Saturday, June 18, 2011

Rust never sleeps ... on LCS-2

I think we know one of the reasons why LCS-2 has an open tab at Singleton's.
The U.S. Navy has discovered “aggressive” corrosion in Austal Ltd. (ASB)’s first new combat ship designed for operating close to shore.

The corrosion is in the propulsion areas of the USS Independence, the Littoral Combat Ship built by the Mobile, Alabama-based subsidiary of Australia’s Austal and General Dynamics Corp. (GD)

“This could be a very serious setback,” said Norman Polmar, an independent naval analyst and author in Alexandria, Virginia. “If the ship develops a serious flaw, you’re not going to continue producing them.”

Permanent repair will require drydocking the ship and removing its “water jets,” a key component of the propulsion system, the Navy said in a written statement to congressional appropriations committees provided to Bloomberg News.

Aluminum-hulled ships such as Austal’s tend to rust faster than steel-hulled ships, Polmar said. “But I’m surprised it happened so early,” he said. “This ship is brand new.”
And they want to operate this for a couple of decades + with minimal manning in tropical seas ....

Sigh.

Speaking of sub-optimal. Our pal Craig Hooper needs to go to PAO school.
While not discussing LCS-2, U.S.S. Independence, specifically, Craig Hooper, Austal’s vice president for sales, marketing and external communication said that “dynamic corrosion is a common problem for any ship.

“It’s a known issue,” Hooper said, “and fixes are widely known in the maritime community.”
Craig. Dude.

Byron, call you office.
Navy officials were concerned about the potential for corrosion during construction of the ship because of “dissimilar metals,” particularly near the steel propulsion shafts, Bloomberg reported.
We were discussing this problem with the design what - well over four years ago?

84 comments:

Byron said...

Sweet Jesus...probably has something to do with all the water I was told about in the shaft tunnels. See,when you get bare aluminum wet with salt water, then run air across it, every little scratch and nick will start to corrode (something about passing electrons easier). You see these little white spots that are the aluminum version of rust. It looks like wet salt.

If there is dissimillar metal, then possibly (I don't know, they won't let us lowly Mayport boys on board) there's a steel engine bed or possibly steel shaft bearing bolted to the aluminum framing. IF there is, then there is a standard procedure: a several mil thickness of what looks like electrical tape to separate the two metals. Its been around for 30 years that I know off, from back in the days of huck-riveted aluminum deckhouses to a steel coaming.

Last, but certainly not least, this is what you get when you don't paint the freaking aluminum. Everyone thinks, well, aluminum is not like steel, it doesn't rust. Nope..but neither does STEEL. Thats because the process is known as "OXIDATION"...not "rust". The exact same process.  Wonder if that floating pig has a degaussing setup, and lots of zinc anodes?

Tom Goering said...

With the "Go Green" movement in full swing, we should recycle these ships into beer cans while there is still some aluminum left.

xbradtc said...

Apparently the "transformational" part was "aluminum alloy to aluminum oxide"

DeltaBravo said...

If they get rid of the rust, what will hold the little crappy ship together?

pk said...

if they don't have a very sophisticated cathodic protection system (active electric) and about five tons of zinc anodes (cast at the proper temperature and verified by an inspector as having electrical conductivity with the aluminum)  or ABSOLUTLY no brass, bronze or other "yellow metal" fittings around the shafts and impellors  it will happen extremely rapidly.

i would speculate that if there are brass/bronze wearing rings in the jet pumps, or bronze stave bearing shells the areas just down stream of the jet pump impellors are probably gone.  

they are probably having to cut the piping down stream of the jet pumps out and install what amounts to sea chests with "waster sleeves" for most of their length or for at least 5 diameters.

what happens is that a speck of corrosion forms and is washed away by the water flow and then another speck forms in the hole left behind. then that speck gets washed away.........

i have seen the heads of the flange bolting on propellor shafts for aircraft carriers eaten away entirely when the coupling covers dropped off and they didn't get into dry dock fast enough.

C

Anonymous said...

<span>Navy officials were concerned about the potential for corrosion during construction of the ship because of “dissimilar metals?"</span>

Any boat-schooler who passed Plebe chem could have told you this was going to happen.  Jeesh, who's the idiot at NAVSEA who thought buying this sh*t...err ship, was a good idea?

NAnoymous said...

Sorry, that was from me.

Stu said...

You were the guy at NAVSEA?  YIKES!

;)

Stu said...

Hope with a sprinkling of diversity.

Clarkward said...

Stu, I snorted my coffee!  Well put!

Old Farter said...

Time to bring back the wooden ships. MSOs, PT Boats, Blockade Runners..... all Litoral vessels.

sid said...

Sure helps explain this FFC blog entry by Adm Harvey....

Whats said is that those initiatives have to be taken at all.

