Saturday, June 11, 2011

CATO goes Salamander

Former Special Forces Officer David Rittgers over at CATO reflects perfectly the issues we discussed the other week.
Pima County released a video of the raid and supporting documents. The video isn't anything new — a squad of police officers dressed up for combat. But the statement of the SWAT supervisor is worth reading. After the SWAT team entered Guerena's home, the supervisor left one or two "operators" with the body while the rest searched the house.

What did he mean by operator? Well, a police officer. But the term connotes something entirely different.

"Operator" is a term of art in the special operations community. Green Berets, SEALs and other special operations personnel often refer to themselves as operators. It's a recognition of both the elite standards of their units and the hybrid nature of their duties — part soldier, part spy, part diplomat. But importing operator terminology into domestic law enforcement is not a benign turn of the phrase.

Perceiving yourself as an operator plasters over the difference between a law enforcement officer serving a warrant and a commando in a war zone. The former Mirandizes, the latter vaporizes, as the saying goes — and as the recent Osama bin Laden raid vividly illustrated.

Targeted killing is legal in a war zone but not on the streets of Anytown, USA. The war on drugs has done incalculable damage to the character of law enforcement by encouraging police officers to forget they are civilians.

True, they are civilians charged with enforcing the law and are empowered to use force to do so — but they are civilians nonetheless. When police officers refer to their fellow citizens as civilians and mean to exclude themselves from that category, they've mentally leapt from enforcing the law to destroying the enemies of the state. That's incompatible with a free society.
American police playing Einsatzgruppen continues to be a moral blight on our republic.

They even go after student loan debt now.

70 comments:

Anonymous said...

CATO has been out in front on this issue for years, most especially by employing Radley Balko and publishing his paper "Overkill" in 2006.

Eric said...

Very good post and very good points. Turning police into military and the military into the peace corps ruins both of them and as in this case an innocent man is dead.
About the Dept of Education raid, it was about fraud not student loan. Also it was for the estranged wife not the husband who lived there. Lastly, if you read the warrent the judge signed,  there is NOTHING in it that would justify this. It's a standard daylight warrent to
look for documents, papers, computers. Totally unjustified. 

James said...

I had wondered when you would pick this up Sal. Hey Obama did say that america would need its new" armies.

So you get a bunch of Thugs call them Operators and Tada.

ASWOJoe said...

I recall reading about a sheriffs department that got an M113 APC through the Excess Defense Article program.  No real objection to that, I suppose warrant service CAN be dangerous, though I wonder how they manage to cover the operating costs.  What really raised an eye brow was the inclusion of mother deuce in the package.  Would love to know where in Mayberry you need to use a heavy machinegun to maintain the peace.

Roger Fortier said...

More government overreach in the age of Obama. I generally support the police, but this is what happens when liberals hacks like Sheriff Clarence Dupnik are in charge. Recall he rashly blamed the tea party for the shooting of Rep Giffords in Tucson. 

AW1 Tim said...

  One thing that I would propose is for Congress to prohibit any federal agency outisde of the FBI& CIA(and the military's invesitgative services) from having any sort of law enforcement group.  If any Federal Department needs warrants served, let them ask the local Sheriff to do so. Let them coordibate with local law enforcement to provide those services. Heck, have the US Marshall serve the papers.

  Having all these internal police forces just serves to further entrench power in the hands of unelected officials and that is anathema to a free society and the cause of liberty.

  What next? Library swat teams gunning down familes with overdue book fines? EPA swat treams using RPG's to target homes with wood stoves? National Park Serbice snipers killing visitors who litter?

avidus@yahoo.com said...

What I find interesting is the continuous law enforcement justification for such measures, especially when it comes to serving warrants.  If there had been a spike in warrant serving incidents causing injury or death to peace officers then I would understand the need for more drastic measures; however I've been unable to discover any such data.  Some sources suggest that drug related warrants require a "no-knock" approach as otherwise the suspects can dispose of the drugs.  I would suggest that the dire circumstances of a possible error far outweighs the loss of a small amount of product.

