Saturday, August 14, 2010

Sal, what about the Ground Zero mosque?


A lot of you have emailed bits about the mosque proposed near Ground Zero since the very start, and others have emailed me since asking why I have yet to comment on it. Well, as I wait for the family to wake up so I can mow the yard - here you go.

I haven't for a simple and selfish reason; disgust. Almost 5 years ago, back in SEP 05 I did a post titled,
"NYC to build Mosque at WTC site."

I remember picking that title as it was one of the most mindless actions I could think of. It was, of course, a parody. It was the only think I could think of that was worse than what they proposed on the site of Flight 93's impact area.

Then, as now, things are rather simple. Let me be lazy and quote myself from SEP 05 - it applies to the then "parody-now-fact" as well.
This is complete madness. Like a lot of these things it boils down to one or two things:

1. The designers, politicians, and judges are completely ignorant rubes who were not homeschooled by Anne and therefore have no knowledge of history, symbols and propriety.

2. The designers knew exactly what they were doing and the politicians, judges and citizens are so paralyzed by political correctness and afraid of being called nasty names that they cannot and will not stop this affront to decency.

I don’t buy #1. Say what you want about the designer’s politics, but they are not ignorant and uneducated. My next travel claim is on #2.
It is even worse.

I'm not going to use up much space here - it is so obvious. Just read
this as it is close to what I would do. The name tells you all you need to know.

Well - the name is the easy give away about what is going on here. Cordoba House. Sure they can change the name if they want - but it doesn't matter. They showed their cards from the start. From relatively neutral Wiki.
The Caliphate of Córdoba (Arabic: خلافة قرطبة Khilāfat Qurṭuba) ruled the Iberian peninsula (Al-Andalus) and North Africa from the city of Córdoba, from 929 to 1031. This period was characterized by remarkable success in trade and culture; many of the masterpieces of Islamic Iberia were constructed in this period, including the famous Great Mosque of Córdoba. In January of 929, Abd-ar-Rahman III proclaimed himself Caliph (Arabic: خليفة) of Córdoba in place of his original title Emir of Córdoba (Arabic: أمير قرطبة 'Amīr Qurṭuba). Abd-ar-Rahman III was a member of the Umayyad dynasty; the same dynasty who held the titles of Emir of Córdoba since 756. The rule of the Caliphate is known as the heyday of Muslim presence in the Iberian peninsula.
I love NYC - not an easy thing for a Southerner to say. NYC, however, is ruled by fools.

There is only one Cordoba that should be near Ground Zero.

145 comments:

AW1 Tim said...

Concur.  Anyone care to comment about how this would play out if, say, a group of Vhristians tried to build a Cathedral in Mecca?

The problem with islam (among many) is that it is "one way". It's not just a religion. It is a government, it's both religion and secular law bundled together in a Gordian Knot of misery.

Our only hope now is that one or more of the construction unions refuse to work on this project.

There have to be lines drawn and people stand up and say NO! to these sorts of things, otherwise the tombstone of These United States will carry the headerL "Died of Democracy".

virgil xenophon said...

In regards both the mosque in NYC and the preceding post on the "long game" the best description I can think of regarding our current "leadership"--civilian AND military--is what someone commented over at Lucianne's place the other day: "It's like someone opened the doors and all the crazy people came in and sat down--and refused to leave."

ewok40k said...

I wouldn't believe it at first, and now I am dumbfounded - is anyone THAT stupid?
Think somebody wants to erect "Aryan culture center" in Auschwitz next to the camp. No friggin way.
Somebody, stop that madness...

MR T's Haircut said...

The need to move the focus group to 9 Year olds.. even a child can see the stupidity in this...

this is a further push to show dominance from the Caliphate.. Follow the money.. where is the money coming from to build this shitpile....?

BostonMaggie said...

But how can their be a problem if POTUS says it's all right?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/08/14/2010-08-14_tolerance_a_founding_us_principle.html

Meanwhile I will be in town to support Greg Gutfeld's gay bar "Goat's Night Off" when it opens.  The pulled pork sandwiches will be to die for!

***Note - Princess Crabby does not oppose Islam or mosques or even mosques in New York City.  She opposed this particular mosque named Cordoba to be run by an Iman who wants to be labelled moderate but will not denounce Hamas.

YNSN said...

I don't like the comparisons to something 'we' could do 'over there'.  A Cathedral in Instanbul, or even Mecca... It doesn't matter.  Because they would be outraged by such a thing doesn't make our own outrage any better, or more palitable for me. 

The american system works because it places itself above all that.  The constitution attempted to place the government above emoitional religious based reactions, like we are seeing here with this mosque.  Individuals can be outraged and disgusted.  But, our government and its officers as an institution cannot. 

Their right to build that mosque is as fundamental as owning a gun.  Making an exception here is just as slipery of a slope as making exceptions for any other right protected in the Constitution. 

I don't like it being done.  But, allowing them to do this keeps us from being like them.  We don't destroy thousands of years old statues of Buddah.  We don't kill in the name of a god.  We are not them.

LT B said...

Um, no.  It is nice to frame this in a 1st Amendment arguement, and it may make you feel all gushy and warm inside, but being that we are at war w/ those some biches, and PR is as much as part of the war, we have to draw the line on putting a mosque there w/ a big blinking neon sign that says, "Eff you infidel, we killed your people and now we own your soul and will continue to show you are weak, we are strong and will use any means necessary to erode your civilization and bring ours in."  Because THAT mosque, THERE is doing just that. 

As for POTUS, how does he feel about a KKK office outside his property in Chicago and across from the White House?  Is there any difference between the hate that both spew?

Carl said...

Um, hello?!? There are cathedrals in Istanbul! Sheesh!

The uproar over the Cordoba House is complete ignorance. How close is too close? Should we ban all muslim centers in the U.S.? Shall we make the U.S. a baptist theocracy? Why not a catholic theocracy instead? Islam is a religion just as Catholicism is a religion even though it does have a state headed by the head of Catholicism. The U.S. shouldn't be the equivalent for Baptists or Lutherans!

I for one am not afraid of a house of worship of a mainstream religion close to Ground Zero. The democracy of the United States and the Constitution is stronger than any religion.  Heck, non-radical Muslim U.S. citizens died in the attacks just like Jews, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, etc.

The problem with intolerance is that it doesn't stop at one group. The next group could be YOU!

YNSN said...

It's not weakness, though.  A culture which cannot adapt is a culture that will not win.  Is this where American culture ends, then?  When we view a religion as a culture (does a Muslim from Indonesia have the same culture as one from Turkey?) we stop looking at everything a culture is.  What is really expected from this mosque?  IED attacks in NYC?  Throngs of radicalized youths?  America is lost because of one building, indeed our soul will be owned?

There is no difference between the hate that the KKK spews and AQ.  But, I don't think it is AQ that is building this mosque.  But, religious intolerance is equally universal:  The government in Mecca denying a church to be built is no different than us denying a mosque.

As for the PR aspect, how do you think it will spin with the hearts and minds out here when AQ's propaganda tells them that we destroy mosques?  'Look! Look! The infidel will not allow a mosque to be build in their land.  Why would they allow you to have one here, in this land they've taken from us (AFG)!'  it's not hard to see how it will be used against us.  
 
LT B, you know me.  I could give a damn about feeling warm and fuzzy.  I want to win, and how Americans are acting over this, is not helping. 
 
What demonstrates America's weakness more than anything else, is our lack of support we've had for any Government since '03.  The growing islamophobia in America, the polarization of politics, the breakdown in discourse.  That shows America's weakness way more than allowing a building to be built to worship a god most of the world doesn't even believe in.  
 
I've hardly been in the States since '08.  Every crazy thing that has happened I've only watched happen.  Maybe I've diverged from our culture, I don't know.  One thing that seems evident to me though, is that AQ probably won't ever have to do another attack on US soil again.  We're tearing ourselves apart on our own.  If things don't change domestically, we will lose. 

cdrsalamander said...

Dude; don't be so binary and closed minded.  This isn't about American Muslims or Islam - this is about the man at the front of the Cordoba Init. - the money behind it - and the propriety.   

I spent the balance of my adult life serving with and for Muslims.  If you don't get that - the intolerance is with you.  I will admit to one intolerance - I am intolerant to intolerance.

Mary Alpha said...

I just wonder who is getting paid off and how much?

doc75 said...

If the President thinks that a mosque at Ground Zero is OK, then can we have prayer back in the public schools?

11B40 said...

