Tuesday, August 03, 2010

Things there should be an UCMJ offense for ...


1. Wearing NWU on the USS CONSTITUTION.
2. Smiling while at attention, in formation, when receiving an award on the USS CONSTITUTION.

That is my grumpy retired dude moment of the day. Oh, and isn't there supposed to be a "the uniform for the award's formation will be XXXXXX" posted somewhere like the Plan of the Day or sump'n? Congrats to all anyway.

Hey, at least the civilian is wearing a command ball cap.

124 comments:

Eric Palmer said...

Yeah you are probably right. And well too, congrats to the award winners. 

Byron said...

Sure that "civilian" isn't a mess crank, er, culinary specialist (hack, cough)?

Salty Gator said...

Let's take it a step further:  I thought the MCPON and CNO both ruled that ball caps are NEVER to be worn with the NWU unless you are standing a bridge watch underway???

JimmyMac said...

And what Navy do you think the USS CONSTITUTION is a part of?  Any ship that boasts a chain-of-command that goes directly from her Commanding Officer to the E-Ring ain't in my Navy! 

DM05 said...

Unsat all around including NWU. And grumpy retired dudes are entitled.

Spade said...

Only three people in that formation look good. Only two look like sailors.

Retired Master Chief said...

I'm not a grumpy old dude, 4 years retired at 25 years and this comes as no surprise to me. In 2003 I checked into a training command as the SEA where sitting down for quarters was normal. It took a long discussion with the CO to get that policy changed. Today's Navy is a direct reflection of today's leadership. We have more officers and enlisted mingling with one another than we have Chief Petty Officers actually taking charge and being leaders. Today's Pentagon leadership is a joke as we focus more on diversity than we do the molding of our junior Sailors. 

AW1 Tim said...

Okay... riddle me this, then, Batman: If the Navy is allowing women to wear crackerjacks, why can't they also wear the dixie cup hat instead of that goofy cover they make women wear?

John said...

This just screams out for a remake of the old Navy recruiting poster featuring a sailor and son looking at USS Constitution. 

http://www.cnrc.navy.mil/chicago/htm/Heritage-Web.gif

I can see people lining up at recruiting offices for a chance to serve wearing NWU.

I won't even think about the possibilities for showing off our diverseness...

ewok40k said...

what a horrible mix-and-match of uniforms (uniforms are meant to be , err... uniform?)

seattlefire said...

My guess is the civilian is the ship's ombudsman or perhaps a local school teacher and vetran that has sought to educate his students on US history and takes them on regualr tours of the Constitution.  Or maybe the civilian is a skilled woodworker who did some restoration work on the ship.  Could also be a member of the local Navy League being honored.  There is the possibility he is a parent of the Sailor he is standing next to and helped the CO pin on an award.   

Byron said...

Ahem... grey pants...white golf shirt.... ships ballcap= mess crank

Therapist1 said...

It was exactly what I was thinking as well.  Those uniforms are horrible!!!!  Why in God's name would you design a camo uniform that was blue?  Where is it supposed to be used, and does it not make you stand out and therefore a target if used in a hostile environment?  That thing is a waste of taxpayer money!

Larry Sheldon said...

Seems like we were not allowed to wear dungarees topside in port except under certain restricted circumstances.

And I don't remember ever seeing dungarees or fatigues off-base.  Ever.

MR T's Haircut said...

<span>Uniformity...so we all look the same.. Diversity.. so we highlight our differences....  um I am confused Navigator.. which course you want me to plot and what should I ring up for engineering??</span>

cdrsalamander said...

Sigh.

SNAnonymous said...

I thought so as well.  So much for the whole "uniform" thing.

YNSN said...

I sh*t you not...

I've seen a Sailor wearing the NWU in AFG.  None of the other branches get why we wear the NWU either... Everyone thinks the same thing, "Do you wear water colored camo so when you fall in you can't be found?"

And yes, the 5050 for any ceremony stipulates what the uniform will be.   If you're doing off the cuff ceremonies and don't want to burden the crew... Don't let the PAO snap pictures. 

As I've been away from the Fleet for a while now... I though Command ballcaps were not authorized with the NWU?

Byron said...

Said to Ugly Chief son-in-law first time he came by the house wearing his NWU: "Dude, when did you join the Air Farce?" I won't repeat what he said to me :)

LBG said...

Only underway. 

LT B said...

Dude, we ARE the Air Force.  We have crapped away our traditions and service "persona."  I think the ethos was the death knell.  Over 230 years and we need an ethos w/ catchy buzz words.  Bull$h!t Bingo is more like it. 