The truly discouraging part of such incidents is the almost given outcome of no peace officers or judge paying for the outcome of their actions.

The Federalist said...

Basically, here's the deal, as I see it: we could catch a lot more crooks and recover a lot more stolen merchandise if the police simply had the ability to go door to door and inspect houses on a regular basis. We don't allow that, because for a number of very legitimate reasons we have decided the opportunity costs are too high--other things necessary for a self-governing republic would become impossible. The Founding generation thought preventing searches at the whim of a single government magistrate was so important we almost didn't get a Constitution because of it (remember, the Bill of Rights was something of a quid pro quo for ratification).

I hope the principle is clear--the ability of the police to operate efficiently is not the highest goal of the way our Anglo-American legal system has been set up. There are other examples.

Now we come to these SWAT raids. 

The reason they occur is, to my understanding, because a.) evidence could be destroyed during a standoff, and b.) it prevents standoffs or the ability of the subject to shoot back (both being dangers). But at some point, if no-knock raids become more periolous to the citizenry than whatever crimes they would prevent, then the question becomes, based on the principle above that police efficiency is not the highest goal of the Republic, the question becomes should they not then be outlawed, and the police to content themselves with surrounding houses and resorting to sieges?

As we ponder the question, we must remember, in addressing the issue of peril to the citizenry, we must address two things--the first, that there will*always* be a certain number of false entries (unless the police claim omnipotence), and second, the peril need not ust be physical. What does it affect, vis a vis the individual citizen's relationship to the police, and to the government, when the police evolve to a paramilitary? Quite a bit, I should think. Thus, we have two questions of justice here, both equally important--the first being justice in the minute (for the person whose house was wrongly entered), the second justice in the mass (for a citizenry that has lost control of its police). Certainly, I myself find it impossible to believe that a police that increasingly views itself in a tactical manner will forver act humbly before the citizenry. And that is perhaps one of the great problems of our times--at what point does it just become "cops and little people". And how close are we to that point now?

Therefore, I think whatever we gain by no-knock raids is lost by the error rate and the idea that a standing army exists amongst the populace--that the citizens are now subjects, all citizens--and I thus think they need to be very strictly limited, if not prohibited outright, via Constitutional amendment.

The Federalist said...

As I ponder my spelling errros above, I also ponder this--at some point, the belief of cops may universally become that they are special knights and protectors--a class apart--who are the only thing holding back a citizenry-created anarchy. At that point the Republic starts to have one of its more severe crises yet.

For when one considers that when cops reflect on the fact that they are, in general, more "educated" (in the sense of having to have a college degree, even if usually of the criminal justice variety, where cops teach cops), more physically fit, and sometimes form a unique culture that emphasizes what can often be called a "locker room" mentality--then the idea of them one day beginning to think themselves above the citizenry (not just in the inner cities, but everywhere) is not outside the pale--because they honestly often *are* above average. The trouble is that they forget about half the citizenry is above average, too.

Basically, we need to start being concerned how much the mindset of the patrol house is reflecting society at large. For while cops are quite generally good people, nothing in the history of man says good organizations can't evolve to do bad things via rationalization. Especially when too many of today's younger set has grown up in the vicious age of irony, and the criminal justice degree programs may have evolved into cops teaching cops, and police unions have such a large voice at the local levels.

Lobotomized said...

One of the elements of this issue is similar in concept to what CDR Sal refers to as the diversity "industry".  In other words - there is a relatively strong industry that markets and sells equipment and training to police forces.  Go to policestore.com and what are the first images you see?  The number of customers that really NEED this stuff is small so the industry actively markets their stuff so that even the beat cop feels as though he must be carrying a full assault/riot kit with various breeching tools etc.  The officers at that point are like boys with toys and they WANT to play.  They use phrases like "officer safety" as justification and then play Red Cell.  

Another problem is that many of the folks are recruited into law enforcement from the rank and file military - IE non-operators.  The problem is that we hold the true spec ops folks up on high and many non-operators want that status.  Law enforcement is a place where those rank and file former military types can suddenly get elevated to "operator" status just by paying for some gear and going through a few classes in Blackwater NC or other training locations.

