Thursday, December 29, 2011

Diversity Thursday


This is sad and in many ways pathetic.

As we've discussed often - I served with females from the start of my career and have supported their service everywhere they are physically and otherwise qualified - just like everyone else - with a few logical exceptions.

I have had some great mentors who were female - including one crusty old-school CMDCM who would not want to be called a "mentor" - especially by an officer; but by a modern definition, she was one. If I told her that, she would probably have called me a pu55y and to get out of her Navy ... but different subject for a different day.

On the other side, I have had the chance to "mentor" (I don't like the concept BTW - it is just plain professionalism and leadership - it is part of the job) - females as well. Even after retirement, I still keep in touch with a few; and via this blog/email I have female - officer and enlisted, MIDN too - who honor me with the opportunity to throw in a word of advice now and then when asked.

It is incredibly counter-productive - as the CO on the PONCE knows - to push a s3x-segregation program (RDML Klein call your office). There are a lot of good that can come from getting advice from the other side of the XX-XY divide.

Our Navy isn't interested in that though. Oh, no - it is debunked 1970s theories it needs to re-animate and pick at. The Navy is just a place to do social work you can't do elsewhere dontchaknow.

Navy policy on such issues is driven by the worst byproducts of gender studies departments at universities - afterall, who else will give those oxygen thieves a paycheck - and the resulting cognitive disfunction is on display again. As a result - our organization does things like this.
Hello [redacted]

Thank you for your past participation in the NavyWomen eMentor program. Since that program sunsetted, and our AcademyWomen eMentor is restricted to women only, I'm sorry to inform you we had to delete your profile from the program. However, we are currently talking with several organizations regarding launching new eMentor programs that might apply to you, so please periodically check back to our site (http://academywomen.org/e-mentorprogram.php) for announcements of new programs.

Warm regards,

Shannon
--
Shannon [redacted]
Manager, eMentor Leadership Program
[redacted]@ementorprogram.org
http://ementorprogram.org
www.academywomen.org
We have a retired Navy Captain - one who is very well placed in his community and very involved in with his Navy still - who was extending a hand to offer advice.

It seems that gender politics and an agenda of exclusion is more important than building leaders.

Classic s3xual discrimination. Not only does it insult those who offer to help - it takes away an opportunity for one of our rising stars to benefit from decades of experience.

Shame on our Navy - and shame on all of us. This is our Navy; we let this happen.

For the record - the POC above is a graduate of the USAFA - so we're letting the Air Farce do this to us - can we be more of a Beta Service?

90 comments:

MinoritySailor said...

CDR S.,

I can't believe it. We almost agree on a point. We are 90 percent there :). I applied as well a while back and was told no. At first I was upset for the same reasons you give. But after a while I thought that perhaps to get things going well initially it might be worthwhile to have a women's only program. I think after a while you will need a transition to eliminate the program or include everybody. The hard part would be to define 'when'.

MS

LT B said...

I am not a fan of the official mentoring program.  A good leader mentors.  It happens naturally.  A good leader ends up with others coming to them, asking advice, taking bits and pieces of their leadership style and using them.  A female leader might get questions from other females asking how they manage to balance the different ambitional draws of being a ship's captain or being a great mom.  It is awfully hard to do both if it is possible at all.  I am not in agreement that we need a Balkanized specialty and service industry in the military.  A good female leader, just like a good male leader will draw people to them who will seek out their advice or perspective.  As to MS assertion that it may be good to start out with a woman's only group, well, um, ok, but we are a couple decades or more into females in the Navy.  I am guessing we are beyond the "initial" stage. 

MinoritySailor said...

True ..... good leaders mentor all regardless of race or sex. But as evident by recent firings, not all of our leaders are good. So in order to ensure that some can get critical info that traditionally did not make it to a certain sector, perhaps a controversial initial step is needed. This program is not that old. Am curious as to how it faired.

MS

Byron said...

Minority Sailor: Bullshit

eric said...

Perhaps you could ask the AF to allow Maj. Kale Mosley to take her place since that would be REAL diversity.

Actus Rhesus said...

funny.  the people who did the most to help my career were (with a couple exceptions) male.

The people who did the most to destroy it were across the board women (if you can call them that)

I do not care about gender...I care about character and willingness to be a leader and mentor, not a bitter harpy.

Not saying that all women are bitter harpies, or that all men are great leaders...just saying you can't generalize and assume XX needs XX and XY needs XY as a leader.

LT B said...

