More LCS fun. Just that kind of week I guess.
Lee sent this video along this week for a different reason, but I made me think of the Little Crappy Ship after reading another Potemkin article about LCS's Mission Modules and unmanned-offboard systems. You know the ones I am talking about, like this. Along with even goofier friends here. Deploy and operate this for sustained operations? Really?
Notice they all seem to be tested in bathtub water? That isn't the sea we know, is it? This is.
Test your little toys in those seas for 4 straight days of continual operations as a start, then we'll talk about tactical utility.
43 minutes ago
121 comments:
What should the launch and recovery capabilities be for a ship deploying MH-60R/S? And should we test in limiting sea states before testing in calmer waters?
What a wonderful little ASW boat for LCS. Will it hold the entire crew when the mother ship starts sinking from the holes and cracks in her hull? At least till help gets there?
Way to stick the landing!
LCS-1 goes to PSA/drydock next week... hopefully no more skeletons to be found in any closets.
The Big Badger Boat once spent 64 days underway in early 1945. Has either LCS even gotten a total of 64 days underway?
Good grief! No RAST, no Beartrap...Vikings FTW!
Those little STANFLEX boats are a lot closer to what LCS is supposed to be than it actually is, and they're cheaper. The smaller SF 300s may be fiberglass but that can't be much worse than corroded aluminum. Also they're ice strengthened.
Where is the nearest dry dock to here...?
And, for all this horse poo about flying tiger teams to and fro...
Even in the best of times, it an't exactly a walk in the park for that part of the world....
Thats what I was thinkin'...No RAST?
One thing is certain...
Limiting seas states will be significantly LESS than seen in the video for both LCS types.
But those battleships were so.. so.. ARMORED and violent-looking!
Anyone notice that this vessel is a little boat with a fairly big gun, while the LCS is a fairly big boat with a little pee wee gun?
i believe that the record was about 130 days at sea set by Enterprise during Nam.
C
Kind of reminds me of the radio controled DASH I witnessed when I was a midshipman. Could only land in a realtive flat sea state and everyone fairly consistently lost radio control. I witnessed one flight where our squadron ship on the horizon had to light off their DASH control quickly, capture/gain control of our DASH and send it back home as we were watching it fly to parts unknown. Thank goodness by the time I was comissioned, the DASH was no longer in service.
p.s. The Air Force/Army later used them for targets. Probably their best use IMHO.
102 days underway continuous in the Med/Red Sea/IO/Persian Gulf/and back....
On a 1200 psi boat.
During the Monsoon.
We didn't dare go cold iron in Naples!
Hmmm,
Perhaps thats why all the LCS bubbahs sport big wrist watches...?
In fairness the 57mm gun on the LCS is probably better all round than the 76mm weapon. It has a longer range, fires twice as fast and carries more ammo. Neither are adequate for NGfS, but the 57 mm can put four rounds a second on a target which can ruin the day of anyone not in a pillbox. I think the USN (and the Brits, and the French) determined that minimum effective caliber for fire support was around 4"/100mm. This is of no concern to the LCS as there is nothing whatsoever in its requirements or designation that would indicate it is ever supposed to be used in the littorals....wait...what?
<span>"But those battleships were so.. so.. ARMORED and violent-looking!"</span>
<span></span>
<span>LOL. Does that make you the human equivalent of a battleship? </span>
But seriously... the USN is a global force for good now, not a global force for foward sea power. Battleships need not apply?
does anyone know just what the date is on the (i think it is the DD215) form that was signed off for exceptance of the vessel.
also when was the "corrosion" first noticed?
i believe that the one year warranty clause might apply in this case. (its buried in the DAR and FAR at the start of the spec.)
C
Which begs the question why carry a gun with less capability than a 5"?
Hemstitch at 4 rounds a minute or shred in a spit second with one VT frag on target. Crack open the top with common and then set ablaze with WP (two rounds on target. Kill fortified positions ashore.
Kill the enemy. Don't annoy them.
Well, let's just say that the 57mm has a max effective range of 8km. Not quite the range of the OTO 76mm, which is 18.37 km, and has a far heavier projectile. Both of those aspects are extremely imporant. The 57mm is a small boat defense, but next to worthless against a vessel of comparable size.