Greetings:


<p><span>Back during my all-expense-paid tour of sunny Southeast Asia, the bad guys had a trick they used to use when the good guys showed up in their junglehood. They would send out a couple of their guys to serve as lures to try to draw us into their kill zone.</span>
</p><p><span>The problem isn’t the mosque or its location. The problem is the Islam. Muslims have been doing things like this for 13 centuries. They are well practiced at it. While trying to resist the mosque is, in a sense, admirable, it takes the focus off Islam and Mohammed and his 9-year-old trophy wife Aisha. The muslims are getting their jollies watching the idiot infidels banging their heads against their Islamic wall. They have put the infidel, once again, into a no-win situation. If the mosque is stopped, Americans have suspended their American values. If the mosque goes forward, the muslims have put their supremacist Islamic thumb in America’s eye. If the muslims walk away from the deal they are magnanimous benefactors to their fellow citizens.</span>
</p><p><span>My youth in the Bronx tells me to get in touch with the owner of the property across the street and propose putting one of those computer message boards on the outside of his building. The message board could be entitled “Islamic Thought of the Day” or some such. I would recommend for the opening day, “Mohammed married Aisha when she was six and consumated the marriage when she was nine.” Oh, yeah, and perhaps an artful “Have a Nice Day” across the bottom of the board would be appropriate.</span>
</p><p><span>It’s the Islam, stupid!!! It always has been and always will be. What they want most to protect is what we must attack. There is a reason why muslims are so easily aggravated by criticism of their “religion” or proselytization of its adherents by other religions. It’s their greatest vulnerability.</span>
</p>

AW1 Tim said...

Apples and Oranges. Istanbul is the capital of a reasonably secular Muslim state. A rare sort of glimmer of hope for things in the Middle East.

And this mosque is intended as a slight against these United Stetes.  From the name to the location, it has pissing on America written all over it.

And I'm not a Christian. I just chose to use the example of a Cathedral because it's easier to write than "Christian House of Worship". Perhaps I ought to have used "Synagogue"?

  This whole program of demand for "tolerance" from islam is a ruse. When they give to every other religion the same respect they demand for themselves, then I'll reconsider my opinion.

hajo-hi said...

@Carl: Yes, there are cathedrals in Istanbul. An as an individual, you may practice Christianity.

But you may not form a denomination, churches are no statutory corporations, they have no legal status. They cannot by real estate and built churches. They cannot employ anyone and may not call on people from abroad.

AFAIK, that was state of matter in 2009. There were proposed changes to the laws. I do not know if they came into effect. They culminated in the point that the TURKISH FOREIGN OFFICE had to give allowance to built a church. Message: Christians are foreigners.

MR T's Haircut said...

Carl said, " Should we ban all muslim centers in the U.S.? "

I'm GOOD with that...

MR T's Haircut said...

YNSN,

I disagree with you on the muslim RIGHT to build a mosque.  This is a culture that is separate from other cultures.  They refuse to assimilate and ADD VALUE to OUR culture. The muslim choice to live separate, demand separate laws, and go about their business separate from the rest of our nation. That is not inclusion..  The value they have on their women, the lack of innovation on thier part and the barbaric valus system they call Sharia is ALL I need to know.. they are a cancer not compatible with our way of life.  Sorry, I consider the entire "islam is peaceful" as a moral pejorative...

Anonymous said...

I agree. We should regulate religion.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Well, I wonder if we could build a memorial to National Socialism in Tel Aviv?  This is not stupid, nor misguided.  It is entirely intentional.  From the name, to the Imam, to the source of funding, clouded as it is. The Islamic version of Hitler's remark about Daladier and Chamberlain.  "My enemies are worms.  I saw them at Munich".   "Islam's enemies are worms, we see them at Ground Zero."

I am only as intolerant of Islam as Islam is of me.  I reserve that right.  To call Islam a religion of "peace" is an absurd platitude to a populace which demands its own society and scorns every other, including our own, to the point of trying to destroy it. 

That Barack Hussein Obama tells us that to object to this calculated insult from mass murderers of our citizens is proof positive that he knows little of American values and American society.  He is a disgrace to this country and the office he holds, and could do no more damage to our nation and its defenses if he were a paid Soviet agent.  Which some of his associates may have been.  His is a shameful and damaging administration that believes in American exceptionalism only when it applies to Muslims being given license for this sort of blasphemy or African-Americans being given preference over the evil and malevolent white people of this land.

YNSN said...

I just finished reading this

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/29127

To them it is highly symbolic.  But, all it is for them is hope. 

I don't want to fight the kind of war they want to fight. I don't want this to be about religion.  They don't know how bad they will lose. 

I take back much of what I said earlier.  But, if this war really needs to be on the terms they want to fight. 

I sit here, and all I can ask myself, is why are we Nation building?

USAF Mike said...

Dunno about the POTUS, but there's the whole Skokie, Ill neo-nazi march.  The First Amendment is damn near absolute in this country (thankfully.)

Stepping outside of whatever would be the most polite or appropriate course of action, the cold hard fact is that regardless of what is offensive or insensitive, the owners of the property have complied with all applicable laws and regulations regarding the location of the mosque.  If you want to continue to use the force of government to prevent them from building a mosque on their property, you are no better than any country (like Saudi Arabia) that prevents people from building a religious building on their own property...like YNSN said, we aren't them.

Of course, I doubt much of that matters to some of you here, since they are MUSLIMS and MUSLIMS are different, but that's not yet (thankfully) the law in this country.

USAF Mike said...

Chris Hitchens is right on with this column: http://www.slate.com/id/2263334/

I don't think he's someone you could easily describe as a "dhimmi" or whatever, but he sees the popular opposition to this as what it is: demagogy that is opposed to the spirit and letter of the First Amendment.

Of course, I'm sure that doesn't matter because he's just an apologist for MUSLIMS and all MUSLIMS are TERRORISTS, but like I said...this is Chris Hitchens we're talking about here.

USAF Mike said...

Thank you for your support of the Constitution, good sir.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Mike,

Your points are valid, to an extent.  The First Amendment is, indeed, nearly sacrosanct.  Nearly.  So should we allow for the Nazis in Skokie to build a party headquarters with the swastika flag flying, and pictures of Hitler for public display?  Where Neo-National Socialists can meet weekly and hear party members preach their anti-semitic hatred and theories of racial purity?  A bit different from a march. 

Come to think of it, the Cordoba Mosque Imam, the Skokie Nazis, and Jeremiah Wright seem to have a lot in common...

USAF Mike said...

"<span>Your points are valid, to an extent.  The First Amendment is, indeed, nearly sacrosanct.  Nearly.  So should we allow for the Nazis in Skokie to build a party headquarters with the swastika flag flying, and pictures of Hitler for public display?  Where Neo-National Socialists can meet weekly and hear party members preach their anti-semitic hatred and theories of racial purity?  A bit different from a march."</span>

Yes, it is a bit different from a march...the Nazis in Skokie still should have been allowed to do exactly that, provided they met all applicable zoning regulations and the like.

Short of yelling fire in a crowded theater, the First Amendment is absolute.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

So there will be no objections or sudden zoning or administrative obstacles when someone wants to put up the "Blessed Cleansing of Srebrenica Orthodox Church" right next door to the mosque? 

When THAT happens, I will agree that the First Amendment is being equally applied.

USAF Mike said...


Old NFO said...

<p><span>Islam is a religion, like Christianity.  It is also a political movement, like National Socialism.  It is also a social organization, like, well I can’t think of a fit comparison.  It has it’s own laws, which trump secular laws.  Islam has it’s own customs, that trump those of host countries.  It has a central philosophy, written in the Koran, that, by the use of force if necessary, it will displace all other religions, governments and societies.  Islam is more totalitarian than fascism or communism.  There is no facet of life that is not governed by Islamic law or custom.</span>
</p><p><span></span>
</p><p><span>If the Nazis had declared themselves a religion and Odin as the supreme god, would we allow them to practice their “religion” freely in the United States?  Considering what the Koran, and the majority of Muslim religious leaders in the world, say about Jews, and to a lesser extent Christians, only their status as a religion prevents them from being widely labeled as a hate group.</span>
</p><p><span></span>
</p><p><span>Considering the status of every non-Moslem, and even Moslem splinter groups, in EVERY majority Moslem country, it seems as if many in the US have a suicidal tendency when it comes to Islam.  How many people think Moslems in  America would be tolerant of Christians and Jews if the tables were turned?  It has been said that the US Constitution is not a suicide pact.  Well neither is our customary tolerance for other religions.  Islam is an almost absolutely intolerant entity.  To allow it to flourish in our midst is like a family of sheep raising a young wolf.  It works until the wolf is big and strong enough to be a problem, and then it may be too late.</span>
</p><p><span></span>
</p><p><span>Turkey is rapidly becoming an Islamist state after less than a century of secularism so don't look to them as an example of tolerance.  As for their tolerance, I recommend you google St. Sophia's Cathedral in Istanbul.  Look at Europe to see the future here.  Europeans need only look at Lebanon to see their own future.</span>
</p>

UltimaRatioRegis said...

I saw that!  Yes, August 14th!  Good stuff. 

MR T's Haircut said...

I am gonna get up and go get a beer, URR you want one my friend?

MR T's Haircut said...

<span>Mike, youre welcome, Enemies Foreign and Domestic and all.....</span>

MR T's Haircut said...

Point of Observation.. believing Islam is a religion of peace, is also to believe that the Chrylser Cordoba is a "small car"...

USAF Mike said...

Except it's no longer just about the "Ground Zero" Mosque: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?_r=1

(Yes, I know it's the NYT, just read the damn article).

"“They’re Americans, they deserve to have a place to worship just like everybody else.”"

Exactly.

sid said...

<span>"Meanwhile I will be in town to support Greg Gutfeld's gay bar "Goat's Night Off" when it opens.  The pulled pork sandwiches will be to die for! "</span>

Bet the good authorities of NYC would ban Thursday night Pig Racing at place...