Mentorship will have little to do with CO's breaking the rules.  They KNOW they are and are choosing to do so in many of those cases.  You think a formal mentoring program will help?  Minimal effect.  A lot of those firings were clear cut UCMJ violations.  Frat, DUI, etc.  I don't buy that excuse for this Balkanization.  The more Big Navy gets involved, the worse it gets, just like government involvement in personal lives.  Navy needs to train, equip and prepare for war.  The social experimentations or lack of honesty along those lines takes away from their core mission. 

Actus Rhesus said...

Agree with LT B on all points.  I have had great mentors, but I've sought them out, male and female.  I've just identified people I admired and took the initiative to send them an e-mail saying "Hi Sir/Ma'am, I am really interested in the career path you've taken and would love to pick your brain on what type of assignments I should be seeking to follow that path as well.  Can we grab lunch or coffee some time and discuss?" And universally the response was "Sure! I'd love to.  I'm free X Y and Z days between these hours.  Let's meet at the galley!"

I've also, as mentioned above, had a number of females go out of their way to attempt to destroy my career, and it is specifically because of three women that I am unlikely to continue on active duty, as I have thoroughly lost faith in my community's "leadership".

Now, it is true that there are some questions I'd be more likely to ask a female mentor than a male (eg billet planning with pregnancy in mind) but that doesn't mean I need a full time female mentor especially given the nature of some of the females in leadership.

I have more in common with my married, male line officer boss with three kids who plays recreational sports in his off hours than I do with a single, unmarried, ice queen who only has her career.

and yes, that's a generalization...but so is this whole stupid mentor program.  It assumes women will naturally be great leaders and, while sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.  So how about we, as female JOs start looking around, figuring out who "I want to be when I grown up" and just ask them for help.  Male and Female mentors alike, it's worked fine for me.

LCDRLDO6440 said...

My DT question:  How long before we see www.academylgbt.org?  

LT B said...

I have met some horrible leaders.  Both male and female.  Now the politics of females in the Navy was the death knoll of my affinity for the Navy.  I was a recruiter for the Navy in all that I did.  Now, after they have gone down this road, made it personal on top of it, I no longer tell young people how wonderful the Navy is.  The work is hard, the liberty ports are less plentiful and less fun, the social politics are not in keeping with Navy Core Values or LT B's values, so my praise of the Navy is far less than it was.  It has its points, and there are some aspects I love, but it is garbage like this and the industry pushing this view that xx and xy can not work together, that minorities are sub standard, that whites are evil and the fact that I pee standing up makes me a bad person (women might think so as I don't put the seat down).  You want to have a minority or female mentoring program?  Ok, I guess, but it is silly to think that only a member of THAT race/gender group will be able to offer advice.  This will not help the Navy at all, as it will have more negative effects than positive ones due to the lack of unity that it instills.

LT B said...

Very short indeed, I would think.  There is already an alumni group.  Since the academy has fully embraced the liberal college group think wrt gender and racial politics, this will be seen shortly IMO.

LT B said...

yes yes and yes AR.  And the other thing is you will never find the ONE leadership Yoda.  We all have different styles, views, etc.  So you can even take stuff from the crap leaders.  I will NOT do that when I command.  I seek out officers (and enlisted) that can help me with my shortfalls.  I know I am crap at writing evals/fitreps and awards.  Suck at it.  So, I seek out people that are good at it to get adivce, help wordsmith Navy style, and take what I can from them.  But aside from all that, great leaders give clear cut orders, communicate well, are energetic, and above all else, make the people they work with and around feel like they can trust them.  Consistency builds its own mentorship. 

Actus Rhesus said...

 my default response to anyone asking me about the Navy JAG Corps these days is "have you looked at the Army? They have a hell of a sign on bonus, and their leadership isn't broken like ours.  Long deployments, but less idiots."

Stem said...

AR - I'm with you....race and gender politics suck and these days I openly question a youngster's choice to sign on with the USN....kicker is that we all stand by an watch the institute we grew up in deteriorate like a mud hut in a hurricane....

MR T's Haircut said...

No Vagina?  No need to mentor..

Sean said...

Here I foolishly thought that "mentoring" was assumed to be part of your job to begin with...

AW1 Tim said...

We have a very good system in place: The US Navy.

   What we need to do is scrub from it all the diversity zampolits and all the accompanying baggage and institutional cancers.

    I came aboard in 1976. I served alongside women, men and even (GASP!) homos3xuals. One of the latter was a close friend who I "mentored". There were folks of all colors, but you know what? We didn't have any stinking diversity programs and no one cared. No one cared what color you were, what s3x you were, what your last name was, etc. All we cared about was that we had eachother's back and that we were squared away and got our PQS signed off on time.

   There were any discrimination problems that I EVER witnessed, through several commands and deploymentys, until the US Navy decided that we had them and they were going to do something about that. Since then it's been down hill and that right quickly.