I'm sure nobody will get blamed either.

Also, its worthwhile to bump up this shocking pic of a rotting away hangar deck.

That no-reason-to-ever-have-gotten-that-bad scale they are sweeping up is forever lost ballistic protection.

When did it become acceptable for sailors to quit taking care of their boats?

UNSAT.

Just. UNSAT.

SJBill said...

Contacting dissimilar metals, in saline environment? Is this ship electrically powered, by Galvanic cells?

sid said...

<span>Whats "sad" is that those initiatives have to be taken at all. 
</span>

sid said...

Old farter...

The skills necessary to take care of wood boats evaporated in the late '60s.

SJBill said...

JCHJr mentions:
Improving Deck-plate Material Readiness and Sailor Proficiency

Admiral, with all respects, let's improve the Deck-plates. The Sailors are just fine, thank you.

Andy said...

So how long has Austal been a shipbuilder or are they the equivalent of Northrop-Grumman and simply purchased a much smaller yard building inshore ferries subject to a much more rigorous daily maintenance system?

sid said...

Austal designs have been noted for weak stern sections.

SJBill said...

Craig Hooper? The name sounds familiar. I think Maggie knows him.
http://nextnavy.com/personal-note-appointed-vice-president-of-sales-marketing-and-external-affairs-at-austal-usa/

sid said...

<span>Wonder if that floating pig has a degaussing setup, and lots of zinc anodes?</span>

Degaussing system?

Now, why in the world would a ship expected to conduct MIW need that?

This ship looks just. too. <span>awesome!</span> to ever need such a thing....

Since when did this term "dynamic corrosion" come into vogue?

Ah...A clue here.

The USN has had steel ships since the 1880s....

And just now it seems that rust is a crisis?!?!?!

sid said...

Oh...and full disclosure....

A chainplate from a "sister ship" owned by a firend which resulted in a dismasting....

(heedful of his experience, during the purchase inspection I detected the crevice corrosion and replaced mine)

sid said...

Yet again...


Follow The Money.

I suspect some mutli-million dollar solutions will be applied to this "problem"....

Byron said...

Actually, they're not. With my own eyes, I watched a yellow-crowed LPO and two second classes spend ten minutes trying to figure out where a valve was so they could tag it out for us. When I got my WAF (Work Authorization Form) signed, they were still sitting there looking at diagrams. The pipe fitter who was waiting for the tag out looked at me and told them, "take a walk with me, I'll show you where it's at and the system it goes to, down stream and upstream".

The Navy has been bleeding core knowledge for twenty years now. Only us yardbirds know this as we get to see them fumbling around more and more. I remember 25 years ago when a set of water wings were a lot harder to get...you actually had to know something.

sid said...

PRIORITIES......

Oh...and for Dr. Polmar...since when do aluminum ships "rust"...?

"Corrode"... he must mean?

Byron said...

Proper tem would be "Oxidize", the process of electrons moving across the electrical field between two different materials (whether it be steel to aluminum or steel to salt water), which in turn will change the surface properties of the two materials at the point of contact.

Remember, the most corrosive element is oxygen...

DeltaBravo said...

Remembering back to ol' high school chemistry... isn't burning and rust the same process, just one is more rapid an oxidation process with higher heat transfer than the other.

Fact is, seems the LCS crew is SOL no matter the speed of oxidation.

Someone needs to take the good idea fairy out behind the barn and shoot her on this one.

Southern Air Pirate said...

So a ship out to sea is corroding. Wow! Next someone is going to tell me that Dihyrdogen Monooxide is safe to drink and not a dangerous chemcial like some claim. Let alone I wonder if anyone talked with the DoD Corrosion Control office about these issues.

Salty Gator said...

nice to see that we learned nothing from our 'metalurgy lessons learned' on LPD 17!

Salty Gator said...

SAP, stick to the skies, buddy.  A ship that has been underway for about 1 month total and is less than 2 years old should not be going in for a "mid-life availability" that requires stripping its engines.

If the design, including the metals selected, is flawed, then you have to discontineu the entire class.  Why?  Because the type of metal that is used in each element and component figures into the holistic calculus of the overall ship design (stressors, fluid dynamics, hydrodynamics, weight, buoyancy, stability, moment, righting arm, etc).  You cannot usually effect a major 1 for 1 switch out with another type of metal unless it is something like the LPD-17 titanium firemain.  Even that required significant analysis and engineering re-design.

James said...

Just gonna put this out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absalon_class_command_and_support_ship

They are also reusing the basic hull design for a AAW frigate. Much cheaper.

So..........I have a idea lets cancel the LCS program and just talk with the Danes.

