Tuesday, December 27, 2011

Is Called a Rediness Assist


No worries here Dave; this is great news. May they deploy early and often; brother needs the readiness points.
The military’s latest secret assessment of China’s rapidly modernizing submarines has good news and bad news for the U.S. Navy. On one hand, the roughly 60 submarines in the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) fleet are spending more and more time on combat-ready patrols — signaling China’s increasing naval competence and growing seriousness about influencing the western Pacific Ocean.

On the other hand, the flurry of undersea activity gives American forces more opportunities to tail and examine Chinese subs. And U.S. analysts discovered a silver lining in the gathering strategic storm clouds. Chinese submarines are a hell of a lot noisier than anyone expected. The sound you hear is the Pacific balance of power tipping in Washington’s favor.
Hey ---- we need to break the adhesions that have built up since the early '90s, the complacency that comes from canned exercises, and the inattention to everything from sonobuoy inventories to LWT performance.

Hey - and who can complain about a submarine that can't turn off her augmenter?
Leaving aside the PLAN’s dozen imported Russian subs, new Chinese submarines can be detected at what’s known as the “first convergence zone,” a ring approximately 25 miles from an undersea vessel where outward-traveling sound waves pack close together.

During the Cold War, the U.S. Navy would arrange its own submarines in lines where each boat was 25 miles from the next, forming a sort of net to catch Soviet subs. With the introduction of the latest generation of quiet Russian diesel subs in the 1990s, the Americans thought that convergence-zone detection was no longer possible. But the Navy’s just discovered that China’s homemade subs are even louder than 20-year-old Russian boats. “Apparently they [U.S. subs] are making first convergence zone detections and holding them,” the analyst reports.
Now, where is my CZ Slide Rule?

Oh yea; here it is.

51 comments:

Brickmuppet said...

Hmmmm....
Polyanish much?
All well and good untill they disengage the plastic bicycle turbo from their shaft....right before they load the live torpedoes.

James said...

Well good and bad new sounds like fun for the Viking pilots..oh wait.

Wonder how well the japanese and RoK helicopter carriers are going to do hunting them.

Anonymous said...

Just sonify the water with a B-57 Sector Search.

Oh, wait. They probably dropped those from the inventory, too.

DeltaBravo said...

Now why would we tip our hand that we know how noisy they are? 

MR T's Haircut said...

hmm... we use WSM to do BG ASW nowadays...  Sonobouys are reduced to War Stock only do to cost and Airborne ASW crews in the SSC are not as "ready" as we would hope.  The Outer Zone ASW MPA is a red line acft with limited hours.  We dont have "Bear Trap" crews any longer... I would suspect we are pretty much already behind the curve with regards to the Prosecutions of any PLAN subs.. just saying... and how do we get around that ugly cruise missile and Sam threat?

Wharf Rat said...

exactly - 'loose lips sink ships'

Anonymous said...

I was thinking the exact same thing!  Can't these people keep their mouth shut!

Surfcaster said...

With our subs.

You go to war with what you have, not with what you used to have (Vikings, FFG, Spruance, non-bandied P3s, sonobuoys, & list goes on).

Naval_Historian said...

2 words: LAMPS III.

Byron said...

First CZ? Hmmmm.....

USSHelm said...

Well, it's not really tipping our hand, after all everyone knows that we know how noisy Russian boats are. Thus, it would seem likely that we know how noisy the PLAN boats are to.

Spade said...

Maybe we want them to know they can't hide. Leaks can be good or bad.

Anonymous said...

SH-60's with an upgraded Sonar Suite. I remember how in the Fleet we had UYS-1's in the 60B and the Reserves had UYS-2's in the H-2G.

Mike M. said...

Unfortunately quite possible.

xformed said...

I love a good sub hunt.  25 months of CDS (TACDESRON - the real we don't need no stikin' time ashore type) duty got me the know how, not to mention a Commodore who not only couldn't say no to anything, he was constantly findin other "opportunities" for us to sleep in the JO quarers on some new flagship.  But, being old and retired, I doubt there would be billets for guys like me....just sayin'

Speaking of augmenters...in 86, off Libya, we had a E-II dead to rights for about 4 days with two FFs...could even track her while they unrepped...then in a fracking instant, she was gone in the iso-thermal spring Med Ionian basin....and we next caught a sniff when they where outchopping about 2 weeks later.  Conicidence you say?  Has always bugged me....

MR T's Haircut said...

NH,

Not sure how up to date you are, but the LAMPS MK III concept is on the way out.  Fleet has gone to MH-60S/SH-60S for Vertrep in the HSC squadrons and the SH-60F and SH-60B are converting to SH-60R to the HMS squadrons.  HSL squadrons are soon to be a thing of the past. The problem is compounded by the way they deploy as a squadron now and are detached out of the Carrier or SCC.  Additionally, we dont train the MH-60s AW's in ASW anymore and the SH-60R AW's recieve their ONLY acoustic training at AW A school.  FASO's are gone and the CNATTU which are very intensive to Maintenance and less than stellar on tactics like the old FASO were, are not sufficient in my opinion to train the AW's in Rotary to be effective.  When they are not playing Starboard D and deployed on a cruiser or on the CV, the HMS guys are also practicing the more sexy CSAR. 