Oops.. i looked at NAVWEAPS which gives effective range for the 3" but only max range for the 57mm. That does make more sense, thanks for the correction.
Assuming the small boat is dumb enough to attack alone and in the sector bounded by the safety cutout to safety cutout arc of the gun. Which is why two 5" and 4 30mm are about right. All dual purpose.
Apparently all those USNA Naval Architect and Mechanical Engineer majors use theirs as much as the English
majors when assigned to a PM office, or say -um- Dahlgren.
I am still waiting to hear is LCS2 can function in this sea state at all. (of course it is hard to find heavy sea states tied to a dock) I have 2 concerns: 1 That the abrupt transition to the sponsons would be adversely impacted by green water and 2 That the full after structure would overbalance the stilleto bow causing it to bury in the seas making it necessany to heave to. A fig7 has to escort in any sea state its charge can handle. It's "replacement" needs to have the same capability.
Aww, Grandpa, you're gonna make me cry...poking fun at English majors. :'( We DO use our majors! Everyone sends their stuff by us to proofread so they can sound educated.
<span>Which begs the question why carry a gun with less capability than a 5"? </span>
Because a vessel that can cary a 76mm OTO Melera can probably carry a marinized 105mm gun. We're talking some tiny little boats, like 35m and up. (See here: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=4524.2 ) Of course for something the size ofthe LCS really ought to be mounting a 5" or even an 8" weapon.
But Larry, the LCS isn't an escort! No.... escort is a job for.... uh, no one?
Agreed. If no RAST, then why no sailors running out there with tie-down chains as soons as those rotor blades started to spool down? It'd be a heck of a thing to finally get that bird on the deck, and then slide sideways into the sea when the vessel rolls.
V/R
Oh... and we also use it to write poetry for the porch. See... we're good for 2 things!
:-D
given the humongous sized flt deck of LCS-2 class, gee, my grandkids could land on that easily.
Tiny LCS-1 flt deck ? not so easy. It's 62 feet less in width than LCS-2 class. Not to mention half the length.
(also, the LCS-2 flt deck is higher off the water, than the little LCS-1 flt deck ). Let the helo pilot vote on this.
<span>given the humongous sized flt deck of LCS-2 class, gee, my grandkids could land on that easily.</span>
<span></span>
<span>Tell 'em not to try in a loaded H-53...</span>
<span></span>
<span>It'll fall through the deck.</span>
Those stan flex patrollers are definitely better than LCS for "naval small wars" - antipiracy, chcecking suspicious tramps under NK banner, and counterdrugs. And I bet the plastic hulled ones make nice mine vombat vessels...
Actually, the Japanese got good service out of their DASH units. It was all a matter of adequate training. Unmanned aircraft of any serious complexity are <span>not </span>toys for the untrained.
DD254 is the form. It is not so much the date as whether to little box in the lower left hand corner is checked - that notes whether the government's acceptance of delivery is CONDITIONAL or not. The defieciencies are the conditions and the length of time while usally a year can be lengthned by (you guessed it) NAVSEA
I think you would be pushing the LCS ship atructure to mount anything larger than a Mk 75 mount. The reall point is that the Mk 110 is the ONLY significant gun on LCS which is flat out wrong IMHO~
I think you would be pushing the LCS ship atructure to mount anything larger than a Mk 75 mount. The reall point is that the Mk 110 is the ONLY significant gun on LCS which is flat out wrong IMHO~
You will find that the LCS-2 design is significantly better in heavy sea than say a Perry. The real question is how long can the hull and crew stand it?~
not necessarily the case, while LCS-2 deck is not "rated" for H-53, it could be just a problem with NAVAIR nitpicking regs? MH-53 L&R should have been in the basic rqmts, I suspect another screwup?
I wish. At this point I am the human equivalent of a poorly-maintained tramp steamer.
It's been too long since I read NAVAIR Bulletin but that is where details are.
Normal procedure is to confirm flight deck envelop in calmer conditions and then work UP to higher seas/winds. Safety first.
whats the name and particulars of the ship in the video?
seems to be a very good fit for LCS work.
C
by the way, hows the coast guard cutter doing?
you know the one that was not sufficient for navy use for a variety of non specified reasons.
anybody stepping through the bilges yet........