USAF Mike said...

"<span><span>If the Nazis had declared themselves a religion and Odin as the supreme god, would we allow them to practice their “religion” freely in the United States?  Considering what the Koran, and the majority of Muslim religious leaders in the world, say about Jews, and to a lesser extent Christians, only their status as a religion prevents them from being widely labeled as a hate group.</span>"</span>

Per the First Amendment, they would've been free to espouse whatever beliefs they felt.  It's when they actually do something about it that the government can step in.  So until you can point to this specific Mosque directly causing an act of violence, they're free to do whatever they'd like.

Of course, that misses the point, because I keep forgetting...all Muslims are terrorists, all Mosques are terrorist breeding grounds, blah blah blah.

AW1 Tim said...

AFMike,

Then I am certain that you'll be happy to chisel the words "Died of Democracy" on America's tombstone. The Costitution is NOT a suicide pact, and we DO have every right to step in and just say NO to a cultural abomination like this.

This entire mosque, from concept to completion, is designed as a slap in the face to everything we cherish as a nation, and those supporting it are laughing at American values and culture. If Islam truly wanted respect, it wouldn't be so frikkin' tome deaf to everyone and everything about it.

  Islam is no different than a Hollywood Diva, a spoiled, clueless narsissist who thinks that everything revolvces around her and throws a hissy fit whenever anyone isn't lavishing praise and gifts and attention upon her.

  Every other religion on this planet seems to be able to get along with all the others, except Islam. Any clue why that might be? Mosque by Ground Zero? To be named the Cordoba mosque? Hello? Anyone? Beuller?

DM05 said...

I'm still trying to get the head around the whole Islam thing. Attempting to be enlightened even, reading "Three Cups of Tea" about a mountaineer turned school builder in the Af/Pak, only cuz it was left over from Mrs. DM05's bookclub. That there is a hard core component, and snipers are sending 'em to Allah 1x1 is OK with me. That cowardly politicians (another oxy...) in the US would even consider such a slap as this Mosque near the worst failure/disaster/event of our lifetime, leaves me speechless.

USAF Mike said...

Who determines what is a "cultural abomination"?  You?  Put it to a vote? 

That's not the way it works, and no matter how much you may hate Islam, that's not the way it should work.

Again, did you read who wrote the piece at that link?  It's Chris Hitchens...he hates (as I do) whenever anyone manages to work out special treatment for a group, as Islam (and many others) have done.  Making it sound like we're advocating the complete destruction of Western Civilization just because we don't want the government deciding what religions are and aren't permissible is pretty disingenuous.

Do you understand what sort of a precedent it would set if the government stepped in here and said (as you seem to want it to do) you can't do what you want with your property because of your religious beliefs?  I know this is a CHRISTIAN NATION and all to some on the right, but again, that's not the way it works.  Period.

The right is generally on the side of property rights, but it has a blind spot when it comes to Islam.  You mention Islam in the slightest and the right reflexively reacts with strong dislike bordering on hatred, and that disturbs me.

USAF Mike said...

To expand on my fourth paragraph, allowing the precedent to exist that the government can tell someone what they can and can't do with their property on the basis of their religious/political/whatever beliefs would enable the government to, for example, tell an anti-abortion group they couldn't build their center across from an abortion clinic, or that a CHRISTIAN church couldn't put up a church next to a mosque because it would be offensive to the mosque.

Do you understand this?  You chip away at the Constitution because you don't like the beliefs someone else holds, and eventually it will bite you in the ass.  Of course, the funny part is that if we used my first example (anti-abortion group next to an abortion clinic) I guarantee you that at least 80% of the people in this debate would change their opinions...the left would be indignant at the "offensiveness" and "insensitivity" and the right would be insisting on Constitutional freedoms and property rights.  That's what makes me so sick about all this...on the parts of most people in the debate (on both sides), it's not about a principled stand, it's about politics and a reflexive hatred for Islam.

幸平平平平杰 said...

愛,拆開來是心和受兩個字。用心去接受對方的一切,用心去愛對方的所有。......................................................................

AW1 Tim said...

Well Mike,

   Apparently the government VCAN tell people what to do. We have been told we HAVE to buy health insurance or pay fines. A single gay man in California just told 7 MILLION Californians that they COULDN'T vote the way they wanted to.

 I can call it an abomination, and I will, becaue that is truth and fact, in any definition of the word abomination. You can take your moral equivalence and play with it because that dog soesn't hunt. This nation does NOT have to allow this mosque to be built at that site, and it is only through the physical and moral cowardice of those who were supposed to represent us that such a bastard-born concept, such a back-handed slap to our national dignity and the memories of more than 2700 good people, who were murdered by Islamists, that what should have been a still-born idea has gotten as far as it has.

USAF Mike said...

No, a single gay man in California got a court to agree with him that the law that 7 MILLION (probably CHRISTIAN since this is a CHRISTIAN NATION) Californians voted for was unconstitutional.  They were free to vote the way they liked, but the way they voted was determined to be unconstitutional.  Cut and dried.  Constitution exists to protect the minority, not the sensibilities of the majority, etc. etc.

Not touching the whole healthcare thing, because I think that the states challenging that particular portion of the law have a better than 50% chance of getting it held unconstitutional.

That said, it's interesting to me to watch the rhetoric on both sides of the political spectrum when the courts intervene...almost without fail, whenever the courts do something that that particular side of the political spetrum don't like, it's JUDICIAL ACTIVISM, but when the courts do something that they do like, it's RULE OF LAW.  Exhibit A for this would be what would occur if my first example (anti-abortion group trying to put in a center next to an abortion clinic) actually took place...I'd be willing to put money down that better than 80% of those who are shouting the loudest on this would completely reverse their position (on both sides.)

Speaking of rule of law, unless you think we shouldn't have that, we have to allow the mosque to be built.  But of course, I forgot...rule of law doesn't apply here to those terrorist MUSLIMS (after all, the President is one, right?) because they are...shit, I guess there really isn't any logical reason why it shouldn't apply to Muslims.  Oh well, forget rule of law, time to appeal to emotion and engage in a bit of demagogy.

AW1 Tim said...

Mike: That single gay man that nullified the votes of 7 million citizens was the JUDGE.

  That man should be impeached and given a coat of tar and feathers and run out of town, but that's just my humble opinion.

MR T's Haircut said...

USAF Mike,

That ONE man was a Judge.  WHO HAPPENS TO BE GAY.. got it?  He NULLIFIED the will of the people.  Plain and simple.  get your facts straight.

USAF Mike said...

Right, so because someone is gay they automatically cannot rule in cases involving gays because as we all know gays aren't people, they are sex crazed maniacs who want nothing more than to fornicate in front of everyone.

Well, if gays can't rule in cases involving gays, I suppose that we should prohibit straight people from ruling in cases involving straight people.  But this case involves both gays and straights...so who could we get to rule?  It's a connundrum.  Maybe an animal, since as we all know, allowing gays to marry will force everyone in this country to get married to an animal.

And regarding your tar and feathers option...grow up.  I reiterate my earlier statement about the political sides in this country and the courts...JUDICIAL ACTIVISM/RULE OF LAW blah blah blah, no principles just politics.

The judge was nominated by Reagan, was appointed by Bush, and had his appointment criticized by none other than Nancy Pelosi because he was "insensitive" towards gays.  But yes, he should be ridden out of town on a rail because he's obviously ruling the way he did because he's a fag who can't do anything but help out all his little fag buddies (who aren't people, after all), not because he came to a principled belief on an issue.

Grow up, or even better, move to a country where they really do ride judges out of town on a rail (or perhaps where they just execute them) when they do something that a group of people doesn't agree with.  Something tells me you won't find it to be the fantasy you think it is.

Wharf Rat said...

USAF Mike:

you are completely wrong on the issue - it's not about 'all muslums are terrorists'.  Its about this - if they had a shred of decency in them, they wouldn't build this mosque at this site.  That is the issue.  That's exactly what the liberal media would say if the tides were turned and Christian's wanted to build a church across from a mosque that had some terrible incident happen there.

This is a 'stick in the eye', or 'poke in the eye' situation.  This is intentional by a imam who blamed 9/11 on America.  Yet we have saved the lives of muslims in Europe in the late '90's, yes, saved muslims from Saddam, we saved them and continue to do so in Iraq, we saved Saudi Arabia from Saddam, we have muslim fishing trawlers trailing US Navy Cruisers because they're protected from pirates.

USAF - what kind of man are you that can't see this?  It isn't about freedom of religion - its about a group of muslims that are poking their finger in our collective eyes.  For all the crap about sensitivity over the years, and finding offense at stupid things, which is typically a liberal position, how does this not fit?!!!!  Seriously, what kind of man are you? 

Wharf Rat said...

USAF Mike:

One other thing - they plan to start building on 9/11/11.  IF that isn't designed to offend any decent person.............................!  That's specifically designed to stick a dagger in our backs - and you can't see this?!!!!  It's the motivation that is behind this - they know it offends the families of the victims, and people like me who support those families, and they don't care.

They're using 'freedom of religion' to choke us.  As I said before, people of good character would never do this.  Freedom of Religion is a bedrock issue in our society, but should never be used to choke others.  You are a typical liberal who does not see the real issue. 

