Friday, September 10, 2010

Severn SITREP III - The Professor's Take

Now and then Professor Bruce Fleming from USNA provides his angle on the goings on at Annapolis. After the video and the policy - he decided to offer a guest post. The opinions below, and the rest of the post, are all his.
The recent SITREP SEVERN blowup—the embarrassing video posted on YouTube by two midshipmen of color acting goofy and dumb (kindest description)-- has produced a response from the USNA PAO that reveals the inner workings of the hype factory the Naval Academy has become now that “diversity is our #1 goal” (CNO) and we want to play football with schools whose students don’t even have to graduate, much less be military officers. The defensible and indeed honorable thread of this “Midshipman USNA Social and Internet Media Guidance” is the good point that “USNA midshipmen must always remember that they represent those Sailors and Marines on active duty as well as those veterans and alumni who have served our nation honorably.” It’s morale-busting, in my translation, for the enlisted folks to know their officers are doofuses.
But the not-so-defensible thread of the “Guidance” is sheer fright that the truth will come out about the mixed bag that is the student body at the current US Naval Academy. Yes, our highs are high (Rhodes Scholars etc.) but the lows are even lower (300s on SAT, many failed USNA courses—typical of some of t the football players with the highest level of national hype) and the average is not particularly impressive. “The underlying intent of this guidance [huh? says the English prof; intent of a guidance?] is that participants not discredit themselves, the Naval Academy, or the naval service.” Not discredit the Naval Academy—it’s right there as a major goal. What this means is, keep the hype flowing: don’t show the taxpayers, who pay $377,000 for each student (these figures from the USNA PAO office), or the sailors and Marines you will be leading, just how incompetent you really are, because then they’d ask difficult questions like this: Why is it we keep the academies when they’ve become so dysfunctional and produce officers no better than the much cheaper ROTC option (1/4 as expensive on average)? THESE MIDSHIPMEN ARE GOING TO LEAD TROOPS???
Unfortunately the students in the video are more representative of the average midshipman that most people even dare think. Academically, on an average (i.e. I don’t mean the top 20% here), midshipmen are no great shakes. The last official class profile (put out by the PAO’s office) that even mentioned SAT scores was for the Class of 2012. It revealed that almost 1/3 (30%) of the overall class (all colors, recruited athletes included) was below 600 in verbal ability, and almost 1/5 (18%) in math. (For the Class of 2003, the % under 600 were 26 math, 14 verbal, so we’ve let these slide as minority recruitment has ramped up in the last decade.) The Profile for the class of 2013 gave up on absolute SAT score numbers, and compared only black scores to black scores and Hispanic to Hispanic: “African Americans average top 6% for all college bound African American Students.; Caucasians average top 11% for all college bound Caucasian students” (in my world ‘college-bound’ is written with a hyphen, says the English prof.). So actually the black students are smarter than the white, right? What they don’t tell you is that the black average is 100 pts lower on each SAT part, ca 430 vs 530, and almost no blacks score in the 700s, so top 6% average is still in the low 500s. And low to mid-600s SAT scores, which is the white USNA (and USMA) average, are about on par with Pepperdine University, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, or Gettysburg College.
These are solid schools, but the hype surrounding USNA insists that all our students turned down the Ivy League—whose average SAT scores are low 700s. For minorities we’ve basically given up on SAT scores. A FOIA request by USNA grad Dave Quint analyzed in this column revealed that 75% of midshipmen of color got SAT scores below 600, vs. 25% of white midshipmen. Actually 600 is supposed to be our cut-off for white midshipmen too, but of course we have to staff the teams, or think we do, and want them to win over major state universities with no pretenses to standards and no stake in what their graduates become—if they graduate.
Did midshipmen at least do well in high school? The Profile for the classes of 2013 and 2014 found bragging rights in saying that 91% of the class was in the top 40% of their high school class—i.e. that about 500 midshipmen Academy-wide were at the halfway point of their HS classes or below. (Many of the numbers for the classes of 2013 1nd 2014 were suspiciously identical.) You don’t have to be very bright or work very hard to be, say, 1/3 of the way down the pack at most American high schools these days.
So if we don’t have smarter students than Gettysburg or RPI, at least we have leaders, right? Well, look at the video. Talk to the students off the record. That’s just what the Public Affairs office wants to make sure you don’t do. For recruits, sports or racial, leadership plays no role whatsoever. And minorities are above 1/3 of the class. It’s still true that the competitive white students (about half the class) have to show some high school leadership positions to get a decent Whole Person Multiple (disregarded for athletes and minorities). And we do recommend an interview with a Blue and Gold officer, but it’s not mandatory, it’s not scored, and even a negative report won’t keep you out. And (to put it mildly) not all the competitive white students are charismatic studs: things like geography and connections play a role in admissions too. My summary of 24 years teaching here is that 20% of midshipmen show the kind of leadership charisma that outsiders think is typical of closer to l00%. If you can’t see them when they’re being real, how will you ever know?
No, Professor Fleming does NOT believe that “only academics matter” (a frequent charge). But the proof that we have a special kind of student cannot be based on circular reasoning: that they’re here at USNA. Sure they put up with nonsense other college students don’t, have demands made on their time that other college students don’t, suffer a loss of liberty other college students don’t. Does this mean they alone possess a quality other college students don’t? No. All it means is that they tolerate “noise” with no proven officer-building qualities. (ROTC officers are more prevalent in the fleet by a factor of two, apparently just as good, and didn’t have to do come-arounds.) To repeat: it’s circular to say that the proof that USNA officers-to-be are better/more disciplined/better leaders/have more oomph than whatever your comparison group is (ROTC, OCS officers, normal college students), is that they are at USNA. Don’t just point to what we do: justify it. In fact, a lot of it can’t be justified at all, and much of it is actually negative, the trash of decades. We have to begin scraping off the barnacles to see if we still have a serviceable hull left.
Still, the rest of the world seems to buy the hype. USNA is the school that high school guidance counselors think the most of, according to US News. Not Harvard, or Oberlin. USNA. And even the overall rank of 16 in the US News lineup isn't bad (my own alma mater, Haverford, is “only” #9).
A lot of this is the hype machine working: a large % of the USNA ranking is “prestige,” i.e. if we can convince the world we’re hot stuff and they buy it, they say it back to us. And some of it is the inflated numbers for applications that make us look wildly selective. These are more hype. When I was on the Admissions Board in 2003, we voted on only about 2K applications for about 1200 slots. I asked where the other 8K were—at that point they were claiming a 10/1 ratio for applications (a high ratio also gives us US News ranking points). A too-candid LCDR said, “that’s not completed applications, that’s initiated applications—can be by kids of any age.”
Data for the Class of 2003 (not available for any more recent class, surely not accident: these profiles have become less and less informative as the years have gone on) listed 10,145 applications of which 1,814 were qualified, and 1,511 were admitted for a class of 1,232. For the class of 2014 we got the same 10K non-minority applications, and half again as many of minority applications alone, for a total of about 15K. (US News still lists a 10% acceptance rate.)Remember: a vote of “qualified” requires merely B grades (not hard to get at public HS these days), and 600 SAT minimum (lower for minorities), which is nationally in the upper 70s%. If only 18% of your applicants—class of 2003-- got that, the either a) they weren’t real applications or b) the applicant level is abysmal. We’ve shown we can get people to apply (or initiate applications) by getting 5K minorities to do so in the last year or so (a huge upswing). What’s gained by trolling for unqualified applications? Or maybe the LCDR was right; they aren’t real applications. The reality is that not even twice as many people who are capable of meeting even our newly-lowered standards apply to USNA as get in. I’m sure that Harvard could fill three or four other comparable classes with the kids they reject. We can’t.
Why does the truth about the Academies matter? To begin with, they’re paid for by taxpayer money. And if we insist that they’re perfect as they are, we’ll never be able to improve them. Most fundamentally, if we mistake seeming to be a competent officer for being a competent officer (or officer-in-training) we endanger the lives of our troops. There are advantages to USNA: small classes, focus on military mission, a few truly motivated midshipmen. All this is being compromised by the fact that the place has lost sense of its real mission. I’m speaking here for the small number of stud-hot motivated hell-hound midshipmen I have the joy to be around: they’re the most disillusioned of all. We need some truth around here so we can focus on what USNA could be—and will never achieve so long as the hype keeps coming.
Looking good should not be our top priority, though the PAO’s “Guidance” shows the uncomfortable fact that it has become so.

