Thursday, August 05, 2010

Diversity Thursday

I like pictures. Graphs are better.

A few presents came in the 'ole inbox recently - the breakdown by race/ethnic group from the last E-9 and E-8 boards from FY09 and FY10.

To make things easy and to help smooth out some of the statistic bumps, I have combined all four data sets. Sorry they don't have the stats for non-Hispanic whites, but you can figure it out. The overall numbers were ~1/3+ minority.

The first bar is the average for all, and the long horizontal black line carries it across. The shaded area is one standard deviation from the average.

The numbers speak for themselves. Sorry I can't get this smoother, but the order of the bars are "All, Minority, Female, Two-fer, American Indian/Alaskan Native, Asian, Black/African American, Hawaiian/Pacific Islander, mixed, Hispanic." Oh, a Two-fer is a minority female.

What does this tell us? Well - though I would love to let a dozen interns pick each eligible person apart to identify racial self-identification fraud (something we have identified here before through Flag Rank) - it tells me that of all the millions to billions of taxpayer dollars we spend on the Diversity Industry ... what for?

They love to use numbers and count beans ... so I'll play their game. If you think there is institutional racism, then it must be against Asians and for the

If we go back to Asian and Pacific Islander by combining the two ... then it is all a wash.

Non-problem solved ... can we get back to work now? Oh, I know you will have to cut off millions to billions of dollars in payouts for the Diversity Industry, Grievance Industry, and all that BA/NMP you have promoting sectarianism out there .... OK, I'll let you keep 20% of them - just because Gen X, Gen Y, and Millennials hate to see Boomers totally lost in the future. We'll let you have a little of your '70s until you depart; then we'll fix things once your power is mostly gone.


The Usual Suspect said...

Statistically speaking, and correcting for the Asian/Pacific Islander disconnect (they are usually combined  on all the gov't forms I have seen), there is no discernable problem here.  Nothing to see here Diversity Bullies, let's keep moving along.  Why didn't they just break it out by ARMY/USMC green and Navy/Air Force blue? 

FCC said...

Wow, "Two-Fer."  You can't make this stuff up.

SJBill said...

Already know this.

My son walked into a Navy recruiting office and was told by a Filipino and a Vietnamese recruiter, "We really have no requirements for someone like you right now".

So if you're White (upper case intentionally used becuase all other Special Categories do) and wish to serve your country, you can't. Pity, he'd have been the fourth generation of Navy in our family.

MR T's Haircut said...

Bill,  I would cal your congress critter.. or better yet, call the MEPS OIC,, the phone tree is a little hard to navigate but you can find out who that is.. then tell that MEPS OIC, about your visit and THEN call your congress critter

cdrsalamander said...

Tell him you are calling your congressman ... and then Senator Webb.  Then actually do it.  Then send an email to the editorial POC at the Washington Times.  Email me with a short version of your story and your contact information and I will send in on.

I am serious - are you?

QMC(SS)(Ret) said...

Between this and last week's DivThu post, I had a vision.  Of Roughead and Ferguson being dragged into a SASC hearing.  Well, since I'm a big Quentin Tarantino fan, it went something like this:

Roughead: I'm sorry, I didn't get your name. I got yours, Senator McCain, right? But I didn't get yours...
Levin: My name's Senator Levin. And your a$$ ain't talkin' your way out of this $hit.
Roughead: No, no, I just want you to know... I just want you to know how sorry we are that things got so mucked up with us and Senator Webb. We got into this thing with the best intentions and I never...
Levin: [Levin shoots VADM Ferguson sitting next to Roughead] I'm sorry, did I break your concentration? I didn't mean to do that. Please, continue, you were saying something about best intentions. What's the matter? Oh, you were finished! Well, allow me to retort. What does Senator Webb look like?
Roughead: What?
Levin: What country are you from?
Roughead: What? What? Wh - ?
Levin: "What" ain't no country I've ever heard of. They speak English in What?
Roughead: What?
Levin: English, motherpucker, do you speak it?
Roughead: Yes! Yes!
Levin: Then you know what I'm sayin'!
Roughead: Yes!
Levin: Describe what Senator Webb looks like!
Roughead: What?
Levin: Say 'what' again. Say 'what' again, I dare you, I double dare you motherpucker, say what one more Goddamn time!

MR T's Haircut said...

What Phib said.

Byron said...