Dont bet the Farm on the Rotary guys, the potential is there, but the training realities exist.  I tried to stop this abortion from happening when I was in a position to influence, but I was a voice in the wilderness and was not effective.

MR T's Haircut said...

Guest, the old reserve squadron HSL-84 doesnt fly SH-2G any longer.  the Reserve LAMPS squadron is now HSL-60 Jaguars from Mayport, soon to be Jax.  HS-85 is now HSC-85 flying SH-60S.    Trying to figure out who is flying what and who crossed over to HSC vs HMS is like a SWO officser trying to figure out an 3M maintenance board...

MR T's Haircut said...

DB, the good thing is the Chinese are basically in 1970/80's technology here.  But in time they will be very very good at reducing the acoustic signatures.. hopefully, but I doubt it, that ONI and the Navy ASW guys will build a big enough library of signatures of these boats so we can exploit it.. but again, I doubt it.

cdrsalamander said...

Many moons ago ... many moons.

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

we tip our hand because this is most likely another cold war.  Land and water will be traded based on perceptions of strength.  showing that we still have a strategic and operational edge pays dividends when regional partners are examining whether or not they should abandon us and kiss the Chinese ring.

DeltaBravo said...

Interesting points of view all.   Time will tell.  But it's why I keep coming back to the front porch with y'all.

ewok40k said...

Well, good news as it is, but what would the noisiest sub in the world have to fear from an LCS with a wrong module?

MR T's Haircut said...

NH,
not sure how up to date you are with rotary ASW but the LAMPS MK III concept is on the way out.  The Navy is replacing all the HSL squadrons and SH-60B's and SH-60F's with the SH60R.  the CH-46 and SH-3G are replaced with MH-60S and the squadrons are now designated HSC for the Sierra and HMS for the Romeo.  The HSL and HS squadrons have merged into HMS and the HC and HCS squadrons merged into HSC.  The squadrons no longer det out as single detachments assigned to a praticular boat, rather the entire squadron deploys on the CVBG and SCC as a squadron and dets to individual boats depending on Air Tasking Orders. 
The AW's in MH60's community get training in a 42 day class in AW A school in the MH-60S.  NO ASW training is taught to these AW's.  the SH60R AW's atttend the full AW A school, but this is the ONLY acoustic training they receive before reporting to their squadrons.  The FASO's that taught advance ASW to the VP and HS / HSL squadrons back in the day, but that is no longer the case due to budget cuts and CNATTU absorbing FASO missions... I tried to fight this abortion when I was in a position of influence but the AW senior enlisted leadership sold this bag of ass to CNATRA and AIRLANT/AIRPAC and it became policy.  My concern was the lack of training, the concept of closed loop detailing that NEVER works, and the possibility of an AW from MH-60S being expected to perform as an Tactical AW and how the SCC would be supported.  We have a capability gap, a training gap and an experience gap.
One other dirty little secret of this program implementation, was that in some cases an entire HS/HSL squadron was redesignated as an HSC squadron, given SH/MH60S's and all of a sudden the AW's are no longer ASW crewman..
All of this was done in the embrace of consolidation and cost avvoidance.. it was total bullshit and in my opinion was a huge setback in core fundemental ASW training. 

MR T's Haircut said...

Byron, Second CZ.. they will have missile shooters are all over the water column to protect the subs.  in fact I would look for the Chinese subs by the presence of surface boats with SAMS and SSM's.  that is how they will protect their sub surface fleet.

MR T's Haircut said...

DB, they are pretty noisy.  The Chinese cant change that overnight.  These are boats with 70's technoolgy and drive trains.  We have a pretty extensive acoustic library on some of these, but we will need to spend more money and resources documenting these for tactical and strategic prosecution. 

MR T's Haircut said...

You want to stop this threat?  Simple:
1. Change the ROE.  Be as aggressive as the 6th Fleet was and the 2nd Fleet was in prosecuting these submarines.  Allow the decision to passively and then active prosecute be given to the SCC.
2.  Build our SOSUS network again, repair what exists and man the NOPF and SOSUS stations for strategic tipping so we can prosecute locally.
3.  Give the MPA community PRIMACY of this mission.  Appoint one of the 500 Admirals we have as the Director of ASW Strategy and Tactics.
4. Change AW A school training to include ONE common core course for all Naval Aircrew.
5. Bring back the FASO's
6. Spend the money on Sonobouy's.  Dont need fancy. the SSQ-53D/E and the SSQ-62 worked fine.. 
7. Enforce the TRAMAN for the wings.
8. Get the P-8 into production and demand faster turnaround
9. Be prepared to spend lots of money on acoustic intel gathering adn be prepared to lose aircrews.

ewok40k said...

Which means we could use some more ASuW capability as well... alas, where is the Harpoon replacement? Can we call Putin for some Yakhonts? :P
Luckily for our submarines, ADCAP works equally fine for both sub and surface targets :)

Old H-2 Guy said...

