Wednesday, November 10, 2010

You WISH this were your homeport


Sometimes the media makes a mistake that for a moment takes you to a place that makes you smile.

Imagine this were true.

The Northrop Grumman-built Aegis guided missile destroyer Gravely is ready to set sail today, company leaders said Thursday.

The ship is scheduled to leave at 8 a.m., bound for its homeport in Wilmington, N.C.,
Of course that won't be her homeport ... but imagine if it was. Imagine if we had 3-6 DDG's homeported in small to medium sized towns and other places here and there.

Imagine that we actually accepted the history of naval warfare and practiced strategic homeporting.

I have been stationed at small bases and large. From a quality of life, family life, and professional work environment - the small bases were far superior to larger ones where you could rot in PSD for days. Sadly for today's JOs ... the small(er) ones are mostly gone.

Even though the USAF forgot "
DENSE PACK" decades ago - we seem to practice that now with our Fleet. There are significant Strategic Risks for a fleet concentrated in a few vulnerable areas - especially during the holidays. Roll that macro into the micro of quality of work/life where we have Sailors who are clawing for a parking spaces after running an 1-hr commute (tunnels willing) starting at 5-6am so their children can go to a decent neighborhood school.

Imagine three DDG or so homeported in Wilmington, NC - another three or so in Portland, ME. A half-dozen in Charleston (again) ... and that is just East Coast thinking. What small bases could we use on the West Coast?

Bloated costs and BRAC savings gone? No, not if you think lean and smart. Do we bring all that overhead with us because we have to - or because it has become habit? Can't we run a lean and efficient base structure instead of that mid-20th Century model we are stuck in?

Can we afford to have so much of our Fleet in just 2-3 homeports on each coast? Not if you think with a red hat.

If we didn't pack everyone in the same traffic jam at 6-7AM - the higher quality of life/work would be a happy side-effect. That being said - with the results of the per-unit costs of a Tiffany Navy, even Norfolk will be thin before long. Heck, compared to when I was a MIDN; it is now.

Ponder. Small bases. Big smiles.

125 comments:

John said...

There might be room in Wilmington.  The USCGC DILIGENCE is homeported there and they seem to love it.

Byron said...

I have only one problem with that: all ships need repair and maintainence, more today than ever before as a) ships are being run hard, and b) sailors don't do a lot of repair and maintainence. If you homeport ships scattered all to hell and gone then you'll have to make sure that you have both NAVSEA in place for oversight and planning and an "industrial base" which means ugly foul mouthed people like myself. And in case anyone has missed hearing me say it over and over again, there aren't a lot of skilled trades left. Seeing how we're retiring or moving on to something less nasty and hard and with fewer and fewer young people coming in, our numbers are shrinking at an alarming rate...alarming to anyone except me who saw the train wreck coming a decade ago.

Another factor is the vendors that supply the repair facilities; we have lots of them near Mayport that specialize in Navy work. Can the same be said of Wilmington? If there is neither the industrial base nor the support facilities, will this not greatly increase the cost of doing Navy work?

Skippy-san said...

Well they have real nice piers and facilities in Charleston SC.

The other advantage is getting a Navy presence in cities that don't have one.

kmadams85 said...

<p>Hey Byron, look at the positive side.  This instantiation of Plan SALAMANDER would create more demand for skilled trades, which might even motivate young people to take them up as a career!  
</p><p>I'd keep the intermediate/depot facilities just as they are, centralized.  Move ships there when they need it, do the unit-level and light intermediate stuff in their distributed homeports.
</p><p>After a while, some enterprising individual boat yards in those ports might even see the opportunity for a little growth into heavier work.  Win-Win, if you ask me.
</p>

Grumpy Old Ham said...

<span>There is significant Strategic Risk for a fleet concentrated in a few vulnerable areas - especially during the holidays.</span>

Irrelevant.  Our enemies would never even think of attacking a large naval base with concentrated assets during the holiday season.  What's important now is squeezing every last dollar out of the DoD budget in the name of "efficiency", in order to fund more "Hope and Change".

I do so want to urinate on the grave of Robert Strange McNamara.

Byron said...

Ken, you can wish for all the shipfitters in the world...you can even demand them. But getting skilled people who understand the rules of Navy work is entirely different. If you don't believe me, simply look at the LPD-17 fiasco. Avondale hadn't ever built a new Navy ship...and screwed it up royally. Second, short avails are becoming longer..30-60 days. Now you're asking sailors who are homeported in Wilmington to commute between the ship in Norfolk and Delaware every day to be with their families. And "enterprising boat yards"....see above, re Avondale.

No, better to keep them where there's already infrastructure, manpower, and materials in place and ready. Sorry, Phib, I'm 100% against you here.

cdrsalamander said...

Byron,
Let me ask you this.  How did we get all the skilled craftsmen from the low of 1930 to the mad rush of 1940?  They did not sprout from the head of Zeus, nor were they standing by for an invitation.

If you answer that question, you just answered your own.  

Anonymous said...