92 comments:

LT B said...

He is forgetting that we are no longer producing or in need of officers dripping of warrior ethos and leadership.  We have become the global farce for good.  We strive for kumbayah-ness and dispense hugs, tickles and rainbows where ever we go.  Poor leadership will not get people killed as the world is a better place now that we are diverse, and have lower standards.  Grrrrr.  I think I just vomited in my mouth.  Happy Friday Porch-pack.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

You said a mouthful, young man.

In the 1930s and 40s, the Landing Party came with a Lewis Gun, BARs, and 03 Springfields, .45s, and grenades. 

Today the "Landing Party" comes with a volleyball, beach chairs, and straberry wine coolers on ice.

Dave Navarre said...

Oh, those are depressing numbers. I'd heard rumors that even white male midshipman basically had to try to get thrown out before they could be separated. That is, once you're in, you're an officer four years later whether you deserved it or not. I'd thought that at least the bar to get in was high, but if 1500 of 1800 real applicants get admitted (and 1200 start on I-Day) then the bar isn't very high at all.

bravozulu said...

"stud-hot motivated hell-hound midshipmen"

That's a mouthful!

In any case....an interesting analysis, one about which many mids will (and have) fought with the venerable prof tooth and nail. They may agree with many points but still cling to the hope that their beloved (love/hate relationship defined!) Academy may at some point be resuscitated by a fresh breath of honor, courage and commitment....

Anonymous said...

I knew a number of shipmates that were ac-unsat and scored poorly on SATs that turned out to be outstanding Officers.  Remember that USNA is about "well rounded" and I will take a 50-100 point drop in SATs compared to Harvard for an Officer that can talk to girls, cuss, and doesn't throw a ball like my 12 year old sister. 

With respect to the Professor, everyone that has a USNA diploma knows that every Mid finds their challenge at USNA.  It could be academics, professional knowledge, or just learning how to break the rules "the right way" to get the mission done.  Not many will say this, but I learned how to break the rules and not get caught so I never had to lie about it (and for the haters, when I did get caught, I stood up, maintained my honor, and took the damage).  I can tell you that intelligent rule bending has helped me lead a lot more than calculus has, and USNA taught me which rules were bendable and which shall never be flexed.  So, again, with respect, academics is a piece of the pie, but not as large as the good professor would like.

ender said...

Oops ^ that was me.  Didn't put my name on it...

Aubrey said...

Dispensing tickles and rainbows...soooooo, Eric Massa is the next CNO?

That's beyond a Global Force for Good....that is a Global Force for Something Else Entirely!

Tindril said...