SCPO said...

Do as I say not as I do Numbnuts! :)

AW1 Tim said...

Square in the black, el-tee. Square in the black.

Salty Gator said...

Wait a minute, did I just "like" someone calling me numbnuts?!

sid said...

Along with those silly NWU's...Check out how ridiculous the denuded top hamper of the old girl looks....

Another view

Far cry from even a few years ago.

And a sad metaphor for the current state of the USN.

Casey Tompkins said...

Sid, my older brother built the venerable 1/96 Revell model back in the late 60s, so I knew something was wrong. Didn't realize how much they had butchered the old girl until your third shot gave me a compare & contrast.

That's just wrong.

If anyone's interested, Revell is still selling that model, and it's carried on Amazon. Sucker builds up to 3 feet long.

LT W said...

Sid,
You do realize she's in the process of being re-rigged, don't you?  She's not butchered, in fact her rig is being improved - and by that I mean brought back to original standards so she functions as well as she looks.

LT W

JAV said...

Only thing worse is this-take note of the ranks...

sid said...

How long has it taken LT W?

And givin the current fiscal woes, how much longer will it take?

Of course, this ain't the first time she has looked bad.

Its interesting that was a time when the USN was undergoing significant cultural and organizational change as well.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

The chubby little Colonel with her hands in her pockets kills me.  She has more chins that a Hong Kong phone book. 

SCPO said...

Are you talking about the COL. with her hands in both pockets or the fact that she is fat as a cow? 

SCPO said...

Oh....and the fact that one of the 2 stars as on a USMC cover?  

cdrsalamander said...

I can never see that picture too many times.

USAF Mike said...

We don't claim her.  She's Guard.

She's also wearing pin on rank insignia on her collar, which isn't authorized, so she's just all sorts of fucked up.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span>That's a YES.  And no, Marines haven't worn insignia on their covers since the late 80s.  So that is likely USN.</span>

USAF Mike said...

I think my personal favorite is the Chief with the dayglo ABU...I never get tired of seeing those, because it just reminds me of the complete charlie-foxtrot that was the procurement of the ABU.

C-dore 14 said...

The PTSD kicks in every time I see this picture.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Also, how the hell is it that the back "rank" is facing a full ninety degrees to the left of the direction of the fat Colonel?

sid said...

That look on her face...How did I wake up HERE?!?!?!...

Is just. Magnificent.

C-dore 14 said...

According to the photo's caption on their website the guy in the ball cap and polo shirt is a CS3 (a cook) not a civilian.

Byron, as I remember it, the term "mess crank" was a bastardization of the term "mess cook" referring to non-rated persons assigned to temporary duties in the galley, not to designated/rated cooks, bakers, etc.  BTW, I never heard the term before the late 80s.

Retired Now said...

On all our money coins is,  " E PLURIBUS UNUN".

Out of plurality/diversity,  comes Unity !!

We Americans are all different; however we are all unified in common goals (constitution +laws).

UNIVERSITY = we go to school to obtain Unity from our Diversity.

Most kids think it translates to something else entirely.

cdrsalamander said...

Sigh again.

XBradTC said...

Even as an Army guy, I've tried to respect you Navy pukes. Your NWU isn't making that already herculean task any easier.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Stu,

Thursdays are good for some extra BP meds.....

Steeljaw said...

"E Pluribus Unum" = "Out of Many, One"

Grotopotamus said...

Curious... I dug up the following from a NWU FAQ I found online (SWOS site). Sorry for the lengthy cut/paste (and a big WTF for point 9):

<p><span>7. Can I wear my command ball cap with the NWU?</span>
</p><p><span>Yes, if your CO allows it. Officially, the only authorized headgear are the eight-point cover and the watch cap during cold weather. But your CO can authorize the ball cap onboard ship, and that authority usually extends to the pier area around your ship. When you're away from your command (commuting or on another part of the base), only the eight-point can be worn - unless your regional commander has authorized the watch cap.</span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>*** Ball Caps will not be authorized at SWOS ***</span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>8. When can I wear coveralls?</span>
</p><p><span>The NWU is the primary working uniform ashore and an authorized working uniform while underway. If you wear coveralls aboard ship, you will continue to do so unless otherwise directed by your CO or OIC. If you wear a working uniform off the ship, it will now be the NWU.</span>
</p><p><span></span></p>

Grotopotamus said...

