This will only be shocking to those who look at nothing but happy-talk PPT, vignettes and White Papers that are not critically reviewed - and those who actually believe in the Easter Bunny.The federal government has given powerful reasons to worry to the 180,000 residents of Guam, a balmy tropical island whose military importance derives from its location as by far the closest U.S. territory to China and North Korea.Slow roll. So, who wins this fight?
The Environmental Protection Agency said last month that the military buildup, as described in Pentagon documents, could trigger island-wide water shortages that would "fall disproportionately on a low income medically underserved population." It also said the buildup would overload sewage-treatment systems in a way that "may result in significant adverse public health impacts."
A report by the Government Accountability Office last year came to similar conclusions, saying the buildup would "substantially" tax Guam's infrastructure.
"We're trying to identify and understand the current conditions on Guam and the potential impact of the relocation," said Nancy Sutley, head of the White House Council on Environmental Quality, who on Tuesday will lead a delegation to the island. "There's no question that the environmental conditions on Guam are not ideal."Hey look - we can even include this in the "Take a Powder" label,
Besides a new Marine base and airfield, the buildup includes port dredging for a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, a project that would cause what the EPA describes as an "unacceptable" impact on 71 acres of a vibrant coral reef. The military, which owns 27 percent of the island, also wants to build a Marine firing range on land that includes one of the last undeveloped beachfront forests on Guam.
...
The Marine Corps is sensing a populist backlash on Guam, which is three times the size of the District of Columbia and more than 6,000 miles west of Los Angeles.
"I see a rising level of concern about how we are going to manage this," Lt. Gen. Keith J. Stalder, the Hawaii-based commander of Marine forces in the Pacific, said in a telephone interview. "I think it is becoming clearer every day that they need outside assistance."
Many residents have hoped that Obama -- a fellow Pacific islander, who was born in Hawaii and lived in Indonesia -- might understand their anxieties and unlock federal resources. The White House said Obama will visit Guam when his Asia trip is rescheduled, perhaps in June.I don't care who you are - that thar' is funny. And then this:
"I just want to remind President Obama that his story is our story," said Victoria-Lola Leon Guerrero, an English instructor at the University of Guam and a leader of a group opposing the buildup. She said her students read Obama's autobiography, "Dreams From My Father," focusing on a coming-of-age passage from his years in Hawaii, in which he describes his realization that he was "utterly alone."
"That's how we feel here," she said. "We feel like we are not being listened to, like we are not being respected."
...a third of the population receives food stamps and about 25 percent lives below the U.S. poverty level --Yep - you would do a lot better without a single US dollar.
Even more funny is the economically myopic.
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I don't hold anything against the citizens of Guam. They are great Americans - and too much is too much. I very much sympathize with them. I also feel sorry for the Sailors, Marines, and Airmen stationed or due to be stationed there. It is a hard place to be stationed now - squeeze that many Marines in there .... well ... there are better places to put Marines.
Now, back to the BRAC discussion ..... and LBG - could you please remind everyone again what Guam stands for in the Fleet?
"This is old-school colonialism all over again," said LisaLinda Natividad, an assistant professor of social work at the University of Guam and an activist opposing the buildup. "It boils down to our political status -- we are occupied territory."Silly Marxist - LisaLinda, not that other dude on page 101 of his book
.I don't hold anything against the citizens of Guam. They are great Americans - and too much is too much. I very much sympathize with them. I also feel sorry for the Sailors, Marines, and Airmen stationed or due to be stationed there. It is a hard place to be stationed now - squeeze that many Marines in there .... well ... there are better places to put Marines.
Now, back to the BRAC discussion ..... and LBG - could you please remind everyone again what Guam stands for in the Fleet?
32 comments:
hmm, what about spreading the targets/risk? As I see it that would be target rich environment for PRC IRBMs...
All I am hearing from this is a refrain of "Hands off Vieques!"