<span>In the class of 2005, 23% of the mids had a SAT score less than 600 in verbal and only 12% had less than 600 in math. </span>
<span>
 
By 2012, 29.9% had a SAT score less than 600 in verbal and we were up to 18.1% with less than 600 in math.
 </span>
<span>
For the class of 2013, it was up to 33.6% with scores less than 600 in verbal!  22.3% had less than 600 in math! </span>


Now, my statistics is a little rusty, but that looks significant to me.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Nice jab URR.

Skipping the english prof's passion for proper punctuation, which should be drilled hard, but is not the be all and end all (IMHO), his comments on the NROTC are a very pretty compliment to the get-no-respect but-carry-on-anyway professionals who staff your local NROTC unit, not to mention the applicants and walk-ins who form the tiny detachments of MIDN USNR the aforementioned sailors and marines teach, mentor, and develop. So BZ NROTC.

Meanwhile back at Canoe U....

Accepting less than the best qualified as aspirants to a professional education does only one thing to the profession.  It lowers the competence of future practitioners. Which is what has been going on since "affirmative action" showed up.  It is NOT, therefore, particularly surprising that the overall output of the organization, i.e., the USN's readiness for prompt sustained victorious combat at sea on no notice...most specifically, maintenence, training, tactical expertise, engineering and logistic expertise, is slipping.

(Don't get me started on long range planning.)

The fix is simple, but hard to do. Persuade the congress-critters to search for the most intelligent candidates with some potential as leaders they can find to be their appointees.
Test them for basic physical health and a measure of physical fitness and leave the rest to the best former DI's in the Corps and the best officers and academics the Navy can assign/hire. Then keep the expectations high and the kids will rise to them. 

The other part, play ball in leagues appropriate to a school that cuts no slack for athletes, is equally simple and hard.

NROTC has a major advantage. They pick the best applicants out of this year's pool and then tell them to get admitted to the best schools that have the program. Congress stays out of it, mostly. "Premier program" can be a curse (another post, another time).

Enough blacks, or if you prefer, "non-whites"? Enough apply for the NROTC 4 year full ride scholarship, or wander in, to maintain a low profile. Reasonably demographically representative, it seems.

As for the NAG factory, just keep the river flowing through the stable, they'll clean up.

Skippy-san said...

I would say he nailed it. And it is not just USNA but the rot he describes is occurring at all of the nations military colleges to one degree or another. Agreat deal of the blame can be laid at the feet of lack of an effective plebe system. With no shared, common experience no camaraderie or pride develops
Which was all we natsayers would happen in 1976 and 1996.

Which

Anon said...

No worries. Between 2006 and 2010, we were still able to increase the minority Flag pool by 50%!!

DeltaBravo said...

That was a depressing read, Prof. Fleming.

I'm one of those who thinks the SAT should be the cutoff with a cursory look at grades.  The level of academic cheating in high school is so staggering that for some, an A average only means they knew who to copy from. 

I've met too many high school boys who were brilliant but bored to tears by the curriculum and saw no reason to try very hard.  And I've seen too many of those mature and become dependable adults.  Once they found their area of interest, Nellie bar the door!   A below-B average in hs for a guy with high SATs often indicates a diamond in the rough, and someone who had enough honor not to cheat his way through just to get high grades.

I shudder at the implications of the Professor's article in years to come.  Thanks to the Diversity Directorate and its misguided standards, it will be assumed in about 5 years time that any minority officer with a big honkin' ring on his/her finger is as dumb as a fence post.  And they'll be treated accordingly.   That will be based on the evaluations by experienced chiefs who will come to that determination in the first 4 minutes of meeting them.  I'd love to hear the swearing and note comparing in the goat locker.

QSPN said...

The competition for USNA appointments among white males from Northern Virginia is particularly fierce (as it is in certain other geographic areas in the country).  Many of these candidates can't get into USNA directly from high school with 1400+ SAT scores, 3.5+ GPAs, varsity athletics, etc.  Some of this is due to geographic discrimination.

Professor Fleming is intimately familiar with at least one midshipman from Northern Virginia who did get in with those credentials, and probably can attest to the high quality of those candidates from his experiences in the classroom and on the Admissions Board.

Similar geographic discrimination is rumored to occur against both college-bound white males and females from Northern Virginia when attempting to get into the University of Virginia and other state colleges (especially against white females).  And it has long been suspected that many highly selective colleges, including Ivy League institutions, have a quota system that puts a cap on the number of student accepted from certain high schools--in paticular, the Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Northern Virginia.  Fortunately, Haverford doesn't seem to have such a cap.  ;)

DeltaBravo said...

I have found this to be true also.  Great post.  How many such applicants were among the 14,200 who were denied admission in 2009?  How galling for them to see what WAS accepted to become a Naval Officer when they were turned down.

Those coming from the Northern VA area have it particularly hard.  Many of the best candidates are rooted in cities and towns far from that area.  They are there because their families followed a long family military tradition and the parent/s have reached higher rank and Pentagon/Quantico postings.   That coincides with junior's 18th birthday and graduation.  THAT candidate KNOWS what he/she is getting into.  And embraces that life.  And has prepared for that academically.  But the music stops at the Northern VA chair and it's time to apply.  And so they are weeded out.  Maybe military families should have the option of applying through the congressional office of their home state, not the state where junior happens to be in high school because his parents were on a Pentagon tour.

QSPN said...

NROTC does NOT always pick the best candidates.  The selection process has been made more subjective, making it harder to pinpoint when a lesser candidate (under a more objective standard) has been chosen over a better one.  That change to the selection process is not accidental.