"The class is based on a <span>frigate</span>-type design, but built with an internal multipurpose deck (flex deck) and a stern vehicle ramp. The ships can serve as command platforms for a staff of 75 persons (naval or joint staff) with a containerized command and control centre, transport and base of operations for a company-sized landing force of some 200 men with vehicles. Alternatively, the flex deck can be used for mine-laying operations with a capacity of some 300 mines, or be fitted out for mine-clearing operations and launch and recover mine detecting and clearing equipment via a retractable gantry crane, adjacent to the stern ramp, which also is used for launching and recovering the fast landing craft. Furthermore the flex deck can support a containerized hospital or simply transport a number of ISO standard containers or some 55 vehicles including, up to 7 <span>MBTs</span>. The ships carry two LCPs (<span>Storebro SB90E</span>), two rigid hull inflatable boats and two medium helicopters."

But hey LCS looks so much better......

Salty Gator said...

there is an initiative called D-SAGT (Deck Self Assessment and Grooming Team) under way, as well as a counter part in the Engineering community.  The idea is to ensure that ships have the real life ability to self assess their materiel condition, to repair it, and to train properly on how to operate it. Sounds kinda mom and apple pie, right?  Unfortunately, Navy training is so hosed up and dollars are so low (not to mention yard maintenance availability time and the fact that most of our sailors don't know how to do maintenance that their predecessors were responsible for) that this is a last ditch effort to re-learn what should have never been lost.

BTW, Admiral LaFleur continues to make millions of dollars as a Navy consultant even after his life's work (crew swap, optimal manning / minimal manning) has proven to be a total disaster.

leesea said...

gee Sal I know you flew aluminum birds, but I believe rust is specific to ferrous metals?

Just going by what has been posted, and a limited knowledge of water jets (my PBR only had the 12 inch size~),  I think we need to determine if this "dynamic corrosion" is really caused by supercavitation in the pump bowl by the impellers?

Assuming that is warranty work, it might be a reason for keeping the ship tied up and for going back tot he builder?   And I am sure replacement jet drives take awhile to fabricate and deliver.

On a related matter, I am hoping the Navy reverses its decision to base both LCS at SDGO.  On a parochial note, we need LCS-2 class in Mayport soonest.  Perrys keep sailling over the horizon regualarly.

AW1 Tim said...

  Of course, that also depends upon how thick a coat of marine poly you paint over everything. :)  

AW1 Tim said...

  And the reason we can't keep making DDG-51's while negotiating for license-built Euro frigates is?

AW1 Tim said...

  And a nice warm welcome aboard for the incomeing CNO, eh?  Man might have wished he'd stayed in submarines after this plays out.

Byron said...

The worst part, Lee, is that BAEs dock won't handle this beast. Asked a friend of mine, a project manager at BAE, he said that the Navy doesn't want to put LCS-2 on BAEs drydock, they're afraid they might have problems with it. Which is kind of stupid, since this drydock can handle CGs and DDGs no problem.

Anonymous said...

Byron, what's the beam in the dock?  That beast is about 100 feet.

pk said...

most pumps have to maintain at least 85% of their rated pressure or they will cavitate and the vibrations of that cavitation will tear up the pump bearings and the bearings of the prime movers. might be what is happening here.

three pumps on a 125# fire main. very warm water in hong kong. the airconditioning load pulled the firemain pressure down to 85#. the "head shed" just had to keep supply computer cool and so we rebuilt the motors 22 times in 5 days. also destroyed a 6-71 jimmey (emergency diesel firepump) in the process.

C

pk said...

these guys better have a really dedicated sound and security watch that actually does the rounds or elese they just might wake up with a couple of feet of water in the berthing compartment at 0300.

and bubbles at pierside where they had a ship yesterday at liberty call.

has been known to happen but usually smaller ships.

pk said...

when these guys admint to "superfine cracks" it probably means they were lucky to get home with the rudder still hanging.

C

pk said...

if you have dissimilar metals (as in steel and bronze) that are quite different on the "electrochemical activity chart" the one that is less active will corrode away.

been a problem since the first guy stepped on a log to get across a creek.

pk said...

what happened to zone inspections? i remember scrubbing rust when i was a 2C  and my first class was right beside me. and that was during viet nam.

C

pk said...

leesea:

what were the discharge pipes on your pbr made of?  copper nickel by any chance.

C

sid said...

<span>they're afraid they might have problems with it. </span>

Remember that Austal bent and twisted the trnasverse beams under the helo deck when they were performing some evolution while the ship was building.

That oughta tell you how skimpy the scantlings really are....

(and I don't give a rat's ass - what Mosally has to say about his Marinette boats' scantlings...haven't trusted a word the man says since 1988)

sid said...

Been there.

Done it too....

Do these "Hybrids" think they are too special to get all slathered up with zinc chromate?

Steel City said...

Now Moose has a real CEO by the name of Chuck Goddard running the show whose last act in the Navy was as an alcoholin' a55 as PEO Ships.  Things are sure to get better now.

