Sigh. Her sporty older sister is in the background too. I still think we made a huge mistake not going with the F-14D new production. Range, range, range; payload, payload, payload.
H/T B.
41 minutes ago
Tuesday, June 28, 2011
A beautiful girl regardless of what she is wearing ...
Sigh. Her sporty older sister is in the background too. I still think we made a huge mistake not going with the F-14D new production. Range, range, range; payload, payload, payload.
H/T B.
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<span>We suck.</span>
It's another clear example of how everything the 'Great Satan' spawns should be rejected and ridiculed to your populace UNLESS the same regime finds it useful in helping to stay in power!
Unfortunately, the F-14 was unsustainable. Great airframe, great capabilities. But 80 manhours of maintenance for 1 hour of flight time?? What we needed was a redesign, an F-14E perhaps, that could bring that maintenance requirement down to a reasonable level.
I think that's the first time I've ever heard the F-4 ("proof positive that even a brick will fly, given enough thrust"), referred to as "sporty"... ;)
<span>I think that's the first time I've ever heard the F-4 ("proof positive that even a brick will fly, given enough thrust", in the words of one of my colleagues), referred to as "sporty"... <img></img></span>
<span>I think that's the first time I've ever heard the F-4 ("proof positive that even a brick will fly, given enough thrust", in the words of one of my blue suit colleagues), referred to as "sporty"... ;) </span>
I still question that 80-1 metric that everyone quotes (was that just NAVAIR PR to satisfie the "I want a neater new toy." argument?). I wonder what it really is for the F/A 18 E/F. What will if be for hte JSF?
An equally big loss I think was the A-6. If it was still fllyable and updated for smart bombs, it would have been a great tool to have in AFG and IRQ.
In reference to the loss of the A-6...please see my original comment.
I guess I look at the argument about retiring the F-14 more from a CAP / Defensive counter air point of view instead of a strike view. More important than the airframe itself, perhaps, is the loss of the AWG 9 radar and AIM 54 phoenix missile system. A successor to that system should have been developed, one much better than AMRAAM or however you spell it. Having an airplane that still requires an APU to spool up on the flight deck is a bit retrograde for me, but losing the max engagement range for a carrier strike group combat air patrol is inexcusable.
Oh Please! The reason the man hours rose per maintenance hour is the age of the airframes and the lack of support infrastructure after an airframe is no longer manufactured nor supported by the manufacturer or the other sub contractors. The same could be said of the B-52, KC-135, B707, B727, Hawker Harrier, MiG-21, MiG-23, a slew of other aircraft that were very popular in the late 1970's and 1980's. So that 80 to 1, though it might be accurate really doesn't reflect the fact that the Navy and Northup Grumman gave up on the airframe after the decision to replace it with a new build in the F-18E/F. We could have survived making the Delta Tomcat working until either F/X program worked or an Echo variant of the F-14 was introduced.
I will say this as well on the rest of the CVW we have other aircraft that are hitting high maintenance hours per flight hour as well. Aircraft that the communities have been screaming for new builds, but we have been told aren't sexy enough to earn a replacement or just be elminated. THe S-3's were hitting high maintenance hour per flight hour and as cost savings the Navy decided to eliminate those airframes, the E-2 and C-2's are hitting high maintenance hours (and even worst longer depot time for rework) per flight hour. Even the F-18A/B/C/D are starting to hit that high maintenance hour per flight hour simply cause they have had a number of flight hours are starting to reach high time with them without replacement or replenishment.
I remember when VADM Dunleavy came to Oceana to explain the decision to canx the F-14D. Since Dunleavy was an NFO, his action was taken as an out right betrayal by many of the RIOS and others in the room. The Admiral did not mince words in his explanation-explaining very carefully how the A-12 had put Naval Aviation in a big hole-and it all came down to the money.
It was one of the most contentious public meetings I ever got to see between a flag officer and a crowd of assembled JO's and others. A couple of times it came to shouting from the audience-I was shocked Dunleavy did not walk out a couple of times.
Sadly-the performance advantage of the super Tomcat was glossed over-and the F-14D's that we did buy proved their value again and again. Either way-I thought it was admirable that instead of telling the JO's to just sit down and shut up, he actualy took the time to come confront the masses and defend his decision personally. Can you see any of the current crop of flags doing that?
The current FOGOs would blog or twitter about it instead and then congratulate themselves for being in touch given their use of the "new media."
I'm sorry, but it didn't come down to the money. It came down to the Platform Wars. The TACAIR community was defining themselves by the airplane they flew...which meant that when the Hornet community saw the opportunity, they cut the throat of the Tomcat community.
Regardless of merits or impact to the Navy's fighting power. The S-3 went the same way.
I'd argue the bigger loss was : 1) APG-71 Radar 2) JTIDS 3) the ability to put a TARPS pod on any aircraft. The bigger bomb load was just a bonus. And the F-14 community wrote the book for how to do airborne FAC, something our Hornet brethren seem to conviently forget.
