Tuesday, September 06, 2011

How do you say "Sea Apache" in Russian?

Learn and adapt ... learn and adapt.
Using attack helicopters from the sea appears to be in vogue, again.

The concept appeared dormant, but gained new attention in Europe when the French and U.K. moved to deploy on ships the Tiger and Apache helicopters in support of military operations in Libya.

Australia also has plans to deploy its Tiger ARHs from ships.

Now Russia is joining the mix. The country's military is conducting trials to clear the Ka-52 for ship-borne operations, with the Northern Fleet using the Vice Adm. Kulakov for at-sea trials.


When I saw that pick, my puzzl'r started tingl'n and I said, "Ah, ha! I've seen that concept before!"

Indeed I had ... but we took a pass on it. Meet the Sea Apache.



I bet the Riverine guys - not to mention the SEALs - would have loved to have such a capability with a NAVY stamp on it over the last decade. I know the "career path management issues" that are so important on active duty would make it problematic - because as we know that is the most important thing - but imagine two-to-four squadrons of these aircraft in a det-rotation cycle at home in the Reserves. You would be beating pilots away with bullwhips to get a billet there.

The original proposal still had the 30mm gun, but even with that deleted - not too shabby.
Weapons planned for use with the Sea Apache include Harpoon, Stinger, Sidewinder, Sidearm, AMRAAM, Penguin, and Hellfire missiles, as well as 127mm Zuni and 70mm FFAR rockets. The Harpoon, Penguin and He!Ifire missiles wouId be used against large naval targets, the Sidewinder and Stinger in the air-to-air mode, and the 127mm Zuni and 70mm FFAR rockets against smaller water borne targets and ground targets. A variety of missiles/rockets could be carried at the same time giving the Sea Apache the capability of engaging different types of targets on the same mission, making it a very versatile and useful naval aircraft.

Performance goals specified for the Sea Apache by the Navy include a 370km mission radius, and a four hour endurance on station.
Check out what LMT can do with the 'ole 70mm rocket now days. You want precision strike with minimal collateral damage? Here you go!

Oh well - different world with different leaders with different vision.


Hat tip Lee.

55 comments:

ewok40k said...

and ideal for rapid reaction to a pirate attack distress call...

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

They should have left the gun on. A cheap, fast way to deal with Boston Whalers.

Maogwai Cat said...

Remember when they used to put Army H-58's on Spru's and Figs? 

SouthernAP said...

I remember seeing an article years ago in Proceedings that talked about the need for the HSL and HS bubbas to learn tactical flying and that the folks with in the PMA for the helo area of NavAir need to look at how to fit either a dual launcher or some sort of quad launcher for the Stinger to the H-60 airframe. Simply cause there had been a growing number of folks bring attack types out to sea on thier ships.

Ffej said...

Never gonna happen- it'll be a cold day in hell when the helo community gets a real forward-firing ordnance mission and a fixed-winged battle group commander lets them take a shot. Until then, the helo community will continue down the path of the Penguin (much like its namesake-a flightless bird), the panacea of the Hellfire (using an armor piercing missile against a fiberglass hulled FAC/FIAC? Gimme a break), and the GAU-16 (more of an egress hindrance than a viable weapon).  Meanwhile, the knuckleheads in the helo community leadership positions and NAVAIR work to give the -60 a 30mm cannon that will be just about as useful as tits on a bull. Concur with SouthernAP-need a quad type launcher for small, light, multiple rocket shots and a high rate of fire, trainable machine gun.

Surfcaster said...

How do you say "Sea Apache" in Russian?


Nyet!

leesea said...

There were a number of Seawolves who argued strongly for helo gunships to protect the new riverines inIraq.  The said later and the boat guys had to ask for Marines to cover their butts.  NOT a good situation.
Fast fwd:  Now the riverines are back to Columbia and maybe Nigeria and guess what?  Maybe they can get some host-nation CAS? 
UNTIL a rivereine sailor is killed !!!!!
NSW has the 160th SOAR.  EXW warriors have nada, and to make matters worse neither have a ship to get them, their boats nor any helo to where they are needed~

IMHO the Navy has blinders on.

leesea said...

I should have said senior naval leaders have blinders on.  I know there are a lot of helo guys who would love to do inshore CAS

leesea said...

we uses BWs with M60 and mortars on them driven by one or two outboards.  Tough to find at night~

Anonymous said...

Yeah, but can it carry mail?

Anonymous said...