   Don't play the victim card. Never consider yourself a part of a minority. If you must, then consider that the minority you belong to is that os veteran, and you are a part of our nation's elite simply by raising your hand and taking that oath.

  Either you are a part of the solution, or a part of the problem. Don't be the latter. Stop whining, stop thinking you are a minority, and start being a sailor, because none of the blue shirts give's a rat's patoot about any of your problems, or any of the invenyted problems that Millington seems to see.

   V/R

AW1 Tim said...

Maybe then plan on changing it to Wombyntor?  =-X

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span>See?  That just shows how neanderthal and unenlightened you are.  Plenty of officers without vaginas need mentoring.   
 
African-Americans and Latinos for instance.   
 
And officers without vaginas who wanna put their male plumbing in another man's anus.   
 
The only ones without vaginas who don't need mentoring are hetero whites and Asians</span>

Latent Infantry NCO said...

The break here is not due to the fact that the Navy has determined XY can't mentor XX (doubtful they would say XX can't mentor XY though).

The break is in believing that leadership can be eOutsourced or that junior leaders merit more funding to discuss any aspect of their career with someone outside their chain. I thought that's what E-, NCO-, SNCO-, and O-Clubs were for...Lotta my quandaries have been solved over a bar built outta ammo crates.

sid said...

Thirty years after the opening shots in the "Battle of the Norton Sound"

They've won.

Priorities.

Byron said...

So what are you, sport, a shipmate or a racial/gender group? Can't be both, not if you wish to separate yourself from your shipmates, if you have any. Either get with the program or as gracefully as possible get the hell away from real shipmates. Either way, showing up here as "minority sailor" is the same as telling us you're a simple fool.

LT B said...

You know Sean, as hard as the job is, at times, that is one of the best parts of it...  helping a shipmate.  Providing information, guidance and even learning form the experience.  I have always viewed it as a bonus of the job.

MR T's Haircut said...

Lol I meant that if the Mentor didnt have a Vagina, his service as a Mentor was not required, nor desired, however, your Mentoree non-vagina commentary is spot on!

Alpha Check said...

<p>You're a mentor for women, but use "female." Interesting language for a mentor.  Would you prefer "male" or "man"?
</p>

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

I do not understand official mentoring programs.  If there has been one thing that I have been good at, like AR, it is being able to seek out good mentors and prove myself worthy of them investing their time and efforts.  I have had mentors of every race, ethnicity and both genders.  Why?  Because I have found talent and success to be nondiscriminatory.  I wonder when the official mentoring programs will pick that one up?

Mentors invest their time out of love of service and the potential that they see in others.  Forcing someone to mentor a Sailor of lesser aptitude simply because of race is a good way to make an otherwise good mentor jaded and unwilling to impart all of his/her knowledge.  Why does the Navy have such a cave man mentality?!  "Mongo sees mentored sailors go far.  Everyone get mentor!  Mongo sees winners win...Everyone a winner!"

LT B said...

Being the rough and tumble sailor that I am, I could really care less.  I suppose I would be happy if they called me man, but then again, I'd be glad if they called me male.  I even like it when they call me a hard working SOB, but then again, I am not uber sensitive. 

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

Good lord here, gentlemen...I stumbled upon the Front Porch Vagina Monologues...

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

Either that or it is the "meow game" with a substituted vagina for meow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXPeLctgvQI

LT B said...

Even worse, having the command TELL you who your mentor is.  That is horrible if you two don't see eye to eye, or you don't trust them or their guidance. 

Actus Rhesus said...

^ Been there.

Actus Rhesus said...

male/female is pretty common parlance in the DoD.  I think you're reading too much into this.

LT B said...

I haver CERTAINLY been called worse!  :)

Alpha Check said...

Could be.... Perhaps it shows a difference in thinking.  I know plenty of women that hate being called "females" by the military, but they aren't going to tell their CO or their O-6 "mentor", if it's a man.

cdrsalamander said...

AC,
Frankly, I don't care.  Doesn't matter. 

You must know I like words - so this can be fun.  Words mean things - and you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about that (is that phrase s3xist too?) - so how do you see the difference.

Please; tell me more.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Oh...  Well, never mind, then!  8-)

James said...

Sigh are you sure?

I wonder how many years it will take. Of course i also wonder if a good shove into the mudd and spending a month in a tiny firebase on the side of a mountain in afghainistain would teach those admirals and their followers a damn thing.

James said...

Why the hell do people get so butt hurt over little crap.

Jesus i've seen bigger marbles on 9yr olds who get called fat in the school yard. I'm all for women in the work place but i have to ask. Is their a reason most men and most women have to act like freaking robots because some of ya'll can't develope a thick skin?