<span><span>9. What about sailors who work on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan, are assigned to Navy Expeditionary Combat Command, work on a flight deck or are in any other unit that requires woodland or desert cammies?</span></span>
<p><span>Sailors involved in tactical situations or special work environments - the war zones, flight decks, expeditionary units, etc. - will wear what they always wear.</span>
</p><p><span>However, sources say some sailors, such as masters-at-arms guarding gates and patrolling installations, will have to wear the NWU. The Navy has not published a list of such situations. Officials from NECC have said they will continue to wear legacy cammies at all their commands and will not wear the NWU when they are not deployed. But, sailors and officers still have to have an NWU in their sea bags by Dec. 31, 2010, just like everyone else. That's because woodland or desert cammies remain organizational clothing, issued by commands, and not an official Navy uniform.</span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>10. I work in an engineering space on my ship. Will I wear the NWU while on duty?</span>
</p><p><span>That, too, is up to your CO. Officials say the uniform can work in engineering spaces, and in those environments you can remove the outer shirt and un-blouse the pants. However, if you wear coveralls, chances are you will be able to continue to do so.</span></p>

UltimaRatioRegis said...

"pants"?  F*ckin' PANTS? 

To quote the immortal Gunny Jack Smith, 3rd Recruit Training Battalion Drill Instructor, "They're TROUSERS, sonny!  If I hear you call them PANTS ever again, I will put my foot so far up your a** it will look like you're wearing a BOOT HAT!"

Retired Now said...

Out of Many citizens,  all different, comes One overall goal:  preserve our America.

We all maintain our many different personalities and sub-cultures, yet we are united in our one strong goal to maintain our wonderful country.

We are all different,  and yet unified ....    example:

We are Italian Americans by culture, yet united as Americans.

sid said...

I'm betting the sailor who can't quit smiling in ranks is the type that makes a "racket' when playing tennis....

Just sayin'

Quartermaster said...

For Constitution, dress the sailors in period costume. For the rest of the Navy, just bring back Dungarees and Blue Chambray shirts. Cammo can be worn by Seabees and those assigned to shore combat billets in a war zone. Otherwise, the regular uniform of Wash khaki for E-7 and above, and Dungarees and Blue Chambray should apply. That would be my first order as CNO. Jus micro-seconds before I order the hanging of all the diversity Zampolits.

Come to think of it, I might reverse the order of that. But they would issued very close in time.

USAF Mike said...

No argument from me on this one.  We've had an identity crisis for the entire 60 years we've been in existence...you guys have been around for 230, you don't have an excuse.

cdrsalamander said...

Ummm ...not real funny.  Strike 1.

SCPO said...

Don't let the hatch hit you in the ass on the way out! :)  

MR T's Haircut said...

yet the SeaBees wear wood cammo and brown boots

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Note to Air Force:

Never promote a female LtCol who looks like she just swallowed another female LtCol.....

sid said...

Here are some period uniforms...

And, here is an interesting tidbit from NHC.

The American Revolutionary sailor fared little better. He participated in a Navy that was built from scratch. Meager funds and the scarcity of a manufacturing complex concentrated attention on procuring ships and ammunition. There was no money for uniforms...Thus, naval uniforms under these parsimonious conditions were non-descript, consisting of pantaloons often tied at the knee or knee breeches, a jumper or shirt, neckerchief, short waisted jacket and low crowned hats. The short trousers were practical so as not to interfere with a man’s work in the rigging of his ship. Most sailors went barefoot. A kerchief or bandana was worn either as a sweat band or as a simple closure for the collar. Unfortunately there are no records that support the persistent myth that the black kerchief represents a sing of mourning for Nelson’s demise. The sailor’s kerchief predates his death by hundreds of years and evolved as a functional piece of garb. Nelsonian legends had nothing to do with the accoutrements which developed out of necessity, rank identification, or fashion embellishments.



The War of 1812 caught America in a dilapidated state of military readiness. However, the courage and tenacity of the Navy was impressive and their victories, especially in view of the massive land defeats, cause a new surge of pride in naval matters. There was little overall progress on uniforms during the war due to the haste in which crews were assembled and lack of adequate funding. However, the postwar years saw a resurgence of interest in naval matters and the government began to have more of an interest in its development. Not only had the Navy earned a fine reputation but it was beginning to build a cadre of professionals, both officer and enlisted who elected to remain in service. These positive feelings resulted in the first attempt at a prescribed uniform in 1817. Through government procurement winter and summer uniforms were provided. The winter uniform consisted of a blue jacket and trousers, red vest with yellow buttons and a black hat.