I actually don't care where they put this mosque - that's not the issue for me.  There is no question that they're doing this to further their agenda, to piss people off, to use our freedoms against us, and then poof - no more freedoms a few years down the line, because we were too stupid to see this.  And you're a useful idiot for them.

Wharf Rat said...

AW1 Tim:

Great post.  I am a Christian, and I truly believe that the Christian Culture in America allows for freedom to believe, or not believe as I do - and I'd fight to defend that right.  For all the talk about Christians (politically) wanting to force our views on others, that is simply a crock.   You are correct, as is Mr. T, this mosque is designed to further piss on America's values, as you eloquently state.

No way they respect my beliefs.

ewok40k said...

If this is going to be built - put it under constant FBI surveillance and close it down on the first count of terrorist brainwashing - which I expect would take about 2 weeks. Or use it as a honeytrap to lure wannabe terrorists to better keep eye on them.

DeltaBravo said...

It could have its advantages... I completely agree, Ewok... funnelling a lot of suspicious characters into a vortex.  If the FBI is smart, it will own about 3 floors of the buildings across the street and next door and wire the whole thing for microwave eavesdropping.

Did we learn nothing from our "friends" the Soviets and the Mt. Alto fiasco?

DeltaBravo said...

Do judges make laws?  I thought they interpreted laws.  If Judgey Boy didn't like the law, he's in the wrong job.  He should run for the Cal. legislature....

Old NFO said...

Not all Moslems are terrorists, but pretty much all terrorists are Moslems.  If you bothered to read the Koran or study the Hadiths that concern the treatment of non-Moslems you would find that the "extremists" are following the letter of Islamic law.  I suggest reading Robert Spencer's work to counteract the PC crap you've obviously been exposed to.  

Moderate Moslems are typically non-observant Moslems.  They choose to ignore the Koran's commands to slay the infidel.

DeltaBravo said...

I think back to another massive insult... the Federal Government took Robert E. Lee's home and began using it as a cemetery to bury Yankee soldiers.  Think that wasn't a slap in the face and a symbolic finger in the eye?

But it's funny how Americans are able to take things like that and with the force of our national character and time... we turned a landmark insult to half the country into a sacred space of our own.

Maybe some time and the character and the ingenuity of the American people can work the same wonders at Ground Zero and its nearby buildings.... 

We were never a people who surrendered to the finger in the eye....

USAF Mike said...

The concept of judicial review has been enshrined in American jurisprudence since Marbury v. Madison...for over 200 years.  If you don't like it, I'd suggest you try and somehow get that little bit of precedence changed.  Good luck.  However, the list of civil rights that have been protected by judicial review is staggering, so I'd recommend you think twice before waving your magic wand and doing away with it.

The "judges don't make laws, they interpet them" is another tired canard that both sides trot out whenever a judge makes a decision they don't like.  Try something a little more original.

USAF Mike said...

Right.  Because every Mosque does nothing but breed terrorism.

But I forgot, all Muslims are terrorists, so of course that's the case.

(Insert rolleyes emoticon here)

USAF Mike said...

I'm a liberal?  Try again.  I guess I'd be a liberal in the classical sense of the word, but today I'd best be described as libertarian.  Not everyone who disagrees with your assertion that there is a vast Muslim conspiracy out there that is working to deny us all our freedoms is a liberal.  Some of us are people who just don't feel the need to live in fear of an imaginary terrorist led conspiracy.

Are there Muslims out there who hate the U.S.?  Absolutely.  Are there Muslims out there who have gotten criticism of their beliefs shut down?  Absolutely (the same holds true for Catholics, minorities, Christians, and pretty much any other "group" you can think of).  Is there a vast worldwide conspiracy of Muslims conspiring to take away your freedoms?  No.  Advocating that we restrict freedoms at home just because some believe there is such a conspiracy is exactly what "they" (the very small number of people I described in the first sentence) want us to do.  This fearmongering is exactly the same kind of thinking that led to the abomination known as the PATRIOT Act, and it will have the same damaging result.

They don't have to take away our freedoms if we do it ourselves because we're in fear of them.

Byron said...

DB, I think Marse Robert would have approved. He understood that he forswore his oath of commission and had he known that his land would become a final resting place for all American warrior he would have said it was a fine thing to do.

Goatmaster said...

Mike - try this line of thought.
The State of Virginia kept Walt Disney Corp from building a theme park next to Manasas (sp?) battlefield.  The justification is the battlefield is part of the national history and should not be used for someone else's messaging.  Ground Zero is also a national battlefield in the "War on Terror", the government has the right to keep others for messaging off this.  I would be opposed to a church calling itself the "ground zero church" and saying they are opening to offer an outreach to Muslims in that same location.

If the Constitution demands we allow the ground zero mosque, how did the State of VA keep Disney away from Manasas?

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Mike,

Ever read the PATRIOT Act?  Tell me what new and evil powers it gives the Feds.  And what damage it has done.

cdrsalamander said...

Mike.  
You need to stop emoting and do a little research about who is involved here.  This is not your Muslim next door, your Muslim doctor, or the Mosque down the street (which I have all three).

LT B said...

Follow the money guys.  Who is funding it?  I went to grad school in Tampa/St. Pete.  We had 2 or 3 guys removed for islamic extremism and that mosque there is a center for wahabi preaching w/ hate mongering paid for from Saudi Arabia.  The symbolism here IS important.  We have mosques all over.  Why THERE?  When I can build a Christian place of worship near Mecca that preaches tolerance, freedom, love and forgiveness then we are good to go.  Until then, they can go back to their home of despotism if they want to preach the intolerance and hate they do.

LT B said...

As they move out of secular governance, stand by for changes on all of that. 

LT B said...

Yes, but id DOES have Corinthian Leather. 

Southern Air Pirate said...

Dude in case you haven't pay attention the extremists have hijacked this religion and the national media treat the extremist as members of an oppressed minority. On the flip side though take a look at what the local media has to say about the extremists of some other religions (and by other religions I mean Christian and Hebrews). Whether it is in your local news stories where they are held up to the scathing light of what the heck they believe (see real world example of that off shoot branch of Mormonism which was tried recently for sexual assualt and pedobear stuff) or they are ridiculed in prime time (see any sit com where the characters are supposed to be catholics but rip up the church cause of the Padre pedobear stuff) or just make them out to be weird hate filled bigots (see any modern hollywood film where the characters run across some sort of Christian and the characters participate in something the Christians don't believe in).
Mean while even South Park creators can't show certain epsoides of thier show anymore cause of the precieved insult to Islam. The newspaper in Denmark that dared to ask how a bunch of ink and dead trees could harm an 2000+ yr old religion saw one of thier editors murder and thier offices fire bombed. The government of even some of the most liberal countries in Europe are called racists cause the ask thier Islamic believing immigrants to try and assimilate themselves into the countries fabric and not the other way around.
Something is wrong in the world when a religion that has been around just as long as the other big two is just now starting to go through thier "Spanish Inqusition" period. It is even harder when a country that believes in freedom of faith, lets certain faiths get trampled on in the idea of co-exsistance meanwhile others are allowed free reign on thier extremist side to spread a message of hatred.

SubIconoclast said...

Wow, USAF Mike appears to be having a ball putting words in the mouths of others throughout this thread.  Hard to understand why someone who so "obviously" has everyone else figured out wouls still express such frustration in his comments.  Underappreciated genius or overly-developed ego?  


Back to topic, nature abhors a vacuum.  The more we encourage nonviolent religious activities and the groups who practice them, the less opportunity there will be for those who seek to abuse religion as a lever for inciting violence.  I'm betting NYC would prefer having a mainstream, moderate mosque out in the open rather than encouraging Muslims in lower Manhattan to practice underground.  Instead of attempting to block any possibility of Muslims gathering to share their religion anywhere near the WTC site, I would make clear (through policy statement or even new laws if necessary) that peaceful assembly is always encouraged and that support for violence is never tolerated.  And then I would invest in continued engagement with the mosque by non-Muslim city officials as a path to continued transparency.  

Put yourself in the shoes of an extreme-Islamist terrorist organizer: would you have an easier time recruiting support in an environment where most Muslims practice publicly or in secret?  Where Muslims feel welcome or unwelcome in general society?  Where local government does or doesn't have access to local imams?  Where there is already available a strong alternative to your immediately violent brand of Islam, or where yours is the only game in town?  

I submit that something like the Cordoba House proposal will force the enemy out into the open, where he must compete for support in a venue where all may hear what he has to say.  Monitor both the activities and the rhetoric flowing from such a center as I&W, and if necessary address rhetoric before it has a chance to grow (address valid grievances, rebut invalid ones).  If all the local Muslims who aren't a threat congregate in public mosques, then those who would do violence cannot "swim like a fish through the river of the people" without exposing themselves as well - especially if they seek to gather followers.  An 'open society' is generally more vulnerable in the areas where it tries to remain 'closed,' and strongest where it is most transparent and accessible.  

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

One of the last good looking cars Chrysler made.

DeltaBravo said...