I mean jesus how many female marines complain about someon calling someone else a pu$$y around them and expect to get the same treatment.

I expect men to treat a women like a women. But don't complain if we behave differently everytime you enter the room or keep you at arms length.

Actus Rhesus said...

I'm female.  I don't object to being called female.  If a leader were using the term "men" and "girls" you'd have a point, maybe.  But female is a linguistically accurate term to describe me.

Words.  They has a meaning.

James said...

OK what is it that is so insulting? Female means she is a female of the species. I'm sorry i always thought the term Sailor would mean more.

Harden up.

"America's Navy. If everything is in perfect parameters of our best most optimistic power points on certain days we can be the most powerful force in the world........as long as you dont say any mean names.....or we might cry"

Alpha Check said...

Female is less human, more clinical.  Much like male is more clinical referring to gender only than man or men, which refers to a larger set of attributes.  Both men and boys are male, as women and girls are female, but boys are not men and girls are not yet women.  I'm aware you don't care, if you cared, you would have thought about it.

ASWOJoe said...

Perhaps you'd prefer Womyn?  It is a bit of a affectation and I'm not sure why so many of us in DOD use it but I've really got a hard time seeing something to be offended about here.  Perhaps you're just looking for a reason?  Seeing as my first Department Head used "Hey, Fuckstick!" as a manner of address and calling someone "Queerbait" was a morning greeting I think you just may need to harden the fuck up.  This is the military, we kill people and break countries, if you want sensitivity go whine to the Air Force.

Actus Rhesus said...

So wait...let me get this straight...by using the clinical term that refers only to physical chromosome make up, with no added suumptions, the mlitary is being insensitive and sexist, but if they used a societally gendered term with all its accompanying inferences about what makes a "woman" they would not be sexist?

LT B, can you check and see if my nose is bleeding? Because I think I just had an aneurysm.

Alpha Check said...

James, Call women what you want, but be aware that the language you use says something about your beliefs.

Actus Rhesus said...

ps suumptions = assumptions.

holiday standdown drunk typing FTW!

Actus Rhesus said...

beliefs like X chromosome + X chromosome = female?

Alpha Check said...

Not offended at all, just thought it was an interesting insight.  Call 'em what you want.

LT B said...

And this is why a male JAG I was hanging w/ told me that he will never befriend a female in uniform.  They get only, ONLY professional courtesies.  He has had to handle all too many he said/she said cases that all boiled down to hurt feelings, entitlement feelings, and super thin skins.  And no, you can't call them what you want, because some names get you in court over hurt feelings. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iliNaspGVDg

The 11th amendment added to the Bill of Rights, You have the right to not have your wittle feewings huwt. 

Chick CDR said...

Salamander, totally agree w term "mentor" being leadership, add common sense, golden rule, etc. I should be able to pick and choose the attributes/wisdom I want from various individuals - hopefully they have enough going on to be "mentor" without having to flip a switch and go into active mentoring mode.

This "No Boys Allowed" nonsense is dangerous. The best advice I got as a JO was from guys who wisely explained how and why guys think, act, etc., so I could better formulate plans of action in dealing with my more difficult nuts to crack. Girls can't teach girls how guys think. And if you're like me, always the token female officer in a command, then you better understand men, and you ain't gonna get it from Cosmo, sisters!

Men in general are now treated so disrespectfully in our society, I suppose it was a matter of time before the Navy reflected that *awesome* trait as well. The sheer arrogance to think men have nothing of value to offer! It's foolish, and I can only hope that someone puts a stop to this fast - the result could set us girls back to the not-so-good-ol' pre-Tailhook days. I'm withdrawing myself from that program, and will stick to the day-in/day-out "mentoring" of whomever chooses to seek me out for my experience, knowledge, advice.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Chick CDR,

Time was, you could grab a draft beer and stand/sit on the periphery of a crowd listening to a leadership lesson from a senior officer that had that epiphany in combat, be it Korea or Vietnam.  THAT was mentoring. But the club system was purposelfully killed (de-emphasize alcohol!) by those senior officers whom desired more than anything to please their political masters in the wake of Tailhook (Patsy Schroeder, at the time), so that opportunity for young leaders to interact in such a way with their seniors is long gone.

With beer in hand I listened to the tale of a recon platoon that neglected to put its security element over the next terrain feature, so that when they ambushed and shot the hell out of an NVA company, they learned too late that it was the forward recon element of an NVA regiment.  The description of the three-day/two-night chase through the jungle until they got back to Camp Carroll was a sublime discussion in small unit leadership of being tactically and technically proficient, and having the physical courage to lead from the front. 