Wilimington NC huh?  Well, they do have BB-55 for reference of what a real warship is like.

Just think of the bar fights when the Marines from Camp Lejeune stream south and bump into the sailors in their favorite watering holes!

And when they get thrown in the pokey and wind up IHCA, they can hire Matlock to help them!

Hey Sal, why would anybody think with a red hat?  Seems it would clash something awful with their rose-colored glasses, no?

Andrew said...

I agree with Kmadam.

I have a buddy stationed down in Oak Island with the Coast Guard and I've asked him how they do maintenance for their cutters since they're scattered up and down the coastline and he said that they do exactly what you propose, with the cutters reporting to the huge shipyards around the Chesapeake area every so often (it eludes me to how often, though). In the meantime they have enlisted men and officers trained to do and supervise maintenance of the cutters and who perform the standard upkeep of the ship. I know the idea isn't sexy, but that's the only way I see Plan Salamander working, and frankly if it works for the USCG (who, from the stories my buddy tells, abuse their boats in the line of duty in order to save lives) then I don't think the Navy should have any issues; but then again, this is all far above my pay grade.

Cdr Ashore said...

Everett was very nice for exactly the reasons you describe.  A few ships, a small footprint, in a nice town (with good brew pubs and a hockey team).

AW1 Tim said...

Heck, base some back in Bath, Maine where they build them. You'd have access to all the repair facilities you needed, and the river is plenty wide and deep to sorty a squadron if push came to shove.  The Navy Commissary is still over to Topsham, and there could be arrangements made to reclaim a part of NAS Brunswick for barracks, etc.

 Bath could certainly use the income, and it's a nice sheltered area to base a few frigates or destroyers. Heck, even the Tycos were built there and got in and out well enough.

  Great Idea, CDR.

JPJ said...

Wilmington is a tough sea detail.  Cape Fear River is narrow and not particularly well-marked (at least not 15 years ago).  Wilimington is a nice town, though.  

LifeoftheMind said...

We should be increasing the level of shipboard maintenance. When I was a Division Officer my Petty Officers were begging to get micro-mini repair school they could repair the 3-D radar themselves. One of the many worst ideas that hit the Navy in the name of cost cutting was the elimination of the B schools and shift to centralized civilian repair at a depot. When a ship is CASREPed it is not combat ready. A real Navy can fix it and fight it.

Mike M. said...

WHAT BRAC savings?  The savings were overestimated, the costs were underestimated, and the Department of Defense didn't just shoot itself in the foot politically, it blew off both legs at the knee.

SECNAV Lehman was playing a cunning game with strategic homeporting.  Spread the Fleet out, and you get a much broader base of Congressional support.

Right useful if you want a 500-ship Navy.  You know, the kind that wins wars?

DeltaBravo said...

Okay, I know I know nothing about the subject of ship repair so be nice.  The closest I got was to a tour of the USS Independence while it was in completely drydock in Philly for SLEP.

But for anything less... why not think outside the box?  Why can't someone make their money by setting up independent contractor type mobile ship repair units that pack necessary things on big trucks and go to the little piers and do things on-site?  A good way to get new employees in each town to learn a new skill and help employment in areas that might need it?  Bring the repair to the ship....  I'm sure there are plenty of repair jobs short of a gaping hole at the waterline that could be taken care of this way. 

DeltaBravo said...

We need more Lehmans. 

Byron said...

It may sound shocking, but I agree with you. I think it's dumber than dirt. We just replaced (in the past six months) 30 watertight doors, scuttles and hatches because sailors don't do maintainence on them. Worse, because they don't know how to even shut the freaking door (push with one hand till it seats, pull dog with the other, the edges of the doors are getting cut from the dogs! Stupid, stupid, stupid.

leesea said...

JPJ is right.  Sure Wilmington NC might be a nice homeport, but do you know how long the sea detail down the Fear River would be?  About four hours to the sea bouy (yes I have been on ships up that river!)

LT Rusty said...

Well, for the East Coast, at least ... there's several prime spots.

1.  Charleston, as already mentioned.  We've got facilities there already.  
2.  Philly.  Same as above.
3.  Boston.  Some facilities, I think, but the big point is that it's still a major shipping center, so you're going to have commercial repair facilities available.
4.  Newport RI (maybe)
5.  Portland, ME.  You've got BIW close by, and I seem to recall watching FFG's get their PSA actually right in Portland Harbor.  I'm not sure if I'm imagining, or mixing things up with Bath, but I could swear I saw an FFG in a drydock pierside in Portland.
6.  Staten Island (maybe).  Like Boston, you've got major commercial shipping there, so you've got some access to repair facilities.

Keep N(awful)k around, of course.  Keep a CVN in Mayport, maybe some cruisers.  De-cluster-$%^# Norfolk some by reducing the traffic.

Byron said...

You'd have to have both the government and industry willing to spend MONEY to train apprentices. That's something that's not done anymore, and I think it's stupid. We're eating our seed corn, so to speak. I've watched this train wreck coming for a long time and it's going to really hit in 10 years or less...