DeltaBravo said...

That's cuz Seabees are awesome, MTH.

Retired Now said...

Clearly the E PLURIBUS UNUM has a deeper meaning than just translating it.   It's so important that it's on all our money.    It mean more than just "out of many, one".    Out of many ___ what ?   Out of many coins, one _____ dollar ?    

The point is that the many different people that comprise our great country,  their diversity remains, but the goal is unity in our American principles.    Diverse peoples make up our 50 states, but out of this diverse plurality of peoples, our country is united with one overall, ultimate set of American principles.    Diversity remains yet Unity is overriding.   Just like our institutes of higher learning:   students are from diverse backgrounds, yet united in purpose for education and knowledge.   University = unity and diversity.    Unity being the higher of the two.

Salty Gator said...

dude none of us would ever survive the fashion police.  The Navy wears khaki with black shoes.  The Marines wear black with blue as their dress uniform...with a red stripe none the less.  The army wears their digital cammie uniform to everything from their military ball to their kid's ballet recital to the battle of al Anbar.  The Air Force is in Tiger Stripes.  To quote good morning vietnam, "It's kind of a Hefner thing.  It says I can fight, or I can sit around all day.  Or in the evening, throw on some pearls and it's ready for formal wear!"

DeltaBravo said...

"The army wears their digital cammie uniform to everything from their military ball to their kid's ballet recital to the battle of al Anbar.'

Best funny of the day!  hahahaha!

Casey Tompkins said...

Well! That's a relief. :)

Casey Tompkins said...

<span>That would be my first order as CNO. Jus micro-seconds before I order the hanging of all the diversity Zampolits. 
 
Come to think of it, I might reverse the order of that. </span>


Ya had me worried there, for a second, QM.

bc said...

ASOFU, or JASOFU.  Either way, it's in play.  No shortage of craziness to which it may be broadly applied.  Thanks!

cdrsalamander said...

Can we stop with the hanging talk ... I know it is hyperbole and all ... but really.  Ya'll creep'n me out.

sid said...

We all have to behave if we have a chance of hangin on the porch...

(Of course, I always was a "redstripe" kinda guy) O:-)

With that in mind...

I have a new moniker:

"DIVERSINUTZ"

DG said...

It looks like a good combination. Dump the camo cover and go with command ballcaps for the NWU.

DG said...

Um, the Marines say that about all of our uniforms. Usually, they don't say it to our faces, because they're trying to be nice.

Redeye80 said...

I rather follow "old" school traditions: keel haul, then hang from the highest yardarm.

DeltaBravo said...

yeah, what are we all?  Turks or something?  (reminds me of a story Papa Bravo told about spilled coffee....)

C-dore 14 said...

URR, I remember a similar comment by one of my 2/C squad leaders during Plebe Summer.  It went something like "Girls wear pants, you wear trousers!"  Guess that wouldn't work any more.

C-dore 14 said...

DB, I've heard several versions of that story over the years.  It allegedly occurred in every major US naval base and generally involved theft.

C-dore 14 said...

Groto, Once again we have taken something that should be easy (what will I wear to work today?) and made it hard.

Now I know what happened to the guys who used to be Nuclear Weapons Program Inspectors.

Steeljaw said...

Why is it important or necessary to identify a particular segment (or segments) to qualify the "out of many" by stating "out of many__?"  That simple phrase carries a profound sense of inclusiveness.  To try to further qulaify it is exclusionary and an attempt to gild the lily.
We're likely in violent agreement - my preferences tend towards letting the Founder's statements stand as is.
w/r, SJS

BostonMaggie said...

She is ahead of schedule.  The renovation is supposed to be ready for the bicentennial 2012. 

USS Constitution is a far cry from a "sad metaphor" she is becoming better every day.

BostonMaggie said...