VADM Dunleavy was a product of the A-6 community and put all his chips on the stealth follow-on A-12 - remember it was a "Black" program until the cost overruns forced the hand - and Cheney killed it. Concur with Mike M. - VADM Ready was next at CNAL and didn't forsee the move by the Hornet guys .......
i thought it was crony capitalism. didn't mcdonnell douglas threaten to go out of business if the navy went with the super tomcat?
it's actually worse than that - Grumman presented a firm fixed price proposal to deliver the Tomcat 21 - an upgraded version with the engines from the D, most of the A-12 avionics and significant low-observable improvements - for significantly less than the projected cost of the F-18E/F (before that program experienced exploding cost growth). Superior capability, modern RM&A and ready two years before the promised IOC of the F-18E/F. Low risk, since the avionics upgrades had already been developed and tested. We proposed continued F-14D production as an interim measure, with later retrofit of those A/C to T21. (I didn't work on the proposal, but knew people who did).
The Navy rejected the proposal out of hand. A political decision had been made to reduce the number of tactical aircraft prime contractors, and Grumman was the selected victim.
How's that working out?
"How's that working out?"
----
It's been transformational!
Further, what an ironic stand against "diversity."
It is always about the dollars.
Range. Range. Range.
Payload. Payload. Payload.
And just a bit of speed, as well.
I mean, a supersonic fighter that can go supersonic? That's... unprecedented!
Not entirely, but more and more the higher you go. There have been at lot of questionable decisions coming from the head shed for about two decades.
It doesn't seem to be getting better. Airplanes, I got nothin', not my circuit.
I offer one thing. Parochial is BAD. Parochial and less capability for the task force is VERY bad.
The good of the Navy is paramount. Not the good of the fork tongued devil selling killing a capability in favor of something bright and shiny that won't do what you have now can.
What ever the rank and specialty.
But we all know that. Don't we?
...and Chinese are starting to emulate old soviet doctrines with heavy bombers delivering heavy ASCMs... Tu-16 Badger derivatives, but still dangerous with right tactics...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMeLFEq58QU
mushroom over US carrier is something I'd not like to see...
...and supreme irony would be Iranian F-14 downing US E-2 in an opening salvo of new gulf war... they just might scavenge enough spares to make Phoenix working...
(shudder)
I understand the need to save money by standardizing the airframes in use, and will also allow for the superior maneuverability of the F-18s, due in large part to the interactions with the flight control computer.
All that said, had new Tomcat airframes with upgraded electronics, and materials where possible, been worked into the long range plans I believe that not only would the infamous 80-to-1 maintenance/flight hour figure so often spoken of been drastically reduced, but also the manueverability increased dramatically; within the limitations of the physical situation.
That coupled with the superior speed, range, radar, TARPS, and the Phoenix missile system would have guaranteed the Navy a dominant front-line fighter for many years.
But, you know, I'm probably biased...
Indeed, we do.
Super Hornets are often TANKERS now. Here's a photo of how CVN air wings frequently utilize many of their Super Hornets:
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/080423-N-1745W-365.jpg
Back up a decade or more, and this photo appears to be reversed. Recall the old KA-6 Tankers which were dedicated to refueling fighters. Now we see 4 giant fuel tanks strung beneath some F-18E and some F-18F since they are both used while deployed for tanking. Just to help top off our outbound CVN Strike a/c as they proceed into to Afghanistan, etc. searching for the huge USAF land based tankers which will enable them to eventually reach their inland tgts.
"Sporty" as always ready for a fight. Say what you want - she has quite the combat proven record ... and could take a hit.
To be honest, I think Phoenix was on the way out in any event. The motors were reaching the end of their life. AAAM was supposed to replace it, but got fed into the Great Peace Dividend (i.e. pork barrel) of the 1990s.
On the other hand, you could probably lug 8-10 AMRAAMs on an upgraded Tomcat...and carry them a LONG way.
I thought he was a VP guy...?
Above HELMUND Province in Afghanistan, USAF heavy tanker refuels USN fighters, well inland.
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=63605
Could an F-14 fly this far without the assistance of large land-based air tankers ? Read reports of some USN carrier pilots refueling up to 4 or 5 times on a single mission to / from Afghanistan. How old are these USAF tankers anyway ?
I keep hitting my bookmark for Salamander, but Lex's place comes up...
Wait a minute! CDR is going all airedale again.
Go find some more LCS pics for us to carp over.
<span>Unfortunately, the F-14 was unsustainable.</span>
<span></span>
<span>Now. wait a minute...</span>
<span></span>
<span>This doesn't pass the Caveman test.</span>
<span></span>
<span>If its so hard, then how come the Iranians have kept them flying -even with the embargo- for a decade longer than the USN?</span>
Oh...
And I would say those particular examples -pretty though they be- wouldn't look so bad with an SM-2 up their a[fterburner cans]s...
How much less a reliance on tankers would there be if a modern all Hornet CVW didn't sport the same effective combat radius of a circa 1945 Essex air group?
Dude. JPME baby ... I'm all about the Joint. Scroll down for InfRon talk if you need a fix.
It is ok to go Joint, just don't inhale!