No offense, Phib, but I did think of all those questions. And you're still wrong for the reasons I've already stated. The conditions that make this true have not changed, and to get them to change will cost a ton of taxpayer money. THAT I'm dead against.

cdrsalamander said...

We need the practice.

Byron said...

Coast Guard repairs to ABS/Coast Guard specifications and requirements. Navy is much, MUCH more convoluted (unneccessaryly so, IMHO, but it is what it is)

Wharf Rat said...

Speaking of the Gravely - the crew donated 5 flags to our Navy League council with certificats to raise money, mostly for the Wounded Warrior project (through silent auctions).  I did donate one last week for a silent auction for Haiti relief, and the winning bid was $80.

My wife and I were invited to the commissioning ceremony in 10 days, and we will be there.

I will physically view and analyze 'plan salamander'.  I suspect my analysis from the Wharf, as I am Wharf Rat, that I won't know what the heck I'm talkin' about 8-) !

But heck - at least I get to see BB 55.  In July 2009 - I toured Alabama.  Without looking, I know they're close 'sisters', but since I'm not going to take time to look right now, I'll let someone tell me if they are exact sisters, or just close sisters.  I know WWII BB's had 3-4 classes (the 10 fast BB's built from 1940 on).

Wharf Rat said...

8-)

Wharf Rat said...

Hey - and PCU Jason Dunham DDG 109 commissions on Saturday.

Nice to see 2 new DDG's join the fight in a 7 day period.

Mike M. said...

A-bloody-men to that!

Mike M. said...

A-bloody-men to that!

11B40 said...

Greetings:

I've been living in the San Francisco Bay area (I know, I know) since 1983 and have seen the eradication of the Navy's presence firsthand.  There used to be shipyards at Hunters' Point and Mare Island and carriers berthed (?) at Alameda.  All gone.  

sid said...

Charleston was no picnic...

There used to be a nav competition for the Bowditch Award there.

LT Rusty said...

Alameda?  Is that where the nuclear wessels are?  

sid said...

<span>Avondale hadn't ever built a new Navy ship...and screwed it up royally. </span>

They did build a number of Knox clas DE/FFs Byron...

And those ships were not built that well either.

sid said...

Now that I went back and looked, a whole bunch of other 60's era DEs -like Bronstein and McCloy- as well.

sid said...

Bet those coasties wouldn't want to share with a bunch of squids though! :-D

Byron said...

That was how many years ago? You think any of those trained craftsmen who understand Navy work are still alive, much less still working there?

There is a STEEP learning curve to train someone to do work the way the Navy want's it done. You have absolutely no idea all the things we have to do to get work accomplished, not to mention the rocks and shoals you can run across if you don't do it right. Navy repair is like night and day from doing new construction where this is little to no deckplate oversight by NAVSEA.

sid said...

Sorry Byron, I meant to say that as well.

One thing has endured though....their crappy reputation

Seawolf said...

I was a JO and maneuvering watch OOD on a Charleston-based SSN and the Nav on a Charleston-based SSBN.  I thought that the Cooper River was actually a pretty easy trip.  Used to do it a lot at night in the Winter.  Weapons Station to the sea buoy was about 2+ hours as I recall.  If a submarine coould do it in the 1980s and 1990s, it should be an even easier trip with today's navigation equipment.  Commercial vessels do both the Cooper and Cape Fear Rivers with very few problems and usually have just a pilot, helmsman and watch officer.  The Navy makes navigation too hard.  It certainly shouldn't be a reason not to nix a possible homport.    

C-dore 14 said...

LT Rusty, They sure were...until they all moved up to Bremerton and Everett in the late '90s.

BTW, Hunter's Point NSY closed in 1971.  Other than loss of capacity few were sorry to see it go since the place had a well-deserved reputation for poor workmanship.  Our Commodore's flagship (an Adams-Class DDG) had the misfortune of being the last ship to do a regular overhaul there.  They spent the next 4 years recovering.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

How about take Warrants, Chiefs, and Petty Officers in technical ratings and put them in mobile teams to go to the ships, using tractor trailer rigs with the trailers being shops and supply storage. Have SeaBees drive the tractors.  Use them as mobile repair facilities for operational ships, administer them as shore duty units and use them for technical repairs. Overman them a bit and put the unit near a technical training facility, so the sailors would get practical training in troubleshooting and repair as well as experience.  That way when they go back to sea they will be better trained and more experienced in troubleshooting and repair.

Mobile Operational Technical support Units.  Call them MOTU's. Bet you could bootstrap up to some really good tech repair capability.

Anonymous said...

<span> it should be an even easier trip with today's navigation equipment.</span>

Well...you'd think

But think again

Those magic boxes have lead to brain rot....

As for the Cooper River...It wasn't hard, but you had to be careful the whole way.

Yes, you'd think navigation in and around a home port would be easier today with the vastly easier to obtain postional data available.

Think again....

AW1 Tim said...