<span>Words can not express how disappointed I am with the pettiness of this thread.  We are ripping people for smiling in a photo?   While they get an award?  Heavens forefend!  We are pointing out that not everyone is in the same uniform during an ad hoc award ceremony?  Seriously?  Was everyone supposed to take time out from their duties to go change for this pic?  And then go change back to resume what they were doing?<span>  </span></span>
<span> </span>
<span>It's not an official Navy pic.  It's from their FaceBook.  We in social media are always beefing that we want more access to stuff.  So cautiously, Big Navy opens up and lets individual commands post Facebook and Twitter info.  And here is what they get for the effort!  Nice!</span>
<span> </span>
<span>The ball cap is allowed with NMU if ok'd by the CO.  Clearly, that is the case here.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>I bet everyone on Old Ironsides is soooo happy they decided to share this moment with the world.  And yeah, they know about this thread.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>As far as the recent pics that Sid links to justify calling Constitution’s current state being a sad metaphor for anything.<span>  </span>You couldn’t be more wrong!<span>  </span>The Navy came up with a plan to do this massive, well researched renovation.  They have committed time and money to do it and do it right.  How do we show our appreciation?  Ridicule.  Even in the midst of her renovation, she is indescribably beautiful.  These comments are so short-sighted and mean-spirited.  There wasn't a single person of the 500 or so lucky enough to be aboard on 4 JUL who was not awestruck and reverent.<span>  </span>Those of us who love this ship look forward to her appearance during the War of 1812 bicentennial celebration.</span>

BostonMaggie said...

Where is the dislike button?

Five said...

I guess this is Strike 1 for Sal.

I would submit that if you are going to post on Facebook, then you should expect someone to comment said content and sometimes not to your liking. 

Byron said...

Here's my mea culpa, Maggie.

SCPO said...

Maggie,

This is the U.S. NAVY not the Boston U. yacht club.  The Navy wanted the NWU so we would be uniform E1-O10...so where is the uniformity??  The military is held to a high standard and when we see a picture like this we wonder where has that standard gone?  The USS CONSTITUTION is in the public eye at all times and should be the example of uniformity and military bearing even if a photo is posted on Facebook...I am sure it did magically appear on the internet?

cdrsalamander said...

Maggie,
You know I have been a supporter of the USS Constitution for a long time - and in this post I gave a congrats.

The picture though also demonstrates a point long held on this blog - the dog's breakfast that is Navy uniform policy.  A grab-bag of uniforms of people of the same organization gives a grabastic view of our service.  

The picture and my post speak for themselves.  As for others comments - I'll let them explain their comments.

What that formation is is a representation of a larger disfunction.

LT B said...

Keel Haul?  :)

BostonMaggie said...

I don't argue with the fact that Facebook is an open forum.  But in light of the fact that for literally years we have asked the Navy to reach out to us with more content on social media, this response seems unwarranted and counter-productive.

BostonMaggie said...

Thank you Byron. 

BostonMaggie said...

NWU may indeed be a point of contention, but this post and thread hardly qualify as constructive criticism. 

BostonMaggie said...

Well of course my view is, as always, from a civilian perspective.  What I see is several happy people taking a few moments out of a busy work day to come together and celebrate an achievement.  Stopping and making sure everyone is the same uniform would have been a ridiculous waste of time and energy.  And that would be a waste of taxpayer money.

Discussing the problems with NWU should not lend itself to what this thread became - small and petty and cruel. 

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Maggie,

From a military perspective, what the trained eye sees is a lack of enforced personal or unit discipline.  While it is sometimes difficult to completely fathom the reasons for such seemingly trivial rules and regulations, it speaks to bigger issues of leadership and emphasis. 

Breaking the position of attention by smiling is unacceptable.  Wearing of different uniform items with the same uniform in formation, likewise.  It is an indicator of larger issues.  The impetus for correcting such breaches of discipline only reside in a limited way with the sailors themselves.  They should be taught that discipline and have it reinforced by senior NCOs (of which Petty Officers and Chiefs are among) and Officers.  They should police themselves in those matters as well. Were that my formation, some choice words for the Chief would commence, and we would have the formation again when everyone had their sh*t together. 

Phib hits on a larger problem, though, and that is the soup sandwich that is the USN uniform policy.  It speaks to a lack of focus on the important things by senior Navy leadership.  Which, by the way, begets precisely the other issues I allude to above. 

Inspect what you expect.  And expect discipline.  Enforce it, demand it, and never lower the standards on big things or small. 

This is not "constructive criticism".  There is no need for that.  The leadership in both the unit and the service know damned well what is to be done.  Formations such as are pictured here show disturbingly clearly that a great deal of those things aren't being done.

Salty Gator said...

Guys like..........Mike Mullen Actual!  Yes kids, that's right, the Chairman himself was a nuclear weapons inspector.  Makes sense considering the Commodore's comment......

Salty Gator said...

I never want to see that photo...again....ever

DeltaBravo said...

Maggie is scaring me.  :'(    Don't be mad, Maggie!  You're our friend!  :'(

C-dore 14 said...