Thing is, if you put an elevator on the afr end of an LCS, you could use them as a mini-carrier to support the Riverene forces. She's got a fair-sized flight deck and all that hangar space below. LCS would be able to perhaps act as "mother" for the Monitors and PBR's of today, Maybe use 2 of them, one for air ops and the other for swift boat maintenance, lofistics, etc.

Easy to keep a ready-helo on the flight deck, too. That would give you rapid CAS for the boats, as well as a rapid CAP for the LCS's. 

Just thinking out loud, but that might be an actual useful mission for LCS, with minimal refittinf, etc.

Spade said...

Why reinvent the wheel? Aren't the Brit AH-64's already Navalized?

Salty Gator said...

snooze........Riverines are going away.  No mission.  They are searching for something to do.  SPECWAR usually does Columbia, and their ops area will be significantly constrained.  I know guys down there / heading down there.  They are shopping for work.  Not a good thing for longevity of a unit.

Now, applying this to conventional SUW or FAC/FIAC?  Strike in support of SEALs that 160th cannot support?  Hell yes.

Bubba said...

Remember when we had Sprus and Figs?

AW1 Tim said...

  Sorry. "Guest" above is me. I cleaned out all the temp files last night and forgot to redo the sign in stuff.

Bill said...

The flechette warheads would be effective against Whalers and other "small craft". The Iran Ajir incident was a good example of that.  However, I'm not sure we still produce flechette warheads for the rockets.

Stu said...

Not sure why you wouldn't want the gun.

Rob said...

Talking to a Sikorsky type: "
<span>The Marines have the AH-1W and Apaches have been used off of NAVY ships for years. The costs for a fully Naval version of the Apache is just not justified, especially when you take into account the current and near term UAV’s. The days of manned attack aircraft of just about any type are limited."</span>

AW1 Tim said...

I'd rather use the weapons we have to take out all the talking heads who want to remove aircrew from aircraft.

There are missions and needs for drones, but to even conteplate a day without manned attack aircraft is the epitome of foolishness.

When we remove men from harm's way, then we make war less costly, and that, in turn, makes war so much easier to contemplate. I want a military that is man-centric. so that those tasked with contemplating war will have needs to pause and think about the human cost(s) of their decisions.

Spade said...

Going away? Cool. So next time we get into a fight in someplace with rivers we can play the "Relearn Lessons from Many Years Ago" Game.

SouthernAP said...

"The days of manned attack aircraft of just about any type are limited". We have all heard that one before right? Tell me again how well that worked out for the industries that were destroyed?

Grandpa Bluewater said...

You would if you had any sense.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

You would if you had any sense.

chief torpedoman said...

Yep, we can relearn to be a brown water navy all over again.

Let's see. We had it in the Civil War, had to relearn it for WW2 (pt boats), lost it afterwords, had to relearn it again for Viet Nam (PBRs), lost it again, had to relearn it again for Iraq. Maybe John Kerry can teach it to us.

I like the idea of hooking up with the LCS. At least it gives a workable module package for the LCS until the overpaid idiots in DC figure out how to get the other ones going.

Bc said...

Was wondering when "armed helo" would enter the thread. Winner!

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Correct as usual AW1.  Jam and splash. End of story.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Maybe all the helo pilots are pacifists, kinda like the Coast Guard. Or maybe the attack pilots are being piggy about the mission. What ever the reason, it's been consistent for 50 years.

Makes no sense at all to me.

Bill said...

Having been involved in the USN RadHaz testing of the AH-64, I know the Army gun variant would have never flown..it could not be made to pass required radiation levels back "then' in the early/mid 80s. Maybe that's why the concept for the Sea Apache did not have one?  Just spitballin...and it seems like every bird ever sent to the Marines without a gun, late got fitted with one in some form or fashion.

Bill said...

ahh yes. Classic case of "read link before guessing". Oops.  I see that the 30mm chin gun was eliminated to accomodate a different landing gear configuration on the Navy variant.

James said...

YES but can a LCS carry a sea apache? does it have room and will it detract from the core.............oh wait it has no freaking core mission its good at. My bad.

Does it have space.....i doubt it.

Old Soldier said...

Worked on the original AH-64 in the 1970's.  It was proposed to the Navy then.  No tailhook; rejected.

James said...

When it comes to war marines tend to be sensable folks.

James said...

And when the satelites get taken out and the Ultimate weapon gets lost or their code gets corrupted by chinese chips or spys...........what then?

EMP? Gone.

When your UAV cost as much as a MUCH more capable manned aircraft you've eliminated the point of a UAV.

Not to mention UAV's suck at UCAV roles and will for awhile. Dogfights are just to complicated atm and will be for atleats 20 or more years.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

When one attempts absurdities in waging battle, there is almost always instantaneous and negative feedback.  Lending one toward a somewhat more sober approach than a powerpoint presentation often exudes.