Better yet, why not build modular shops and parts storage that fit into shipping containers. These could also be hauled by a semi, or taken aboard, or loaded onto rail cars and shipped where needed, pre-positioned, etc. With a standard container size you could have all sorts of flexibility.

  You could also outfit some containers as mobile berthing units too, just in case there isn't sufficient space available aboard ship, etc.

  I like the flying repair squadron idea quite a lot!

AW1 Tim said...

Had the privilige of drinking some fine bourbon with some officers of USS Jason Dunham before they departed Bath to head down the coast. If they are representative of the caliber of her crew, then USS Jason Dunham will be well-served. She was a real treat to see when she sailed down the Kennebec.

PK said...

better yet take smaller ships, install shops, store rooms, xtra bunks, sickbays & dental suites........

call them TENDERS.

might turn out to be pretty handy.

d

AW1 Tim said...

Rusty,

  USS Roberts was rebuilt in the drydock in Portland by a BIW team.

AW1 Tim said...

Yup.... used to have lots of 'em around. Not so many these days.... sigh.

Anonymouse said...

You'd get a tough fight from Norfolk. Look at the fight they put up when SECDEF Gates tried to shut down JFCOM.

PK said...

back in the day there was a rumor floating around that the frisco area had one US Senator and
 two Us Congrescritters that could not pass the security investigations and HAD to be escorted
when they were anywhere inside the fence of a DOD reservation.

C

PK said...

pier 15 & 16 of long beach naval station are still in existance.

C

PK said...

can't you tack weld the knife edge and then file it flush??

or is the damage to bad even for that.

C

LT L said...

Just out of curosity, why the "maybe" for Newport?

-LT L

C-dore 14 said...

PK, Don't know about the Senator but your comment about the congressmen is probably on the money.  Ironically Ron Dellums was Chairman of the HASC when Mare Island, TI, and Alameda shut down.

C-dore 14 said...

MOTUs...boy there's a term that takes me back.

LT Rusty said...

I guess my thick Chekhov accent didn't come through there, C-dore ... I just re-watched Star Trek 4 yesterday.   :)

LT Rusty said...

Real close to Boston and Portland.  Would probably be better to spread things out a little further than that.

Also, what's the condition / availability of shore facilities in Newport?  I haven't been there in almost ten years, but I can't seem to recall any real industrial presence there, even on the civvie side of things?

PK said...

why don't they estabblish special duty billits for repair type officers (either warrents or mustangs)
with the enlisted picked and trained ofr repair duty and station them on TENDERs.

c

LT Rusty said...

Plus, Newport already has a Navy presence.  Should probably go for places that don't have so much of one.

PK said...

byron there are some still alive.

most of them are in at least their 70's some in the mid 80's.

quite a number are gone.

i eat lunch with a bunch on a monthly basis and the bunch is slowly getting smaller.

C

S said...

Or the fight they put up about moving a SINGLE carrier out of there.  I like the strategic homeport idea too, but I don't see it getting out of the idea phase and into reality any time soon.

DeltaBravo said...

Way better than my idea... USING NAVY PERSONNEL who would naturally be the ones on the ship handling problems underway.

C-dore 14 said...

LT Rusty, I caught it.  My favorite scene in that movie is the one with Spock and the head-banger on the bus.

Anonymous said...

AW1,

A piece on DDG-109 and her namesake here.

C-dore 14 said...

LT Rusty, Newport was a decent homeport with a relatively straight-forward sea detail.  Unfortunately there were a number of drawbacks even when the fleet was there.  Repair services were limited then and are probably close to non-existent now that the SIMA and R.E. Derecktor Shipyard are gone.  Although FTC Norfolk would send fly-away training teams up there you had to send most of your guys to NORVA for any significant classes and I once found it easier (and cheaper from a TADTAR standpoint) to take the ship down to NORVA for a 3-week availability where we would also send guys over to FTC with stand-by orders in hand (interestingly enough there were always additional quotas).  

Haven't been up there in many a moon so things may have changed, but I doubt it.

ShawnP said...

Did a overhaul at BIW-Portland in 87-88 on a Garcia Class frigate. To this day the quality workmanship sold me on Bath Iron Works. Portland it appears has taken the old shipyard and turned it into a visitors center/ferry point of departure. Oh the stories a young OSSN could tell about Portland. Unfortunately most are not fit for public consumption and you wouldn't believe em anyways.

ShawnP said...

Newport would open it's arms up in a second for more ships.

C-dore 14 said...

LT Rusty, Let me add that the big drawbacks to Staten Island and Boston were the cost of living and the price/availability/quality of repair work (one of the reasons that the Navy was happy when Derecktor opened his Newport yard).  There may still be housing in Staten Island but I'm betting that most of it was turned over to the locals (like most of the old enlisted housing in Newport) when the Navy pulled out.

Philly has a horrendous sea detail in terms of time (worse than Charleston).  

ShawnP said...

Charlietowner here.........somewhat easy sea and anchor but radnav wasn't the greatest with the swamps. Hardest part was the turn north of the Cooper River Bridges.

ShawnP said...