Kinda like a late 60s bigblock Chevelle. Sucked a lot of gas, fast in a straigt line, couldn't hangle worth a crap, and still more than a few examples around generations later. Oh, and parts on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Navy-Martin-Baker-MK-H7-Ejection-Seat-F-4-Phantom-II-/180675868421?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a111ef705
But the canted SuperBugTanks look bada$$...
Just say NO to drugs! :-D
a burst right over that sucker yes, but anything less than that its not such a sure thing.
remember its a ship. ships are built to take heavy weather, the building standards on the "ships of the line" have been boosted over the years to resist such nonsense. and thats just the ship herself, you don't think that mayby the screen the local defense and the airwings might have a little to say in the matter.
we didn't put a lot of blood sweat and tears into aegis for nothing and a nuke attack on a battle group would be the payday for that.
i would say that furball would describe it mildly.
C
I didn't think the Iranians still had any functional F14's. I think I had read that they could not maintain the radar and fire control systems and were unable to get parts for the planes after they took over our embassy and otherwise acted like assholes.
Didnt the navy have a aircraft capable of doing the refueling job quite well........damn what was it called? A something......hmm.
When I was in Jr. High I had dreams of attending the US Naval Academy and being an F-14 "RIO"/NFO (my eyesight was bad) in WESTPAC
i wonder how the IAF F-15D "Baz", F-15I "Ra'am" & F-16I "Sufa" will do over Iran ;)
problem is , with F-14 present, Aegis would be possibly not needed, or at least much less tested... 90% succes intercept is a bit of not enough when enemy launches 120 missiles at you
Back when I was in that part of the world they used the AWG-9 in an AWACS function...
A Whale! Even more give-away than the Intruder or the Hoover, plus a high Mach number cruise to keep well up with the strike packages. BTW, last <span>ever</span> A-3 flights about to happen as the last two Whales standing fly out next week; one to North Island (for shipping to Hawaii) and one to Pensacola.
I note that the probe doors have been removed. Either they cannot manufacture that part or suck at tanking and have removed them (like some squadrons did when facing the KC-135 wrecking ball) to prevent an engine FOD.
In exercises, Bomcats with 4x 1000lb'ers would contempt of engage opposing force legacy Hornets and press on to bomb their target. Note that the legacy Hornet is "faster" than the Super Slow Hornet. Note that the F-14 is in the same speed class as the SU-3x. A platform now proliferating thoughout the Pacific Rim.
...and you didn't need radar to track it.
Helicopters > UAVs > Jets
i believe that aegis would be in the room even with that situation.
C
Yes. Layers. Onion Defense.
Hornet just compresses that outside layer, needing to tank while still going down the cat.
/sarcasm
I wonder how are the Chinese doing in integrating their ASCMs into the Flanker platform? That would give them sort of Backfire lite...
Dumbass and badass are not synonymous.
I've seen US squadrons do the same.
Grumman was certainly a clever choice to remove from NAVAIRs suppliers list. After all, 60+ years of Cats being the top predators on the air is less important than the cool factor of the single plane that can do everything plan.
thanks for posting, Sal.
B :)
Her colours may be wrong, her current owners unwelcome, her maintenance god knows what; but at least for a short while she got to have an accompanying Felix patch that marked her unquestionably as part of the same proud cat litter.
'Ali-Cat' patch from the time of her delivery to the Shah and the Imperial Iranian Air Force.
I have a patch and a couple of stickers from the Imperial Iranian Air Force F-14 program. Given to me from a contractor who was there right when the Shah fell and they had to...eh hem...relocate some very important missiles.
Point taken; I think I might have used "feisty" in that context but will defer to DB on the proper use of English adjectives, as I am but a humble, functionally illiterate EE... :-[
Andy:
Please keep me updated on that event - thnx!
W/r, SJS
Should've seen Tomcat21 ... But the A-12 killed that and spawned the Super Bug.
Well in this casse the effect looks cool but the affect to perfomance with canted tanks is like throwing up a big sea anchor. 'Spose I should have added the /sarcasm close tag.
Ditto - especially the one going to P-cola.
We had the misfortune of being located in a state that was politically irrelevant to the Republicans and represented by Senators and Congressman who supported cuts to the military. I still remember watching in disbelief as Ted Kennedy argued for the necessity of expanding F-18 production - to keep the GE plant in Lynn, MA (just up the road from my current domicile) busy.
Ahhh I'm clueless. Whales, Crusaders and Intruders!
I think it stemmed from a visit to the plant by then SECNAV Lehman who was there for Grumman to show off the reduced signature A-6 (I sh*t you not). Anyway, word was Lehman went high and right, chewed everyone a new hole and came back convinced that Grumman didn't "get it" where stealth was concerned (and MACAIR certainly had with the A-12 :-[ ) and from that point on, Grumman was persona non grata and it's days as a primary airframe provider were numbered.
w/r,
SJS
The F-18 Tanker-also known as the "self licking ice cream cone".
With all due respect-the E-2 would detect the Tomcat as soon as it left the runway. Thank God for IFF!
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