Salty Gator said...

How many lives would have been saved at WACO if one federal law enforcement officer and one local town sheriff knocked on the compound's front door instead of doing a "tactical, multi point dynamic entry?"  If the two get shot and killed, the standoff starts there.  Instead, they decide to use ATF SWAT and the result is 4 agents dead, untold inside dead, the sheriff left scratching his head because he had no idea a raid was even in progress, and eventually scores dead when the place burns to the ground because the FBI decided that they needed tanks and APC's with helicopter support.

sid said...

I will save your Bill of Rights!

Even if I have to shoot you in the head!!!!

UltimaRatioRegis said...

That raid was a statement by Janet Reno toward the supremacy of Federal law enforcement over the rights of citizens. 

James said...

??? L.A.?

Stingray said...

CDR S.

This is just one example of the blowback from
the several wars that many of your correspondents
love so much from their armchairs.

Stu said...

Are you saying you believe that Loughner, who is clearly just batshit, was motivated by the Tea Party?

Just want to clarify before I comment.  

Stu said...

But playing dress-up is so fun.

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

I couldn't agree more, but as I noted elsewhere, this problem as it relates to police is just a symptom of the wider problem. We've forgotten that this country was founded as a place where differing opinions could co-exist peacefully, and started becoming increasingly tribal in our outlooks, a process cyclically reinforced by media.

Bottom line, simplistic slogans of "supporting police" or "not" aren't helpful. The police lose all claim to the title "Good Guy" when they stoop to "Bad Guy" tactics, for precisely the reasons already noted here: the ongoing spread of "war" rhetoric and imagery is just plain contrary to notions of a civil society. In a society that prides itself on Rule of Law, the sentinels of that law must be the highest exemplars of it.

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

I'm not sure if I'm more amused or pleased that y'all seem to feel this way, but bottom line is I'm glad it's so. It's one of the small things that give me faith that maybe this American Experiment isn't on its last legs after all.

I've been quietly hoping that, just as with the WW2 and Vietnam generations, the ends of the wars overseas will bring back some folks who will go into law enforcement and bring some much-needed perspective back with them. To my eyes, the differences between cops of those generations, and cops of the later generations, couldn't be more stark: the older guys.....they tended to be wiry sorts of fellas, you wouldn't fear scrapping with one of them, until you looked them in the eye, and then you goddamn-well knew better.

These young guys all too often seem to be looking to escalate the situation needlessly, just to indulge their own aggressions, and then try to stand behind silly trumped-up notions of "taking unchallenged control of the situation". Those older guys didn't need to yell or make menacing moves to do that. They just did it, period, without even necessarily coming across as hostile.

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

I would replace the word "motivated" with "influenced". No, you can't control all the crazies of the world; I wouldn't "put the Tea Party on trial" for it, if such a thing were even possible.

But I do think it serves as a "canary in the coal mine" with regards to all sides taking their rhetoric down a couple notches, lest the next Loughner become a Gavrilo Princip.

Stu said...

Thing is, "crazies" find their motivation in all sorts of things in which they obsess about.  I think it far better to chalk Loughner up to simply being mentally disturbed lest we fall in to the binary blame game of escalation ourselves.  

Byron said...

Thank God the SWAT in Duval County, City of Jacksonville, is perfectly content to wait them out.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

"<span> In a society that prides itself on Rule of Law, the sentinels of that law must be the highest exemplars of it."</span>

Yell that louder, please.  There are those who will claim rightly that there have always been corrupt police, and there have.  But the trend in the last two decades is that overreaction and downright bullying on the part of law enforcement has become a matter of policy in many places, with justification that drugs and related gangs have made things intolerably dangerous for the police. 

Advice: go be an accountant. 

I lay this trend of official sanctioning of such thuggish behavior on the part of those sworn to serve and protect at the feet of George HW Bush and the provisions of RICO.  That was a shameful and dangerous shifting of mindset that discarded probable cause, due process, and a number of the safeguards of our liberties at the hands of overzealous and poorly-restrained police officers.