I agree, Byron.  He wrote letters to his wife telling her to take the George Washington memorabilia and bug out.  When she finally came back to the house and found they had buried Yankees in her rose garden she never lived in the house again.  And the Supreme Court gave it back to the Lee Family, which then sold it back to the gummint because it was now being used as a cemetery anyway.  I too think in the long run, Lee would be very proud of what his home became and the heroes and patriots buried there.

MR T's Haircut said...

IF the symbolism is not important to either the Islamic Facists or the west, then why do we take great pains to NOT operate on Fridays in most muslim countries?  Oh right cause that is out of respect to their religion.. not symbolism...

MR T's Haircut said...

Million Dollar question.. we cant even figure out how much Chuck Rangle gets paid.. how we gonna figure this out?

MR T's Haircut said...

Obama really really handed the republicans a big time gift come election year 10 and election year 12.. my god.. on the record saying he strongly supports a mosque at ground zero???  He is rewriting history while the war is still going on that resulted from this.. and now with a muddled strategy in that war, tells us he "strongly supports" this?  WTF?  Dude is either Dangerous or Stupid.. my money is on both.. cant wait to see the pol adds....

MR T's Haircut said...

not a reflex to hatred,, I react the same way with Rattlesnakes, Black Widow Spiders, Scorpions and things that are Dangerous and would KILL you.. I get it.

LT B said...

I am appalled!  APPALLED I tell you that such a display of sexual harassment/assault would be allowed here!  ;)

LT B said...

Uh, how can he be stupid?  He was from Hahvahd.  ;)   Where English (corps vs coprse) and math (95% of working Americans will get a tax reduction when ~40% were already NOT paying taxes) are both taught and held on high regard.  BTW, the captain at the academy I worked for was also a Hahvahd PhD and undergrad product.  No correlation to liberal doctrine and lack of common sense here, I'm certain.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Yeah, in 2045 the sailor will be named Bill and the nurse will be named Kevin.....

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Free beer?  I'm in!  Thank you, mon ami!

LT B said...

Well, minus the latest mis-management and desecration of the memories of the fallen, he'd be proud.

LT B said...

That's silly.  There are mosques all over the country.  They are not hidden.  They want to build a mosque, good on them.  They want to build it at ground zero?  Pound sand.  Once again, follow the money.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span>Ol' Barry Soetoro is one of those people I'd like to buy for what he's worth, and sell for what he thinks he's worth.  
 
Of course, I would get whacked for 39.6% taxes on the profit from the transaction, but it would still turn a tidy profit.</span>

FCC said...

I'm no JAG, but IRT this case, the phrase "conflict of interest" and word "recuse" come to mind.

No Gods Allowed said...

They should forbid any religious structure near Ground Zero. The problem isn't Islam, it's religion. Believing in an invisible man who lives in the sky and grants wishes and loves you but will consign you to an eternity of torment if you don't follow his arbitrary rules about graven images, covering, and misusing his name is stupid.

Nearly all the worlds problems are due to people taking religion seriously. It's simple: if you need the threat of a sky daddy spanking you to make you figure out that stealing and killing are wrong, then fine. And if the only time you can contemplate philosophy is seven am on Sunday with a group of other folks, that's fine too. But the minute you start dragging your primitive superstitious beliefs out into the public square and using them to make policy decisions, that's where you failed. Religion is evil, whether it's causing Christians to shoot abortion doctors because their buddy Jebus told them that fetuses are people, Muslims flying planes into buildings, Jews acting like douche bags and taking land because some moldy old book written by cattle sacrificing primitives told them it was theirs, people who take religion too seriously are a cancer on modern society. All the great advances are due to science and critical thinking. Cures for diseases, computers, a global communications network, understanding the physical world...this is all due to science. What has religion given us? What has it done for us? Precipitated wars and oppression, and created some neat works of art.

To allow any religious structure near ground zero is a slap in the face to rationalism, critical thinking, and the powers of capitalism and industry that have made western civilization great.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

...nor prohibiting free exercise thereof....

There will be a special place for the faithless.

GUEST said...

Want to see what Pres. Obama is doing to America ?

Read just one chapter of the book of 2 Chronicles.

2 Chronicles 28.    Chapter # 28 only will show you what Obama is doing to our country.

It will take you maybe 10 minutes to read, if you are slowly reading.

Byron said...

I'm sure that as you one day lie on your deathbed that you'll spurn the priest that waits to give you the Last Rites...

Guest said...

or at least read the LAST half of CHAPTER # 28.

Americans are so accustomed to ultra short Sound Bites.

No Gods Allowed said...

There will be no priest at my death bed because I'm an intelligent enlightened adult who knows there's no sky wizard. Why people continue to take those ridiculous fairy stories seriously is beyond me.

No Gods Allowed said...

I agree. I too am upset by the way Obama has shut up all the churches and is burning sacrifices on every street corner to other gods.

Oh wait. He isn't.

Once again some pointless story about some tinpot dictator of elder days is trotted out as though it had relevance to modern society. Fail.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

You left out the ten commandments, the avoidance of the 7 deadly sins and the protestant work ethic.  It's about the establishment of a religion, which for the ice cream cone on the  forehead as a result of attempting independent action crowd, means the the government doesn't take sides or favor one religion over another, in broad and general terms. 

Now when a religion declares holy war on all other religions AND the government, that's not explicitly covered.  However, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness without attempting to destroy others in their pursuit of their happiness is mentioned as a primary objective and the right to self defense is inherent.  So if the nation is in receipt of a notice of intent from an organization purporting to represent a religion, to convert all citizens under the sword as soon as logistically feasible, take it as a declaration of war and respond accordingly to all members of said organization, if not all nominal adherents to said religion.

Hope I cleared that up for you, "guest".

The whole atheism mistake, can't help you. Sorry.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Sorry misaddressed email. Should go to No Gods Allowed. My apologies, "guest".

UltimaRatioRegis said...

So those with faith are simply unenlightened.  Good to know. 

Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Adams, Franklin Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan. All ill-educated and superstitious half-wits who didn't understand the nature of man the way you do.

Southern Air Pirate said...

The same reason that science believed that by the 1900's everything that could be discovered had been discovered or that there were four fundamental elements (air, earth, water, fire) or that everything moved in perfect circles around the sun, or that there was no such thing as moutain gorillas, or that dinosaurs and man ruled the earth together or... I could go on with how many different things Science got "right" in the last thousands of years of enlightened discussion. However, it isn't worth it; why because for as much as atheists and science rips on those who believe in religon, those folks don't notice how many times thier "beliefs" have been proven false as well. As the man said in that book, "Ye with out sin cast the first stone" or for you enlightened folks "Note from pot to kettle, your abscene of color is amazing as mine." or how about this one "those in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks out"

No Gods Allowed said...

What do the seven commandments have to do with anything. Only three of them look anything like our laws. Otherwise US law says the exact opposite of the other seven.

No Gods Allowed said...

Proving once again why science is better than religion. It's willing to admit when a mistake is made, accepts new data, and searches for truth. Meanwhile, two thousand years later people still stick to the bible's assessment of homosexuality as evil.

Southern Air Pirate said...

As to taking religion too seriously. There have been times that people have taken an idea too seriously, even a scientifically based one. Having grown up in Virginia for a while, I still remember studying how that commonwealth spent time sending selected people in front of a judge and then over to a doctor against all against thier will, to be castrated in an attempt to imposed the scientific principal of Eugenics to the commonwealth. If you dig a little deeper there was a time period when enlighten intellectuals including a couple of Chief Justices of the SCOTUS and even a couple POTUS's all believed in the scientific principle of Eugenics and there were various laws passed on the books just in the Contentital US which authorized for the greater good of the society that certain genes, stupidity, and even lazines be eliminated from society through the use for forced castration. It only fell out of favor after WW2 and that was because the true horrors what the science based Nazi's did in the name of trying to create the pure human.
Let us also not forget the science based food faminie in the Ukraine in the 1920's. I mean if you really want to say that all the world's evil came from religion then your are not studying history the right way. I could go on with such things as the Tuskege experiments, the Nevada nuclear tests, the study of gentics alone could be viewed as evil since now some companies are using that as ways to deny coverage or even deny a right to a job.

Go ahead and live in your glass house. Give me a note on how well it keeps the rain and critters out as you keep throwing your stones.

Southern Air Pirate said...

Dude seriously go study the history just on physics. The hate, discontent, etc that came out when Enstien published his theory of relativity. It took well over forty (40) years for it to migrate from a W.A.G to becoming something that was accepted theory in physics. Even still there are some in the Physics world who are still trying to unprove it and scores more trying to prove it. From some of the books that I have read just on that theory when it was proposed, Enstien was literally laughed out of the conferences and some journals weren't publishing all the mail they recieved saying he was an idiot.
As to some of the other things that science has believed in, it has been no different then having basically the reformations with all the hate and vitrol or even the "Spanish Inquistion" style investigations into people who want to present balance and try to prove/disprove the alternate theory. These all seem to happen about every couple of decades. See the current debates over climate theory for an example. For just as many people who have clinged to thier relgious texts there have been just as many "enlightened" sciencetists that have clinged to thier theorms and texts. Neither side at times is willing to give an inch, but I have had an easier time debating a religious scholar then I have a science based scholar simply cause they are more willing to be open minded.

AW1 Tim said...