Oh, yeah, I'd beat on these two sorry excuses for sailors like a bass drum. If my grandson wanted to join the Navy like his dad, you can believe that Granpa is going to be sure it happens or someone is gonna be missing five pounds of ass cheek.

SJBill said...

Hell yeah, we are going to make an impact and enjoy the process - we've barely begun.
SNO is just 17 and has to complete his senior year in high school. He'll be back at the Recruiting office soon - with me.
As a contrast, the SSgt on duty at the Marine Corps Recruiting Station next door has a complete program lined-up.

ActusRhesus said...

I can't be the only person offended by the term "two-fer".

way to reduce a sailor to a metric.  Two metrics, in fact!

cdrsalamander said...

For the record; two-fer is a term I used and cannot be found in the source document.  The phrase twofer is a commonly used slang term in the diversity branch of the HR world.  I assumed, wrongly it seems, that more of you would be fans of 30 Rock

I picked the term primarily because "Minority-Female" was too long to fit on the graph, and the abbreviation "Min-Fem" I thought would give the vapors to too many readers who would over think it.  Sigh.  No matter what I do, someone leaves Thursday with their panties in a wad.  Wait ... I used panty and wad .... will that cause offense too?   O:-)

DMO5 said...

Boomer guilt unabated. That these stats are even compiled by some wonk GS13 or 0-5 & staff is a travesty. What the hell does lucky melanin have to do with enlisted promotions?

And I've heard two-fer many a time. 8-)  and I ain't one unfortunately.

The Usual Suspect said...

Three-fer is only months away

Curtis said...

We do know how sensitive some people are...There's just no  ajusting for taste when the taste is rancid.

It is very nearly impossible to discuss some things and to argue or debate them is impossible in a purely PC environment. 

Byron said...

So Curtis, you're saying that Bill is a liar? Stand by for heavy rolls...

Anonymous said...

This doesn't sound right.  Is there something else that you are not talking about -- Bad grades so far?  ASVAB score?  (Is it still called that?)  Prior conviction?  Medical issue?

Byron said...

Bill is a retired Naval Aviator of senior rank, well known to the blogging world. If he says it, I believe it without question. I have no reason to believe that Bill would be dishonorable about this.

cdrsalamander said...

Byron speaks with big medicine.  Bill is all that and more in his hometown.  That is why he will make an impact.  They had no idea who they were dealing with.  They are used to bully-boy'n folks.  They pushed the wrong guy.

Byron said...

Truth is ALWAYS big medicine...

Grumpy Old Ham said...

I've heard "two-fer" many times, and I'm a "zero-fer".  As someone famous reportedly said, "We illustrate absurdity, by being absurd."  ;)

I refuse to watch a self-licking ice cream cone of a show that glorifies the LSM, on principle.  They only understand ratings, and I'll be damned if I'm going to add to their numbers.

Curtis said...

Never ever not even once heard of recruiters telling an eligible potential recruit to FOAD.  Never happen.  There is either more to the story or there is no story.

Standing by the inclinometer.

Byron said...

Curtis, what part of, Bill is a stand up guy, didn't you understand? You need to get the grits out of your ears son? Steel Jaw Bill is well known to us, unlike you, who is not. Given who we're going to believe or not, well, you got a whole lot of proving to do before you get more than a snort out of the Porch, podna.

Did you not see what Salamander said? Oh, got grits in your eyes too.

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, I don't have any trouble believing him especially if the recruiters had already made their quota (or at least "that" quota) for the month.  Better for their stats if he comes back next month when they might need him to "make mission".

Moreover, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that the Marines are doing everything they can to get him on the bus to the nearest MCRD.  "A bird in the hand..."

LT B said...

Heard a story about a CO taking his little girl to the Navy Recruiting office.  Walks in w/ all her paperwork for a scheduled meet w/ the recruiter.  Sailor has decided he did not want to meet the Officer and his little girl for the meet.  There are a couple of people also waiting.  Man in a Crimson T-shirt is waiting and says, "Screw this!  I'm walking next door to the Marine recruiting office."  See where this is going?  He walks and others follow and strangely, he disappears as a Marine in uniform takes the young people into the loving embrace that only a Marine recruiter can embody.  Daddy's little girl is a Marine now, and the recruiting Sailor is out his quota.  The guy in the crimson shirt told the dad that  he scoops up more recruits by that method because the Navy recruiter stands up a lot of possible recruits. 