That worked out well, didn't it.
Guam is not a bad place actually. There are issues however. My economic model of Guam starts when the US came in and really built it up after WW2. The influx of American money but a good solid economy based on federal military jobs and dollars. Then in the 80's, they found tourism. Their economy shot up through the roof. They got gready and saw the military bases as more land to build Japanese play lands. So during the first BRAC years, they were screaming and spitting on guards (Angel Santos) and having little to no real representation in Congress, they were given what they wanted, a BRAC. They shut down the NAS there, moved a bunch of troops off etc. That cut out their stable economic platform, but the Japanese economy kept them afloat w/ tourism.
Then, the Asian economic failure hit and out went Guam's economy. They were hurting, when 9/11 completely shut down the travel to Guam. You could go to Tumon at 2100 and there would be just a few people on the street, the stip clubs were closing at 2200, all the Sailors were on 3 section watches, and the Japanese stayed in Japan. They began to court the military again
I worked for a retired E1 to O5 guy who was crusty as can be when I was stationed there. I think he said something like "there are supposed to be about 8000 Marines coming, w/ about 4000 of them single males. There is not enough pu##y around this island for all that testosterone. This will be bad." He didn't even address the environmental (water/sewage) concerns.
As for the acronym, it could be Give Up And Mastur (of your domain) or Give Us American Money. Both may apply on this one.
I loved it there. The job sucked, but the friends I made, the diving, soccer, hiking, and travel to Australia and other islands is quite nice. I go back to visit from time to time to see the kids I coached and visit w/ old friends. The Marines will change the island though. No doubt.
China wins, right?
Some background-this was all brought up in the DPRI discussions among the services in 2006. When the ideas were put forth three major objections were raised: 1) There was not enough training airspace at Iwakuni for CVW-5 AND the Marine Air Wing. 2) There were going to be infrastructure problems on Guam with that many Marines there-not to mention the added travel/other costs to get them where they needed to train-much less how you were going to get them where they needed to be if the OPLAN ever went off and 3) It still did not solve the issue of where the Marine Helos would go.
All of these issues were ignored as they wanted to get a deal with the Japanese. When the Japanese were presented a SIX BILLION Yen bill for all of the construction they choked on it. I think they finally agreed-but it took one hell of lot of arm twisting. Especially since it appeared Japanese construction firms were not going to be allowed to the work on Guam. (Japan relies on those investments to pay off construction firms).
Bottom line-we wanted so bad to throw the Japanese a bone on Okinawa-we got it bad. And it bought us nothing in the long run-as Hatoyama government is trying to back out of the key part of the deal, the relocation of Futenma
You know, if I were the government of the Phillippines, I'd be putting together a package to lease Subic Bay to the US.
And if I were the Vietnamese government, I might seriously consider a Cam Rahn Bay bid.
In the late 60s-early 70s, same thing...before the big tourist boom. You Americans suck. So the military got a pay day with $2 bills. Seems when all the business owners on Guam realized they were just about totally paid with $2 bills, the tune changed.
Like LT B, great place to dive, surf, hike....but the natives had a hand out. Dad worked land issues on the island resulting from the SEABEES and Corps of Engineers work following 7/21/44. Also was working the land acqusition for an ammo pier in one of the SW side bays.
Well, I guess we'll have to settle for bases on our own shores for defense now, and I'm sure no local communities will object to making a footprint for our military here.
Be careful what you wish for...
Greetings:
I used to have a sweetheart who worked with a bunch of Guamanians. They were really great people and we were invited to many of their celebrations. Along with the roasted fruit bat, they used pass around some nuts and leaves, the names of which I can no longer recall, that seemed to make everyone feel, how shall I say it, very copasetic.
Maybe the Marines should bring in a new supply and start passing it around.
