over others. The other issue that most of the folks here have is that there are drive by folks who intentionally put up straw-men or conduct sockpuppetary or completely shift target from the debate at the time to one of the other poster's background. Take it all with a grain of salt and don't run away, come back and debate with a logical approach against some of the others, be willing to accept there are contrary op-eds, finally just accept that some folks are entrenched in their opinions (like URR) that they aren't completely willing to shift thier minds.
I get into debates with URR, Cdr Sal, Byron, DB and the rest of the front porch crowd from time to time over topics brought up. I still think that some of thier thought processes are wrong, but am still willing to break bread and drink a beer with them.
Oh and one final thing to think about. This is a truism that I have learned over 20+yrs of debating on the internet. That is everyone is wrong and you can't win at a debate on the internet.
Kind of like you ULL.
You casually respond to every non porch poster here as the troll in chief. Like you own the spot. Perhaps you do. Guest and me seem to amount to the 3 little billy goats crossing the bridge.
Enumerate you worthless troll. Post your counter arguments you troll.
The Army finally woke up to the fact that only infantry were to be allowed the award of the CIB unless they had very special exemptions. MPs engaged in hours long battles protecting truck columns from Al Quada were not eligible because they were not Infantry. Ditto every other branch in the ARMY. YOU claim not to be ARMY so we go by the rules of the DON rules and you're just totally wrong. Not man enough to admit it. With a handle like your's you're probably a 12 year old girl who's read Stephenson and liked it.
Man up here loser. Name, rank, unit assignment. You're the actual troll here.
Awww bless their hearts... they can't help themselves. If you analyze all their posts it's all because someone made them feel inferior and they snapped back rudely... a little too quickly.
Maybe they need to talk to someone about those inferiority complexes. This isn't the place for that. We WERE talking about special treatment for the ladies.
As a lady, I'll say it again... history shows the battlefield doesn't show special treatment for anyone. The military isn't about special snowflakes and making exceptions for the weakest, the lame, the halt and the blind. Those who cannot or will not accept those terms need to stay far away from the battlefield. Advancement made on any terms other than competence will result in incompetent leadership. Full stop.
Guest,
I don't think that this is so. At least it didn't used to be so. Here used to be concerned by the total dismissal of the meritocracy promotion regime which admittedly was tainted by the heritage thing but heritage speaks more to me than promoting totally unqualified people.
I see that yet another one of the good Cdr's diversity postings has drawn hate, discontent, and in general hurt feelings all the way around. At the same time the debate has shifted from the questions about why the US Navy is violating article 1164 of US Navy Regulations with its promotion of a Rear Admiral (who happens to be a woman and in charge of a Supply Corps division) into a woman's only leadership convention/meeting. Instead the debate has shifted from the question about whether or not a woman in Iraq and Afghanistan was in combat and deserving of calling a tour in an active combat zone is good enough to be called a "combat tour". Then the debate shifted to the background of whether or not URR was a true, blue, genuine American Marine or if he was a poser, over-blown, reservist who is trying to act like LBJ/Murtha/McCarty. We have had strawmen, sock puppets, and overall children like behavior from most of the folks here. Of which I admit I am just as guilty at times in this debate. I must say this has been a fun weekend thanks all for proving yet again that one can never win a debate on the intenet.
Back on until I put down the bottle...
You DB don't actually know what you write about.
Yeah, I'll be banned but look at you! You're utterly predictable and your total input is YORC, YORC and silence this voice. I don't doubt that you will succeed. That is how 'consensus' works here on this blog. Jam fingers in the ears and wail as loudly as you can until the 'attackers' are driven off. I'm really not impressed.
Dissent is utterly untolerated by each and every one of your fellow commentors. So be it. I was just lamenting that fact. Again, you, like Byron and all the rest, make the point. 'Nough said?'
Ad hominum, should I spell that out in English? How about I decide you are a crack loser whore who only posts when you get free of your pimp? What do you use for your IP, Starbucks?
Come on. And yes, Congratulations db! You too prove the point I was trying to make. Instant rabid attack on alt posters on this site. You prove my point! 2 down, 4 to go.
Southern AP
Both of those men made some of the most powerful speeches I've ever heard myself (on the radio) I was too young for either of them but heard every Malcom X speech on the way into Philly a long time ago on NPR.
I believe that words are words and not letters are words. It's a personal foible. Have the guts to spell our your words. My predecessor did. Poor guy.
Thanks for the advice! Check out random
I really think you ought to read some more. Honestly.
I came back from ASW OPS 85-6 and earned a Meritorious Unit Citation Service Ribbon. The two ladies in my outfit got that and Navy Unit Citations from where they worked ashore keying the whole op. Never left the beach got both the MUC and the NUC. Hugely well deserved.