LT B said...

I think two-fer meant something totally different to me than it did to you guys.   ;)

C-dore 14 said...

LT B, I'll have to share this with my son-in-law who spent a tour as a USMC recruiter in Indianapolis.

ActusRhesus said...

ok.  bantering among peers, it doesn't bother me.  But if the navy were to adopt it as some official label of diverseyness, I'd barf.

former_co said...

I would like to draw attention to the following article & comments

<p>I know for a fact that in Naval Aviation there was an excel spreadsheet created to track "all" minority officers.
</p><p>Well for 2 years running the CNO & top brass were trying to "fix" our lack of diversity in senior ranks of the Navy and he got tired of getting the 'LTJG Salute' (I Don't Know shoulder shrugs) from his 3 Stars, as they didn't even know who in their respective communities were their rising star minority officers (ie, future flag officers).
</p><p>So, in a very typical and correct business-minded way (because we run the Navy like a business these days... another rant for another time...) the 3 Stars decided to do some "delta" management and put efforts into practice in order to close the gap between where we stand today and where we, as a navy, want to be in the future. And there's some really good reasons why we need to become a more diverse force, top among them is that fact that our recruiting pool for future officers has drastically changed. Most officers are recruited from colleges & universities, and the 4 year degree granting institutions in the US are no longer graduating a majority of white males. (In fact, I think 2008 the graduating classes were forecast to be the greater than 50% female and less than 50% white and the future is even more drastically skewed against our tradition pool of white-male candidates. Never mind if factor in for drugs, obesity, etc... our future pool of available talent from which to draw our officer corps has drastically changed and we need to get a handle on it, now!)

former_co said...

<p>Okay, so from a business mindset, so far so good. Let's do the DELTA analysis, like a good 3-Star staff should:
</p><p>We need to measure/assess where our minority officers are at today and come up with some bridging strategies to get them to where we want them to be in the future.
</p><p>Well, here's where it gets sticky... so we gather a list of all female and/or minority officers (who collects that list and how it maintained/controlled? problem #1, do we determine you're a minority because you look like one? is that fair to those who don't look like one, what ever that even means?)
</p><p>Problem #2, how do we assess the career potential of those on the list (I won't even address if its good or bad to be a minority yet on (or off) the list...). Well in Naval Aviation, they emailed the list out for comment to all of the CO's, XO's and O-6's in the community and encouraged us to comment on the performance of anyone on the list, whether we had ever served with them or not! (my take on that follows).
</p><p>Then problem #3, if we now know where we as a Navy stand for our minority officers and want to plot some sort of trajectory or target, aren't we really setting quota's? (which personally, I'd be okay with, just be transparent and call it what it is... I'd be perfectly OK if the DoD said your Officer Corp must mirror the Enlisted representation and set quotas on both sides to meet that goal.)

former_co said...

<p>So you can see, what started out as a reasonable task from the CNO to his 3-stars to be able to get their hands around the future of the US Navy's lack of minority officers and our inability to attract the future pool of talent due to a lack of diversity, quickly fell apart.
</p><p>The simple solution? How about CNO direct all of his 3-Stars to personally track & mentor all of their front runners, regardless of sex, race, ethnicity... hmmm, too simple? Okay, maybe just collect these names on a list to be maintained at our Navy Personnel Command and when a front-runner minority officer gets a bad fitness reoprt or takes a poor choice of orders, have someone at NPC ready to intervene and if nothing else, collect the data on the why's and how's of that loss to our pool of diverse officers. (Back in the day, minority officers were almost forcibly sent to recruiting duty and/or training duty, in order to help attract, recruit & train more minorities. Sounds like good plan; however our promotions don't favor these assignments and just about an entire generation of minority officers had their careers killed because of it).
</p><p>Finally, my reply to the request for comment (via excel spreadsheet w/ up, even or down arrows on every minority officer in my community) was that I already do that via officially sanctioned (and legal) means, they're called FITREPS. If my Commodore had wanted any info my Junior Officers, he could use the Fitness Reporting System via Navy Personnel Command, or some other legally sanctioned means - that I would refuse any tracking monitiring system outside of official channels. Furthermore, if any of my fellow CO's felt they had some insight on one of my JO's, they could call me and I would have told them where to put their opinions, too. (Incidentally, when this information was solicited, my Commodore was in Millington Tenn sitting on the Aviation Command Screen board, selecting future CO's. Now, I have no way in knowing if he even saw this list, but the timing and appearance of impropriety was blatantly inappropriate to me.)
</p><p>So, back to the question at hand...I stand behind this idea but it was executed extremely poorly by a bunch of folks who quite frankly a) never thought it through b) never went back to the boss & said, hey is this what you really meant? and c) didn't have the balls (or scarier yet, brains?) to say, "The execution of this plan just isn't right."

former_co said...