Salty Gator said...

Personally I loved my time at Blackwater, but it was for a US Navy shooting course.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

So should we arrest Jodie Foster for Hinkley shooting President Reagan?

Loughner was a self-declared communist.  And, surprise of surprises, mentally unbalanced people can hold seemingly conflicting and mutually exclusive views at any time, depending on what their pet Labrador says to them that morning.

Loughner shot Rep Giffords over a perceived slight when he asked a question at a public meeting in 2007.  Several years before there WAS a Tea Party.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Wait....  the Navy still shoots people?  THAT'S no Global Force for Good!

Stu said...

I agree with URR that Loughner's rhetoric and beliefs were all over the spectrum and interconnected in his mind very much in a "Beautiful Mind" manner.

i understand your overall point but at the end of the day I think a lunatic is just as bound to obsess over political issue just as much as he over the peculiarities of his mail delivery or some other innocuous thing.  Accordingly, I'm not sure why special attention would be warranted for the political spectrum.  

For the best description of these types I would highly recommend reading Chapter 2 of "Orthodoxy" by G.K. Chesterton.  It's aptly titled "The Maniac."

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

Seems I anticipated your argument, see above. WRT to the origins of the Tea Party....nah, it existed pre-2008, just not under that name. And anyone who denies that the name itself came directly out of the RP money bombs is deluded at best, and lying at worst.

If I was Ron Paul, I'd still be upset about having that torn away from me by guys like Dick Armey. Don't get me wrong: I disagree with Paul's "agenda" as much as, and maybe a bit more, than I disagree with Obama's, but I respect both, because I perceive them both principled and adult voices whose personal ideologies are at least mostly consistent.

Funny but true: I donated small amounts to both campaigns in '08. Took a long, hard look at throwing Mike Gravel some money, too, just to help keep his crotchedy voice in the game a bit longer: I think folks have come to regard the primaries as popularity contests on nebulous notions of "electability" to the detriment of their real value: unfettered, open public debate within the respective dominant ideologies.

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

<span>"Accordingly, I'm not sure why special attention would be warranted for the political spectrum."</span>

You feel that way because you have some grounding in the really-real world. Many don't, and that issue is getting worse and worse.

For the best examples I can think of top-of-mind, go to Free Republic or Democratic Underground. As more and more folks section off all discordant perspective, they become more and more prone to seeing the Loughners and Squeaky Frommes as heroes, rather than nutbags.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

You are stretching the facts to near breaking. 

Loughner shot Rep Giffords because he had obsessed about her since his perceived slight.  Blaming the Tea Party is posturing nonsense.  And claiming "rhetoric" is to blame is creating a strawman for further encroaching on the rigts of free speech.  Because if equally applied, Air America and MSNBC would have long ago been shut down.

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

<span>"You are stretching the facts to near breaking. "</span>

You always use statements like that. "Near breaking". "Weak". I'm not biting.<span></span>

<span>"And claiming "rhetoric" is to blame is creating a strawman for further encroaching on the rigts of free speech.  Because if equally applied, Air America and MSNBC would have long ago been shut down."</span>

While I found AA irritating and abrasive, and MSNBC in the Olbermann days to simply be cartoonish and over-the-top, I don't remember too many instances where they wrapped themselves up in the imagery of armed insurrection, or spoke of "Second Amendment Solutions" to civil/political disagreements.

Your --once again absolutist-- argument seems to preclude any sense of natural civil decorum, and seems to consider ridiculous, over-the-top commentary to be something that should be cherished and celebrated, rather than discouraged, frowned upon, and even shunned by reasonable men.

Put more briefly: I'm not a guy that helps pushing the ratings for MSNBC, AA, or FoxNews, and thus reward them for poisioning the public well and encouraging victimization mentalities amongst the weak-minded.

Are you?

Put yet another way: the only form of armed insurrection I encourage is for people to SHOOT THEIR TELEVISIONS.

AW1 Tim said...