Maggie, You've made several good points and if my comments Re; USS CONSTITUTION were petty let me apologize to you and her crew.  I was fortunate enough to hold a couple of reenlistment/promotion ceremonies aboard her while my ship was in the Boston area years ago.  Like CDR S my problem is that with the new uniforms we have taken something that should be easy and have made it hard.

However, let me make a couple of comments on your post from a former CO's perspective.  First, while award ceremonies should be held routinely they should never be "ad hoc".  To do so cheapens both the award and the person receiving it.  I usually held them in conjunction with our quarterly personnel inspection or during promotion/frocking ceremonies and everyone being recognized was in the uniform of the day.  Secondly, while I agree that the CO can authorize wearing the command ball cap with the NWU, why is he the only one doing so?  The only time I ever wore a khaki cover with my combination cap was when I held formal working uniform inspections.  Why?  At the time it was the prescribed headgear for summer khaki.  As I told my XO, since I was being "inspected" by 276 people my uniform had better be correct.

That said, it's the prerogative of CONSTITUTION's CO to determine her policies and procedures.  I can grouse from the "Peanut Gallery" but at the end of the day it's he, not I, who has the responsibility for the performance of his crew in a highly visible assignment.  From the photos on her website and Facebook page the uniforms of her crew are neat and correct and the crew looks proud of their assignment.

Sparticus said...

BostonMaggie,

The ship is magnificant, built by Americans and still looking sharp.

The Sailors are good, decent and professional.

The uniforms look like crap and were picked by the the same crowd that are screwing up almost everything they touch. The 5 Vector model to the bottom is filling up quickly.

Please do not confuse the distinction between the people and the crappy looking clown uniforms. The two items are as different as common sense and false diversity.  

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

How about keel raking, instead?  Keel hauling is port-starboard, keel raking is fore-aft.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

They look rumpled, untidy, and unprofessional in the NWU, even though they are spotless.  Even worse, they look like members of a 3rd World military, and in no way like Sailors of the UNITED STATES NAVY.  

Put them in Dungarees and Chambrays for work, and Crackerjacks for looking Sharp.  The USN used to have the sharpest naval dress uniform in the world, and for that matter, the Navy Department provided the USMC with the sharpest set of men's clothing anywhere, with thier dress uniform.  At least the Marines still have thiers.  Give the Sailors back thiers!   

BostonMaggie said...

I am not confusing anything.  This thread is very meanspirited in several spots twoard the ship and those who serve on her.  And please don't try to tell me that if the Sailors in the pic were under your command that you also wouldn't feel attacked and disrespected here.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Maggie,

I will tell you that if the sailors in this picture were under my command they would not look like this in formation, and if they were as undisciplined as to laugh while at the position of attention in formation, they would be feeling the heat from an NCO breathing fire. 

The good Commodore's comment below is exactly correct.  You don't have "ad-hoc", "come as you are",  or"funny hat day" awards formations.   You get people into a uniform and you award Sailors and Marines in a dignified and disciplined military fashion.  You owe it to them.

BostonMaggie said...

I have yet to be on a ship where there isn't a variety of uniforms on display.  So every ship I have been on had a lack of good NCO leadership?  I don't think so. 

I am perfectly well aware of the problems with NWU.  Is this how we fix them?  Hammering one ship in an unguarded, happy moment?  Hardly.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Believe it or not, some of us here have also spent a bit of time on Navy hulls. 

There are myriad uniforms in a USMC artillery gun park, too.  But when formation comes around, especially if it is an awards formation, they all damned sure look alike.  No sunglasses or wristwatches either.  That is the way it is done.  Period. 

BostonMaggie said...

I am your friend, but I am their friend too.  I am doing what real friends do.  When they see their friend at the bottom of the pig pile ( and some of the more gratuitous comments here more than qualify) they run over and start pulling bodies off.

And I don't care if I am the only one on this side of the arguement.  The problem with NWU is not going to be solved by picking on this one particular command.  And the complaints I am hearing regarding this pic in particular are small and petty.

Further, from a social media standpoint, we are shooting ourselves in the foot when we do this sort of nasty stuff.   

C-dore 14 said...

Salty, Not sure where you got that.  I worked with Mullen several times over the years and to the best of my knowledge he was never a Nuc Weapons Inspector.  You'll have to trust me on this but, other than PG School and a tour at USNA, he spent most of first 18 years in the Navy at sea.

BostonMaggie said...