<span>But maybe it's just me that doesn't "get it" - my objections got me nothing but the lowest ranking possible from my boss and thus ended an otherwise promising career (this post maybe the final nail there, as well...).</span>

thanks for reading this far along...

Redeye80 said...

Sorry, you left me laughing at the FITREP part. 

As a Department Head in a Training Command Squadron in the P-cola, I was part of the ranking process which was clearly a good old boy, who can scream the loudest system.  I was shocked at the process. More importantly, the CO got up and said it really didn't matter how well you did you job as an instructor what counted was what you did in squadron sanctioned as extracirricular activities (community outreach, etc).

As you can guess, I am not of the same cloth but I feel you pain.

But the question to you, do you sleep well because you did the right thing?

Byron said...

I expect he does.

Byron said...

Sierra Hotel, former CO. It's the Navy's loss and not yours. Welcome to Phibian's Front Porch. Grab a beer, a handful of boiled peanuts and chew the fat while the boiled shrimp cook away.

sobersubmrnr said...

Oh yeah, Bill. Do what Sal says. That's an outrage and cannot be allowed to slide. You've gotta fight evil where you find it and you just found it.

Grumpy Old Ham said...

related to sportsman's double, perhaps?  ;)

(Kristen warning applies for web searches on that phrase...)

Sparticus said...

Is this how an incompetent, negligent, irresponsible, derelict, and unfit "leader" (used loosely) is promoted and allowed/tolerated to beat the crap out of two crews and escapes shitcanning until the end of the second CO tour. Please tell me that her name was not on a protected list and her ISIC could not flush her because she had "immunity" or a get out of jail card. Please tell me that this is not as broke as I am thinking that it is.

Curtis said...

Dude, you like spelled it out.  Don't you know how risky that is?  Somebody might actually take offense that you actually know how to spell the words.

That last 3 years on active duty I was so blessed by a CWO2 N1 who never ever let anything like this show up in front of me.  God Bless her.

Curtis said...

Good grief!  You knew EM2 Gloria?  Outstanding petty officer and electrician.  He and EM1 Daplas kept me on my toes.

Curtis said...

The part of me that is a retired CAPTAIN of the USN.  Stuff that in your little pipe and smoke it.

The part of me that my dad brings as a retired general of the USA and graduate of the class of 57 at West Point.

The part of me that my grandfather brought as a retired Colonel of the USA and graduate of the class of 35 at West Point.

What part did you miss?

You want to throw down your creds or Bills?  Go for it.

Curtis said...


You really and trully think that recruiters pushed away a potential recruit?  You  must know how hard those poor bastards work to get their quota and then some.  Did they suddenly find a hate SJBILL clause in their contract with America? Was there an "I hate whitey!" exception in their recruitment contract?

Seriously, you and Bryon need to get the facts before tossing the canards.

Curtis said...

Fellow Captain,

Did you seriously say that navy recruiters told a potential recruit to piss off now in order that they could then 'recruit' him later?

I'm not 18 and yet I would never again consider joining an organization that did that to me at that age.

I could most certainly understand if the two had asked him to come back next month if they had quota issues but this looked like he was given an invitation to FOAD.  I can't take that seriously since it is very unlikely in spite of sal's and byrons' take on how recruiting works.

Curtis said...

Watched the promotion boards select officers for promotion and it was clear that they let the  CO screening boards do their work for them.  Screen for command and one was promoted 06.  Fail to screen for command and it was over.  I never saw an officer who made 06 who had failed to screen for command.   Pathetic really.

Curtis said...

Wow man.  We so disagree.

We appoint officers to lead men into combat not to fill any sort of quota.  I'm like everybody here.  I remember all of them.  The COs, XOs, Department Heads, officers, chiefs and my guys from 4 ships like it was yesterday.  Race had nothing to do with it. The fact that the Bosun wrote me up twice was offset by the First LT writing me up 3 times.  They were black and white and altogether mean.