When an NROTC recruiter was called to ask about the status of a particular application (to assess the candidate's chance for a scholarship), the recruiter's first question--before looking at the record--was about the candidate's extra-curricular activities (ECAs).  I would have thought the first two questions would have been about grades and SAT scores, but those are objective criteria.  ECAs are much more subjective.

In response to the ECA question, the caller indicated that the candidate was an All-American athlete in track.  The recruiter stated that should help his chances.  Ya think?

Skippy-san said...

<span>I would say he nailed it. And it is not just USNA but the rot he describes is occurring at all of the nations military colleges to one degree or another. Agreat deal of the blame can be laid at the feet of lack of an effective plebe system. With no shared, common experience - no camaraderie or pride develops . 
Which was what all we naysayers said would happen in 1976 and 1996.  </span>
<span></span>
<span></span>

Andrewdb said...

I'm reminded of Lake Woebegone (back when it was still funny), where everyone is above average.

The Good Professor is correct about the USNews ratings be so heavy on "prestige" - surveys show Princeton Law School is rated as extremely prestigious, although Princeton doesn't actually have a law school.

Anon said...

If the bad apples infuriated the team as much as anyone else, what did the team do to turn them around?  We talk about how athletic programs develop leadership - did the team show any?

Anon said...

If the bad apples infuriated the team just like they did the rest of the Midshipmen, what did the team do to turn those individuals around?  We talk about how athletic programs develop leadership - did it?

BTW, I'm okay with a little threatening of failing athletes.  Hopefully it might bring a little reality back into their life.  In my time the football team was horrible, and still received plenty of benefits, while it was only good grades that kept me from getting seperated.

Anon said...

First rule of breaking the rules, you have to know what the rules are.  While you might have been smart enough to know how to break the rules, I think the professor is stating the present crop hasn't reached the point where they are smart enough to know the rules.

DG said...

Eliminating the nomination system would be helpful to all concerned and remove one of the factors that can lead to substandard selectees. The USCG Academy does do nominations, and they get along just fine.

Of course, I'm also for eliminating sports, except for intramurals.

Anonymous said...

I hope that the CNO, The Sup, The 'Dant, The Board of Visitors, and The leadership of the USNA Alumni Association read this. 

Annapolis can, and should be, on par with an Ivy League.  The implications of the statistics quoted by Prof. Fleming are deeply distressing to me, a proud alumni and proud Naval Officer. 

LT Rusty said...

I was one of the bored kids in high school with a high SAT.  I was ranked about 26th or 27th in my class ... of 29.  College just wrenched me 180 degrees, though - I was on the Deans List for 6 of 8 semesters, and got my NROTC scholarship after first semester of my freshman year.

Wish I'd worked harder at high school, though.

LT Rusty said...

1995-1996 was still a real plebe year for our school, Skippy.  The first few days of it were a little touchy-feely, but once the media went away it got back to business - and pain - as usual.  It was 1996-1997 that it really started to ease up some, and by ... I think it was class of 2004 or 2005 maybe, they weren't even bracing in the mess hall anymore.

Midshipman said...

All of this just saddens those like myself who wake up everyday thinking not for self but for country, and who have a sense of integrity and what it means to wake up in Bancroft Hall everyday. I work my butt of everyday to become the best I possibly can for those sailors I will lead in the fleet come 8 months. Oh by the way, I am a varsity athlete on one of the "top 3" varsity teams here. I will bust my ass on the field everyday, come back to the hall black and blue to tackle hours of homework, all for what? To give whatever I need to for my country. This whole PAO and video non-sense just saddens myself, and my fellow classmates to death.

Skippy-san said...

We started with 790 (including 50 Iranians). We finished with 396. The reason I feel so strongly about having a stong 4th class system is that it really creates a bond with you and your classmates-and drives off a lot of people who are not committed. That was what the women said they wanted-just the same experience as the men. Then they set about changing it. My class has some really great guys and the amazing thing is that we can meet after a 5 years of not seeing one another and pick right up where we left off. Somehow I don't see that at USNA.

You guys had it hard because of the fat pig who shall not be named here-intials SF. I still can't quite forgive Conroy for paying her way through college elsewhere.

And it is interesting-everyone tells the story of Chris Mace-but nobody talks about the Czech girl, who got her education funded by Citadel Alumni.

YNSN said...

Professor, you are wrong about one thing.  It is not moral that is hurt by knowing that officers are, at best human and at worst stupid.  It hurts disicipline. 

If an Enlisted Sailor knows that their DIVO is slutty on the weekends, can't hold their boose in liberty ports, or is only an officer because of their skin color.  We will question them, doubt them and do as much as we can not to follow them. 

There are not many officer secrets that do not make it to enlisted eyes and ears.

And by the way.  For the Seaman to Admiral program a Sailor MUST make 500/500 SAT scores.  There are 300s in the USNA?  Wow.  No wonder very few DIVOs wear their rings anymore.

YNSN said...

One more point:

The only thing that separates those at the USNA from those enlisting in the Navy is the lottery of life.  When it all comes down to it, those 18-22 year olds have more in common with junior enlisted than they do with officers in the Fleet. It is only a matter of time before something else like this happens to anyone of any race at the USNA.  Unless they ban MIDNs from using social apps, they cannot stop it.  Rather, they can only hold standards.

Salty Gator said...

DB, I am with you 100%.  It has been one of my points since the beginning WRT the Diversity Directorate.

BoatSchoolAttendee said...