Excellent summary...... Thanks for the update - I had heard part of this, but not whe whole thing.

Old Nuke said...

I know how to run the plants, but never really got into the 'top sider' stuff except for ESWS (we had enough on our plate keeping 8 reactors online).

That being said, I bet you will start seeing UAVs and the like in the ASW roles.  Can a UAW fly a magnetometer?  Can a UAV listen or relay sonobuoy data?  I don't know.

LT B said...

MTH, that requires BBs.  Not Battleships, not little things shot out of air guns or in shotgun shells, but balls and bills.  We no longer spend money ont stuff like that, and no longer have the balls to actually play the game.  We have become a paper tiger and it will get worse after we get out of Afghanistan.  Just a forecast and you know forecasts are on average, only 85% accurate. 

MR T's Haircut said...

old Nuke,
I doubt UAV's will be doing ASW anytime soon.  Premium is on overland ISR mission.  UAV cannot drop Bouys and they are not going to single sensor a UAV with a MAD boom.  Additionally, you have to be able to control the UAV and that means you need to have a SATCOM or LDT/LOS terminal.  Cost is the problem.. plus you still need an Analyst to interpert the data...

MR T's Haircut said...

LT B, yep my brother..

MR T's Haircut said...

I used to love this scenario in the trainer.. we would drop to 200 feet and max egress speed at 120-125 kias, and the final checklist item is to kiss your ass good bye...

Mike M. said...

Actually, I think ASW is one area where unmanned aviation has a lot of potential.  Possibly by mating unmanned and LTA technology.  They don't call it Awfully Slow Warfare for nothing - and both unmanned and LTA are long-endurance technologies.  Yes, you have to interpert the data, but there's nothing new about that.

MR T's Haircut said...

Mike M,
The problem is the data link to the UAV.  It is GEO specific and that means the prosecution platform has to be in the same area as the Submarine.  Not possible at 3 CZ length or Choke Point ASW that you are attempting to santize or delouse before the CV goes through.  Also the presence of a UAV ALWAYS translates to something of interest to US forces and the presence of a US Navy asset if at sea.. kinda does away with the passive prosecution..

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Exercising the beaters and the elephants is all very well and from time to time they will bag a tiger, but the way to hunt tigers in the tall grass of Underbad is to breed and train a lot of your own tigers.

Bin said before, still true.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

And yes, Virginia, tigers cost a lot to train and care for.

Kinda like women...really expensive, especially when you get into breeding them.

Jim in Wisconsin said...

Why does the name of this congressman come to mind? Or, better question, why was this published?
http://www.ww2pacific.com/congmay.html

sid said...

Doesn't help that a significant ASW asset can get shut down with a boat hook....

Naval_Historian said...

I am *right now* current on HSL; Maintainence Department, not Ops. Aircrew still have the Weps School and we still go to Autec; SH-60B dets still are deploying to FFGs and CGs and will for the foreseeable future.

cdrsalamander said...

1. Bandwidth.
2. Sensor load and diversity.

cdrsalamander said...

Awwww come on.  No big deal.

http://www.youtube.com/v/EV5q_mlhaiM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="170" height="140

Byron said...

Mr.T, kinda does away with the advantage that subs have...stealth...if you have missile shooters providing top cover for the subs. If the shooters are that close, then they don't need the subs...they can stand off a lot further than the second CZ and just lob big fast missiles at us instead of sending noisy REDBOATs at us.

Best defense against noisy subs? Another sub....

Acquisition Specialist said...

I have not played with a CZ Slide Rule in 20 years but I can tell you, when we found a noisy nuke in the annulus, plotted his C/S and put him on the beam, it made for some nice tail work.  If we were lucky enough to get the HSL 35 Det 5 Magicians in the air and drop some buoys, the grams on the -17 were beautiful.

MR T's Haircut said...

Byron, youre assuming the sub mission is anti shipping and the surface ships are anti surface also.. I am thinking more bastion ops with the SSBN being Nuke shooters and the surface ships are providing SAM cover against Air ASW threats.  Sea Denial.

but yes the best offense / defense is another Sub.. do we have any left? ;)

MR T's Haircut said...

NH, easy mate, of course Autec is still open and I have been to TFC for shuffle board and cheap rum drinks, LAMPS MKIII IS going away.  SH-60B's are going to be relics.  SH-60R's will try to combine the two missions of HS/HSL.  They will deploy from the big decks and will be assigned buy the HEC or Helo Squadromn commander to what ever deck.  Remember that not all Burkes have hangars... another oversight.

sid said...

Thats right out of the Soviets' classic playbook....

sid said...

forgot to add....

All along the stated purpose for their "Raketneyy Cruisers" [sic] was as Mr T postulates above.

But, like the vast majorirty of warships ever built, they never were employed for that purpose.

(LCS Bubbahs-the same SHALL apply to you)

Byron said...

Yup...hard to be the 180pd, 21 year old, high school educated sonar tech's ears and brain....

Byron said...

Well, Mr. T, I know of an OHIO who's WEPS was a Harpoon player who collected two Flight2 LAs during an EX :) ...He read his Tom Clancy too :)

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