Largest ship in and out of Bath was the USS Detroit AOE-4 which did a ROH there in the early eighties.

Byron said...

And from the pier to the ocean at Mayport? 10 minutes.

Byron said...

It was the door edge and gasket retainer lip. One cargo door (with a personnel door inside of it) that is individually dogged was opened once with a loose dog at the bottom that was catching. The sailors kept pushing it back and forth till it opened, but by then the door frame was bent about 3 inches. Seriously dumb stuff. Sailors do NOT maintain doors any more, not even a little bit. The one ship that tried ended up with a gasket that had a 1" gap in it (they stretched it around and after the gasket settled, it shortened up).

Byron said...

"<span>why don't they estabblish special duty billits for repair type officers (either warrents or mustangs)  
with the enlisted picked and trained ofr repair duty and station them on TENDERs
."  </span>
<span></span>
<span>Lean manning. The same reason why they closed the SIMA's</span>

Bubba Bob said...

A real navy could build ships. 

William Powell said...

Home port a few in Astoria, OR.  Nice place to live (if you don't mind a little rain :) ) and run them up the river to Portland for repair work.  Portland would be a nice home port except for the horribly long S&A detail.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Good ones, anyway.

ShawnP said...

My record was 7 minutes from bow out Charlie Pier to STJ. Oh what a joy that Sea and Anchor was for OS's.

LT Rusty said...

I never timed it, TBH, but there were a couple times on ROOSEVELT under (then) CDR Bobola that we were still at double-digit speeds with the first digit not being a 1 or a 2 when we broke the plane and entered the basin at Mayport.

Good times.  That guy was a hell of a ship driver.  My favorite quote from him:  "ENS [Rusty], this is a warship, so please drive it like one!"  

guest said...

Some of you keep saying the sea & anchor detail is too long, yet we put a carrier in Bremerton...

C-dore 14 said...

I've done that sea detail and it is long but the CVNs don't do anything until they get to SOCAL anyway.

ShawnP said...

CAPT Balboa was my XO on the Gettysburg.

LT Rusty said...

Ah, that explains your short S&A

mark said...

Tried that line at Crane, not so good.

Anonymous said...

Since it is still retro wednesday out here in Seattle. I remember growing up and listening to stories of NAS Atlantic City, NAS Quonset Point, NAS Glenview, NAS Seattle, NAS Hutchinson, NAS Rockaway, NAS South Weymouth;  and carriers based out of places like NYC, Quonset Point RI, Boston MA; a big reason a number of the northern mid-atlantic and New England states started to be ruled out in the post vietnam downsize was validate primarly due to the nice Nor'Easters that come rip roaring through there and at times prevent deployments and other things like that.
That being said, I really wish we could bring some of the smaller home ports for units, but like everyone else is saying you need to validate the change in the infrastructure. Remember we use to have Naval Yards stretching up and down both coasts and in Hawaii that were fully capable of handling some of the supercarriers and destroyers at the same time. We also had numerous yards around that were also capable of handling the odd destroyer/cruiser ship where the commute from home port wasn't that bad. So instead of being at Mare Island your across the bay in Alameda or up from San Dog to Long Beach, or from Sand Point over in Bremerton; whatever. If you want to make this work, then you need to create a new economy of shipbuilders. Break up NG and Lockheed monopolies, along with BIW. Feed some stuff to guys like Todd (if they are even still around), solict bids for small combatants (ie LCS sized) from small yards in various regions to help them understand the difference tween civil and mil building standards. We also need to teach a new generation of Shipfitters and hull techs, welders, pipefitters, etc. I am sure Byron can attest he is in a dying breed of the economy.

C-dore 14 said...

Guest, Around the time I retired Todd Seattle was getting contracts to conduct FFG/DDG SRAs and you occasionally see a Navy ship over there when you take the ferry over from Kitsap.  Still, as you correctly point out, Todd is a shadow of its former self.  My first ship, a KNOX-Class DE, was built there.  Doubt they could do that now.

Byron said...

Good plan, I'm all for it. Wonder if the economy is...

Byron said...

I was there when she came into the basin hell bent for leather. Scared the crap out of me, it did, since I was working a ship over on Bravo pier :)

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

Both are SOUTH DAKOTA class BBs.  Good ships, but very cramped.  The design was used, in a very stretched form, as the basis for the IOWA class, such as the incompareable BIG BADGER BOAT.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

ERROR! ERROR!  Too early in AM to post!  NORTH CAROLINA was lead ship of the NORTH CAROLINA class. She and WASHINGTON were superbly well made ships, being the only fast battleships made while the US was still at peace. They did have problems with vibration from the screws, which seemingly was caused by the shape of the propellor shaft skegs. ( See Ivan Musicant's Battleship at War: the Epic Story of USS Washington. , or, in your case, Wharf Rat, call him and ask, he lives in The Cities, as we say in the Upper Midwest.)  For some reason, my poor little brain looked in the wrong file drawer, and came up with BB-55=USS MASSACHUTSETTS, I apologise for my error.  ALABAMA, however, IS a SOUTH DAKOTA.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

One could make a standard "Tender" hull out of a container ship. and fit it out as needed with container based shops.  Ulike the LCS, this would probably work.