  AA & MSNBC are to civil discourse what the NSDAP was to "fair and balanced". You seriously need a self-examination in light of your screeds against the TEA party. I have NEVER seen nor heard ANY of that at ANY TEA Party event I have attended.

  I have heard such nonsense said about the TEA party and it's supporters by folks like you who are terrified of citizens who are fed up with the over-reach of the federal (and State) governments and have decided to do some wuite legal about it.

  Ot osn't the TEA Party folks who have ramped up the violence and vitriolic language. No sir. It is exclusively at the feet of the left and the sycophant enablers of the current President and those who feel that government is always the proper response to any problem.

Non Sequitur said...

I thought the blowback was due to reversing the polarity of the neutron field....



That of course, doesn't make any sense. But neither did the thing I'm replying to.

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

Oh, and note that I deliberately avoided the use of the word "ban" with regards to ridiculous/over-the-top political speech. Such has existed since the founding of the Republic; by itself, it's no problem at all.

What is different today, and a real problem, is that things are hollowing out to the point that "brazenly partisan" is about all you get virtually anywhere any more. As much as some of you folks despise the "mainstream media" and it's liberal *leanings*, I think you're about to find why having moderating voices in the center-left to center-right was a very, VERY good thing. Here's hoping they get it together before the internet finishes them off.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Don't care if you bite or not.  You begin your argument with a false premise.  That Loughner was something other than he declared himself to be, and that he did not have the unhealthy obsession he admitted to having regarding Giffords.  You instead attribute "blame" to the Tea Party, and to "rhetoric" assigned to Sarah Palin, Fox News, and anything right of center by the far-left Sheriff in Pima County.

MSNBC after Olbermann?  Ed Schultz, Rachel Maddow, Chris "Tingly" Matthews, Dylan Rattigan, and David Gregory?  THAT MSNBC? 

A sociopath kills a bunch of people trying to get a US Congressman he has been obsessed with for four years, and you blame "decorum".  Nice try.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Oh please.  You talk about liberal media bias as if it doesn't exist.  Better than 90% of news executives and anchors consider themselves liberals.  Self-defined liberals.  Then they turn and tell us that their viewpoints don't affect their journalism. 

Yet these are the same people who tell us that the Tea Party is racist and hateful and advocating violence.  Without proof.  Ever.

You want to believe that stupidity, be my guest.

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

@URR:

Dude, you're unhinged. Talk about unhealthy obsessions.

Oh, and whatever on the MSNBC. Couldn't care less, as you can plainly tell by my ignorance of their lineup of idiot corporate-hack talking heads, I don't watch that goddamn channel on the idiot box, never have, never will, and only hit their website when I get some of their crap thrown in my face.

If I wanted corporate talking points vomited all over me, I'd find one of Dick Armey's TEA Party rallies.

That the mere assertion that maybe Loughner took some of his INSPIRATION from violent TP rhetoric sends you people into absolute convulsions I take as evidence that deep down, you know it's true. What was that you were saying about cognitive dissonance earlier?

Seriously: some of you folks come across as pretty smart, when politics isn't on the table. When it is, you turn into pit-bulls. Sad, really, because you don't seem to see that the same hand is pulling strings on both sides. (And protip: it ain't George Soros, or if it is, it ain't JUST him.)

I'm done here. I'd hoped to make some friends and learn some of the on-the-ground stuff I needed to learn to further a public service project I've been mulling for a long time, but I don't need this shit, flat out.

/salute

Smoke 'n' Oakum said...

@URR:

Dude, you're unhinged. Talk about unhealthy obsessions.

Oh, and whatever on the MSNBC. Couldn't care less, as you can plainly tell by my ignorance of their lineup of idiot corporate-hack talking heads, I don't watch that goddamn channel on the idiot box, never have, never will, and only hit their website when I get some of their crap thrown in my face.

If I wanted corporate talking points vomited all over me, I'd find one of Dick Armey's TEA Party rallies.