These two excuses for Midshipmen WILL most likely get retained, and WILL most likely be United States Military Officers. It is without question, however, that their junior enlisted will see right through them. These girls will be an ABSOLUTE poison to any wardroom this navy has the misfortune of letting them sit in on. This goes for a select few other midshipmen no different than these girls.

Please folks, remember that there are MIDS out there that still hold true to the values of the US Naval Academy, that taxpayers, sailors, and marines alike can and will truly be proud of. 

Salty Gator said...

I went to GW (NROTC), and when we had our fellow mids up to parties, they couldn't talk to girls to save their lives.  Nor could they figure out how to cook, do their own laundry, balance a checkbook, or figure out many other fairly-adult activities.  They drank until they were passed out, they made asses of themselves, but they made it home in time for sunday liberty expiration.

I'm sure there are a few mids who know how to talk to girls, but I'm still wondering about the cooking, laundry and checkbook things....

Veritas said...

Agree, but, sadly, they will also be wearing the ring -- which use to mean something.  But am I to then consider "these two excuses for Midshipmen" on par as "fellow alumni"?  How do I distinguish between those from the classes from the mid-2000s forward (when things really went over the cliff) who "hold true to the values" of USNA, etc., versus those who are a complete embarassment?  Is the default to place all of you in the latter category and, only with time, determine that you are in the former?

Now, granted, all 1013 (+/-) who graduated with me were not in the category of holding true to the USNA values.  However, the breadth of the problem was clearly not as bad way back then as it is today and it was definitely a small minority.

G-man said...

To paraphrase 2nd Samuel 1:25:  "How the mighty have fallen in battle. Integrity lies dead on the hills".

And ONLY $377K to produce such vapid blivets?  Hopefully a copy of the video precedes those 2 to each and every command in their (hopefully) short career.

C-dore 14 said...

Mid, Hang in there and remember, there is life after the Naval Academy.

Mid Mom said...

There are enough mid parents who HAVE seen to it. Some of those "skills" are parenting issues more than anything else.

SCPO said...

<p><span><span>Midshipman, </span></span>
</p><p><span> </span><span> </span>
</p><p><span><span>Just realize you will have an enlisted force that may be just as educated and possesses more leadership skill than a freshly minted USNA grad. <span> </span>Case in point (and not to blow smoke up your ass) I have a BA and an MBA, granted not from the USNA, however from reading this professor's thoughts I may be lucky that I do have 20+ years of experience coupled with my degrees to back it up and not from the USNA.<span>  </span>In short you will be tested by enlisted Sailors and trained by Chief Petty Officers and as previous posters have stated...you will not be able to fool us. <span> </span>Leadership by example is still the basis of any leader regardless of rank E1 to O10. </span></span>
</p>

Mid Mom said...

30 years ago, I graduated from a school that, once upon a time, was part of the Big Ten. Then a new president comes in, says we're academic not athletic, and we dropped to Div. III sports. The University of Chicago has done fine since. We enjoy our football, but we don't worship it. (That's saved for the library, for better or for worse.)

Be radical. Drop the Div ! stuff. Re-focus on that which matters. We'll still beat Army. ;)

Grotopotamus said...

Amen, Mid Mom. Amen.

C-dore 14 said...

Professor Flemming has revealed another of USNA's dirty little secrets, the difference between the total number of applications and those from "qualified" applicants.  My questions are, when in the process does the physical screening take place and what is the number of academically qualified persons failed to be accepted for that reason?  I used to see folks declared "NPQ" for having used a bronchial inhaler after the age of 10.

NROTC didn't conduct the physical screening until after the individual had been selected for the program and I always started the year with 2 or 3 incoming students who were awaiting the results of appeals so they could receive their scholarships.

C-dore 14 said...

Attendee, I would hope that instead of collectively throwing up their hands and saying that nothing can be done that the Administration, the Brigade leadership, and (dare I say it?) their peers will set about developing these women into decent officer material.  You have two years left to accomplish this.

Skate said...

The nomination process was created by Congress. It belongs to the Congress, not to USNA (or USMA or USAFA).  It isn't going away.

C-dore 14 said...

DG, Eliminating the Congressional nomination process might help but it won't solve the problem of "subjective selection".  NROTC doesn't have a nomination process but the results of its boards are subject to arbitrary (or politically correct) decisions by CNET staffers.

Moreover, it's unlikely that congress will ever do away with one of its privileges.  

Byron said...

NO and <span>HELL NO</span>. Annapolis is the breeding ground for professional Navy officers. I don't give a rat's ass if they are academically par with the freakin' Ivy League, I care that these young men and women leave ready to assume the position of officer in the greatest Navy to sail the seven seas. I care that they understand that the lives of the enlisted that will salute him at quarters will be in good hands. I care that they have learned the intergrity to stand up for their people when something goes to hell. I care that they understand that they MUST lead from the front, because pushing from behind just gets you nowhere.

Mids should have a solid background in practical engineering and understand theory. They must understand basic navigation (ANY officer can and has become the CO). They must have a solid background in ancient and modern history. And do I care if they ace African-American Studies? Take a wild guess. And for Gods sake, make sure they're not cowards, either moral or physical; nothing will rot a crew worse than a cowardly officer. Man or woman, they better have the balls that go with the job.

C-dore 14 said...

ender, Agree.  Have known plenty of "high stripers" who failed miserably as officers as well more that one Ac Board veteran who succeeded.  When I visited USNA just before my retirement, the Reviewing Officer of the P-rade was a classmate who had just received his third star.  When they read the bio that he'd provided they noted the VADM XXXX had "graduated in the top 75% of his class".  Some folks just take a little longer to develop than others.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

QSPN:

If ECA means Band, Debate, Thespian, Science Fair Winner, Order of the Arrow/Scouts/Explorers, Student Government, 4H/FFA, CAP, Candy Striper, as well as athletics and cheerleading, fine. All are examples of leadership, discipline and striving for excellence.