Science is better than religion?  Seriously? Like those qucks who keep saying humans are to blame for alleged glabal warming? the same scientists and moron enablers who, back in the 70's were screaming we'd all be freezing to death in 20 years if we DIDN'T DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW TO SAVE THE PLANET?

 Yea right.  You pretty much really need to get a life, because you've absolutely wasted the one you are currently claiming to have.  Atheists are those people who God decided just weren't worth a soul.

MR T's Haircut said...

I keep praying to God for my Flying Car... just sayin...

Byron said...

Bub, easy for you to say when you're hale and hearty. Lot harder when you ain't. Or, God forbid, a loved one is in danger and all you got is prayer to Him to save your loved one. Better yet, go outside someplace dark and simply lay back and look at the night sky. Anyone who can look at that glorious display has no heart, no soul and only a vessel filled with bitterness. Myself, I know He exists. I also know that He has a sense of humor, as He has also allowed mis-guided individuals like yourself to prattle on.

vvatc said...

"...you just won a brand new Chrysler Cordoba and you can pick it up in Morty's office!"  

name that movie

No Gods Allowed said...

Wow, I don't know where to begin. Global warming? Shows science in action. There's a healthy debate about what might be to blame. By the way, if you think human causes are absurd, do me a favor. Using the pressure of air at the surface of the earth, the radius of the earth, and the weight of a carbon atom, you can calculate the number of carbon dioxide atoms in the atmosphere. Now take the estimates of how much carbon is released by humans from burning fossil fuels. You can literally do the calcs on the back of a napkin, involving just multiplication. You won't think it's so absurd when you get the answer.

Yes, they laughed at Einstein at first, but repeated experiment showed he was correct. Science is falsifiable. Science results in statements that other people try to disprove. Religion has unquestioned dogma. Which is why two hundred years after the advent of refigeration, some folks still think pork is unclean. Religion is regressive and stagnant. Evolution is well understood, and is the basis of many medical procedures, but Christianity insists on pushing ridiculous creationism. Birth control could curb population booms that threaten our existence, but religion still pushes the silly abstinence line. Science can feed people, put men in the moon, etc. Religion does nothing for us. Science flies us to the moon, and religion flies us into buildings.

USAF Mike said...

So in other words, there have been countless evils committed by both science and religion, and they usually come about when people think they are absolutely infallibly correct.  Sounds about right to me.  Neither is as innocent as their most ardent supporters would believe.

Aethism fanatics who mock anyone with faith for being a stupid believer in a sky daddy (I think we know who I'm talking about) are as annoying as religious fanatics who condemn anyone without faith to eternal damnation (I'm looking at you, URR and AW1 Tim.)

Southern Air Pirate said...

Oh I should add that I am not against science, because I have seen all the good that it has done. I am against hypocrites who are unwilling and un able to have an intellecutally honest debate about thier belief system. Which reminded me of the best religion vs science debates that I heard years ago. It was in an A-school class during a break between an very religious sailor vs a crusty AT2. The debate was over electron theory and how electrons flow. It rolled for the better part of the 15 minute break going back and forth like a good tennis match, when game/set/match point was delievered:
"Prove to me that an electron exsists." - religious sailor studying to be an AT
"They exsist cause science says they do." - AT2 instructor
"Put one in my hand." - student/sailor
"I can't but I can show you a slide from...." - instructor
"That is what science wants you to believe they look like."
"Right cause that is taken from an electron microsco..."
"That is what science wants you to believe"
"But..."
"It is no different then what my religious text says on how the world is, your text book is based on the 'belief' that this is how one person thought an electron looks like and seems to operate under these principles. Of which some of it has been proven by math, not real well, but close enough for the W.A.G. No one has seen one up close, no one has actually held one, no one has actually followed them like we have with animals. They have only held what has been mass sum of various electrons have become. Again no different then what one person writing one portion of my book has said. So until you can prove to me that an electron exists and physically show me what one looks like then I will discount your 'theory' for as long as you put mine down. However if your willing to let me push my 'magic button' on how the world operates then to understand how to do my job I will push your 'magic button' of electron theory. "

USAF Mike said...

To be clear...I'm as opposed to the whole South Park had to edit their episodes/Danish cartoons episode as any of you, if not even more so.  Like I said below, I'm a libertarian, and I believe in absolute free expression.  As far as I'm concerned, you should be just as able to show a picture of Mohammed nailing a 9 year old as you should be able to douse a crucifix in urine...or do anything else to anyone else's sacred cows.

That said, apologies for the emoting, but I just don't see it the same way you guys do, as a vast worldwide Muslim conspiracy to deprive us of our freedoms/turn us all into Muslims/execute all the infidels/whatever.  I do, however, see an issue in this country with intolerance of Muslims; not on the NYC issue necessarily, but nationwide.

Here's a bit from Colbert that expresses my concerns pretty well: http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/343735/august-12-2010/the-word---weapon-of-mass-construction

"Yeah, build it somewhere else...just not California, Wisconsin, or Murfreesboro, Tennessee."

"Permits should not be granted to build one more Mosque in the United States of America."

Southern Air Pirate said...

Religion has given people hope. Science has taken hope and given it. Religion for all its evil has promised a better life on the other side if one accepts their belief system. Science has offered ways to destroy the world and not at all offered a better life. There have been plenty of times science has offered a cure that has been just as deadly as the disease. As to global warming showing science in action. I grew up in the 1980's where science wasn't talking about global warming, but rather about another ice age; simply cause science had shown that our climate goes in a circular fashion. We were in a minor heat wave and they were expecting another major ice age. Before that my father grew up in the fifties where science was under the belief that we would ultimately have control of the weather by this decade, but if not then more then likely we wouldn't have to worry that much cause there would be 1 person per square inch of livable land and only the poor would be living on the planet while the rest were living in space. How is that working out? I don't remember hearing about a weather dominator in anyone's country, let alone the population boom hasn't seemed to happen cause science has said that itself was wrong with the regards to certain pesticides and now malaria is running rapid in places where it was managed only 40yrs ago. 
There are people asking questions about the ideas and science beling floated and those people are being shouted down as heathens and hertics all the name of "science" and the all precious science dollar.
If we get rid of Carbon Dioxide then how will the trees survive? Science has told me that CO2 is needed for tree (and plant) growth. So how will the trees and plants grow if we get ride of CO2? Also science seems to say if we have too much O2 in the air then things start to grow too big, I can't remember the correct term for the period, but basically skeeters the size of Condors and Ants the size of Great Dane dogs.
As to the fossil fuels thing, sure lets get rid of fossil fuels, how will we effectively move large heavy cargos from point a to point b? Remember any engine you design will need to run on fossil fuels, wait what? Oh that is right you need to lube the engine with oil and bio-oil just isn't completley cutting it in that field. So fossil fuel oil will be required. Synthenics are great, but they are still made with a minor bit of fossil fuel oil.
OH and science has condemned my father to danger for the rest of his life, cause he is allergic to pencillian cause since said it was a cure all when he was growning up. Now with some of the super bugs on the market and they only seem to be reacting only to pencillian based drugs, well god help the scientist when I find him if my father gets sick from one of these super bugs.

USAF Mike said...

This might be (ir)relevant to the conversation...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVELhUyLZGk

USAF Mike said...

Do you even have to ask?  Meatballs!

No Gods Allowed said...

The goal isn't to eliminate all carbon dioxide...just the overage that's affecting climate. As for your dad I guess he has two choices: he can pray to an invisible man to cure him the next time he gets sick or he can use one of the many penicillin alternatives that have been developed since so many bacteria have evolved immunity to it. Funny how god is supposed to be so all powerful yet when you get sick you run to the MRI machines and such that are based on science rather than just wishing to a sky wizard to get better. I think on an unconscious level people realize religion is bs.

No Gods Allowed said...

That's a very childlike view of science. The scientist would say that the same theories that describe what an electron looks like are also predictive. They can predict new phenomena based on current understanding. Religion is static and regressive and can't do that. More concretely though our understanding of an electron is helps make TVs, computers, digital watches all things the naive student can hold.

The student's attitude would be cute in a five year old. An adult should know better. This is the kind of ignorance that religion creates.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

"<span>Shows science in action."</span>

Wow.  Here I was thinking the global warming debate was a politically-driven anti-capitalist shill from the same people who brought you malignant socialism, but now embraced as a way to force prosperous countries (which ours used to be when we were capitalist) to follow a pseudo-scientific mandate to give the hard-earned wealth of its citizens to a collection of Third-World ne'er-do-wells who will hate us even more for the gesture. 

The religion of global warming encompasses the most corrosive of the youth brainwashing from the days of the Soviet state.  And its demigod Al Gore lives like the old Party elite in his massive dacha, consuming whatever he pleases in amounts that could support a whole village, all the while lecturing constantly about our moral obligation to be "green".

You, sir, are either an instigator or a dupe of such nonsense.  The amount of carbon dioxide (along with the other infamous "greenhouse gases") from Mt St Helens, Pinatubo, and the recent Icelandic eruptions is many hundreds of times the quantity caused by mankind since he first sought to use fire. 

Science flies us to the moon, with permission of the Almighty.  Man flies us into buildings.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

What was the old cartoon, Byron?

