Saturday, March 13, 2010

Self fulfilling prophecy

We are a decade late for the "In case our planning assumption that 'LCS will work' fails, we need a 'SLEP the FFGs' Branch Plan" - I don't know if this really puts us in much of a worse position - as too much ego, pride, and conflicts of interest are tied up in LCS right now to turn the ship around.
The Obama administration wants lawmakers to increase the tonnage minimum for naval vessels that require legislative authority to transfer to foreign navies, which would allow for the quicker transition of 29 Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates abroad.
We are a POM cycle too late as well to effectively develop a plan to contract build a EuroFrigate as a bridging platform to a domestically built multi-mission Patrol Frigate - so like VMF-221, we will have what we will have.

This whole thing makes me feel like
Marvin.

Hat tip Lee.

93 comments:

ewok40k said...

Feeling like a Marvin?
Have a motivator:
NSFW and Kristen-unfriendly
You have been warned!
Still with me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9upTLWRZTfw

Other than that, sorry for your fate, not having even FF(G)s to SLEP...

Tom Mowry said...

Sounds like someone needs a Pan Galcatic Gargle Blaster to start thier day...http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bartending/Cocktails/Pan_Galactic_Gargle_Blaster...
Don't Panic maybe the best advice for this ship building cluster

Tom Mowry said...

Drink one before you watch this...the Navy is proud of the LCS http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/video/video.php?v=1311349397722

sid said...

...the Navy is proud of the LCS

Of course they are Tom...Big Money Talks.

Can't upset Lockmart or NG.

Heck there are kids in college and mortgages to pay!!

And stockholders too!!!!

The historical analogue that keeps coming up for me in relation to the LCS program, and the way it has been conceived and nurtured in the USN...

is this one

Good case study here...


<span>

It is clear that the Vasa was planned as a small, traditional ship but became a large,
innovative ship intended to carry maximum armament without regard for factors such as
stability, stiffness, and sailing characteristics.

As they say, the rest is history....
</span>

Tom Mowry said...

I keep thinking of Mr Jeffersons gunboat navy

Byron said...

It's enough to make a man weep. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

John said...

Well, if we dump the FFGs, that will reduce operating costs and manpower needs, and the fewer escort ships may well fit in with a reduced number of CVs to escort.

As befits a nation plummeting from a role of leading and defending the free world, to a state of bankruptcy and dependency on the patience and largesse of trading partners it is indebted to.

We have so much to thank the Obama administration for.  Might as well add the calmitous shift from a Navy based on sea control and CVs to a pointless gaggle of LCSs to his achievements.

xbradtc said...

But she looks good in a museum!

sid said...

Just looked at that video...My connection was kinda jerky, but it sure looks like she....ooops gotta keep it transformational, so "it"- is a wallowy beast off the step.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

So, we bought ourselves a $500 million drug interdiction boat? 

Retired Now said...

The Late Great Country - United States.     Since Congress (Led by Mr. Obama) is hell bent to pass SOMETHING (anything) that sounds vaguely like "health care",  then the TRUTH is this:

The President (and his Dem's) have only the most vague "plan" for heathcare; however, the President has a very definite Plan:   saddle America with such vast, perpetual debt, that we can never recover and be the land of free, with unlimited economic opportunity.

America loses its economic freedom forever.   Beginning in 2010 with the passage of Obama-Care,  we become subjects to the " Unified "  States of America instead of citizens in the United States of America.

No more land of economic freedom.   We are proverbial "toast" when he signs the upcoming "health" welfare legislation into law.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

John,

You hit the nail on the head.  We won't need all those expensive escort vessels if we get rid of all those expensive CVNs.  Which is befitting the third-rate power we are becoming. We will have multiple layers of welfare, including socialized medicine, and plenty of other socialist initiatives to pour my tax money into rather than that mean old Defense Department. 

Only a matter of time until we change the Preamble.  "Provide the general welfare, Ignore the common defense..."

sid said...

Good news about the LCS!!!

At least "it" doesn't have an electronic bell like the LPD-17s!!!!!

Gotta wonder about the ballistic protection in those nice big windows though...

And, is any of that spiffy electronics suite up to taking any splinter damage?

Little things like armored cabling and redundant -separated- electrical sources perhaps?

Ever consider about the effects of splinters into the backs of those cool monitors against the exterior bulkheads?

Nah.

It'll never happen. Been whiffing too many antique flatulents again I guess.