That the mere assertion that maybe Loughner took some of his INSPIRATION from violent TP rhetoric sends you people into absolute convulsions I take as evidence that deep down, you know it's true. What was that you were saying about cognitive dissonance earlier?

Seriously: some of you folks come across as pretty smart, when politics isn't on the table. When it is, you turn into pit-bulls. Sad, really, because you don't seem to see that the same hand is pulling strings on both sides. (And protip: it ain't George Soros, or if it is, it ain't JUST him.)

I'm done here. I'd hoped to make some friends and learn some of the on-the-ground stuff I needed to learn to further a public service project I've been mulling for a long time, but I don't need this shit, flat out.

/salute

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Yes, I am unhinged. 

Go and do something that doesn't require sharp objects.

Many here have spent their lives defending the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  Yet you insinuate that if we happen to agree with something the Tea Party advocates, we are a problem.

Go stand for something.  With a skin in the game.  Or not.  But run along now.

Stu said...

Folks like that have always been around.  Look at the French Revolution.

pk said...

yes, watching an elderly irish cop applying citizenship 101 lessons with a classic nightstick used to be quite enjoyable.

C

Grandpa Bluewater. said...

URR: The Navy indeed does. We don't talk about it much in front of the marines, because the cost of repairing all the lower jaws that break after falling to the deck comes from Navy (medical corps) optar.

pk said...

not to mention the dents in the deck.

C

Lobotomized said...

Not trying to bag on Blackwater.  Its a great place to train but a facility of that size and scope can't stay open by simply contracting out courses to US .mil and .gov and the few metropolitan areas that probably NEED a SWAT team.  They also probably can't make enough money teaching civilians defensive pistol and carbine courses either. 

Grandpa Bluewater. said...

Smoke (you charming and erudite blockhead, I say this only in the most affectionate way)  Pima county's  Sheriff is uberlib. Hates tea party anything. They were his boys, and he's covering for them. " Look up cheka."

pk said...

as i understand it ruby ridge occoured because BATF swore out a warrent for an illegal firearm (many say a bogus situation) and the local sherriff refused to serve it because he was afraid of getting shot on the doorstep with things getting out of hand from there. 

C

Justthisguy said...

Owhell, it was worse than that. The ATF guys went shooting with Koresh shortly before, and he provided the ammo.  He also went into town every day, and could have been easily and non-violently accosted.  The destruction of evidence (the front doors) by the Feds just stinks to high heaven.

Justthisguy said...

Owhell, it was worse than that. The ATF guys went shooting with Koresh shortly before, and he provided the ammo.  He also went into town every day, and could have been easily and non-violently accosted.  The destruction of evidence (the front doors) by the Feds just stinks to high heaven.

pk said...

washington and vermont in LA on saturday night.

C

Justthisguy said...

Owhell, it was worse than that. The ATF guys went shooting with Koresh shortly before, and he provided the ammo.  He also went into town every day, and could have been easily and non-violently accosted.  The destruction of evidence (the front doors) by the Feds just stinks to high heaven.

Lobotomized said...

I was almost appalled but sadly not surprised that my town of 20,000 in a county of only 60,000 has its own SWAT team in addition to the Sherrifs SWAT team.  Not only that, but the CITY owns and operates an Armored Personnel Carrier!

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/ajmstudios/4630826151/

You should see the APC for Jefferson County CO!  They seriously look like they are ready for the zombie invasion of the century.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ral11us/3905345146/

pk said...

smoke:

what you see from urr is a very mellow individual. i believe that he reloads ammunition and forces himself to not JAMB THE BULLET ALL THE WAY DOWN THE CASE AND INTO THE PRIMER before he replies to you.

just a little excercise in self control.

C

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Vermont is a little more Ernest T. Bass than Crips and Bloods, though we do have the latter.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Making Marines go to a Navy dentist is prohibited, I believe, by the 8th Amendment.

Grandpa Bluewater. said...

Most of them are good to very good. You might bring out their bad side from now on...

DeltaBravo said...

Smoke, communicating with URR is fun.  You should try it  more often!  :-D   He's our kind of mellow.  ;)

Retired Now said...