AW1 Tim said...

There was a rather large crowd onhand to witness Detroir's departure.  A large number of those present were saying "Good Riddance", Even today some folks still talk about all the problems the area had with Detroit Sailors.

Skippy-san said...

One other side benefit of Charleston. USNA graduates would be able to see what a real militart college looks like! :-P

Skippy-san said...

One other benefit of Charleston. The Navy would get to see what  a real military college looks like! :-P

Byron said...

Granpa, what you and the good CDR are asking for is a monumental sea change in the way the Navy does business. The Navy got out of the business of doing it's own repairs years ago and just flat gave up on doing much of anything that sounds like the word "repair". You'd be amazed at how little sailors understand about their systems today. It sucks but it's the sad truth. It's not nearly as bad as the loss of skilled craftsmen on my side, but at least we continue to gain institutional knowledge which is extremely important when dealing with complex systems.

I agree! Lets get tenders! Lets get new spread out homeports! Now, you tell me how you're going to make it work, and WHO is going to do the work. Deal with the real world of Navy ship repair, not the "looks cool in a blog" world.

Curtis said...

The word we had was that we were the last.  The Todd bastards new that.  Polar Sea or Polar Star came in for voyage repairs that killed a sailor.  One of the Todd Shipyard crane operators pulling a loaded skip off the flight deck drove it into the just upgraded and uploaded RIM-7M launcher as we prepped to leave for sea trials.  He was hi and drunk based on the tests that could not be used to convict him.  I had NIS in at my own request based on the misbehavior of NSWES techs and malfeasance of the SUPSHIP.  We capped it by running down the radiation buoy off the coast and then outperforming ourselves by planning to reenter the Strait with a hot 5 inch gun.  I think we should struggle to join the USCG and only send unarmed ships into that place.  We freaked out the hotel accross the bay with bottom bounce triple freak until the shipyard realized that that's really really loud and put up the sonic barrier.

pk said...

i don't know about navy but i believe that commercial tankers are required to run from the entrance to the straits all the way to seattle with a tug on a stern line.
supposed to be for emergency steering or some such thing.

C

pk said...

senator was supposedly cranston.
c

C-dore 14 said...

Mike M, You're right there.  As a junior LCDR I was a "gofer" and "slide-flipper" for the Strategic Homeporting briefing and Congressional support was the name of the game (although we used "reduced vulnerability" as the rationale).  After one session I remember a Hill staffer comment that Lehman would base a "...battleship in Omaha if he could figure out a way to do it".

C-dore 14 said...

Of course it all averages out when you slow to a crawl when you set the "Right Whale Watch".  ;)

pk said...

you gotta remember that the  terriffic majority of the uniformed people are basically teenagers. it takes many years to pick up on the minor things that make a ship work. i spent 3+ years on a tender during the viet nam fun and games and a life time working in a PUBLIC shipyard after that.

my take on this is that the sailors are pretty good at fixing a hole in the side that you couold drive a truck through good enough to get her home,
but they area weak with the details, like putting collars on holes in the frames where they lead cables through and when they put the quill together
for the reduction gears for SSTG's to put the slots in the body bound bolts in line so the damn thing won't howel in service, and when pulling no smoke cable to be sure to .........  and on and on and on.

one other thing is that sandcrabs work 8 hours and then swing shift takes over for 8 hours then graveyard takes over for 8 hours , then dayhift comes back....  sailor simply spin their hats and after a couple of days even the best of them do some pretty dumb things. they just can't help it.

c

pk said...

je ^&^ #$rist.  (curse word)

C

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Assuming there is one Admiral left in the Navy who cares about ships and sailors and victory more than anything else, give him a Group and tell him to fix it.

Who is going to do the work? John and Jane Gob. After we train them a bit. Who will train them?  The Warrant Officers and Chiefs, and LDO's and Line Officers, and Supply Officers, and Salvage and Diving Officers and Dentists and Doctors, and Naval Ships Engineering Center's Maintenence Engineers and the Petty Officers at the Submarine Bases and TorpFacs.

With respect, the last twenty years have been a monumental SHORE change. Real sea officers and warrants and LDO's and Chiefs and PO's don't think the way the perfumed princes of the shore staffs who foisted this travesty on the fleet do.

How am I going to make it work? Would that I were young enough. But the NSTM and Basic Hand Tools and Fluid Power and the Blue Bastard's Bible and Navy Regs are all still there or can be exhumed and reprinted. There are copies of the SIB's available to reproduce and distribute. Most of them are in CD's in an office somewhere unavailable in the work space, but there are plenty of printers and paper.  Get the manuals in the hands of the sailors, start teaching  and make the kids explain what they are going to do before they try it.

One hell of a lot of the problem is not reading and quizzing the kids on the PMS cards and tech manuals before they start. If the Lt has to take the Chief and go through every MRC in the deck with the first and second class for the first quarter, so be it.