Tom Mowry said...

So it appears that LCS is future like or not (as any sailor knows s#$t in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first) so the question becomes how do you take a vessel with no or very little organic weapons capablity and give it some bite...so being that there are many of the Navys best and brightest how do we make the system better???........

sid said...

how do we make the system better???........

Echoing Jackie Fisher...

SCRAP THE LOT!!!!!!

sid said...

After everyone admits the LCS is a dead branch in the evolution of naval vessels, and that at this juncture, we're better off building nothing rather than those floating pigs...

Convene a 21st Century version of the General Board and hammer out a coherent Strategic and Operational framework...

Then, from that, derive ship characterisitcs that actually make some sense to flesh out that framework...

Sadly though, it ain't gonna happen as long as the broken DOD procurement system which Friedman spoke of last week continues in place...

And, as mentioned below, Big Money Talks. That would be too disruptive to the status quo. Congressmen would not get election funds. Flags wouldn't pick up post retirement jobs. Children would have to go to votech. And fewer Mc Mansions would get built.

Besides, the USN has other pressing priorities like this , and this

RhodeIslander said...

First improvement:  remove that Monster:  Full AEGIS CND suite, complete with 5 giant equipment rooms full of many racks and banks upon banks of Servers, Switches, Routers, etc.   That might free up 100 tons of delicate systems alone.   Vastly overly complicated command and control, complete with full AEGIS Doctrines,  just to control a tiny RAM launcher which has an even shorter range than the tiny gun on the forecastle. 

   Empty out these 5 giant equipment rooms, and replace them with a more "appropriate" command C4I suite, which leaves you 3 huge air conditioned spaces now empty.   Here you add (easily) another comfortable 30 racks and lockers, and still have room for adding a CIWS, SEA-RAM, as well as some 25mm remotely controlled weapons.   

Result:  a much cheaper, decently armed, fast drug interdiction boat, that might be affordable since you would not need to feed the entire LOCKHEED MARTIN AEGIS CND support team which operates down in New Jersey for lifetime support of LCS-1 Class CND suite.

    That's a "fix" to save $$$$$$$$$$$$ over the lifetime of LCS.

sid said...

Brewster...

Never heard much of them after Midway.

Thats because then, the aircraft procurement process rewarded performance, and similarly punished the lack thereof (mostly).

An interesting history of those days, into the '70s went it began to fall of the rails, is here in the oral histroy tab on the left.

Wonder what the Shades of the Loughead brothers , Glenn Martin, Jack NorthropLeroy Grumman think of the products their corporate namesakes are delivering today...?

sid said...

Getting it right in those days wasn't easy either...when it was all done by eyeball and slide rule.

SPANGENBERG: Right. And one of the tasks that came along at that time, the way you got a different airplane was to write to the contractor and say give us a proposal for doing this, that or the other. Our fleet fighters, the F4Fs certainly were inadequate. We knew they were going to be inadequate. I still remember writing those letters. One to Brewster, do you remember the Brewster Buffalo, the F2A? I wrote a letter to Brewster and I drafted the letter to Grumman and said give us a proposal with putting a 2600 engine into the F2A for Brewster and into the F4F for Grumman, modify the airplane to suit, and include these items: take out the emergency flotation that was a standard part of airplanes in those days, put in wing mounted 50 cal. machine guns instead of the 30 and 50 cal. firing guns through the props. Install armor and self-sealing tanks, the development of which was just starting, and make it a combat airplane. We gave them the performance specs we wanted them to meet. Shipped the letter out, after the usual coordination with the whole engineering branch.
Shortly thereafter another competition was run which resulted in selecting the F7F. That was the first competition I think that I had been involved in to some degree from the beginning. An interesting part of the competition process was that when a competition came in we would hang up each competitor's general arrangement and inboard profile drawings all around our office. They usually filled the room. We would put them up early in the morning and then all the senior officers and civilians in the bureau would get invited to come and inspect the proposals. The chief of the bureau would be invited. Towers must have come down on occasion but I don't remember him specifically. But I remember Adm. Marc Mitscher who was then the assistant chief, coming down. He looked at the F7F proposal and said, "That will never go on an aircraft carrier. It's too big."

sid said...

This is the kinda guy the DOD needs in procurement...