C
Awww... but it looks like you got all spit-shined for the porch today! :)
Awwww...
Not bad for an old fart, actually. Beats being dragged onto a beach in India and being pulled apart!
What the F are you talking about?! What analysis are you quoting? COTF analysis? I think not. The Navy has decided that only bad news will come from that!
Navy needs a clueboat upside the head!
saw a lot of them things on trucks dripping saltwater out of the gas turbine exhaust.
C
A friend spent 2 weeks on a new NSC Cutter in the Arctic somewhere. He's a MCBM born into the Guard, 15 years of seatime. He likes the boat, says only deficiency is a little teeny tiny popgun on the bow, but appears to be capable of swapping for a 5"38 fairly easily. Good seakeeping in 18-20' seas, even doing helo ops in fairly bumpy stuff. No idea what towing capabilities are, no idea what she'll be like in 50 years....give me the Taney.
Kind of looks like a cross between Deadliest Catch and Airwolf. That's some good flying. Fox Corpen, baby!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knud_Rasmussen_class_patrol_vessel
I bet it can take 5 in front gun if needed... and some harpoons in the stanflex containers
thank you
That was a vasrsity play. As we all know Helo guys work hard for their flight pay!
Speaking of "Testing your LCS concepts here"...
Can't wait to see the CDR Salamander take on the Fire Scout going down in Libya.
Thank you Leesa
Salty, This was meant as a question, I am looking for hard info on LCS 2 performance in a heavy cross sea. Leesa thank you for the info, I know that there is at least one large tri in operation, but it has a much smoother transition into the sponsons
The OTO is practically worthless too, unless you are lucky enough to hit a low, slow, flier with it. Can't do NGFS, unless you have a LOS to the target (and then it's a direct fire weapon...I guess ok if taking on vehicles on the beach, and sucks for any kind of ASuW action. We tried using it to sink a DIW Iraqi minelayer, put in a slew of rounds, and the only net effect was smoking. The only thing positive I can cite is rate of fire.
Nor Lisbon! Let me tell you a story about the EDG cooling sea chest clogging with condoms in the Rio Tejo...
They can't tell me that crappy little Jon-Boat carries a sonar worth sh**ing on. Nor a torpedo worth firing. It's too small. So what's it do for ASW?
From the looks of the cockpit view, no SGSI or HRS either. Just Paddles doing a damn good job.
Was wondering about the chains too. Weird.
@AW1 - didn't we use chains in addition to RAST? It's been a while.
Then again, also remember at least one of the RASTs being broke most of the time...silly because we rarely used it for operational reasons even with two birds embarked and operating in the SoJ. Training/quals yes. Actual need due to sea state...few.
<span>You will find that the LCS-2 design is significantly better in heavy sea than say a Perry.</span>
Since when has the LCS-2 been in sea states above 2-3?
<span>while LCS-2 deck is not "rated" for H-53, it could be just a problem with NAVAIR nitpicking regs?</span>
I suspect you will find that its a structural issue...
Could just be for the initial hull though.
Don't you know ? The LCS always has a fueled, manned, armed help at the ready.
Of course, who would want to launch it unless seas and wind were relatively low.
I'll bet the crew of 40 plus 35 riders could man helo's 24/7 for a couple of weeks. See, easy answer (to a hard question that a loyal PMS-500 employee would never ask.).
Easy answers. This will bite USN some day.
Anyone have acouple hundred mil?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Juel_class_corvette
You know, I spent the day with my son on the USS Alabama... I was struck by the engineering marvel from the gun Turret Periscopes to the Bakery Ovens.. and I recall feeling Sad when I toured the HMS Victory (Nelsons Flag Ship at Trafalgar) and thought how far we have fallen as a Navy and worse.. we see England's Folly and we do nothing except pretend the pretty toys will hold up... wonder where the LCS will end up in 60 years?... not tied to a pier as a museum for sure...
I am not impressed.... I was an old LAMPS MK1 guy.. we did this in our sleep in pitching decks off the back of Knox Classes... lots of times in fact... now you want a real discussion, lets talk about which ships had the best lunches hoisted up in the helmet bag....