<span>"Believe it or not, some of us here have also spent a bit of time on Navy hulls."  
 
</span>
<span>A perfect example of what I mean.  This thread has devolved into a series of attempts to be snide.  Unless of course you seriously thought I didn't know that.</span>
<span></span>
<span>I don't think I have ever asserted that I bring the official or experienced Navy perspective to the table.  As a matter of fact I have restated that I am a civilian in this very thread.  But thanks.</span>
<span></span>
<span>KMRIA</span>

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Unguarded, happy moment? 

They are at the position of attention.

a. Attention. The position of attention (see fig. 2-1) is the
basic military position. This position indicates that you are alert and
ready for instructions. Come to attention with smartness and snap at the
commands FALL IN or ATTENTION. Thereafter, you move only as ordered
until given AT EASE, REST, FALL OUT, or you are dismissed. To come to
attention:
(1) Bring your left heel against the right.
(2) Turn your feet out equally to form an angle of 45 degrees.
Keep your heels on the same line and touching.
(3) Your legs should be straight but not stiff at the knees.
(4) Keep your hips and shoulders level and your chest lifted.
(5) Your arms should hang naturally, thumbs along the trouser
seams, palms facing inward toward your legs, and fingers
joined in their natural curl.
(6) Keep your head and body erect. Look straight ahead. Keep
your mouth closed and your chin pulled slightly.
(7) Stand still and do not talk.

The only command after which quiet conversation is permitted in formation is "REST". 

So yes, standing and smiling in formation sprinkled with all different uniforms and variations of uniforms is unsatisfactory.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

"I have yet to be on a ship"...

Not snide at all.  There is a properly disciplined way to do things and an improper way to do things. 

Eventually, lives are at risk with that very choice.

sid said...

Thanks Maggie.

I am glad to hear she is ahead of schedule.

Note,  I said "current" state.

That ship -like the navy- has proven to be remarkably resilient and self-healing throughout their respective histories.

sid said...

Maggie...Sorry that offends you.

Yeah, the attempted humor attempt was edgy...My character flaw.

I learned you weren't supposed to express emotion at attention.

Military bearing and all.

Salty Gator said...

lets dial it down for a second.  You two are both friends of Sal and probably the most popular commenters on the blog.  Save the hostility for Alpha Chick.

Salty Gator said...

I personally met the CO of the CONSTITUTION at the Navy Yard.  He is a squared away warrior, as was his CMC whom I also met.  They run a tight ship. They got caught in a moment of weakness which is unfortunate but it happens.  This is what we call a "teachable moment" now in modern politics.  And that is OK.  It won't keep him up at night.  Or his CMC.  But I guarantee it won't happen again.  So no worries!  this is not people calling the ship a piece of crap or saying that he is a poor custodian of Fine Naval Tradition and History...far from it.  It's peanuts being thrown from the peanut gallery, razzing from the stands, and that happens in the Navy.  We're SWOs.  Trust me, this is mild.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

I am not being hostile in any way.  Not a bit.  It is a standard to be met and held.  There is no "friendship" one way or the other about this.  It is either done right or it is done wrong.  The discipline displayed at things like awards formations is indicative of a larger approach to discipline and standards. 

Two of the purposes of Close Order Drill"

"Move his unit from one place to another in a standard, orderly manner, while maintaining
the best appearance possible."

"Teach discipline by instilling habits of precision and automatic response to orders."

Every Corporal who has been to NCO school knows that.

Sparticus said...

Boston Maggie,

I do not fault you because you are have no experience other than as a casual external observer. However, military organizational culture, military bearing and those internal things are clearly reflected in the subtle and simple things. I suggest that you stick with the PR Navy, "work she may, shine she must." What that means is the crap below the surface that you cannot see might be broken or technically out of commission and the outside looks so good and nice.

The uniform service used to pride itself on consistency, military bearing, pride, and professionalism etc... Apparently the modern club is almost anything goes.

ActusRhesus said...

As opposed to my last end of tour award that was presented at restaurant with no attention to award and no "pin on" decoy medal?

some people don't get it.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

AR,

Precisely.  Had one mailed to me. 

To do that to junior Sailors and Marines is unconscionable.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Sid,

You are oh-so-correct re: bearing.  See my comment above with description of position of attention from NAVMC.

BostonMaggie said...