Being a Jock with a good GPA is an achievement.  Just being a super Jock...never met one who was much of a Naval Officer. Kind of like 3rd generation at the USA, not necessarily handicapped by a overdeveloped sense of self entitlement, but under suspicion.

As to the ground truth of the class of 13, I'm just an old over the hill silver back. So I take aboard your report from the scene with respect and a measure of disappointment. I still retain some hope for the USNA and NROTC despite all the naysaying.

NROTC isn't perfect, but their grads have moved up steadily in reliability of advancement
and the esteem of their subordinates and peers over the last half century, and are now peers and worthy competitors with any commissioning source. And the USNA is salvagable.

Leadership. You have to practice it daily to teach it.

Byron said...

That's a fact, ma'am.

Byron said...

Much like Nimitz, who as I recall wasn't all that great with the books?

C-dore 14 said...

QSPN, Agree that NROTC has become more subjective over the years but, unless things have changed, the NROTC Recruiter has very little to do with the actual selection of a candidate.  Scholarships are awarded after a selection board of current unit COs and XOs debate the applicant's record and the CNET staff reviews the results.  On the boards I was a member of sports were considered separately from ECAs.  Interestingly, a candidate with good grades, good SATs, and an after school job (especially if they had some responsibility at that job) were very competitive.

LT Rusty said...

Nancy Mace, you mean?  The one whose daddy was commandant when the rules about graduation timeframe changed, so she HAD to graduate before the Czech girl?  


Incidentally, that 'Czech girl,' Petra Lovetinska.  Really great girl.  My junior and senior year - I was '99, she was '00 - I counted her as a friend.  Although it was entertaining when she stood guard as a knob at the gate of Padgett-Thomas to make her say 'Boris, kill moose and squirrel!' with that accent.   :)

As far as attrition being the mission ... I think we were 653 at the start of knob year, and graduated with ... ~350-360.  I can't remember the exact number anymore.

LT B said...

I used to tell my students the same thing.  We had a 2-star come in one day and make their eyes pop open wide when he started breathing fire and telling them to "not be THAT ensign."  The arrogant SOB ring knocker.  They didn't believe me as I was not of their ilk.  Was not a boat school man.  He, however, was. 

SCPO said...

<p><span><span>Now this is the type of person that should be receiving commissions in the US Military:</span></span>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/10/AR2010091002712.html</p>

Anonymous said...

And Nimiz, as a JO, even ran a ship aground.  He certainly taught him that one can learn from one's error and improve tremendously.  I've heard it with him haven been given a second chance himself after grounding the ship, that his leadership style was willing to give other a second chance, too.  Thus, when he took over PACFLT after Pearl Harbor, he didn't clean ship completely -- he wisely gave the staff, etc., their second chance.

Of course, with these idiot girls and their video, my understanding is they've had their second, third, fourth, . . . chance.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

NOT the CNO's priority....

Anonymous said...

The "fence posts" you speak of don't wear their rings. IMHO, the vast majority of recent alumni that wear their rings are the same MIDN that showed at least some level of commitment to the core values of the navy.

QSPN said...

I completely agree with your take on ECAs.  However, the ground truth is that many college applicants pad their resumes with complete garbage that is counted as an ECA.  For example, a young lady at a local high school went to class with a candy bar, asked one of her classmates if he was hungry, got a positive response, gave him the candy bar, and then added "Fed the Hungry" to her resume.  I wish I was kidding.  How does a college admissions board or NROTC selection board differentiate between that scam and a member of a Boy Scout Troop that regularly spends several hours preparing, delivering, and serving food at a homeless shelter, as another one of her classmates did?

In addition to adding subjectivity to a selection process, the name of the ECA can directly or indirectly suggest an applicant's diversity (or lack thereof).  In other words, being a member of the Supporters of the Hekawi Indian Tribe may be enough to move an application to the head of the line.  I believe this was an important motivation behind the increased emphasis on ECAs.

One other scam that is quite popular among college applicants is to improperly claim special status.  If a student self-identifies as Hispanic, for example, they will garner the associated benefit even if their name sounds Hispanic because their family is originally from Madrid.  And many, if not most, application processes prevent the selection committee from even questioning an applicant's self-identification.

FYI, the All-American track athlete had a 4.0+ GPA and 1500+ SAT scores.  He turned down an appointment to USNA in order to accept an NROTC scholarship at a school where performance, not diversity, is the number one priority.

DM05 said...

"Why is it we keep the academies when they’ve become so dysfunctional and produce officers no better than the much cheaper ROTC option (1/4 as expensive on average)"? No truer words were spoken Prof. Fleming. I know how hard I work for my $$ that the f'ing gov't taxes too much, to put $377K into producing 1 officer who may or may not be above average and stay for a career? GMAFB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skully96 said...

I have a heavy heart when I read this articles about my school.  I think this is definitely an indicator that the Navy is adrift.  We seem to be moving away from being the world's most powerful Navy to just a bigger Coast Guard that does a lot of humanitarian missions.  I think it is time we got back to basics and military standards.  I can tell you the standards are hard to enforce when your juniors feel entitled to everything and your seniors don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and we need to be sensitive to everyone's issues and diversity.  I have often discussed this with my father and he keeps telling me that we will face a major challenge someday soon and things will swing back.  I guess we will see.

geosar said...