Ever heard of the branches of the Navy ?

Nurse CORPS
Supply CORPS
Civil ENgineering CORPS
Medical. CORPS
Marine CORPS
Dental CORPS
etc.

Byron said...

Dipstick...you assume that none of these members of the US Military have never heard a shot fired in anger, nor understand the price paid in blood defending your 1st ammendment right to be a jackass.

You assume wrong.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

RN,

That's pretty funny, actually.  I suppose we gotta to go Navy dentists.  The alternative of Marine dentists is too horrible to contemplate. 

"Pain is just weakness leaving your jawbone."

Salty Gator said...

I didn't even know there was a city called Oak Harbor...can't imagine that they would need an APC.

SouthernAP said...

Interesting debate raging here about SWAT and its tatics. I would suggest before and one goes and further on drinking the Haterade® that they do the research on the history of SWAT teams. Remember that they came in to being in that high time of summer of love while domestic terrorists were running wild with things like bank robberies and hostage/ransom elements all to help funnel their revolutionary goals of rebuilding this nation into a communist/socialist/anarchist eden. Most of the men hired for the SWAT teams were ex-combat vets. Specifically Marines and Army. The were given surplus body armor, M-14s, and using smoke or mil grade CS weapons as well. From there as the threats evolved the SWAT teams tactics evolved. I would also note that the most heavily armed and most like a private army are those teams in cities with the most restrictions on other Constitutional Amendments.

SouthernAP said...

Additionally I would note that SWAT teams have only evolved even more SpecWar capabilities since the international terrorist attacks on the USA in 2001. The belief and some of it has been justified in what has been recovered, that the terror groups in this nation aren't fighting fairly and using military grade weapons themselves. If not that then they are resorting to insurgent tactics like IEDs or sharpened stick swing traps to protect specific sites (such as grow locations).

Finally I would note heavily that in a number of places within the United States Of America that just like the military is hated the police is hated. Most of that hate against the police, even for the standard beat cop, comes from the diversity industry. For those of you that don't believe, prove me wrong. That isn't to say there are corrupt or bad cops on any of the police agencies around us. Rather the stats seem to say that the percentage against the force on a whole isnt a large number. When compared to what both the diversity industry and their parrots in the media want to paint to the public on large.

SouthernAP said...

Interesting debate going on here about SWAT and its tatics. I would suggest before anyone else drinks the Haterade around here. Has anyone taken a look at where the birth of SWAT came from? It came from the the summer of love and the fact that in a few major citites the beat cop's inability to deal with the large number of domestic terrorists that were terrorizing LA area in that time frame. Doing everything from bank robberies or hostage/ransom crimes all to help funnel money to thier revoluntinary ideals of remaking this nation into a communist/socialist/anarchist ideals (which ever the prefeared politics). As the tactics of these groups spread around the nation then police had to adjust to some of the other terror groups around here. Such as the Symbionese Liberation Army, Weatherman Underground,United Farm Workers, Black Panthers, etc.

As the first cities formd thier own SWATs, they used ex-military men such as infantry Marines or Army folks. Outfitted them with M-14's or M-1 Carbines, military grade chemical weapons like smoke grades or CS gas. As the threats evolved the weapos and tactics  of the SWAT forces evolved. I would also note that the places where the SWAT teams are walking around more like combat troops or heay infantry units are the same places where other US Constitutional Amendments are restricted or teated with disdan.

Salty Gator said...

military grade chemical weapons?  Geneva Convention specifically outlawed chemical weapons.  You're not even allowed to use CS / OC spray in combat, only in AT/FP.  As for dealing with these clowns who the cops weren't equipped for, isn't that what we have A) THE FBI and B) THE NATIONAL GUARD for?

DeltaBravo said...

I also want to reiterate for those who may have said so elsewhere... the gummint seems happy to load up SWAT teams with weapons to go play shootie shootie.  Against our citizens.  Had a family friend shot unarmed that way. 

But same gummint doesn't want to put that firepower on our borders and play shootie shootie at the people trying to bring those evil guns and drugs over the border from other places.