You're blathering still about the CAR? How would you feel about being pointed at the Aqaba incident? I don't actually have any problems with the award there. Other than the Trenton, I don't have any problems of it's award ever. The Trenton qualified because the MAGTF embarked lost an attack helo early days in a very short conflict. To the best of my knowlege nobody know's why to this date that it crashed.
DB,
No. To be honest to any who read here. You're a ghost to me. You have zero cred but you don't need it. Does he have a CAC card that you ever saw?
U see, you half dozen porch monkeys demand total creds and diss everybody. I've decided to take some time off the porch and ask the same until I am excused by fiat. again.
Thank you Southern AP,
I agree to an extent but it was not Thursdays, it was a lot of days. There was one who drew the true hate and denigration and never left any tracks to greater things behind that may cement any of his claims. He hated: the rest of the porch reacted truly as they always do and some of us said enough. Some might agree that it was me. I disagree. It looked unanimous from I stood that all the front porch crew joined in to savage ME and the GUEST. You did that a number of times before. Instant hatred. I can except disagreement but instant assignment as a troll or ignorant? Naah, not so much.
Thanks to the Front Porch Phib basically has a blog of about 7 people. Way to GO! YOU RULE!!!!!
NAME WITHHELD LIKE EVERY SINGLE ONE YOU.
You chickens.
NOT!
You personify don't getting it. I disagree with you=disagreeable, yeah?
walking away. maybe. for a bit.
I type at night on a genuine laptop. on my lap. of course it sucks!
Bronze Star?
For the record:
This conversation about the topic Phib chose was civil and going along just fine four days ago. Until 0916 four days ago (Thursday) . Look it up.
Gee... who could that have been? Who turned it sour? Who fired the first shot across the bow?
As for my bona fides... I don't believe I've ever specifically listed them or what gives me "zero cred" (as if I care) or why I stay here. Like everyone else here, I have my own reasons for reading and paying attention to Big Navy. Which I don't have to justify to someone who says I am "ignorant and lazy."
Don't play martyr, now, bistrobuddy. You came to stir up trouble and you did. Don't pretend anyone was picking on you and you're any kind of victim. You and guest did more than your share of name calling and seafoam stirring for the past 4 days.
For starters:
<img></img> <span><span>bistromathamatician@gmail.com</span><span></span><img></img></span>
<span>DON'T FUCKING KNOW pretty much describes the front porch. Ignorant and Lazy! After 10 years of war to not understand that combat means getting blown to pieces or RISKING getting blown to pieces by taking a trip from A to B or A to Z and doing it every day. </span>
I'm sure you have, guest.
Just the same, ask yourself if Marines follow you into the shooting.
Have another drink, bistro.
DB,
You aced my point rather well. If that means anything. Y'all are not civil at all. No sir! You're some of the meanest posters I've ever seen outside the political blogosphere. Ultra lame leads all the rest of the half dozen of you in just playing bully and asshat. For some reason you haven't noticed that your playthings have resorted to posting as 'guest'. They have excellent reason to post as such here. You must be some kind of remarkable person to realize that your continued slavish following of the herd limits the size of the herd here on namelesses post. It's you half dozen blazing stolidly against the rest. Good for you front porch. Want some lemonade with that? Agree with us or DIE!
If I was nameless I'd suffer some disappointment and more than a little shame that my crusade against the diversity mantra had created an ineluctable mantra from the very few that he permits to post at his website. Just like the diverse mob. We'll tolerate no dissent here!!
But you tiny few, you speak the party line. Good for you.
How was that for stream of conscious?
So your plan is to piss people off until you get banned? Damn, seems like a lot of wasted effort; why didn't you simply ask Phib to ban you from the start, would have been a lot easier...
But, I did not do what you claim. As I pointed out erlier. Whose the dumbas now?
Watch whiim get spun up about speling errors now.
I will help you out again. spell mathematician right and you got me. doomed. just doomed.
So like you're just refusing to identify yourself. How like this post of nameless folks.
You remind me of the LtCol of Marines who was senior at Bright Star one year and thus was given the opportunity to speak to ARCENT/C3Army and senior staff and his opening remark was "thank you general for giving us this opportunity to shop."
Is that who I remind you of? Well then. Since you have been present, I am sure, for a number of my briefs before Generals, Admirals, diplomats, and a head of State here and there, your opinion must be entirely valid.
After all, you have been unflaggingly right, so far. And infinitely superior morally and intellectually. Even in your gin-soaked rage.
Now you know don't you? Baseless accusation. You've been there and done that for far to long.
Don't you think that you should stop?
I would prefer it if you would view my remarks as lesson. One needs to think before reaching conclusions.
Bistro,
Being that we seem to be bouncing around all over the place, bless your heart, I would invite this game for you.