<span>You know, I spent the day with my son on the USS Alabama... I was struck by the engineering marvel from the gun Turret Periscopes to the Bakery Ovens.. and I recall feeling Sad when I toured the HMS Victory (Nelsons Flag Ship at Trafalgar) and thought how far we have fallen as a Navy and worse.. we see England's Folly and we do nothing except pretend the pretty toys will hold up... wonder where the LCS will end up in 60 years?... not tied to a pier as a museum for sure...</span>
LAMPS MK1 Didnt need no Stinkin Rast....
Yes they do. They do indeed.
I volunteer to ask the idiot question of the day (I can do that every day!)
What is the outside limit to SLEP a ship... keeping a usable and tried and true mainframe... how long can you really keep a ship going... and wouldn't that be cheaper in the long run than reinventing the wheel to substandard conditions?
I mean.. why do we need an LCS? The Iowa class battleships got everyone's attention on the littorals with no problems at all and it could handle the heavy seas and all sorts of other problems.
(end of stupid questions.)
Bet Mr. T knows...but can't say... ;)
What is the loss rate of UAVs vs manned aircraft?
Opined this years ago...
Are there enough spares bought -and planned for aboard- to handle the <span>gonna happen</span> attrition?
I think we all know what that answer is....
I got that second hand, will go back to the source and try to post a link
I am repeating what XO of LCS-2 said to me
Two words: chip light... (and always when flying near a resort somewhere) ;)
<span>I got that second hand, will go back to the source and try to post a link</span>
The very fisrt next question is then...At what speed?
And if she can't make that speed in very rough conditions...
Then what?
<span>I am repeating what XO of LCS-2 said to me</span>
I'll believe it when an operational H-53 is brought aboard in some far away place on a real mission.
Until then...
Sounds like more of the usual .ppt fantasy that defines this program.
Look to the end of the video, immediately after the touchdown the Lynx harpoons its hook into the grid, tightens down and is thus secured. That boat has no RAST because it has no hangar, it's flightdeck only.
Seeing how she came from Austal around Florida then tied up to the dock at Mayport....
Byron...I have made the same trek more than once.
That part of the world is not known for sea states as seen in that video
First that is a really good stick, putting that bird down in that sea state. Second, we need a Frigate not something that Coast Guard won't even buy. We need a Frigate and it needs to have RAST. The Lynx is a smaller and lighter bird and easier to move around on the deck (though I am not sure that ship has a hanger). Remember that the "T" in RAST stands for traverse. That is because an SH 60 is too heavy to move by hand. It needs to have mechanical assistance to move into the hanger. The US Navy screwed the pooch all the way around. They retired the Spruance's too early and now they are going to retire the Perry's without an affordable and capable follow on. I could go on. Let's just say that I am glad that I am no longer on active duty.
Oh...And don't forget...She made it allll the way to Norfolk!
Went back into Scoopdeck to find the video made of her rolling heavily as she stood into Key West...
The vid spoke to how the motion was tough on the crew.
Interestingly enough...Its gone now.
How come you took down the video Navy Times?
More of theat Stalin-esque way of erasing what had been that we've seen about when it comes to disparaging revelations about the USN perhaps?
Just this little blurb from a Cavas piece survives...
It was hard for visitors to tell if the ride control system was fully operational, but — at lower speeds, at least — Independence had a pretty quick roll, even in calm seas, rolling about 5 degrees to each side in about four seconds, pitching as well.
<span>That boat has no RAST because it has no hangar, it's flightdeck only.</span>
As I remember, the original Canadian systems -which the USN later adapted- didn't include the deck traverse...
But I would have to dig back into the very old NavAir news issues to see where I may have come up with that.
Canadian version of Rast is called ASSIST. I think it was on the first couple of National securitycutters, but I believe the Coast Guard has since abandoned ASSIST. Without any replacement as I recall ?
What I am recalling is from the mid '60s...
This was back when the USN was considering adapting the system.
But, at any rate, sounds like you are up on whats out there now...
So how come they were not winching themselves down to the deck?
Too much ship motion?
One of the criticisms that can be leveled at LCS is that you're -already- paying for a frigate (albeit at the lower end of a typical Euro frigate range of 3000-6000 tons) but with the armament of a small coastal patrol boat; there are few better examples of getting less bang for your buck!