From Spangeberg:

The long-time head of Structural Requirements was a fellow named Ralph Creel. Creel in that month or two that I was in Structures sat across from me at a double desk. (I had never seen one before.) He sat on one side and I sat on the other and he assigned the work I was supposed to do. I looked at a stress report on a Bell XL (Navy version of a P-39) landing gear. I didn't like their loads analysis. I guess I made Ralph real happy. Ralph was the hardest guy on contractors that ever lived. Contractors complained about him. All the contractors said "That God damn Creel." He wrote them letters almost accusing them of skulduggery, of trying to get around the requirements. Nasty letters. We argued all the time. They, the contractors, weren't really that bad and you had to work with them. Actually, despite the fact that everybody "hated" Creel, when he finally retired he got more job offers from the industry because he knew the specs system, knew how things worked. He was the soul of integrity, probably too much so.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Sid,

You just gave Byron the slogan he needed for the back of his T-shirts!

Front:  SLEP the FIGS!  (Picture of OHP in some dramatic scene)

Back:  Scrap the PIGS!  (Picture of LCS with the ol' circle and line through it)

Big seller.....

sid said...

<span>Floating Pigs that dream of Flying... 
 
Put some Kiwi wings on it.</span>
<span></span>
<span>Oh wait!</span>
<span></span>
<span>Its been done already!!!!</span>

CBD said...

Sal,
Ever considered the F100? Not a small ship, but a real frigate...costing fully loaded about what the LCS cost nearly empty.

BIW and LM N&ESSM were heavily involved in its development through Navantia and variants have been picked up for the Norwegian Nansen and (future) Australian Hobart classes. BIW could build them concurrently with the DDG1000s and future DDG51s...and we know that they can inspect welds properly.

Maybe we could even scare NG and LM shipyards by encouraging Navantia to invest in Todd Shipyards for this OHP replacement?

Throw Marinette Marine (Fincantieri), Austal, Halter Marine (Singapore Technologies Engineering) and Bollinger (often allied with Vosper Thornycroft) some contracts to develop corvettes and patrol boats...might even get some useful models out of it!

ActusRhesus said...

the problem is, so much money has been spent developping this that NO ONE will admit it sucks.  Any time you have a project like this you get a lot of senior officer types with too much pride of ownership to admit where they have failed.  Let me give you a micro scale allegory.

My community is very afraid of being downsized (and just learned that despite our best efforts, we will still need to dramatically reduce our number of O3 billets by FY 2012.) About four years ago we implemented a metrics tracking program to try and get hard data to prove how useful and busy we all were.

Problem was, the people designing it were in billets not required to use it, and those required to use it overwhelmingly hated it.  But because too many people had bragged about how this was a "home grown project" NO ONE would fix it and instead insisted that those who were struggling with it's terrible design and nonfunctionality were either lazy, belligerent, or simply failed to properly read the user manual.

Another case in point.  A number of people on official navy message boards have posted complaint that the blue suede boots are destroying their feet.  Apparently they just bought the wrong size.  All of them.

Once it's been decided a project WILL NOT FAIL no reasonably exposure of its flaws will derail the fail train.  or in this case, boat.

ewok40k said...

I wonder if our Navy will get another ex-Perry to join ORP Kosciuszko and ORP Pulaski... only good thing there could be from that sorry state of things.
We can always sell/lease them back to replace LCS combat loses. Because if there will be real naval war there will be LCS lost. Sadly, lives lost too.

Captan.joe said...

They could always use the LCS as a platform to launch the V-22. They are perfect for each other. All that speed.... and warped decks, too.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Bah!

We just need to sober up and act like there is a war on.  We built a few ships in 42/43 and 44 with about 2 years strategic warning.  I say we can do it again given real leaders.  The kind who can reach down and pull up the national will to declare war with following end game: "We win, they lose".

Of course we need to elect and select (as pertinent) something other than the current crop of empty suit politicians.

Somebody like Burke likely wouldn't survive the Lords of Diversity. Guys like him ruin too many shoe shines, so work the system we're stuck with.

Anybody know any female state elected officials and/or four stripers with the spine and stomach of Elizabeth the First? I've plumb give up on hoping for another Reagan or Burke. It doesn't have to be Liz that they're channeling. I'll settle for the executive ability, mission integrity and tenacity of Florence Nightengale, with the killer instinct of Katherine the Great.

Another one to imitate would be the tiny Sansei lady who taught all the kids (including mine) to read half way through her Kindergarten class in the public school out Eva way. That lady was tough as nails, scary smart, had will of iron, nerves of steel and a velvet touch.