They were also pretty stupid.  I mean, seriously.  Most people would take a second defeat at killing me as a sign.  On the other hand, I'm not sure either of them could read.

Curtis said...


Thats me on the right.  Guess who else is there.

Curtis said...

Oh come on!  You seriously write this crap as if malignant navy recruiters are out to get SJ BILL.  What planet do you guys live on?  I'm a recruiter and I'm so NOT going to RECRUIT you dude!  You have a bad attitude or negative karma or something so dire that you cannot be a piece or parcel of my navy?

Get real.

As you defend this malarky you all lose credibility.  Major credibility.  I asked.  Unblemished record, want to join, high school graduate, WELCOME to the USN.

Seriously, what did you fools think?

A really senior naval person sends.

former_co said...

thanks for the feedback, folks. and yeah, I sleep well at night knowing I stood up for what was blatantly wrong (and possibly illegal).

Of course, I'm not in favor of setting quota's or anything of the sort; however, if the US Gov't decides that what we need to do, then let's just be transparent about it.

If it were up to me, I would assign everyone a service number and your rankings, fitreps and promotions would all be done by that nameless, faceless, colorless number - no pictures, asterisks or whatever to identify you as anything more than just the sum total of your accomplishments to date - in other words, return the USN to its roots, he who does the best stuff should get more stuff to do, he who leads the best should get more leadership opportunities - a meritocracy that is blind to race or sex.

Byron said...

Curtis, we're talking about the promotion process of TODAY, as enumerated by CNO and CJCS...go read last Thursdays DivThur. CNO damns himself out of his own words. And yes, I stand by what Bill says.

Go read it. Then come back and tell us that there is no chance in hell that a recruiter today (not of your days) would actively recruit according to quotas and deny a white recruit.

UltimaRatioRegis said...


I can and will believe SJBill in his assertions.  I also worked closely with the accessions process.  Once a quota of a certain category is met, a recrruiter will often tell a recruit of that category to come back later when that recruiter "needs" him to make mission.  The fact that such quotas are based on race and ethnicity is indeed "malignant". 

And yes, that is a big deal.  Once again, reverse the colors and effects and imagine the outcry.  A black father with his son who is told, in essence, "I have enough of 'you people' for the month, thank you anyway". 

You couldn't get Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton off the TV.  And with some reason.

Curtis said...

You guys are making MY point.  No recruiter in the world tells a potential recruit to FOAD.  They may ask him to come back next month but I don't really see that as likely either.

How about I walk down to my local recruiters, Army, Navy, Marine and ask them how they'd treat any young man who came knocking?  What's hard about that?  I'm going to talk to a Staff Sergeant or 2nd Class Petty Officer and say, "do you tell nice well qualified young men that want to join to fturk off and die?"

Yeah, I didn't think so.

17 years old.  Isn't that disqualifying?  I can see every recruiter looking right in the eyes of such a candidate and telling him to come back when he is a man and not a boy.  18 is a man's age but still 3 years too young to legally quaff.

There is a presumption here and it runs throughout Sals blog.  My daughter went to the recruiters office and tried to sign up with the navy but they wouldn't have her in our fine service. Baeatyprds!

Of course, she's only 7.

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, Take a deep breath.  According to SJBill the recruiters didn't tell the kid to FOAD, they told him that they didn't have "any requirements" for him at the time.  Don't know if they told him to "come back later" but, having known my share of recruiters (and District and Area Commanders) over the years I think it's possible.  Don't forget that it's a "buyer's market" for the Navy and Air Force right now compared to the other two services and that may relieve some of the pressure as well.

Also, don't overlook the possibility that these guys just didn't give a s*** that day.  There are plenty of recruiters who aren't "Sailor of the Year" types.  From the stories some of my friends have told me over the years that's a distinct possibility as well.

C-dore 14 said...

URR, Agree with you there.  One of my former COs had his career come to an end for just that reason.  He was a District CO and although his folks routinely recruited their quotas for AEF, Nuc Power, OCS, etc., he could never make his General Detail (GENDET) quota which, unfortunately, was where the pressure was at the time.

C-dore 14 said...

co, Think that you called this one correctly, especially the illegal part.  What's disturbing here is a basic distrust by the leadership in the fairness of the FITREP/selection process.  If it's come to that, then we have bigger problems than we want to admit. 