A good start is to teach them how to run a tagout/EDL the first day they get on board.

Then have the Captain review it with the Dept Heads, one section a day, after supper. Like so, NavOps - Mon; Eng- Tues; WepsDeck-Wed; Supply-Food Service Thurs: XO/ADMIN-Fri-Field Day-Fish Dinner. PB for T Sat.

One other tip, check those annoying bubbleheads, some of them are pretty smart or used to be, they might have some ideas that would help the rest of the outfit, if you can get them to talk.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

PS - Don't forget Blueprint Reading and Sketching. Verry important.

In the long run, an ethic and discipline which requires constant learning and unrelenting craftsmanship save money. What ever it may cost to revive it.  Mostly the cost is in blood (from knuckles and brows), sweat, tears, and stomach lining. As ever it has been.

Bubba Bob said...

We can't even build bad ones.  If you stand and look back through England, through Rome to Athens, ours is the first generation without Naval Shipyards building naval ships. 

A free people need a strong navy.  When you hand off all your shipbuilding capacity to others your government is weak. 

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Keep the gummit out of skilled trade apprentice training. Let the companies do it.  Newport News builds good ships, or used to. They always had a crackerjack Apprentice School.
They seemed to think it was all part of the business.

A union can do it if they keep the nepotism out, which most don't. That cost Ford plenty, GM and Chrysler - the ranch.

Somebody asked Hank the Deuce (Henry Ford II) how many people worked for him. "'Bout half", he said.

Me I'm glad I joined the Navy...and left when I did. The last two decade have been unrelenting decline.

As we all know.

xformed said...

And as an AOR Sailor, we hated both SEATTLE and DETROIT...they were constantly swapping pumps for the main spaces and we'd get a msg to head out for their commitments...

xformed said...

In "Fresh Water Submarines" that was addressed for the build up.  The core were mostly grandfather/father/son families, and then when aluminum for the pot and pan maker for the area shut down, the workforce moved to the shipyard, and a training program leveragedc off their skills.  Had to get buses to haul them to work, but helped the work force grow quickly for Manitowac Shipbuilding

Byron said...

Sigh...Grandpa, these kids can't even pull their own reversable bolts out, clean the socket out, put anti-seize on them and put them back in per their own PMS. We just had to cut out and replace 22 of them.

Who is going to teach them how to do what I do? If I handed a drawing to your average chief or master chief the only thing he's going to get out of it is a headache. Who's going to do the welding? Every General Workshop I go to has a lot of dusty welding equipment. The sailors who could once do high quality aluminum welding? they all work for us now because they had to learn how to do it right somewhere. Grandpa, your Navy pissed away ALL of it's institutional knowledge of how to fix ship years ago. I've got URL officers as NAVSEA who absolutely don't have a clue....and the ones that retired 20 years ago are just freaking outstanding to work with.

I'm sorry about this. More sorry than you could possibly know. But I really don't think anyone here understands the depth of the problem you have with your sailors knowledge level today. Sailors 20 years ago were pretty good. Sailors today, even the Chiefs, not nearly so much.

Tagouts? Let me tell you about tagouts. Tuesday I had to tagout a vent fan motor to repair the short piece of vent coming off of it. I gave the EM1 the motor number. 20 minutes later he comes back and asks ME where it's at! I had to go show it to him. This is a FIRST CLASS PO! Then he spent another 20 minutes looking for the breakers. When it came time to authorize the tag in eSoms I found out that I'd been deleted from the list of users. That's when he tells me the only two guys who have admin on the boat aren't there...one on leave, one on liberty. Now that wouldn't be so bad...but CHENG was aboard and HE wasn't an admin!! Makes you wonder who's running the division, the LT CHENG or the WO3 MPA...

cdrsalamander said...

Wow, over 100 comments on a post I almost didn't do.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

ICFBI. 

ShawnP said...

Record was actually on FF-1082..........with CDR Higgins onboard.

ShawnP said...

Add in the mysterious story of the steam drum accident onboard the Detroit in the late eighties. Did or did not the BT's know someone was in there when doing maintenance. Maybe others remember this horrific story.

Byron said...

I wish you didn't have to...truly. It's to weep. How about two months ago, on DDG-xx, where we were tasked to repair a couple of bent lifeline stanchions and turn over some three strand white and snap clips to the ship, and the BM1 had to admit that he and no one else in his division, including the BMC knew how to braid the rope? THAT was my "YGTBSM" moment. And sailors are going to do even the simplest of structural or piping repairs?

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

Good book!  Alas, my copy's glue in the binding is drying out, and it is starting to shed pages.

Southern Air Pirate said...

Hey Y'all that was me. Silly NMCI didn't take my google log-in

Grandpa Bluewater said...

I think what you are describing is a training problem caused by a lack of valuing of the old crafts, and aging ships reaching the point where the maintenence MUST be done,  Too manpower intensive has all too often really meant chronic undermanning and diversion of energy to internal political issues rather than craftsmanship and supervision.