There is an unused laaaaarge airfield on an island with a smallish population and a very small economy to the north. Tinian. A short ferry ride to Saipan (you bring the ferry), where there is an adequate airport and seaport, beaches, hotels, and pretty girls, some of them vacationing russians from Vlad and the West Siberian coast. Also Thai girls in the local clothing sweatshops and driving cabs. Most money is from middle class Japanese tourists, so the economy is down. Weather much the same as Guam. English language and american culture. Nice folks who need jobs. The flame trees on Navy Hill are very pretty and there is a nice big american cemetary and National Monument, not to mention the historic Suicide Cliffs on the north end of Saipan.
Downside? Tinian Harbor... Not so great. One bookstore on all of Saipan. The airfield is overdue for PMS, but the old airbase was waaaay big, now long abandoned.
Might be worth a closer look. Contact Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas Islands Rep in DC.
re: not enough pu$$y. Isn't that a reason to recycle? :)
Grandpa amen! spread out the targets so one nuke doesnt take them all out, and conventional missiles might have greater chance of missing something vital.
Also, for some in-depth defence someone can tell me what is the status of the Truk atoll? or Ulithi? Also Wake and Midway?
11B40 Beetlenut is the thing they chew.
EWOK, Truk is not a great place for all those people. Great diving, but as I recall in El Nino years, they dry up as the rains shift. Cholera becomes a problem as there is not a natural aquifer. The Navy often resupplies those areas in drought years. We may still have SeaBees around those areas for Civil Action Teams.
As far as water goes, I keep hearing about progress into research on cheap nano-tech deslinization... is the Navy funding any of that? It sure sounds like that'd be a cheap, effective way to deal with a *lot* of Navy-related issues.
Guam - land of the world's largest K-Mart and the only one that sells women's t-shirts in XXXXXL. Only place I know where the men ride in front of pickup and women in back since the women tend to significantly increase in gross tonnage over the years. Great food, great diving, good flying, but problems between space and species (female). Not enough of either. And where do you go when the next Cat 5 hurricane/cyclone comes trapsing thru? the support costs to put a/c on Tinian would be gihugent, but it does have acreage. That once sleepy little backwater can kiss paradise goodbye. Tee-times at Andersen will be harder to come by.
When I was there, the B-52 crews were too busy to go golfing. And trust me, there were lots and lots and lots of D models, and a few Hs in the revertments.
But then, there also was an NAS Agana, too. Orote Point airfield? Great for Boy Scout camping, and I found an 8" UXO projectile there amonst the tangan-tangan one time.
In 1962, Typhoon Karen whacked Guam, and blew pretty hard on Okinawa. Funny thing was, a few months later, Olive came by, worse than Karen, but Guam was a wreck, so it wasn't remembered as such a big storm in the collective memory, because there wasn't much left to take down.
<span>"<span>the only one that sells women's t-shirts in XXXXXL"</span></span>
<span><span> Now competing with most Walmarts in the Big PX
</span></span>
Agana was at the airport right?
Be interesting to see if the Philippine Senate would go for it. Even more interesting to see if they allowed anyone to go on liberty-in today's "were afraid of TIP" age.
Given the response from GovGuam, I would keep the marines just where they are at. Let the local mayor on okinawa suck it up and explain to his constiuents why his whining has kept those noisy marine defenders close by instead of way far away.
We sure aren't getting much of a deal from greedy Guam. Tinian is a fine spot for amphip training, although I wonder how much the mitigation costs will amount to from almost certain reef damage and forget about power and water, they are just barely making their own way. Gov Guam is just so full of it. 72 acres of reef damage from dredging. Right, pristine coral reefs in Apra harbor, not like that harbor is worth perserving. anymore. and how long have they piled up federal dollars for water without making improvements, let alone maintaining what they were given. Too bad the transfer from Okinawa is in the pipeline, Tinian and neigboring Saipan would have welcomed the dollars without quite so much blatent thievery as Guam seems to be pushing. Guam does have a Hooters and a Wild Bill's, but they will have trouble keeping staff with all the dollars chasing pu$$y.