The man who told the story had been a Marine rifleman in Korea, and led a platoon and a Company in some of the heaviest fighting in Southeast Asia.  But he was not "diverse" and would not be a "mentor" in the US Navy today.

Which, in its simplest form, is a pretty good indicator of a bigger problem.  The mentor program itself is another.

Kent said...

Wasn't your mentor a "CMDMC"  not a "CMDCM"?

LT B said...

no blood dripping from nose, but your eyes are awfully blood shot.  :)

fdchief said...

AW1 I think " femtor" is the better description.

SouthernAP said...

So can anyone tell my how this little program isn't against the Regulations, federal law , UCMJ, and a whole slew of other legal things as it relates to diversity?

UltimaRatioRegis said...

I am betting the Diversity Directorate will not run right out and buy the grunt Platoon Sergeant action figure

Collect all four dioramas!

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Well, it IS against regulations and federal law, but it is the GOOD kind of discrimination and racism. 

You know, the kind where only heterosexual white males are excluded.  Sort of a victimless crime.

Chick CDR said...

URR, I agree with you on the informal "AAR" you described. It worked that way for so long b/c, well, it worked! Relaxed setting vice a classroom, ears open = brain in receive mode, and omg! heaven forbid there was a beer around! (Gasp!) I can write a dissertation on why we should never have gotten rid of the club system, no good came from it. My husband works as a weapons engineer for DoN, so I have a first row seat to gov't waste - fix all that crap before you take away our clubs!

Bottom line: Can you imagine the uproar if "they" established a mens-only mentorship program!?!! Someone please explain the difference to me....

I was a CO - went to a bunch of those annual CO conferences. Every year, filled with 30+ white male officers pontificating on some subject or another. 2 Latino guys, 2 of us chick types, and only 1 year out of 3 did I see a black guy. Doesn't even come close to today's demographic of Navy or any other service, really... so the question is, who is making decisions like this? Who wakes up and says, "Hey, a women's only mentorship website/program is a great idea!" These same white males experiencing what, ...diversity guilt? Or is it our most senior females who still think Gloria Steinem was somehow "good"? (whereas I think she contributed to the rapid break down of the American family unit and therefore society, but that's another blog, right?) Alright, off soapbox now. Why is my Navy becoming bereft of leadership....sigh.

Chick CDR said...

Command Master Chief is abbreviated CMDCM. Senior Chief would be --CS.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Very well-said.  I am afraid the answers to your questions would make the Navy leadership exceedingly uncomfortable to say out loud, publicly.

Yes, the loss of the fabric of that TRUE mentorship has had detrimental consequences.  The legacy is not valued, the history and lineage marginalized, to make room for the next politically-charged set of buzzwords, and the next wasteful management fad.

"Traditions of things endured, and things accomplished, such as Regiments hand down forever...."

Or, at least they should.

LT B said...

Ma'am,
   Have you heard Raquel Welch's latest view on feminism?  Pretty interesting.  Age, motherhood and time to look around and experience has provided her a strangely similar view to yours, actually.  I was astounded when I saw the interview.

NAnonymous said...

AFUAW

Chick CDR said...

Spot on, both you and LT B! Sounds like you both have the same natural "gut check" I have and it's saved my bacon on more than one occasion. Okay, I'm gonna say it and date myself, here goes..."Back when I was a JO..." (oh brother!) the senior chick officers (I like the word "chick" by the way b/c 1. I have a thick skin and 2. it pisses off chicks with thin skins) were of the leftover VietNam era when you could only serve if you were unmarried and childless. I had one CDR sit me down as a boot ENS and counsel me to not get married if I was serious about my career, that I couldn't have it all, I needed to commit, etc, etc, blah, vomit. Okay, thanks for the input. Am I dismissed? Misery loves company.

Hard cold truth: Communism doesn't take human nature into account, just as Feminism fails to take the nature of most women into account. Thus, women are dangerous. Your chick superiors are, b/c they won't tell you why they're not happy with your work, then slam you via gossip or fitrep. Your chick colleagues are, b/c they're more competitive with you (in their own little brains) than they are with your male counterparts. To this day I fully trust exactly one other senior female officer. One. 18 1/2 years into this thing plus NROTC. As a matter of course, I always avoid other females in military settings and let them come to me, let them establish the type of/set the pace of the relationship, and I'm very wary to open up and share much. Happy to "mentor" when it's sought, but only after I've established there's no alterior motive or psychological weakness. Am I harsh? No, self preservation. Just finished a 15-mo stint in Iraq, avoided most chicks there, too, except one chick Colonel who just couldn't leave me alone! But she proved herself inept and was relieved for cause, weapon taken away, booted from country, the works - just my luck, right? Crazy with weapons, great combo.