"God is dead!"  -Nietzche

"Nietzche is dead."  -God

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span>You make no distinction between religion and faith, condemning both.  If you cannot see the difference between the two, and how one can be twisted for evil purpose but the other is the source of some of Man's greatest strength, then you haven't the logic to make your argument.
</span>

Southern Air Pirate said...

Why is it a simplistic take on electron theory?
The math for electron flow inludes the basic algebraic expression of E=IR. However in a simple circuit when built the math says that for example E is equal to 12V, I is equal to 5 amps, and 2.4 ohm resistor (the equivlant of a 60w light bulb). However when you build said circuit in real life you can have variations of half a volt more or less on the battery, amperage running up or down up to one to two volts, and finally resistance some times being between 2 ohms up to 3.4 ohms. What is then used to explain away the math is that it can't factor in the impurities that come in from our manufacturing of the copper wire, the battery, and even the 60w light bulb, let alone we can't physically design a meter that can accurately measure the electron flow in that circuit. However, science has said that math is infalluable, so then doing the math to understand what is going on in the design of a circuit is no more a WAG then belief in intelligence design or that there is a giant spagehtti monster controlling us. The math in electron theory, just like any other theory gets us close enough to understand and build circuits, achieve VLSI, produce everything you just mentioned; yet it is "wrong" when we view it under controlled physical conditions. The same is true with regards to radio wave propagation, photon theorms, etc. The mathmatics says it should work a certain way, and yet when observed in the physical world it doesn't exactly work that way. Science is split on hows and whys some of that works that way on one hand and then not work under the same situtation. Trying to recall some of my own classroom time, I think understanding why ELF and EHF propagation with certain antenna shapes into the ionsphere will get bounced around the world, mean while VLF and some others with the same antenna can actually leave the ionsphere; lead to a full class period discussion while in college about the metaphysical understandings of physics. Finally our instructor who had basically lost control of the class from one of the students asking for a "why does it work this way?" had to resort to the classic fall back of "just push the 'I believe button' and lets move one". All I am asking is don't disparage those who want to believe in religion as ignorant bigots. Some of the biggest classically and Socratetic trained westeren sciencists were also religious scholars. They followed thier science in an attempt to prove the Bible as truth.

No Gods Allowed said...

Sounds like you had a crappy professor. Sounds like you needed someone who understood quantum electrodynamics.

No Gods Allowed said...

I'm sure rush limbaugh told you that statistic about volcanic eruptions but it simply isn't true.

Southern Air Pirate said...

See you miss the point. He wouldn't have to worry if science didn't say that Pencillian was the pancea drug cure all in the late 40's to mid 60's. We now have super bugs cause science has said it has "cured" a bacterium with a poision only to see the bacterium evolve a resistance to it. So what happens when some of the Pencillian replacements start to not work or thier side effects are worst then the diseases?
As to what is "normal" with regards to CO2. My biggest question is, what is "normal"? What is the baseline that our climate is supposed to operate at? We don't know, simply cause most of our records are inaccurate and incomplete. Don't even start saying "but ice cores say..."; ice cores say what we had at a certain point back in time true. However, we also are only getting a 3/4 inch view of the earth's climate that far back. We don't know if the planet was hit by outer space debries such as comets or asteriods (which science keeps saying is around the corner any moment just need more $$ to find it), or that volcanoes detonating like Kratoa, Mt. St. Helens, Mt. Pinatubo, Mt. Kilauea. We don't have an accurate view of absoutely nothing happening just sun coming down and plants converting CO2 back into O2. On top of that although we have tempature readings going back at a minium of two centuries, we have no idea whether they are accurate as they are reported. Some of these temps and reports could have come from some one who was too lazy to get out of bed on a "oh god colder then a witches teat in an iron brassire" day; and they didn't feel like trompsing through miles of snow/heat/rain/sleet/etc to get to a weather reporting station. Lets add on the fact that science is "cheating" with its math since it has to statiscally factor out WAG's and inaccurate reporting for a region because until the last 50yrs we have had reporting stations in places like the middle of the oceans, middle of the African and South American continents, and portions of the Eurasian Steppe between the Urals, Himalayians, and Irthusk Pennusila. So except for spot reporting from those regions over a period of wildly seperate time frames, the math has to be fudged to give it a baseline. But wait, science tells me that data points that far seperate (some places as much as 30yrs differences) aren't to be factored into the forumlas and that math is infalliable. Which is it?

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Uhh, no.  It IS true.  Because the original concern was that we would go into a decades-long period of large holes in the ozone.  Which was our fault, too.  Because of hairspray and deodorant.  Except some time later we realized we were mistaken and the 'holes" in the ozone had always been there, and did not remain static.  But the "we were wrong" part was not broadcast nearly as long and loudly as the original near-panic caused by our non-political and completely objective environmental movement. 

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Do tell, perfesser.  A bit arrogant for someone who considers himself rational, aren't we?

Southern Air Pirate said...

When I was going for a degree on electronics theory and electronics repair there was no need to delve any deeper in the world of physics beyond understanding the basics of Newtonian Motion and some of the math that is behind it, then how that math releates into how a motor converts chemical/mechanical energy into electrical energy and how a generator converters the electrical energy back into mechanical energy. Diving deeper into quantum physics really isn't needed to understand why we remove a busted IC from a circuit board on an weather radar mounted in a 737, and its replacement will then help that radar project radio waves into clouds to present an image on a scope so that the pilots can dodge turblance. Nor will understanding quantum physics help better in troubleshooting why due to poorly coded a GPS when it crosses the international date line all of a sudden projects itself from the middle of the Pacific Ocean to over the Seregati plain. Quantum Mechanics also will not successfully explain why at 15 minutes past a catapult shot, the navigation computer in a specific airplane side number and its hard drives dump every time the pilot applies postive G's to an airplane during the climb out. Only that it will take some serious logical troubleshooting to find that someone failed to properely wire/solder something on either the jet or the component. Knowledge is important, however too much knowledge can also be useless if not applicable to the situtation. That is why I haven't gone back to school for my masters in electrical theory. Too much fluff and to a point I am willing to accept the all important big red button that says "I believe" simply cause deleving too deep into something sometimes only confuses more then it helps to explain.

Southern Air Pirate said...

Sorry CDR, but all this thread belongs to us. If you want it back you will need to pay up out enough $$ to buy me a CVN-78, DDG-1000, LCS, and all the OpTar/TAD to go to all the required and unrequired Diversity meetings for the next four years. And if you don't then I will claim your racist against all Southern Air Pirates. BUWAAHHHH!



;)

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Don't tempt him.  He will get Maxine Waters to pay your ransom with tax dollars. 

Southern Air Pirate said...

Perfect! It can all be laundered properly through her bank! I mean her husbands bank. I mean her husbands friend's bank, which has no connection to her at all.
Remember I am a pirate I care not where the money comes from. Just as long as I can swim through it all like Scrooge McDuck! ;)

Wharf Rat said...

Libertarian - okay, I'll give you that.  'They don't have to take away our freedoms if we do it ourselves because we're in fear of them'   Uh, this isn't about being in fear.  That is getting off point.  Like everyone is saying here, it's all about sticking it in our eye.  Anyone of decent character wouldn't even try this.  That goes to motive.  And just because someone has a right to do something, doesn't make it right.  They're using our freedoms to take freedoms (eventually) away.

If you can't see this -makes me wonder if you're really a USAF vet.

Wharf Rat said...

Mr. T -I want one too.  Heard you were buying.

Redeye80 said...

Good discussions.  Barry has a point but it truely is just a snub at the US.  I can understand Barry since he is one of them.  I am not getting Bloomberg on this.

Any case, I wouldn't what to live near the place.  It will be a target!  BTW, I looking to move away from any large US population center as I feel, they are targets for our peace loving friends.

I have friends who have security responsibilities at thier place worship.  More weapons at a place of worship is nothing new.

I am surprised no one here is giving Barry a mouth full on the Heisman he pulled on the "wisdom" of the decision.

Susan Katz Keating said...

This mosque project boggles the mind. It's not a bridge to peace; it's a provocation. And a dangerous one, at that.

Curtis said...

mostly because they just aren't there.  they didn't used to fly at night either.

ewok40k said...

Well, we should remeber Puritans of the Mayflower were pretty much the same - live by the Holy Book, burn the witch and make women wear decent , hair-covering cloth. And yeah, convert the heathen indigenous by fire and sword.
There is an intersesting conundrum in democracy, namely what amount of freedom can be given to those who want that freedom destroyed?
So far the best answer is, use the law. If terrorist propaganda is preached there, arrest the imam, try him according to the laws, confiscate the whole building.
There are one thing that we should notice - terror has not been chosen as a weapon by moslim radicals, it was only weapon left to them after elites embraced western values, and men on the street were increasingly idefferent and laicised. They could not create armies they dreamt of, because they couldnt capture states. It is a tactic borne of desperation. They are losing fight against modernisation, and this has driven them mad.
I believe in final success of democracy in this long war, as it has won the previous against communism. Lets see even now: there was no major attack on US soil since 9/11, and AQ is down to sending untrained radicalised misfits instead of organised attacks. US didnt slip into police state either, as critics of Bush have preached.
Democracy in the long run has 3 great advantages:
1. Innovativeness - it brings out the full potential of science, not bound by ideology or religion.
2. Happiness - it was US that first have written the law to pursue personal happiness into their laws. This alone has been perhaps the most astonishing achievement of the Independence Declaration. This has been corenrstone of appeal of western ideas to people worldwide.
3. Self-correction. No other system has a better record of dealing with problem issues, be it labor, gender, race or ecology.

cdrsalamander said...