OK, Lords of Diversity, put up or shut up (consider yourselves on notice, you've got something to prove, if you're up to it).

Iron self control a BFOQ.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

I imagine that they are glad they are dead, so they don't have to see what thier companies are making.

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ewok40k said...

Does Mrs.Palin count as elected state official?

Tom Mowry said...

we could the t-shirts to fund the development of a new class, where can I buy one?

Tom Mowry said...

Now where thinking, Aegis on this is a total boondogle.Rhode Islanders always come up with good ideas (I was born there and grew up there, hence my angry monkey from Quahog), I like that simple cheap and adds ability I have three  things.

For small boat defence we something like a SRBOC/Hedgehog, but instead of CHAFF or underwater charges it travels out say 500 to 1000 yards and puts down a pattern of submuntions to designed to disable, maim and kill. The LCS has speed. Ship can scoot and lay a nasty little pattern of destruction in it's wake.

Second we need a more lethal ASCM as we discussed a few threads back. My solution is a two stage ASCM. Stage one is a boost and cruise phase, stage two terminal phase. The missle is much like other sea skimmers; 20 to 60 mile range, .9 Mach etc. At 5 NM from the target the stages separate. The terminal stage has a small booster that increases it's velocity, the second stage then conducts a pop manuver and pops chaff and flares to blind and confuse the targets point defence system. This is just the beginning of the idea so go easy on my baby.

Third a laser/IR guided point defence missle that can be used against air or surface targets.

I am working on the ASW problem. I will think about that while I am making meatballs, sauce and stuffed shells.

Byron said...

Mrs. Palin did serve as an elected governor. Custom dictates that they can still be referred to as "Governor". So your answer is "Yes"

MR T's Haircut said...

I think we should scrub the list of retired Flags.. and any of them still alive that served in the last 13 years and gave us shit like the LCS, reduced shipbuilding, diversity, NMCI, F-35, DDX, NKO, NWU, should be taken of the rolls and forfeit their retirement checks to pay for the BS they have sold us down....

SubIconoclast said...

Personal careerism, short-term organizational goals, and noncritical decision-making are a terrible combination.  Applies to the military just as much as it does to the rest of government.  

One thing I don't understand is, why do some folks here seem to blame LCS on the Obama administration?  This train wreck has been over a decade in the making, and most of the fundamentally bad decisions were made long before Obama relieved the watch.  Yes, the most recent in our growing line of big spenders has made his own negative impact on our financial future, but that doesn't absolve his predecessors for their own damage to our nation's institutions... personnel, requirements, and acquisition folks have combined to cause more damage to US military capability over the last 15 years than any adversary could ever hope to do.  

sid said...

"Too Big To Fail"

Thats the LCS program.

I simply cannot understand how responsible people who have spent a life in the USN can make the dumbass argument that the current LCS designs will turn out as beneficial as the Spruance hull did.

Anybody that posits such a specious line is a venal opportunist, or a delusional fool.

As Grandpa says below, its time the USN leadership stood up and acted like it was in a war. There is no reason to continue with a serial build of such flawed and compromised designs...And hope it will all turn out ok.

To exacerbate this septic tank state of affairs is the dominating influence on the procurement process of the "Too Big To Fail" concentrated defense contractors. Perry's "dinner with the devil", or whatever the name of that fateful meet which initiated the wave of consolidation did more harm to this military than the Russians ever did. Its not like you can go somewhere else when offered a product line that is outright criminally inadequate.

What a mess.



ewok40k said...

In fact Soviets despite all the planned economy blues kept for whole time parallel rivalling design bureaus, with rewards lavished on succesful designs and those lagging behind facing disgrace (or worse in Stalins times)... And If US will merge once more LM with Boeing we can have monopoly coupled with  private ownership! <sarcasm> Brilliant! <sarcasm></sarcasm></sarcasm>

ewok40k said...

Tis means she's best candidate you have to replace Obama. For those in Republican party, you know what to do. And she's fishermans wife, if she could see the LCS there would be no problem in sinking (literally) the program. She probably can recognize a really bad ship design whe she sees it.

RhodeIslander said...

LCS-3 USS FORT WORTH:  Will she launch before the December 2010 freeze sets in ?

Begun in July 2009,  if LCS-3 does not get into the water before the Wisconsin winter sets in,  then she will have to wait until Spring 2011 to be launched.