But like you, Actus, I've been in the cross hairs of too many females, both enlisted and officers, and interestingly enough, never for any professional reason! Go figure! And we're surprised men don't take us seriously? One is jealous I have kids and she doesn't. (Okay, never talk about kids again, ever! Totally realistic. And take down all pictures of any sort of general "happiness". Check.) One is mad that I'm still married and she's divorced three times. (What? I just met you? How did I have anything to do with that, you psycho?) One is bent because it's the third Tuesday of a month that starts with M, and she decided she hates blondes today. (What the...!) The point is the overwhelming illogically "Alpha Female" competitiveness many women tend to act upon reflects negatively upon us all - their personal competition, passive aggressiveness gets in the way of what should be only professional. It's side show BS.

Things I've learned about men in the Navy: I was in an operational squadron, I was the first chick officer at a SEAL team back in the early '90s, I was overseas a lot. Guys who are warfighters are not worried about chicks in uniform. They're secure with themselves b/c they've been tested and they've passed and they don't need to "take it out on" black guys or chicks or gays or whomever else. If you do your job and do it well, real men will never, ever give you a hard time. I've had my spatterings of non-real-men to deal with, too, and I've "won" but only b/c I stuck to the job, stayed professional, took high ground even when I was seriously po'd, etc. But I've worked for some phenomenal men. Men I would literally be a bullet sponge for. Conversely, I have never, not once worked for a decent female. No female boss ever took care of me, nurtured or helped grow my career, quite the contrary. So until biology can [...]

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

D'oh!

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

There's a new O-5 on Sal's front porch, and I'm liking it!

James said...

Yes your right where i come from a man is taught to treat a women like lady. He's taught to respect her and protect her. How horrible.

I expect women to act like ladies. Powder puff ladies who scream at snakes sure. But if they are sailors, or marines or soldiers.....then that is what they should also act like.

OK here is a label. ADULT.

One seeming to have become empty. Can't do your duty or act correctly because your to immature guess what not a adult.

I'll treat a man like a man and a women like a women.

That Nice Lady Sal mentioned....i'd treat her with all the respect she deserves. Both because of her position, experience and attitude. No more no less.

BTW ask the women who are bitching about how unfairly they were treated what would happen if they got in a fight with a 250lb bruiser in a bar........bet it aint the same as would happen to me.

Chick CDR said...

But I love me some Sal! I'm just on a tear today...usually I just quietly read!

Jim said...

I was stationed at NWC China Lake late 70s and worked in the control tower. Tower was staffed 24/7, and as such two people were allowed to sleep in USN provided roll away beds after approx 2100. It was co-ed arrangement, with no distinction between married and
single men and women that stood the overnight duty. No hanky panky took place, used to discuss this from time to time with co-workers (maybe they wouldn't fess up if something untoward occurred). Even had a small color TV with rabbit ears that we were allowed to watch. I always deferred to the lady that was my fellow watchstander the selection of program to watch. Love Boat seemed to be their favorite.  Only friction was discussing whose turn in was to obtain clean linen from BEQ office. CO of enlisted personnel was CDR Rodney Knutson. Looking back to those salad days, I see how refreshing it was at the tender age of 20 to be treated as an adult, by a leader that gave us quite a bit of responsibility. Been out of the USN many a year, and reading this blog and other websites, boy oh boy how times have changed.

cdrsalamander said...

CC.,
Awwww .... shucks. Comment early and often; I like your style.  All you need to do is pic a proper avatar.

You're always welcome on my front porch!

Chick CDR said...

Thank you, Sal! Now I'll go find an avatar that will crack your readers up, and mortify soft headed feminists.

DeltaBravo said...

This one is taken.  Just sayin....  ;)

LT B said...

CC,
   I never read the book, just ran across her interview as I was flipping through the channels.  Her one liner about what feminism has done to vice for the country caught my attention.  Just listening to her and juxtaposing it with her career was interesting. 

Oh yeah, I have googled Raquel too!  :)   I bet many on the porch here, have.  You KNOW URR has!  ;)

As to your observations, I have had only one female boss worth a damn.  The others, not so much.

Show Me the Money! said...

This group "AcademyWomen.org" is a great example of the true Diversity battle plan routinely commented on by CDR Sal et al - making money and advancing an agenda that ensures that the money keeps flowing (aka, the proverbial self-licking ice cream cone). 

Here's a group that was "founded" in 2003 by a 1993 Air Force Academy grad (Susan Feland)whose bio seems decidedly average to be the leader of a US Navy-endorsed "affinity group" (she did what appears to be the minimum post-academy commitment, separated, went to grad school, bounced around in a couple of jobs, and landed at Stanford University in a leadership development group.  I also wonder how relevant her 1990's military experiences are today - but that's conjecture and digression on my part).  Playing the timeline forward... ADM Mullen launched his 'Diversity is a Strategic Imperative' campaign in mid-2006 which clearly signalled a Diversity door being swung wide open (and $$$ to be had) and, either coincidentally or causal, in 2007 Academywomen was established as a non-profit which allows them to raise money.   