As a Navy grad-Army Dad I have to say that West Point has done a magnificent job in making my son a student after four years and more importantly molding him into a very impressive leader of a very well trained platoon of scout soldiers. Compared to my USNA experience and career, I am in awe of my son-the person I wish I had been.  Do not dismiss all of the academies.

DM05 said...

There are many alums that cherish the school, and there is no better piece of real estate. Been there, it's gorgeous. I just ask us to do the math and look at the results as the good Prof has done; many of as taxpayers look askew at stories like this and must ask why.  Yes, really. That's nice yours has had a great experience; mine likely would not have been welcome, not being a diverse football play. Please keep in  mind we all paid for it, and must look at the cost-benefit to the war fighting machine as well. Peace.

Anonymous said...

One girl many chances; the other girl never been in trouble.

Actus rhesus said...

You do realize that our current campaigns are not in countries with a strong naval presence and those "humanitarian" efforts you dismiss have a direct strategic impact on future theaters, right?

glab said...

Share.  How does Sierra Leone, The Gambia, Peru, Indonesia scale up strategically as partners based on US aid missions?

Curtis said...

Idealism in you?

For earlier words written, I beg your pardon.  I was ired.

I agree with you.

Curtis said...

Not really the job of Midshipmen to do the work of the Brigade and the officers in charge.  How exactly could they do that?

Curtis said...

Concur.

From what I experienced at the second remote, Plebe year at USMA created a Band of Brothers.  It's been 53 years now and those guys are unchanged in their regard for their classmates.  Some did not go the distance but they still come to the class reunions and are welcomed as firmly as the ones that went all the way before retiring.

Curtis said...

DB,

The student is allowed to ask for a Presidential nomination in some cases.  Also can ask for nomination from the state in which he/she is going to High School and also from the state of Permanent Residence.  It's not really a closed application process so much as one that refines its intake based on race and socio-economic status.  That's a killer.

Imagine that you scored a 1600 (old style that was the max) on the SAT.

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, The Midshipman are supposed to be in charge of the day to day functioning of the Brigade under the guidance of active duty officers who are Company and Battalion Officers.  This involves formations, parade performance, room inspections, etc.  It's part of their training.  Under a perfect system the squad and platoon leaders should be monitoring the performance and improvement of their subordinates in a number of areas.

If that's not the way it's working then the Commandant and his subordinates probably need to consider why it isn't.

Byron said...

Curtis, that is not idealism; it is the bare minimum required for an ensign. Almost everything else, save the ability to read and write clearly is bullshit and means next to nothing when they get to the Fleet. Oh...and they better be smart enough to latch on to their CPO with their ears open and their mouths mostly shut.

Skully96 said...

I understand the postive PR from these humanitarian missions, but is that what the Navy should be about?  I understand a "Global Force for Good" is the new PR line,  but when did the Navy become more concerned about the world's issues than our national interests?  I think we should be more concerned about showing the flag and power projection ashore when we are threatened.  The Navy should be "Flying the American Flag where ever needed" and not bailing out every third world country.  Unless of course ithe goal is turn us into a third world Navy, and that goal is being acheived with our current status.

Curtis said...

Hard to believe you weren't ever Fleet.  I was the luckiest of all Ens.  I had an ENC, MMC and MRC that put paid to their peers.  Two of them were presentation EOOW during OPPE.  THE VERY BEST.  Learned a lot from them.  Stood me in good stead all my remaining years with Fleet.
Mouth refused to remained zipped since that was not my job and I had 21 colateral jobs.  The one chief was routinely referred to by his peers (not me) as Junkyard and nobody dared to refer to the MRC by other than his name in my hearing.  He chewed MIDEASTFORCE Staff Officer ASS like it was going out of style, direct and in person and in their face.

I kind of modeled myself on them.  They were good men, good leaders.  Thanks to them I had a wonderful 26 years.

Curtis said...

Sir,

I think we have to accept the fact that this model is no longer in effect and has not been for several decades.  It's over man.  The only ones running the zoo these days are the flag officer and every single soul knows that to be true there.  My experience there is limited to sailing against them and observing the continuing decline of their skill, character and leadership over the last 30 years.  The Food Officer was a Call Girl!!!!

Yes, at one time the Brigade ruled on honor, duty and conviction but that hasn't been true since Vietnam.  Every single lot of them ruled to shunt the last bastard out and the 3 star set it all aside until the football coach decided enough was enough with that dirtbag, kicked him off the team and he was then left to the tender mercies of the smoochies at the naval academy.

There's something to be said about an institution when it becomes known mostly for accomodating dirtbags, rapists, call girls and the kind of officers that tolerate such.

Curtis said...

no no, that's the EOD det.  :)

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, Having had somewhat closer contact with the Brigade than you during my career I have to disagree.  USNA Mids should be (and generally are) held accountable for the performance of the people in their squads, platoons, companies, etc. like officer trainees are in every other training command.  A few years back one of my former DHs was a Battalion Officer there and that's how he ran his Battalion.  I got the impression that he wasn't the only one doing things that way.  I will grant you that decision making has tended to migrate upward, as last year's color guard fiasco demonstrated, but now would be a perfect time to force it back downwards where it belongs.

Even if you are correct, so what?  The 3-star responsible for overruling the Honor Board is gone as are the past two Commandants, and the Call Girl FSO.  The new Supe has a mandate to fix the Honor Program and, I'd bet, many other things as well.  The fact that his predecessor was fired will tend to focus his mind.  My point is that the new leadership has an opportunity to set the standards, communicate them, and hold the midshipmen accountable.  Again it's part of their training.  If I was able to do it at an NROTC unit, I suspect they'll be able to do it at USNA.