As an example most of the MEKO class like the Aussie ANZAC are shorter (approx 120m) and only a few hundred tonnes heavier than either LCS model and yet can come fitted with, not only the same CIWS and light cannon as LCS, but also optionally: 5 inch guns rather than 57mm; with triple torpedo tube sets and various VLS fits thrown in as well.
More here...
The answer: It rolls. A lot. Independence had clear skies, calm seas and only moderate winds for its transit from Key West to Naval Station Mayport, but the ship rolls and pitches like a drunken whale. Early after it sailed from Mobile, Ala., the ship hit heavy weather and eight-foot seas, and wallowed so much that life was miserable for many crew members and riders. “I’ve never seen so many people get seasick,” one sailor confided; the Night of the Living Vomit is already a crew institution.
Good eye
Even if it's higher (I'm not sure we know, for one thing, the analysis would have to correct for total flight hours in various threat envelopes) - this is about cost. What's a Fire Scout, just short of $17M, in low rate production? Ok, at that production rate, not much cheaper than a Apache, but those cost should drop if production increases. More importantly - how many souls on the Fire Scout? What's the cost for personnel recovery, medical, rehabilitation, etc? What about the personal cost when a crew member dies in the mishap? What about the political cost in support for the operation? I would say that even if Fire Scout has a loss rate 2x that of a manned system, its still a deal.
Even if it's higher (I'm not sure we know, for one thing, the analysis would have to correct for total flight hours in various threat envelopes) - this is about cost. What's a Fire Scout, just short of $17M, in low rate production? Ok, at that production rate, not much cheaper than a Apache, but those cost should drop if production increases. More importantly - how many souls on the Fire Scout? What's the cost for personnel recovery, medical, rehabilitation, etc? What about the personal cost when a crew member dies in the mishap? What about the political cost in support for the operation? I would say that even if Fire Scout has a loss rate 2x that of a manned system, its still a deal.
<span> I would say that even if Fire Scout has a loss rate 2x that of a manned system, its still a deal.</span>
There is no doubt the operational loss rate is higher...
Point is...
Are enough units being bought with that higher attrition rate considered?
and
Are there enough units planned aboard to make up for those inevitable losses?
My bet is -"No"- on boht counts
couple of factors in this one... thats all I have to say bout that... (in my best Forest Gump voice.)
UAV's or RPV as we are now calling them... (remote piloted vehicles), are not as inexpensive as the name implies... when you start adding R&D, Ground Control Stations, Software, Hardware, Satellite connectivity, Bandwidth, Ground Data Terminals, Ground Support, Labor costs (contractors are not cheap), Training Costs, Fuel, and spares, you end up with quite the cost.... true no body to recover, but the loss of a single asset could spell the end of a contract, if the prime doesnt have adequate spares or second acft... lots of factors in the SOW for these assets.
not as cheap as they once were... but cheap once as they ever were....
little known fact but true, the italians and the greeks used to come aboard our ships in seas like this. Imagine the problem of a Skid equiped Helo... we had a solution, we used cargo nets from UNREPS and tied them to the pad eyes... when they landed the air det chock and chain runners would throw the nets over the skids fore and aft and quickly tie the Helo down with chains.. talk about balls... if the Helo started to lift she was gonna lose some blades for sure...
8 foot seas? How did they survive??? /sarc
I hate the name. I was priveleged to tour the REAL Independence. An thing of glory she was. How dare they take her name and give it to this bathtub toy!
By the way... I remember hearing from someone who served on Indy in the late 80s after her SLEP. They went around the continent the long way to report in San Diego. On the way, she encountered seas where the waves were crashing on the flight deck.
Wonder how inky-dinky Indy would have fared.
Are you sh*tting me? We have gone back to calling them RPVs? That is what we called them in the early 90s, but changed that to UAVs because, well, RPV was not descriptive enough. And now we are back to RPVs?
Reminds me of the heady days when we went from rotary-wing CAS to CIFS, back to RWCAS, and anyone who used the superceded term was somehow tactically inept because some idiot in the pentagon changed the terminology to get an MSM.
Thank you for the info Sid, you always come through. I understand that LCS 1 has quite an active ride at slow speeds also. I am sure that a Perry pitches and rolls too, but they have served in places like the North Atlantic for decades
Their fate will be the same as the Eagle Boats.