It takes a whole stack of John Nagls to equal one Larry Nicholson.

Jing said...

Actually the U.S. marines already do have a sea borne attack helicopter.

Here it is landing on a LHD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AH-1Z_lands_on_USS_Makin_Island_LHD-8.jpg

The AH-1Z Just entered service in 2010. As frar as Cobra helicopter variants go, it is the heaviest version (nearly double the weight of the original version) with the same engines as the Apache and a similar weapons payload. The only thing missing is the mast radar which is not really necessary.

AW1 Tim said...

It had a darned cavernous well deck from the pics I saw.  If not Apache, then some SeaCobras certainly would do.

I still think that, if we are to have LCS, then a role as a Riverene Support Vessel would be an ideal consideration.

ewok40k said...

The entire point of UAV is not having a captured pilot dragged thru streets of Tehran or Pyongyang on TV everywhere...
Anyway with CPU power and memory of computers doubling every X months, we are bound to get fully autonomous unmanned vehicles somewhere down the road. Once you cut the EM lifeline, you can harden the vehicle against EMP. Of course implications of that level of AI will be far more reaching than that...

ewok40k said...

given the Sea Cobra carries more firepower than LCS, a mini-carrier role is logical...

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

Have to add self defence guns to the LCV variant, if you play in the riverine enviroment, you go where anti tank weapons are found, and boats that belong to the Bad Rabbits.  Bofors still makes 40mms.

leesea said...

NECC is doing Columbia now, a RivRon det is headed south, Marines turned that and Africa over to NECC to include MCAST.

leesea said...

would be is wrong tense, were damn effective in 'Nam~

leesea said...

Tim that is one of my bitches about LCS. LCS-1 has none, LCS-2 has one sized for smaller cargo.  The problem being no one wrote it into the rqmts?

You know you or I might look at the mission deck for cargo/gear and the hangar deck for birds and wonder how the two are connected but not the folks in NAVSEA?!

James said...

And then the UCAV will cost 150 mil a peice.

Im not saying the UAV doesnt play a role just that you cant get rid of the human in the mix.

I've always figured the future has humans more interdependent upon computers, robots etc. Not estranged.

Oh and not having anymore fuck ups like the whole somalia episode will help. Dont send in 100 rangers when you need a thousand marines.

NO LIMITED WARS.

Limited means

cost more,
takes longer,
worse in the end.

leesea said...

NOPE.  The LCS is only sized for 11 meter Navy Standard RHIB (ramp, overhead and gantry).   Guess what folks the riverines do NOT use that boat and all their newer boats are even bigger 50 to 65 ft long.  So its merely wishful thinking that the LCS can do that.  On the other hand, the JHSV can load all of the Navy's small warboats.  Gee go figure~

ewok40k said...

Unlimited wars in the era of nukes tend to end badly (Ever heard of MAD?) unless you are using hammer to smash a third world moaquito. (...and end up doing more damage in the process than the mosquito would do)

Redeye80 said...

AW1,
Mark my words, the JSF will be the last manned fighter we buy.  As other aviation assets reach the end of thier service life they will be replaced with an unmanned variant or that mission set will be left open and unfilled.

We already have the recent history of engaging enemies of the state with no commitment of ground troops thus limited the political fallout of losing people. 

Just remember as some point all these machine will become aware, then the fun begins.  SkyNet is not a far from reality.

LT B said...

They were busy keeping metrics on skin color.

butch said...

A Bessette LSV makes MUCH more sense as a riverine support vessel.

Bill said...

I know. My pops was the NRDUV field engineer that took all the "newest" flechette warheads over (in '68?) to show the ordnance guys how well they worked. ;)   But seriously..I believe they have been removed from the approved load lists. 

DeltaBravo said...

Апэйч моря would be my first guess....

ewok40k said...

Chornaya akula (Black shark - a market name for the Ka-52...)

James said...

Libya-limited war.

There are people you can have rules with. China, russia, etc.

Insane jihadist f**ks? No.

There is a difference between unlimited warfare and absolute genocide and extermination.

James said...

Yep AH-1Z cobra is awesome. Not to mention it uses what 85% same parts as the UH-1Y?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_UH-1Y_Venom

Therapist 1 said...

The SEALs had the Sea Wolf squadron of Vietnam and they saved their bacon a number of times.

Anonymous said...

If we have a great need for a ship launched attack helicopter, why not just use the Cobra or Viper instead?
They already exist and can conduct ship operations.