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, Unless I misunderstood your comment you make it sound like this is a bad thing.  Maybe I'm old fashioned but I think that a successful command tour should be a prerequisite for selection to O-6.  To do otherwise penalizes those who take on the responsibilities (and stress) of command in favor of the professional staff officer who does not.  

Curtis said...

I had a SEAL 05 who laid his records before me.  He was ranked 1 of 41 on his FITREPS going back years at a Joint Command.  He was also a TAR.  He did not command any of the SEAL TEAMS.  He could of.  Would have done great things.  He looked at my CAR and asked how in the world did a guy like me get one of those and I told him.  He told me about being there when Black Hawk Down went down.  He was on a roof nearby with his platoon.  His CAR had considerably more blood and guts than mine.

The Chief of Staff was likewise distressed.  Absolutely the finest officer I ever knew.  He took some time off to serve as a deputy sherrif before coming back in as a TAR.  Professional to the bone.

Neither one of them had been motivated to get that stupid military professional education block ticked(JPME).  I did it way back as a LCDR simply because it was offered at Coast Guard Island and I was within biking range and liked to read.  S&P was fun. NSDM sucked.  That's where I met our navy's newest and cutest admiral.

1 of 41 man.  We told that man to go home and sit down based on a stupid CO screening board result.

I think that the process is a little broken.

Curtis said...

So, the Bosun.  Easily the meanest man I ever knew.  Ever.  Left LaSalle to be OIC of some brig in Texas.  Felt sorry for those guys.
Zero Black officers on second ship in San Diego.  Ever.
One Ball Mike on 3rd Ship.  Outstanding officer and my DCA.
Lame and stupid LT on 4th ship.  4 years onboard and never qualified as either an OOD or SWO.  Put him on the watchbill for the first time in his life.  He was my ACDO every other day until he left.

When I worked at SURFPAC I used to see nonsense go out and would laugh and say, it would hit my ship and bounce off.  We'd no more comply with that then we would take hostages.  We were bad sailors!  lying cheating and stealing!  God I had fun in the navy.

Curtis said...

Perhaps and I doubt it.

Not one recruiter ever told a potential solid of record recruit to fuck off.  17.  "OK boy, come back when you're 18 and a high school grad."  More to the damned story.

Guess how I know this.

a really senior naval person sends since that matters so much here

Curtis said...

GENDETS were like brig rats.  They got screwed by their recruiters.  Did you not notice that?  They were forced to strike for any rating at all in order to get out of deck.  And they did.

I had an awful lot of COs, far more than you can imagine thanks to the MSO Gulf rotations.  None of them got sacked.  Some were played.

Curtis said...


You idiot.  You missed the whole 17 thing and NOT a high school graduate. 

Yeah, you pissed me off.

The navy doesn't want people that can't even graduate from high school.   Just what the ftuck made you think we wanted people who could not graduate from high school? We have complex weapon systems and engineering systems and we need some smart people to operate them.  We don't need losers who cannot even make it out of high school with a passing grade.

I used to be a CHENG.  It was way funner than being XO or CO.  I was also a FCO.  Those prima donnas were a true pain in the ass.  Outside SRF Jubail I have nothing but contempt for yardbirds.

Feel any better?


MR T's Haircut said...

<span>hey Curtis, 
I JOINED when I was 17.. I was man enough to climb from GENDET Seaman Recruit to CWO4.. so spare me the patronization.. </span>
<span>I DIDNT have a high school diploma yet (Had a "Will Grad" certificate due to Calif age requirements for grad at the time)... 
You are managing to step on everyones toes on the porch as you come back from the head trailing shit paper on your shoes.... and you didnt even ask any of us if we wanted a beer...</span>

MR T's Haircut said...

Curtis, maybe the Bos'n just didnt like you?  Have you thought of that?  I always got along fine with them.. but I agree on the reading challenges.. they can also barely write.

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, You made a broad generalization about command and the promotion process and then responded to my comments with two very specific examples involving TAR officers and, I assume, the Reserve promotion process.  I can't comment about the community as I've had little to do with it beyond having a TAR O-6 as my Readiness DESRON Commander in the late '80s and reviewing the records of TAR SWOs that came before me in a couple of community selection boards.  