CDR Salamander said...

Yep - I think we made that offer about four years ago. 

Anonymous said...

No wonder Gates is leaving. He's been reading the tea leaves.

Squidly said...

Actually, I hear the sub force would rather he go away...not welcome.

Squidly said...

At least you could rebuild/rewind your own motors...I seriously doubt there's any such capability on an LCS...Heck, on the figlet we had to seek out the SRF or visiting tender.  Anything more than bearings (and even then questionable...plus we rarely had spares) you were f'd.

Salty Gator said...

you can, just get rid of the BMD mission because they have minimal capability vs the threat that they are trying to counter.  oh, and load them out with a new ASCM.

Salty Gator said...

let's not forget his problems sexually harassing his own people.

leesea said...

I believe that was because of an operational error while transferring the ship from its building hall to the floating platform used to launch LCS-2.  Problems with ships in docks are pretty common though

I think blocking will be a real problem with LCS-2.  But going back to Mobile to pull the jets sounds more like a "who is going to pay for this construction defect" solution?

leesea said...

jesh man that was 40 yrs ago!  I will have to ask an engineer

Salty Gator said...

before we get out the blamethrower and start hosing down the crew, look at LPD 17.  While plenty of blame can go out to the shipboard leadership, the crews and commands were not set up for success.  In fact, quite the opposite--they were doomed to failure, even if they never slept, never went on liberty and were all incarnations of Halsey, Grandpa Bluewater and Byron rolled into one exquisite hybrid amphibian supercreature.  Examine, as well, exactly how much autonomy each CO has to effect change and alter the plate of dinner that was handed to him.  Not much, which is why many of us are so angry at Harvey's Witch Hunts.

leesea said...

anyone ever hear of tank coatings?~

leesea said...

Go over to Tim Colton's site, to see what he thinks (it isn't nice)

Anonymous said...

ALUMINUM - RUST????? WTFO
IT MUST BE SOME NEW FANGLED MATERIAL.

Homer said...

mmmmmmmm, beeeerrrr

CDR Salamander said...

If you don't know Neil Young and don't know how to have fun with pictures, I can't help you in the blogosphere your screaming pedantic pogue. 

LT B said...

Back, in another life, before the Navy, I used to put buoys and moorings out in the ocean.  We were always concerned w/ dissimilar metals, and biological fouling.  There is a whole science wrapped around dealing w/ those problems.  I thought that the Navy would be at the fore of this and have considered these issues when building ships.  Did they forget the basics?  Have we lost all of our corporate knowledge or have we just punted and let the bean counter build the ships?  I would say penny wise and pound foolish, but look at the cost of these beasts!  Short term expensive, long term expensive, but minimally manned as they fall apart around the 40 Sailors riding them. 

pk said...

we were a tender.

c

pk said...

its all in the specification.

if you want all of these things addressed then put it in the spec. specs for ships and aircraft routinely used to fill moving vans for a single copy (C5A) then the "offerors" will complain about a "to restrictive spec" and that they cannot work to such a restrictive document and bring political pressure to bear to strangle the thing.

C

LT Rusty said...

Byron - 

They must have been a lot harder to get even just 11-12 years ago, too.  I hated my first CHENG with a passion that was hotter than the core of the sun for a lot of different reasons ... but the amount of knowledge he made me gain was not one of them.  Before he'd let me even start standing any of the U/I watches toward my quals, I had to know the location of every single valve and control in the space for the watch that I was going to be standing, and be able to recite the info back to him to his satisfaction.  

LT Rusty said...

Salty - don't you mean "load them out with an ASCM.  Any ASCM.  Doesn't have to be new.  Just give them something that can reach OTH without calling in TACAIR."

Anonymous said...

I wonder if this is one of those cases where the spec was followed and just plain wrong.  A lot of the earliest version of NVR was lifted from the old GENSPECS and given an ABS label.  It could be they used something that would have been right under different conditions, and was insisted upon by the technical authority approving the design.

kmadams85 said...

oops, that was me.

sid said...

<span>I believe that was because of an operational error while transferring the ship from its building hall to the floating platform used to launch LCS-2. </span>
<span></span>
<span>Just how "bent" would it be if it hit a reef at 40 knots?</span>

Grandpa Bluewater. said...

Note Bene for all rates that spread paint, and those officers who lead them.  Read and comply with the NSTM Painting Chapter, HazMat Data Sheets and the instructions that come with the tools and the pretreatment, primer, and paint.

Corrosion control on an ocean going ship is hard, hazardous, never ending work that devours man hours, and you cannot refine it.

Hybrid crewing is BS, too much work, too few people, burns out the best quickly all to often.

John ODonnell Jr. said...

Once for dust, twice for rust, right?

Anonymous said...

<span>Once for dust, twice for rust, right?</span>

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