Here's a photo of her under construction inside a bldg at Marinette:

http://www.lmlcsteam.com/ssp_director/albums/album-9/lg/071509_Bldg_10N_IMG_7403.jpg

Perhaps NAVSEA Captain's get force the shipyard to launch before they are ready, like they did with LCS-1.

sid said...

USS Fort Worth...

The very name exemplifies the fundamental twisting of reality that defines the entire LCS program, from conception to execution.

WASHINGTON (NNS) -- Secretary of the Navy Donald C. Winter announced March 6 that the newest littoral combat ship (LCS) will be named USS Fort Worth.

The announcement continues the practice of naming the agile LCS vessels after American midsized cities, small towns and communities.

Fort Worth is a "midsized" city?

Really?

#17 is in the middle according to LCS math I s'pose.

Midsized...Yeah...Just like Freedom and Independence were named after municipalities as well.

Stalin-esque lies...or pathological delusions.

Take your pick.

One or the other is necessary to look somebody in the eye and say the LCS is good for the navy and the country.

Byron said...

First thing I noticed is I only see three guys: two on the engine room module who look like they're siting something in. Way in the back near the other two modules (which make a whole) is a guy sitting in a nice comfortable chair. Gotta be a supervisor of some sorts, or maybe the shop union steward. Three guys working in one bay (of an obviously two bay building) ain't good. This could have been taken on a weekend, however, with a lot of people not working (shipyards truly hate to pay overtime on new construction)

Next thing is the watertight bulkheads. My opinion of LCS just hit the shitter. Corragated bulkheads? For real? Even commercial ships tend not to use that crap. I havent' seen this used in nearly thirty years. Even the last new con ship I worked (Newport News "Double Eagle" tankers that damn near put them out of business) didn't use this type of construction. Stupid beyond stupid, and sad to say, the real sinners will not be punished in this life.

And your question, Rhode Islander? If CO NAVSEA showed up with an M-240 and a mag he might get enough action to get it done.

RhodeIslander said...

Here's a photo of LCS-1 in 2005 at Keel Ceremony

http://www.lmlcsteam.com/ssp_director/albums/album-17/lg/LCS-Keel-crew.jpg


Is that a corragated bulkhead ?     What is it ?   they were everywhere on the ship.

sid said...

Corragated bulkheads? For real? Even commercial ships tend not to use that crap.

Remember what Friedman said last week...The LCS has to built lightly  -"flimsy" was his word- in order to attain the, "very high speed."

And that pic tells me the hull follow-ons are still optimized to go very fast (for no sane reason).

Which, once the ship is loaded down with normal Frigate stuff will be too heavy to make that happen, the design will sport exactly the wrong attributes for its real world use.

And that pic tells me the hull follow-ons are still optimized to go very fast (for no sane reason).

Thats a far, far, cry from the evolution of the Spruance hull.

sid said...

<span>Corragated bulkheads? For real? Even commercial ships tend not to use that crap. 
 
Remember what Friedman said last week...The LCS has to be built lightly  -"flimsy" was his word- in order to attain the, "very high speed." 
 
And that pic tells me the hull follow-ons are still optimized to go very fast (for no sane reason). 
 
Which, once the ship is loaded down with normal Frigate stuff will be too heavy to make that happen, the design will sport exactly the wrong attributes for its real world use. 

Thats a far, far, cry from the evolution of the Spruance hull.</span>
<span></span>
<span>RI, don't think this makes the LCS-2 trimaran any better for fleet use either.  Heck, it started to bend and buckle on the ways in Mobile.</span>
<span></span>
<span>That should tell you something about how well she -ooops "it"- will fare in conditions like this...</span>

RhodeIslander said...

LCS-3   PHOTO  From down at Lockheed's New Jersey web site:

http://www.lmlcsteam.com/ssp_director/albums/album-9/lg/071509_940_Keel_Module_lkg_fwd_IMG_7386.jpg


This shows a bulkhead that is corrugated, presummably for added strenght.

RhodeIslander said...

In Feb. 2009, one of our company's testers returned from a trip down to Mobile: AUSTAL.  He reported that everyone onboard USS INDEPENDENCE (over a year ago now) heard and felt the ship shudder. Later to discover that while LCS-2 was being moved around inside the bldg in prep's for Launch,  she was accidentally "dropped" such that (for a few hours) she was only supported by her two outrigger sections.    This was when the large damage occurred down the centerline up by flight deck (and in other areas too).    Imagine that large ship inside a building only being held up by its two out riggers.  