Over the years I too have known good SWOs who have not been selected for command for a variety of reasons.  (Heck, I knew a guy with a Navy Cross who didn't select for O-5 because of a mediocre DH tour and a poor XO tour).  Most, but not all, have to do with the numbers of commands available and without having been on his selection board, neither of us know the reasons why your TAR Special Warfare O-5 failed to screen for command.  

I've also known a few, like the guy who relieved me as XO, who failed to complete a well publicized and easy to fulfill requirement because they thought it was "stupid" or unnecessary.  That's certainly their right but they do so at their own peril.

Yes, there are things wrong with the selection and promotion process that need to be addressed.  Sometimes good guys get passed over but, promotion opportunity being what it is, I can't agree that someone who has completed command should be passed over while someone who has never held one is promoted in his/her stead.

Curtis said...

Then we disagree.  I have known some extremely awful COs who nevertheless completed command tours.  If the O-5 CO screen is all that is needed to make the cut why not do away with the 06 screen?  Seems both redundant and totally useless.  Screened for command, successful tour, you get to be an 06 in due course.  Fail to screen for command, adjust oneself to being an O5 and surrender all hope of promotion.  That is how it is.

Nevertheless, we are now a navy of staffs.  Lots and lots of them.  Way too many of them could use bright, motivated officers who still think that they have the potential to promote instead of the rather bitter angry ones that know that they'll never ever grasp the brass ring. 

When we look at the numbers, how many O5 commands remain for SWOs or others?  As they dwindle so does the number of 05 CO selects.  I once sat down across the desk from the CO of the Brig at Miramar and we discussed a topic that had meaning to us.  He was more than a little bitter....."screeing for command I thought I'd get a squadron not a hojougshg brig."

Did you see the incentive pay that SWO 06 were paid a few years ago?  $70/year for 06 with over 24 years.  We had something like 320 too few.  Never thought I could use those words without laughing out loud.

Curtis said...

No No.  He didn't just not like me.  He hated me.  Went off to be OIC of the Brig at Corpus.  Used to have his divisions up at 0500 so they could wipe the dew off the deck, guns and windlasses before the Admiral heloed aboard.

We appear to be off on the wrong foot but seriously, were you ever written up in the navy and had to go to XOI?  I wasn't joking about this LDO LT and his idiot boss LCDR writing me up 5 times on first ship and going to XOI with my boss.  They tried to get me for everything from 'forcing a safeguard' to 'failure to obey a direct order.'  Kind of pathetic really.  One of my dozen or so colateral jobs was ship's legal officer.  Got to correct all the typos in my idiot MAC's charge sheets and refer him to the correct language direct from the MCM to get the charges against me all right and proper.

Have I ever written how much I loved serving the navy for all those years?  God it was so fun!

I was a very bad officer and got written up about 4 more times as FCO on a DD and as CHENG.

Bad officer!  Bad!

Denigrating!  LDOs rule!  Well, OK, not when we lock them out of their staterooms all the time, toss their disgusting pipes over the side and otherwise enjoy their company.  For which, as mess treasurer, I charged them all a pretty penny.  Every month.

The new DCA used to play a game with the XO who was President of the Mess.  He'd bring along something somebody had found in the bilge and put it on the XO's salad plate prior to his exalted entrance for lunch.  The XO would gaze upon it, curious and then ask the man who always sat to his immediate right, "what is it" and the CHOP would look at something on a salad plate that almost looked like a pineapple slice or fois gras and gurk.  Everybody would always laugh because what that thing looked like was so close to looking like food.

Curtis said...


You've been posting here for awhile.  I'm not sure how you missed that almost none of us have any faith in the leadership of the USN.  I might refer to them as a dismal bunch and others could and would describe them as a shower of sh*t.  Absolute crap ships.  A focus on diversity that rivals the effort we spent opposing the USSR.  More with less.

I worked tirelessly for 3 years to let my guys spend 14 months at home between middle east rotations.  Half of them were reservists.  Thousands of people.    I would laugh, sorry Joe, as the active components took 2 years to come up to speed while we could and did deploy one reserve squadron after the next whilst giving them 2 months to come up to battle speed before deploying them.

MR T's Haircut said...


under it all, I can tell youre not a bad fellow... dont try so hard... 

Grandpa Bluewater said...


It's been a decade or so since I had a fitrep, so I'm a tad out of the loop. If I hadda bet, I'd bet we have bigger problems than we want to admit. I smells the early 70's, me buckos, or something equally rotten, and I didn't like the smell back then.