Sparticus -

Is this thread going to help any problem, perceived ot real?  No

Is this thread going to cause other problems.  Yes

Thanks for the "advice" and the attempt to put my opinions on your belief that I care only about appearances in the Navy as.  It's far from true.  We may disagree, but it's not because I am a civilian and to hang your hat on that is a cop-out.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span>Cause problems?  You gotta be kidding me, sweetie.  I would be damned certain if I were the XO and CMC that I would make sure the boss knew not to show up in front of a formation in a uniform different from my sailors, who should be all in the same one.  And any idiot that thinks it is okay to smile or laugh while at attention would be taught how wrong they are.</span>

Sparticus said...

The group in general looks pretty unhappy about the posing. I suspect that the photo op is encroaching on their first 18 holes game and they are really unhappy that thet can not get the normal 54 holes in before the PM T time.

Glenn Mark Cassel AMH1(AW) USN RET said...

Agreed. And to the idiots on the uniform board who thought up the three tone blue jammies. Good lord, they are in the same hideous category as the new service uniform for E-1 to E-6, aka Black and Tan.
I would prefer BCDs all around. And Master Chief Rivers at NMPC in Millington knows this. I called him last year and gave him a serious ass chewing. Benefit of being retired, ya know.
And echoing ScotttheBadger, Dungarees and Jumpers. Blue dixie cup for the dungarees, white dixie cup for service dress and the old traditional Flat Hat my Uncle George wore in WW2.
And I do not want to hear the excuse of too much stuff to lug around in a seabag. I hauled around two sets of Elmo Blues, two sets of trop whites, two sets of the Johnny Cashes, plus utilities(1973) four sets, raincoat, peacoat, socks, skivvies and other stuff. Then the Jumper uniforms came back and we still had trop whites and johnny cashes.
If today's young sailors want sympathy, it is in the dictionary, somewhere between shit and syphillis.

sid said...

Maggie, while I am sticking with the idea of the Constitution as a metaphor, my characterization was poorly shaped and, because I did not hightlight the fact that her current plucked feather looks are in fact fundamentally different than why she looked that way a century ago, came across in entirely the wrong context than that intended.

So, for that, I apologize to you, to her crew, and to all those who are laboring to make her whole again.

ActusRhesus said...

ugh.  I was half tempted to tell them "if you don't care enough to present this properly, don't bother giving it to me at all."

BostonMaggie said...

By causing problems I was referring to access to information from various commands.  All the things you want for the Navy or any other service require the goodwill of taxpayers to some degree.  Hence DV rides and recruiting posters and NASCAR Navy cars.  Is this as important as warfighting and ship maintenence and discipline?  Hell no! But does it matter?  Yes.

My point is that this thread hammered away at a particular command and accomplished NOTHING except risk the goodwill of this and other commands.  Who is going to risk sticking their head out of we are going to play whack-a-mole when they do?

I am not worried about the CO & CMC of USS Constitution because without question, the Navy couldn't do better.  As other commenters have pointed out they are squared away individuals. 

Social media may well be overrated, but it does serve a purpose. 

You know sweetie, I hear the view from the stern chock on the USS Truxton is fabulous.....you should check it out. 

C-dore 14 said...

AR, This shows how much things have changed since I entered the service, the award of personal decorations was rare, and the attitude was "He doesn't need a medal, I took care of him on his FITREP".  I received my first personal award as an Ensign following a combat deployment to Vietnam.  I received my next one 10 years later.  Both were presented by the Commodore/Flag in formal ceremonies.  Maybe the difference is that the award of personal decorations and other recognition is expected and no longer considered an exceptional event.  Hence receiving your EOT award in a restaurant.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Maggie,

I am not going to argue the point.  I know what I expected from commands I have had, and what was expected from me as a commander.  And formations that look like that, they CAN do it better.  They can square it away and do it the way it is supposed to be done. 

Things such as these are seemingly small things, but are not, in actuality. Discipline is discipline, and it is the same discipline that keeps a ship fighting and sailors at their stations when they otherwise would not.  If you don't believe that to be true, read the after-action comments from sailors in the first year of the Pacific War.  All those drills and inspections that they hated in the late 30s were what saved their lives in the furnace of combat against the IJN.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Wait, whose stern chock should I be checking out?  ;)

ActusRhesus said...

yeah.  It's pretty sad that a NAM is now pretty much an "Officer's Good Conduct Medal" nowadays.

SCPO said...

Well...stand next to an Army or USAF and you will like a freshly graduated bootcamp grad when it comes to awards.  They (the USA & USAF) hand them out like candy...not uncommon to see an E5 with a Meritorious Service Medal or Bronze Star (the kind without the V)