E40,
Shipmate, you are guilty of one of the most intellectually dangerous logic traps.  You have to judge a person/society by the times in which they lived.  The Pilgrims landed here in 1620.  You cannot judge them by 21st Century standards.

By using that logic, King of Poland John III Sobieski (seige of Vienna 1683) is a war criminal and horrific abuser of his own soldiers and the prisoners he took. He made Slobodan Milosevic look like a nun.

See, you can't do that.

Outlaw Mike said...

ewok, the CDR's right.

That said... I think... that if I were an American, and this thing goes through, I think I might be willing to violently oppose the building of that monstrosity. Violently as in violence. At some point you have to abandon the crap. You have to see it as it is. A hostile move in an ongoing war.

LT B said...

Well, it's ONLY cool if your flying car has Corrrrrinnnthian Leatherrrr!  ;)

LT B said...

Now, on the back of a napkin, model the feedback mechanisms, cloud formations, increased uptake of CO2 by plants, and phytoplankton due to the increased partial pressure of CO2.  Then, calculate the increased growth of phytoplankton as a sink, while keeping in the calculation the use of Iron, Nitrogen, Phosphate, etc.  But wait, through more heating, an increase of H2O is released into the atmosphere.  Holy Crap!  that IS the most important greenhouse gas.  But wait, there's more!  Now more clouds are formed.  More rain falls, so while they help trap greenhouse gas, they also have a higher albedo thus reflectnig more UV and other radiation back.  This produces less longwave return radiation as it does not get converted on the ground.  And the amount of insolation provided and produced is not constant either.  See?  The science is NOT set in stone.  If you think research isn't driven by money, and the political whims of the guvmnt, especially this one http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/16/issa-hits-obama-admin-for-extensive-use-of-%E2%80%98propaganda%E2%80%99-to-boost-health-care-other-priorities/ who uses PR to sway public thought and to drive their agenda, you would be incorrect.  NSF has a finite pot of money and if they are interested in global warming, harmful algal blooms, etc, they will drive the thought through their funding ability.  BTW, compare animal farts, the "damage" termites do to Carbon sequestering or the outgassing from volcanos to the CO2 output from humans on the back of an envelope.  You just might be astounded. 

Grumpy Old Ham said...

Wow, this thread sure took off...what the heck, it's Monday and my back is sore from trying to fix my truck over the weekend, so why not throw a little more gas on the flames...

To paraphrase Dr. Ian Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) from Jurassic Park:  "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Militant/"in your face" anything pisses me off:  atheists, Muslims, anti-DADT/"We're here, we're queer", greenies, you name it.  None of 'em seem to understand that being "in your face" turns off as many people as it converts.  "You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone" is what liberty is supposed to be all about.

The proposed "Islamic Center" is supposed to "increase cross-cultural understanding", or so one of the sales pitches claims.  The continued push to build, in the face of obvious opposition from the people who are, theoretically, the target audience, tells me there is apparently another agenda in play.

I think Mr. Gutfield has a grand idea; moreover, as someone here or another blog pointed out, "Just how much union labor do they think is going to be willing to work on that job site?"

Grumpy Old Ham said...

Don't forget you can also freeze some of the money in William Jefferson's freezer, it keeps longer that way.

ewok40k said...

Oh well, you really dont know the realities of the pre-partitions Commonwealth - it was amongst the most tolerant countries. Jews flocked there for a reason, despite feverish Jesuit propaganda there were strong Calvinist and Luteran churches, and of course the vast Orthodox community in the East. There were even Polish Tartars, some even advanced into nobility!
And one thing most leadership men of those times were not guilty, was massacring defenceless prisoners - because with vast land to colonize, serfs vere valuable. Heck even Tartars were famous for taking lots of slaves to the markets of Istambul. Massacres of religious fervor wer much more common in the religious fervor of the Western Europe. St.Bartholems night, anyone?

LT B said...

I heard on the radio, the Unions are willing to work on it and there is a rank and file swell to not work on it despite what the Union pushes.  We shall see how that all works out. 

Deeg said...

It should be noted that:
1. There has been a mosque closer to the Towers location than the proposed Cordoba house since before the Towers were open.
2. The Caliphate in Spain was the most religiously tolerant domain in Europe during it's time.
3. New York is a crowded, living city, not a museum.
4. It's the business of New Yorkers what they want to let be zoned in their neighborhoods. They've already got shops, restaurants, and places of worship in that neighborhood.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

It should be noted that:

1. Manassas was just a farmer's field until two Civil War battles made it hallowed ground.
2. The Caliphate in Spain represents Islamic Supremacy against the West and Christianity.
3. Ground Zero is not simply a street corner where some renovation has been done.
4. If it were the neighborhood New Yorkers who accepted it, and not councils bending immediately to political pressure to give the Islamofascists whatever they wanted, they would have said so.  But they are pissed, too.

Old NFO said...

<p><span>Islam is the most intolerant of all religions.  There is not a single Moslem majority country in which non-Moslems can freely worship and live.  The only one in recent history was Lebanon, but the Moslems have now all but driven the Christians out.  Many European cities now have large areas where it is unsafe for non-Moslems, especially women, to go.  Islamic cultural standards are now being forced on Northern Europeans as menus, school curriculum, entertainment and even banking standards are being changed to suit a very vocal, and often violent, minority.  Insulting Islam can get you killed, and what constitutes an insult is up to them.  They, however, are under no such threat and may freely screech, threaten and intimidate.  All under the protection of people saying the same things as USAF Mike.   </span>
</p><p><span>   </span>Once a critical mass of Moslems is reached they begin to demand that the society change to suit Islam.  Islam does not change to suit the society.  That has been the case in every European country that has allowed large number of Moslems to immigrate.   
</p><p><span>   </span>USAF Mike, and others like him, seem determined to not see that Islam is completely incompatible with Western society and a republican form of government.  Islam demands that it be preeminent in all areas of life.  Anything else is an insult to Islam.  According to the Koran and the hadiths there can be no government outside of Islam.  There can be no justice system outside of Islam.  There can be no education outside of Islam.  There can be no cultural or social activities outside of Islam.  Islam is the very definition of a totalitarian theocracy. 
</p><p><span>   </span>Perhaps USAF Mike is comfortable throwing out the welcome mat to a group that is existentially hostile to tolerance and democratic values.  To a group whose holy book commands them to kill and/or subdue all non-Moslems.  To a group that refuses to condemn the very worst of terrorists and, in fact, blames America for the 911 attack.   
</p><p> 
</p>

Old NFO said...

<p><span>I consider the proposed mosque as the equivalent of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.  It was built on top of the most holy site of the Jews.  It was put on top of the Temple Mount for a reason.  So the the Jews would be subdued and feel themselves subdued.  The Cordoba Mosque will serve the same purpose. </span>
</p>

Old NFO said...

On the other hand, perhaps we should follow the advise of <span>Greg Gutfeld.  Wait for the Mosque to be built and then put an Islamic gay bar next door.  Perhaps an Italian deli featuring pork sausages on the other side and a Jewish cultural center across the street.  Hey, those Moslems are all about tolerance?  Let's just test that theory.</span>

Ex - LN1 said...

OK, CDR, as probably one of the only people here that worked a scant coupla blocks from the WTC on 9/11 (and, upon the collapse of the first tower was only yards away on account of the forced evacuation- leading me to think I was done for when enveloped in the ensuing ash cloud...) this issue has a special resonance for me.

I am pretty offended by it. I am also offended by the plethora of "halal" food carts that have sprung up in NYC the last few years  - lemme tell you - they DID NOT EXIST  pre 9/11.

But we really have only ourselves to blame - if this is indeed a clash of civilizations as Prof Huntington says then on Sept 12 Mecca and Medina should have been reduced to glass - period - instead we got Bush's blather about the "religion of peace" combined with a pointless waste of life and treasure in half-hearted, "culturally sensitive" land wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And we are STILL in thrall to the Saudis (the well-spring of Wahabbist poison) on account of our oil addiction. And dont even get me started about the flim flam man "Sportin' Life" inhabitant of the White House today

We should have quarantined the islamic world - an absolute ban on immigration from
the ummah.  And it would have been perfectly legal.

Instead, now we have the tempest about opening a very provacatively named mosque.  Well, sorry, but this country missed the boat and really can't bitch at this point - zoning laws are local, not federal.  And from what I hear the unions (say what u will about featherbedding,etc.) will be able to stonewall this job for decades - the proposed site is a dump. I bet this thing never opens.

ewok40k said...

I'd add to the glass Necca and Medina a big writing (in Arabic!)  done with ABL in the glass:
"God isnt with you because he hates idiots!" (Hat tip to Sergio Leone...)
Alas, we live in a different world. Maybe it will take AQ detonating nuke on US soil, but I doubt they can pull it off now they have been scattered to the many hellholes of Africa etc. Iran is another matter... but there we have state to retaliate on.

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