LT B said...

Friday afternoon news release backs up that statement.  Just like when they bury the unemployment numbers or release some news about shameful acts or bills being passed.  That does not give the young man his due.   

Southern Sailor said...

In regards to dealing with these two miscreants.  They should be removed from the academy and ordered to fulfill their service obligation in the enlisted ranks.  That's the norm for STA-21 students who become undeserving of a commission for whatever reason.

It's also nice to see that, while perfectly eligible for the Academy (academics and leadership experience), well...aside from posessing inadequate amounts of melanin, I will never step foot through those halls.

Actus rhesus said...

And assisting those third world countries has a direct strategic impact which unfortuntely I cannot get into the specifics of. However, it is well know that groups like the Tamil tigers are attempting expansion and fanatical Islam is making it's way to southeast Asia. Do the math.

Skully96 said...

Maybe we should confront radical Islam head on.  Just throwing a bunch of MRE's and cases of water at the problem is not going to win hearts and minds.  I used to think we should go out and confront the world's problems, but I think now we would be better off supporting our true allies, bring the Army home to guard our borders and strengthen the Navy to meet the threats overseas.  Tell our enemies "you attack Americans, the Navy will be pulling up to reduce your country to rubble and then we will help you rebuild."  Not saying oh let us throw all this aid your way for nothing and then you can stab us in the back in a few years. 

Actus rhesus said...

Mass genocide tends not to go over as well in the age of global media. Just saying.

Skully96 said...

I agree genocide is horrible and should be stopped when we can (finishing and winning in Iraq is the right thing to do).  Are you working for Darfur against the Islamists that are killing there?  Are you working for Tibet as the Chinese work to displace and replace the Tibetans? Are you working for Burma and against the military government there?
I do think we should support those that rise up for freedom in their own country and we should support them fully with anything they need.  We should have support the people of Iran when they struggle against their leaders, but I do not think we need to bail our every country.  Why don't we let the UN try to do it?
Our long term interests would be better served by letting Europe pay for its own defense and letting the world see the UN for the failure it is.
I also think we need to defend our country first, such as the southern border, we need to stop ceding land to the drug lords there.

Actus rhesus said...

I'll make it real simple for you: doing a humanitarian mission makes us the good guys. One we have established ourselves as the good guys we send in guys in black pajamas to quietly and effectively deal with rising problems. We send in training teams of guys of guys with big guns to teach them how to do it themselves next time. We make them drink the cool aid that our way is the right way. We stabilize a region before it hits critical breakdown levels and keep insurgencies to a minimum because people with a roof and three squares are on the whole not interested in blowing themselves up for Allah. We are no longer in the age of sovereign satate vs so sovereign state warfare. We are fighting subgroups and humanitarian efforts and hearts and minds campaigns have a direct impact on our strategic missions. Ask any of the men downrange at the pointless end of the spear in the theaters you ARENt reading about in the news.

Skully96 said...

You make a good point but what do you do about the law abiding and "moderate" muslims that have a good job in a western country, but they don't mind sending "charity" money back for the cause.  How do you fight that?  I mean they are just sending some money for a cause they support even though they are living in western country.  And what about the underwear bomber?  He was living in a million dollar flat in London, he had a roof over his head, three squares a day and still wanted to blow us up.  I am not really concerned about the goat herder in Iran that is just trying to survive.  I am more worried about the German who wants some of that old time religion and Sharia law.  That person doesn't give a hoot that we are stabilizing regions around the world.  I personnally would like a lot more stabilization in our country too - like end entitlements, cuts taxes, reduce the size of government and let me live my life and raise my family my way.  Let us be an example to the world by having freedom in America and stop sending foreign aid that is wasted.  Foreign aid should be from American charities and not tools of the American ruling elites.
What is our strategic mission?  That is what we need to decide.

Skully96 said...

Another part of your post bothered me - "<span>We make them drink the cool aid that our way is the right way"  While I agree Liberty and the principles that make up Western Civilization are truly they way everyone should live, I don't think "make them drink the cool aid" is the answer.  That is just another form of Tyranny. Like I said before, if the people in a nation want freedom we support them completely.  If the people want to be communist, we isolate them and support the dissidents.  But going in there to force them to drink the cool aid is once again an overreach and will only foster hate of America.  I think the Progressives in this country are trying to force everyone to drink the "cool aid" and it is disgusting to see it here.
</span>

OldRetSWO said...

Bullshit!
Candidates can NOT get noms from multiple states.  They are limited to the state in which they are a legal resident.  Not the home of record of the military parent, not the state where they may be gonig to high school, they are only allowed to be nominated from within the state of THEIR legal residence (the candidate's).  Further, any son/daughter of career military is eligible for a presidential nomination.  I have been a blue and gold officer for 20 yrs and have seen a lot of noms be applied for. 
And living in an area of Northern NJ where there are many great high schools, I can tell you that it takes around 700's to be really competitive

ZF said...

Grandpa Bluewater and C-dore 14 have touched well on the key problems/some solutions. Keep academic entrance standards high for all ( no fudging for ANY reason ), let football schedule work its way to appropriate level, enforce uniform honor / conduct  standards for all.

I'm surprised that there has not been a class action law suit taking the Academy's entrance criteria to task. Recall the result when U of Michigan's 'affirmative action' program was challenged in court.

What does the Navy's four Sailors Of The Year (SOY) -- all female / three minorities -- say about the Navy's Diversity Program? --run to extreme?

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