As fine a recipe for decline as ever existed. It comes from fads in lieu of management.

The bright side is ignorance is remediable, if you want to fix it. Just stay away from the snake oil.

Salty Gator said...

Now all we need to do is actually FUND TRAINING and we can maybe buy some of that expertise back that we're supposed to have.  But the sad reality is that we became reliant on distance support and contractor maintenance packages. The offset was to kill training expertise to conduct corrective maintenance and in some cases, like LCS and DDG 1000 and LPD-17, even some forms of PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE.

Grandpa, I'm all for your idea.  But before we do this, we have to make training right again!

Salty Gator said...

<span>Now all we need to do is actually FUND TRAINING and we can maybe buy some of that expertise back that we're supposed to have.  But the sad reality is that we became reliant on distance support and contractor maintenance packages. The offset was to kill training expertise to conduct corrective maintenance and in some cases, like LCS and DDG 1000 and LPD-17, even some forms of PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE by non-navy CONTRACTORS.  
 
Grandpa, I'm all for your idea.  But before we do this, we have to make training right again!</span>

James said...

So let me get this straight.

Our navy builds ships to not get hit basically and be the most efficent per dollar. Then doesnt train them how to properly repair the vessels if they do get hit in a time of war?

Please tell me im wrong here ;(

C-dore 14 said...

James, You're apparently a newcomer to this site.

Byron said...

No. It just looks that way sometimes.

LifeoftheMind said...

One of my XOs was Oliver Hazard Perry III and Hap Perry had this LT and a Chief personnally resealing a water tight door, even though it wasn't really my Division's responsibility, because he felt we needed the training. He was a Sailor.

Byron said...

Then you had an XO who understood the importance of watertight integrity and who had no qualms about making that point to an officer and a chief, who then made sure that every sailor in their division understood it also. Good for OH Perry III! Sounds like a damn good XO.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

All too well.  The Father of the kid who got killed was a retired MM or BT. Tragic and avoidable, utterly horrific.

sobersubmrnr said...

<span> "The Navy makes navigation too hard."</span>

Amen, Brother! Having done a *little* merchant time, I agree that the Navy overdoes it with Nav teams. Fewer bodies with more competance is the way to go.

ET1(SS) - former QM2(SS), Ret.

MIke said...

It can be done, the Coas Guard has been doing it lean for years and I believe they have a ship (cutter) in Wlimington & Charleston as well as many other small ports on both coasts.

C-dore 14 said...

ShawnP, You're correct, although there was nothing "mysterious" about it.  Tagout and other safety procedures were routinely ignored by the engineers there.  The sailor who died was cleaning watersides on the idle boiler with (unauthorized) single valve protection between him and the steaming one.  Unfortunately the valve maintenance program on DETROIT was also non-existent and the valve leaked by sending live steam into the steam drum where the kid was working.  Initially they thought he was going to pull through but he had inhaled the steam into his lungs while escaping from the boiler.  

LifeoftheMind said...

I have Hap Perry stories. He was about 5' 6" tall and about 4' 6" wide and you normally saw his tonsils first because he was yelling at you. He ran that ship, not the crazy no good Captain. In today's Navy where you can get court martialed for tossing a wad of paper at someone I can't imagine him. The Chief wasn't even mine, the XO just grabbed us and put us to work on the door between his stateroom and the weather deck. I had Deck, so come to think of it the door may have been mine, and the Chief was from Engineering.

Here is my favorite 2 memories of him;
1. Once during GQ I had the sound powered headphones on the Bridge to communicate with some weapons stations. The XO saw the cord was twisted and made me dance around counter clockwise before everyone to unspin the twisted cord without taking off the headset.

2. My troops got tired of shiming the brass on an alarm bell behind the ASROC and asked if they could paint it red. Not being quite as dumb as I looked I stalled and went to the XO. He told me a story about Lord Louis Mountbatten. He explained that Lord Louis was a real sailor and naval hero who invented the Manuevering Board. He told me that if Lord Louis was coming aboard you would make everything look as good as you could while being combat ready, you would polish the brass and scrape the rust but if his lordship saw the normal wear and tear or a spot of rust, well that was OK because you were a warship and he would understand. But the XO said if Lady Mountbatten came on your ship then you would pour some grey wash over the rust stains and slap red over any green brass. After telling me that the XO asked me what I intended to do and I said "Polish the brass XO."

I know that I was in the Navy, the real US Navy, Oliver Hazard Perry's Navy. Maybe Army JOs who looked around 40 to 4 years ago and saw they were serving with men named Patton and others whose families have served for generations. My family have been here for a little over a hundred years. It is part of America's strength that we do not have a decaying feudal caste. It is also part of our strength that we have those who care for what this nation means and have passed down that sense of duty through the generations.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Smaller?  Well Ok, smaller than a bird farm.  Big enough to Med Moor and take a cruiser alongside to port and stbd AS the pier. Cranes big enough to service the second ship outboard in the nest, and with a ro-ro ramp astern and a helo deck above it.