I go there all the time. She's a beauty. Next time you are there, get up on the sub and look on the OTHER side. :( They only paint the side the public sees. All the new advances and we can not build battleships like that any more. As you know, I am a HUGE fan of BBs.
"<span>Wonder how inky-dinky Indy would have fared."</span>
<glurg>
But since LCS is networked, everyone will hear the screams of the crew.</glurg>
B,
yea I saw that... the Sub was pretty cool though... USS Drum. She had quite a post service career as a Midshipmen Training Sub. When I got home my wife instantly recognized the smell of "boat" and made my son and I promplty change out of our clothes and into the showers... canned condensed air from 60 years still smells the same on our modern warships.. brought back great memories of being a Division Officer at Sea...
When you need a FITREP bullet, change the name or the uniform.
When they were testing the WestPac Express, she came into Guam. I asked the Marines how the ride was. They said at >8' it was a washing machine. My forecasting for them had me looking for <8' seas to support their speed and ride. I suspect the LCS is about the same.
You can actually get inside the skin of the Big Badger BB in Norfolk now! Not all over. Evidently the EPA has panties abunched because there is a bit of oil on the deck in the engine room. They are waiting safety certs from the EPA/APEs
Back in the day, I learned to never run the rack on a 6 71 jimmy when I was seasick. I imagine that is true for alot of tasks.
what you saw was machinery and engine rooms that had been modernized in the reactivations. those ships used to have tiny steam turbines hither thither and yon that dribbled and piddled condensate and lube oil by the truck load into the bilges.
in reactivation we replaced hundreds of them with electric motors and put mechanical seals in the pumps because of that.
what you are seeing is only about a half percent of what they were like in the glory days.
C
Go to Wilmington, NC to see the USS North Carolina (BB 55). They have all sorts of tours and programs, even special engineering and weapons tours. Very nicely done. They are currently doing some hull repairs in place with cofferdams.
That's funny and horrifying at the same time!
Absolutely. I think the F100 class could fill the void for the USN. BIW and Spain already have a relationship from work on the FFG 7. It won't be a BMD ship but it would be a ship that could go in harms way. As an alternative we could jump in on the F 125 class.
nice anecdotes Sid from Cavas that old salt huh?!~
mixing hull types and the key question is where eighter ship has an active ride control system?
BTW I remember the Marines spread all over the lower decks of Newport seasick when we went south to Gitmo in a storm. LST were also not know as good riding ships.
I'm sure he reported it as he saw it lee.
At any rate...An Austal in heavy seas.
Pay no mind to the obviously wrong title.
And different hull type or no....Cavas reported similar sharp pitch and roll motions.
Because, "its the commercial way." ...
Ferries can afford to cancel
Warships cannot.
And when commercial ships -operated with a commercial mindset- are pressed into dicey politico-military situations...
It can come with potentially significant negative consequences.
A ferry chartered to evacuate American citizens from Libya to Malta remains docked in Tripoli because of bad weather, the State Department says. The boat had been scheduled to leave Wednesday.
"It will leave as soon as the seas will allow," spokeswoman Leslie Phillips said.
The ferry is carrying 40 U.S. Embassy employees, their 127 family members and 118 evacuees from other countries, she said. Non-essential embassy employees and their dependents had been ordered to leave the country.
H-53 was NOT in the requirements from the Navy.
Not winching down because it's not required, and needlessly complex. The grid/harpoon system is nice and simple. Both LCS should have it for Firescout.
Nice pics of the grid here: http://www.n2nl.net/gallery/patrol2/PC120023
DD250, not 254 -- 254 is a security requirements form. LCS-2 was accepted on 18 December 2009, LCS-1 on 18 September 2008.
My money says the comm's went out on the Fire Scout. And Fire Scout is either an over-sized drone or an unmanned rotary armed vehicle...I'd like it to be both.
FLASH TRAFFIC:
LCS-2 left Mayport Naval Station Monday and has not returned.
In other news, a local dredging company was hired to remove coffee grounds that had built up at Bravo-1 Pier station....
roger that but you know what abou the MCM version of H-53?
Ken is right of cousre my CRS showing. Rest I do remember corectly.
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