Things that make you go "hmmmmm....."

SouthernAP said...

Something else I would note as well is that the folks who drink the Haterade the most often with regards to the police forces and thier roles are the same ones that hate the US military. I would also note the loudest voices about hating the police are the same diversity industry voices who rally and stir up hate in the cities.  I dare anyone else to prove diffrently to me. The hard part is how does the regular civilian seperate what the Diversity Industry and thier lapdogs in the Media are telling the general public about the local police vs what the reality is? Is it the truth that places like LAPD, NYPD, Miami PD, Chicago PD are full of KKK members that are actively seeking out colored folks to give them a beat down or kill the to purify the world? I don't think so, rather there is an level of corruption in police forces. That is a fact, just like in any bureaucracy there is corruption and abuses. That to be said can the police be wrong at times whe they apply force? Is water wet?
We need to hold abuses like this one and others sited accountable to police forces and the government. Yet, we also can't hold tie the arms of police behind their back and then expect them to prevent the cities from diving into anarchy.

ewok40k said...

SAP, there is definitely a need for a police force capable of handling things like North Hollywood shotout - but on the other hand who will watch the watchmen? Police forces sadly dont seem to have the morale/recruitment standards of the armed forces. As with most problems, I'd rather see it as human factor being decisive more than equipement related. Poorly trained, jittery cop with shotgun and .38 is more danger than one well trained and disciplinded with military grade weapons.

Therapist1 said...

Having worked with TAC/SWAT teams and attended the Hostage Barricade Conference in Baltimore a few times, their perspective is different.  They serve what are supposed to be "high risk" warrants but they have been used too much in the service of regular warrants to justify their existence and because they have the most trigger time and thus are thought to have the best trigger discipline.  Sometimes this is true and sometimes it is not. Having been involved in a cases that did not go well, one that ended up in the shooting of a 21yo and the other where the individual shot themselves; there is never a right answer.  For example, why did you go into the home, why did you not enter the home in the two examples.  It seems that in example CDR provided, they forgot they need to protect as well.  The two officers could have secured the room and provided assistance. 

SouthernAP said...

SG,

The National Guard can be used by the state governors for law enforcement but it can get goofy if the right lawyer attacks either the governor or even the exectuive department of the nation by using the Posse Comitatus Act as thier legal defense. Just look at the hate and discontent that the state governors get when they talk about putting the NG on the borders along the south in full military garb to just secure the border from narco-terror groups.  As to the Geneva Conventions, your probably actually thinking of the Geneva Protocals that deal with chemical weapons and certain other what woudl now be WMDs. The Conventions deal with PW's and protection of the non-combatants. That being said CS gas is in the hands of police forces around the nation. For example the LAPD used it to help put down the Rodney King riots in 1992 and the Seattle PD used it during the WTO riots in 2000. CS gas has been given iffy legal status in policing efforts since the mid-1970's. For as many legal precedents authorizing it there have been just as many disallowing it. Though CS gas is outlaws in military usage by the Chemcial Weapons Conevention, it is authorized for home use. The Genvea protocals of 1925 don't prevent it for internal dissent control either, but did attempt to outlaw it in combat situtations.

SouthernAP said...

E40K,

I don't discount that we need to watch the watchmen. I just wonder if some of the morale/recuritment issues don't come from the fact that the 4th estate constantly rips into the police about abuses. Just looking at the big city near me, Seattle; they are now being investigated by the FBI cause of a series of civil rights violations. The Media and the Diversity industry are cheering these events; meanwhile about three years ago elements of the SPD and the Lakewood PD were assinated by unhinged folks who either were full of hate for the police or didn't want to go back to prision. After five of these assinations going on over a two week period in 2009, the media acted shocked that these events were occuring. Yet, on the next hand they talk about some other police and civilian incident with in the same news cast.
So the question I would ask you is this, how can you not get demoralized or have recuritmeent issues when your pubically hated by the folks your suppposed to protect? Even it that is a false truth, the appearance of that hate is overwhelming in the media.