<span>All I am hearing from this is a refrain of "Hands off Vieques!"
That worked out well, didn't it.</span>
Gotta love it when people get what they ask for and it smacks them in the face. If they were honest they would say, "Get out of here but keep sending the money."
Makes me wonder how the folks in Olongapo and Angeles City are doing these days.
Seems that we go through the "Let's Move Everything to Guam" drill as a solution to all our basing issues in the Western Pacific every decade or so. In the '70s, when we figured it would only be a matter of time until we were kicked out of the Philippines, we tried to convince ourselves that SRF Guam could be upgraded to be as good as SRF Subic. We spent three weeks in Guam at Christmas '76 in a vain attempt to expand the workload and experience of their SRF personnel (they did a nice job on our gig and MWB 'though) before heading up to Subic for another 10 days to do the work we really needed to have done. The CO and I also flew up to survey a hunk of rock north of Tinian called Farallon de Medinilla that they were hoping to turn into a bombing/NGFS range.
Over the years the Navy has tried to base a number of ships there ranging from the old Polaris/Poseidon boats and minesweepers to CLF and Prepo units. In the end, expansion beyond that has always been limited by Guam's isolation, poor industrial base, and those occasional typhoons. Not sure why this time would be any different.
<span>There is not enough pu##y around this island for all that testosterone. This will be bad.</span>
Even research seems to support this assessment:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/23/brizendine.male.brain/index.html?hpt=C2
Not that I have much use for shrinks in general but I'm kinda inclined to listen to an attractive redhead.
Oops.
Angeles has re-bounded sort of. They have direct flights from HK and Korea to the former Clark AB. Fields Avenue by all accounts is going strong.
C-dore,
FDM was a range when I was there. It was shut down briefly for a bit of time because some bird smoocher from New England (I think) said there was a rare bird on that island. After 9/11, we started bombing again after the courts basically said, "we lost Vieques we can't lose FDM while the bad guys have NY, NY to bomb." BTW, the bird species there is all over the place and the bombing does nothing to curb its breeding it seems.
LT B, I understood that they eventually turned the place into a range but it sure looked like a challenge to have to do NGFS there...small, low, and you'd probably have to go with an airborne spotter as there didn't seem to be much room for a ground spotter to operate safely. Suspect that the loss of the Kahoolawe and Tabones ranges led them to take the "least bad" solution.
Not to mention the NEX. ;)
The SEALs get plenty of range time w/ the bombers though. We would lay out the targets w/ 53's. Old CONEX boxes painted white. By we, I mean the other office in our division. I got to make tugboats targets. I never got to see them blow up though. :(
LT B, The first SINKEX I participated in was between Guam and the Philippines and involved a decommissioned YTM. Our ship (a BROOKE-class FFG) kicked off the event with a warshot SM-1 and for the next several hours the air wing and several DD/FFs blasted away at the thing with dummy bombs, BL&P, and eventually live ordnance. After each segment the spray would settle and the smoke would clear and we'd look out on the tug bobbing away there in the Western Pacific. Finally USS OKLAHOMA CITY (CLG 5) closed to point blank range and dispatched the target with her 6" main battery.
I think my first was hitting an old one in RIMPAC 2000 w/ our Harpoon. When I got to Guam, we sunk a power barge. The SEALs went out and put charges around her. Dropped right quick. Good times. Blowing stuff up. I got to go to the det pit w/ the EOD guys and blow up about 1200 lbs of WW2 ordnance we pulled out of Apra Harbor. THAT was a LOT of fun. :)
LT B, As an aside, the FFG that I refer to in this post ended her life in a JTFX SINKEX. Not sure whether she went down because of damage or if the SEALs had to go out and sink her. Based on my experience, however, assume it was the latter.
I wonder. When we sink our first LCS in an exercise, will sink easier than the FFGs? I suspect it will.
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