As a non-profit they are required to file public tax returns which show the following revenue trends:
2007:  $66k
2008:  $116k
2010:  $191k
That's a rather impressive growth during the Great Recession!  Although the dollars aren't big (especially by USG standards) I suspect the trend is representative of all the other groups with similar Diversity missions and can only wonder as to the aggregate dollars that are flowing into the Diversity coffers.

F<span><span><span>or others with too much time on their hands the Academywomen EIN is:  42-1697594 and pdf's of their filings are available at the National Center for Charitable Statistics (http://nccsdataweb.urban.org/)</span></span></span>

Actus Rhesus said...

Chick CDR, I like the cut of your jib.  Welcome to the front porch, and let's have a drink.

A real drink though, no bullshit "flirtinis" or crap like that.

Also, I'll see your anecdotes and raise you.  I had a female department head who was older than I was, single, and not pleased about it.  Our workday was 0800 to 1630.  I habitually came in at 0600, and would leave at about 1615 to hoof it over to the gym and meet my then boyfrioend, now husband for PT.  Often, I would come back after PT.  I never went home until all work was done.  This was A-OK...until she found out I was not PTing alone...then all of a sudden I was a slacker and PT during the workday was not allowed.  I tried to show her the OPNAVINST which provides for 3 hours of PT a week and pointed out that I was taking 45 minutes...plus coming in 2 hours before her every morning, but she would have none of it. 

Then later I made the mistake of asking for 1 hour of special lib to help him move his stuff onto the ship before deployment (he did not have a car due to the great mass transit at that duty station) and was told I had "entitelment issues" - This is after I had worked the last three weekends on major projects.  So...I took three days of leave and read a lot of great books in my off time.

After I became engaged co-workers actually asked if I felt that things had gotten worse after the engagement.

Yes. Yes they had.

But that's EXACTLY what I need as a mentor.  A shriveled crone who begrudges me a family.

DeltaBravo said...

For lots of reasons stated so humorously by CC, I'd rather work for 10 men than one woman.  The good female bosses I've ever had were that way because they knew their stuff and didn't take their insecurities out on the easiest targets.  The worst ones... well, just say it was a nightmare.  Not as bad as my close and continuing relative whose female boss hit on her and when she rejected it (in an obtuse "I didn't sense what I just sensed" approach) got her career ended in a most vindictive fashion.  I don't hear a lot of that among rejected male bosses.  They take a more "other fish in the sea" approach when they use the office for trolling for girlfriends.  YMMV

Chick CDR said...

Actus, I'm all about tequila, little sister! And of course being a sailor, a demand my rum rations!

She was pissed b/c you were getting some and she wasn't. And she was probably threatened by your work ethic, abilities, etc. You dared hold a mirror to her own ineptitude. Shame on you! I married a very cool dude I met in P'cola in 1990! We didn't get married until 1998, were stationed overseas, had a blast. I got out for a bit, came back in after 9/11 (how can you not?), have four kids now. Probably b/c he was a Marine pilot, he "gets" it and rogers up more than any civilian men, and maybe a lot of military men. He considers my service as our family's service, which it most certainly is. Even now, senior chick, dept head, CO, loop, all sorts of checks in the block out of the way, other females are still haters even when not in direct competition...rank only affords so much protection, so they go the passive-aggressive route. WRT Iraq: twisted smile followed by, "Surely you don't think he's faithful for this long, do you?" from some ancient hag, never married. "Um, excuse me, how do we go from discussing AQI to my marriage, ma'am?" (Bunch of useless a** O6s, couldn't swing a dead cat w/o hitting five of them...) or some witch who wants to downplay my professional abilities by making sure she introduces me to some GO/FO I'm briefing as having four kids, isn't that cute/sweet/etc. (gag) "Thank you, Ma'am, I'm sure my breeding plan, however, has no impact on this brief. General, may I begin?" I've learned it's okay to be outrageous with a straight face and military courtesies. Drives them nuts.