So, AUSTAL (no doubt) has learned how to balance these trimarans, so that for LCS-4,  they won't repeat this huge mistake.   Not sure why it was kept so hush hush.   Honesty is always the best policy, and I thought the Australians were not like their General Dynamic overlords.  

Let's wait and see how LCS-4 turns out before concluding that this design won't run 20 + years in heavy swells and perform just fine.  Like her (nearly) identical trimaran ferry is doing in the Atlantic ocean off Africa and Europe for over a year now (with no hull cracks).

Byron said...

Look at the bulkhead in the commissioning picture. See how it moves in and out? Unlike the shell longs, which are the standard Navy T beams. It means that you can 1)make the bulkhead thinner, and 2) do away with vertical stiffeners.

Put another way, I'd like to find the jackass that designed this shit, and the asshole that bought the design, and kick them where it hurts very, very bad.

Byron said...

OK, now we have a hull that has been VASTLY over-stressed, and the Navy is going to actually pay for it and of course the repairs that will crop up in the years to come. No offense, RI, but this was grounds for forfeit of contract. And since Austal was a subcontractor, it wasn't their job to report what happened, that dirty job belonged to the prime. Now how the hell could the bulk of the weight be left that long and no one noticed? Must be those outstand Gulf Coast ship builders...

sid said...

How often has that ferry line been delayed for weather RI?

Happens quite regularly to the multi-hulls in the Aegean when the meltemi pipes up...

Does it have to manuever suddenly in cross seas to prosecute a pop up sub contact.

Has that aluminum design been tested against hostile ordnance?

sid said...

Oh yeah...

So it buckled due to abnormal stresses when being moved.

Hmmm.

Hows that gonna play in the MIW mission when there is a bit of a surprise?

Byron said...

Wonder what the shock test is gonna be? Hand grenade at five miles?

sid said...

Shock Test?

We don't need no steenkeeng shock test!

"Accordingly, the full traditional rigor of Navy-mandated ship shock trials is not achievable, due to the damage that would be sustained by the ship and its many non-shock hardened systems," said the report, which was submitted to Congress this week.
<span></span>
The report urged the Navy to continue its assessment of both ships to predict the degree of shock hardness and survivability that could be expected in a combat environment.

sid said...

So the LCS hulls won't be subjected to mandated shock testing because its already known they will be badly damged due to -the deliberate- lack of design shock hardening.

A Frigate replacement that is less survivable than the 40 year old hull it will replace...

Because we just NEED to!

sid said...

Instead of burying any semblance of credibility in this program with such an insultingly obvious fabrication, how come the USN didn't just cut to the chase:

We had to kiss the butt of this congrescritter in order to obtain funding for the next two LCS's, so we named it after her large city...also we were mindful of one of its largest employers.

(largest unless you use LCS math, which would put it somewhere around midsized)

sid said...

RI, do you know any details of the Bonanza Express grounding?

How well did that aluminum hull fare versus a steel one?

How come the loss of just one engine precipitated a grounding? Windage or currents? Improper handling?

What would happen to an Austal design if it suffered the blow the Roberts did?

What would happen if it found an uncharted/mischarted wellhead at speed of Nigeria?

Tom Mowry said...

the buffalos were sent out lend lease, to the Brits, the Dutch and the Finns. Brits used them in the CBI with no success; honor said that they could not run from a dogfight or they would face court martial so the Zero's decimated them, Dutch used them in CBI as well with the same result. Finns used them against the Russian with a lot of success, 459 kill to 15 losses. They were facing older Soviet models like the I 15 etc. They built a scout bomber for USN which did not meet the grade and went out to the Brits under lend lease, 750 or so units, Buccaneer under US service, Bremuda for the Brits. Naval Aircraft factory took them over after charges of mismangement and fraud. Brewster then produced Corsairs as the F3 A1. Out of business by 1946.

Tom Mowry said...

Just got done comparing The National Security Cutter with LCS, I know that it has problems also but it looks like a better platform design and size wise

Tom Mowry said...

I'll answer your fourth question for you, it would break her back and put her on the bottom, it almost took us out at the time, main deck was the only thing holding us together, we were also very lucky with point of impact, just uhder the main reduction gear, plus the intake and exhaust plenums gave us a natural outlet for the blast over pressure, so for LCS that would be the end i am afraid, hecl if we had been built in Tod,d or Avondal,e or even Ingalls for that matter I think we would have been on the bottom as well, Bath built is best Built,

Byron said...