Do like DB did and dig a bit. See what my position is vs. the "front porch." Why, do you think, I don't have the vapors simply because 85% disagree with me. And why do you feel the need to go all pharisaical on everyone?
Perhaps the problem isn't the front porch, but the problem is ......
Byron,
He did.
I did ask Far East Cynic to ban me since me and him have major disagreements on his blog. He's a true gentleman and declined forcefully to ban this treasured soul.
But I wonder about you. Yes I do. I pissed you off? What a shock. All you front porch guys are like slaves to the lamp. I've addressed this before. Can't help but point it out. Every single one of you half dozen are most ugly, unpleasant and disagreeable to posters that argue the facts. You're all like global warmest screeds. You can be relied upon to be ugly.
sorry nameless, that's the fact.
<p><span>DivThu sure brings out the clueless out in droves, doesn't it.</span>
</p><p><span>1. Who has been at the front in supporting women serving since ... I don't know .... mid-80s IRL and 2004 in the blogosphere? Me. Strike 1.</span>
</p><p><span>2. Who was one if not the first Navy milblogger to come out, no pun intended, in favor of getting rid of DADT and letting homosexuals serve? Me. Strike 2.</span>
</p><p><span>3. Who believes that good people can disagree on the subjects and will not call those who think otherwise misogynists and homophobes? Me. I won't call that a strike because I am feeling nice.</span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>Guest, unless you want to be called a troll here is a little advice:</span>
</p><p><span>1. Take 3 seconds and think of a cute nom-du-blog and post under that so we can at least address you and not the other half a dozen lazy people who also stick with "guest." </span>
</p><p><span>2. Make an effort to at least read some of this blog before you make such lame comments that are debunked so fast that you actually make me look good. You know, uninformed dissent just strengthens that which you oppose, FWIW.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>Why do I even bother responding? I've actually succeeded over the years to convert quasi-trolls to commenters. Spice adds flavor - but you have to make the effort too. </span>
</p>
You. You don't tolerate dissent. You failed.
Sigh. The blind can't see. Have a good week.
Funny. Especially when you could consider most of Sal's posts are dissenting of the official Navy line.
Come back agian, I need the chuckles.
Don't I know that! >:o
Jesus! I've been working too long in Romania it seems- I missed this dust up. Bistro boy let me give you a tip from long experience, learn how to pick your fights. This is one you are not going to win. Trust me on this one.......been there got the T- shirt. >:o
.... but we still wuv wu! (but not THAT way ... not that there is anything wrong with that)
BTW Skippy, I am very distressed that we didn't hear from you on Saturday's post. I've been pouting all weekend.
.... but Skippy, you are part of the front porch. Your rocking chair is the one next to the cooler across from AR so ya'll can make googly-eyes at each other. ;)
I've been very busy having more fun than a man should be allowed to have. You will notice my own blog postings have dropped dramatically .......only so many hours in the day. When I am not prowling the streets of Bucharest I have been reading or sending out my resume.
So polite.
You respond because you never miss the opportunity to belittle and insult those that disagree with you.
Any time you want to meet up in DC, tough guy.......
YOU SPELLED IT RIGHT THIS TIME! I'M SO PROUD OF YOU!
"mathEmatician"
"consciousness"
"Defy"
There we go with the spelling again.........
and I forgot "dumbass."
Fool...I use my real name every day...including here.
Shipmate,
THE SAN DIEGO WAS IN COMBAT. So was Captain Hara's boat referenced in JDC. This cannot possibly be as difficult to understand as you are making it.
Sir,
I would respectfully ask why you simply did not call Rear Admiral Dussault, ask to speak with her, and share your concerns? I think she would have taken your phone call or gotten back to you. If you had emailed her, I believe she would have freely discussed your concerns.
Have a fine Navy Day.
Very respectfully,
LCDR M.E. Kessler, SC, USN
LCDR Kessler,
I think the panel speaks for itself ... I'm not sure what would be gained by the conversation ... but funny you should bring this up. I have another post concerning something put out by Rear Admiral Dussault. You may not be aware that I have been trying for two weeks now to get a response from the PAOs in the 41 shop and they are not helping. They acknowledge my email, say they will get back with me, pass me on to someone else, they state they will get back with me .... and ..... then don't read the email and ask what it is about ..... and then ..... I was a recividist Staff Weenie and I know that dance. I'm mad at myself for dancing with them.
The Flag Officers I worked with in the Navy preferred that media go through thier PAOs. Their time if more important than having blogg'rs calling all day. I have tried. Her PAOs are failing. The post will go up next week with or without her PAOs input. Fix the media relations in your shop Shipmate then get back to me - don't blame the messenger next week.
Stand by for heavy rolls!
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