While we're playing at anecdotes, I think it's a tough call. I think it's extremely exhausting to deal with someone like your "shriveled crone" for a year or two, taking the inevitable fitrep hits, damned by faint praise, you never know what she's telling other senior male officers about you and if they believe it or not, annoying gamesmanship. That wears on you and is a constant stressor. Conversely, I had the lovely opportunity to experience the constant stressor combined with a one-time-"Oh Sh**" adrenaline rush thanks to that Colonel I mentioned in an earlier thread... The female (altho question mark appropriate) COL who ended up relieved, who gave me such a hard time in Iraq? She had Iraqi Army soldiers draw down on me, safety off, fingers in the trigger guard, both rifles about a foot and a half from my chest, no body armor as per mission reqs (thanks, USF-I!) telling me to clear my weapon! - off-FOB on-mission SOFA says I could carry the way I was carrying, oh, I dunno, like every man who leaves the post does!?!! We didn't even work together! But she had me in her cross hairs, on-FOB, off-FOB, at the chow hall, in the head, freaking nightmare, that witch. Even before that incident, the guys in my shop thought she was dangerous and wouldn't let me go anywhere on base alone. Not b/c of potential assaults by strangers, TCNs, LNs, no, by a fellow US and a femal at that! She allowed her pettiness?, jealousy?, and probably mental disorder? (I have no idea what motivated her or how her brain works) to take her over the edge and she lost her cool, lost her "professionalism". Thank God for the UCMJ and witnesses! She put me in physical danger, was an embarassment to the US. Hands up, check, speak Arabic to dudes pointing weps at me, calmly, quietly, (she spoke none, so advantage to me), don't argue finer points of SOFA, just get home alive. "No worries, my brothers! I'm not going to move, please take my weapon." (Did I ever think I'd be saying that? Heck no!) The Iraqi general learned of it, apologized profusely, told me I could cover my body in frag grenades like a Xmas tree if I wanted to. (Um, yeah, I know the rules, but no thanks, [...]

Latent Infantry NCO said...

That's what I am talking about URR. There was a time when junior leaders were encouraged to pull up a stool, buy a round for the Old Salts, and then shut up. Amazing how those lessons burned in deeper than cheap E-Club booze and Marlboro smoke.

The club at Talega and the bar in the Squad Leader's School at Pendleton were two prime spots to pick up such mentoring back in the day, for grunts anyway. The rest of my good training usually occured when some pissed off SNCO attempted to remove my cranium from my rectum, so mentoring over a mug proved to be a lot more comfortable for all involved.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Salamander, memo to your Chief of Genetics on the front porch.  Cloning of Chick CDR and Actus Resus to begin immediately. 

Petrie dishes and stem cells, MARCH!

Kent said...

Oops, my bad......must have been a brain f--t.

LT B said...

CC, I'll be the DD.  I don't drink.  I get in enough trouble WITHOUT alcohol.  That said, I'll definitely hang. I've been known to frequent wing establishments to flirt w/ the waitresses if I can keep Byron and Phib from scaring them off!

Actus Rhesus said...

the only adequate response to that story is

"holy...motherfucking...shit"

LT B said...

Or a trip to the wood shed. 

Chick CDR said...

Right!?!! The only thing keeing me from being scared was how f'ing mad I was at her. And then quiet resolve set in...if USF-I and our God-given UCMJ didn't sort it out, I'd wait five to seven years and sort it out myself! ;)

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Well, it is a good thing we are past thinking that young leaders could learn anything from a senior who drinks, or (clutching pearls) SMOKES!

No, no siree.  Today's true leaders are teetotaling, diversity-blessed, non-confrontational consensus-building six-sigma blackbelts.... 

Steely-eyed warriors, all.

Mike M. said...

I'm a black belt...but not in six sigma.   8-)

Mike M. said...

Chick CDR, you raise a very good point.  Things are getting toxic and bitter, and women will ultimately rue the day this sort of thing happened.

LCDRLDO6440 said...

<span>pontificating - I love that word!</span>

Chick CDR said...

We need a better methodology of screening for command. Not just how you look on paper. When you submit a package to screen, maybe it should have letters of recommendation not only from some GO/FO, but from a peer or two, from a Chief or two. How do you sceen personalities? Not sure, huge challenge, but judging from the number of Skippers relieved in the last few years - 3 of my cohorts my first year as a CO alone! Do you not really think "consent to monitoring" isn't real? Puhleeze... - we need a better process and fast. It affects morale, retention, the works!

LT B said...

some honesty would help reduce firings too.  If FITREPs are not honestly written, well...

Outlaw Mike said...

<span>I agree with the statement</span>

<span>'This is our Navy; we let this happen.'</span>

Well yes of course, because if you give a finger they will want an arm. I'm sorry CDR, but you cannot have it both ways. The moment that you give the impression you want to lend the diversinazis an ear and think 'well, we'll just change the wallpaper and they will be content, why not', you open the door for demolishing the entire building.

sid said...

Yah know...

She PROMISED me that there were no cameras in the room! =-O

(and that ball gag hurt too)