Agree, Tom. If the explosion had happened at or forward of BHD 250, you would have broken in half. With my knowledge of the FFG structure and weak points, that would have sunk you for sure. Glad to know that your number wasn't called that day.

sid said...

From the CRS Report asking if this is feasible...

<span>


<span>Northrop admits the ships are deficient in one significant Navy  requirement: full compatibility with the Naval Vessel Rules (NVR), essentially building codes developed by the Naval Sea Systems Command and the American Bureau of Shipping. The belated application of the NVR to both LCS designs was a major factor in the cost growth on those ships.</span>
<span>Most of the NSC design already is NVR-compatible, Womble said, but upgrading the entire design to NVR standards would involve a fundamental redesign and eliminate the proposal’s cost and construction time attributes.</span>
<span>“We’d need a waiver [from the NVR rules] to make this proposal work,”<span> </span>he said</span>
<span></span>
<span>I still say such ad hoc proposals still won't truly fix the underlying problem, and will still leave the navy saddles with inadequate designs...At a time when there will be an acute need for the very few hulls out there capable of meeting real world fleet needs.</span>
<span></span>
<span>The USN has no clue of what kind of ships it needs to build because there is no coherent strategic and operational blueprint from which to derive design requirements from. </span>

</span>

Mike M. said...

We've GOT them...but nobody listens and more.  Too many of the top managers are busy either growing their bureaucratic empire or angling for a post-retirement job.

RhodeIslander said...

Sorry, can't help you.    Our group of sub contractors are just proverbial LAN "weenies"  (who unfortunately witness HM&E problems during our various test trips).     Concerning the LCS-2 error around 13 months ago,  evidently there were "lots" of workers onboard and inside the AUSTAL bldg when the problem occurred.    Many people are aware of that mistake and it would be safe to bet a year's salary that the ABS rep(s) who were present took many photo's of the damage and wrote reports of the long bending down the middle of the flight deck.   I've relayed 100.0 % of what I heard and if you want to learn more, ask ABS who must have many photo's and long reports of this incident.    Which occurred  BEFORE  LCS-2 was ever put into the water for the very first time.   And it occurred inside their construction bldg in Feb 2009.    Never read anything in the newspapers etc. about this, but it would explain why LCS-4 should be completed, and run at sea for 6 months  b-e-f-o-r-e  the NAVY down selects this summer.    The NAVY must wait at least another year or two before down selecting this LCS program to only one "winning" design,  which should be the massive, cavernous LCS-2 class,  with almost unlimited growth potential and 4 times the fuel capacity of LCS-1 class.

sid said...

which should be the massive, cavernous LCS-2 class,  with almost unlimited growth potential and 4 times the fuel capacity of LCS-1 class.

RI...Neither design is adequate for the warship roles they will be expected to perform.

Either/Or is still a terrible option for the USN.

ewok40k said...

hmmm the ADATS springs to my mind with the dual purpose point defence...
as for the ASCM I see 2 options:
go stealth - see per Norwegian NSM
go fast - see per Sunburn
and one more thing - get passive IR homing for the missile, coupled with stealth it may mean first warning is impact...

Byron said...

That's a fact...bad enough one hull that's half aluminum, one thats all aluminum scares the bejeebers out of me.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Oy vey.  This whole discussion is akin to what kind of air rifle we should equip the infantry with.

Gonna listen to Midrats (in lieu of actual work), but somehow our track record of late vis a vis China isn't gonna make me feel any better....

RhodeIslander said...

CORRECTION:   Replace FEB 2009  with   FEB 2008  in the above post.

Tom Mowry said...

Well so much for that idea, I do agree with you about not knowing what kind of ship they need, no one has thought about mission before this cluster started to snowball, I always thought they chased this littoral concept because no one to get left behind when the war on terror started....

Tom Mowry said...

yeah those priorities where part of the reason I needed to be done after 10 years, those who were rewarded where those that could play nice in the sand box with the other kids, my tolerance for stupid has always been low, stupid is as stupid does

Tom Mowry said...

<span>trust me so am I, but yeah you're right, it was a little embarrasing to back into a mine but it sure was better then hitting one at say even 16 knots, it would have been a really fine navy day at that point....No Higher Honor</span>

LT B said...

We have a mission to be diverse stopping the trafficing of persons using lean six sigma practices being a global force for good.  We won't see combat, it doesn't fit our paradigm. 

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