Put me down with former CO, although some days I think every one should slide over to the Coast Guard every five years and demo their STCW basic skills, for the same reason the Marines shoot for score every year. It helps to remind folks what the basics are, and to show the young'ns that respect for seniors is due them for what they still know and still can do.

Not to mention keeping the rust off the basic skills locker dogs. What did we used to call it...oh yeah, preventative maintenence.

Curtis said...


My commodore and I once shared some very harsh words.  I cared very much but I never expected promotion to Admiral.  If I had not cared I would not have found myself there. Turns out 3 of my peers shared the same experience.  There appears to be one or more temporate reasoned guys herabouts.  You may find some benefit in reading their words.

I always cared. Nobody but nobody ever screwed with the people who worked for me.

Old NFO said...

<p><span>I sometimes wonder, was the Navy of seventy years ago bogged down in similar bullshit minutia?  Were there issues that had nothing to do with combat effectiveness that took up everyone’s time?  Was actual war fighting capability the last thing flag officers cared or worried about?  Pearl Harbor likely ended hundreds of careers, a similar event today would find us almost completely staffed with unprepared officers and units to whom actual combat was never a primary consideration.</span>
</p><p><span>The other thing is, what will happen when our military, especially the Navy, gets involved in a fight where we do not have an overwhelming technological edge?  If,  twenty years from now, China has built up their Navy and decides the US no longer has any business having ships beyond Hawaii?  How will our culturally diverse, gay celebrating, feminist dominated, affirmative action Navy fare against an enemy whose technology is equal to ours, or better, and which has spent it’s time concentrating on how to kill people, break things and generally kick ass rather than soothe the sensitive feelings of the perpetually aggrieved.  </span>

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Please insert after "former CO", I favor a "meritocracy that is blind to sex and race" in my last previous post.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Curtis:  Courtesy is the grease that lubricates the interlocking humans (vital components) of any organization while it is working. Without it, the outfit won't work very well very long.

I'm sure sure you were a fine specimen of whatever you were back when you did something in the Navy. And are still if you still do.

So how about can the ad hominem attacks on anybody here who doesn't notice the tablets you brought down from the mountain. They are not adding to quality of the discussion and you are subtracting from, not adding to your own credibility.

Curtis said...

The new Warrant DCA, he had come off a CG where he was a member of the wardroom mess.  He most ernestly told me to avoid CG at all costs because those guys had absolutely no sense of humor.

I watched in amazement as an USNA grad piloted us into giving Wainright a little dent in Manama.  Talk about no sense of humor!  Navy Red lit off, MCM tac lit off, MCM Admin lit off and seriously, it was like a 4 inch dent.  How much damage could a wooden ship do to a cruiser?

I tell stories. Every word is true.  I never lie or prevaricate in spite of my motto.

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, I haven't missed anything.  

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, Yes, I've known some awful COs who were promoted but I've also known more than one good one who completed their tours but failed to select because they'd gotten "across the breaker" with their Commodores and got a bad FITREP breakout.  The same board that passed over one of these guys selected a couple of non-command screened officers (one 1110 and one 1310) who had made themselves "essential" to their respective 4-stars.  Neither of them possessed any unique technical knowledge that would have been of exceptional benefit to the Navy...they were just good staff officers.  That's the stuff I object to.

C-dore 14 said...

Grandpa, I think that most of us agree with that.

Curtis said...

I think we've nodded at each other and accepted some things.  Perhaps not.

You just correct me if I'm wrong.  Unless your name is Gadsen and then I'll just shut up since I had tremendous respect for that CWO4.  After he replaced LT David as BOSUN we no longer pressed a rusty screw driver into the boat engineer's hands and told him to drive it into the kidney of the idiot driving the boats when he did his usual "I have two engines and don't need no stinking rudder since I can cycle them faster then hell and utterly defeat the purpose of using a rudder anyway. While ripping open the titanium hull on the stern gate."

Tell me something CWO4.  I was Auxo on LPD3/AGF3/COMIDEASTFOR flagship.  The GENDETS there were treated like slaves by the BOSUN until CWO4 Gadsen got there.  On second ship if we had any GENDET slaves I was unaware.  They worked for OPS and my focus was on some other things.  On 3rd and 4th ships those GENDETS worked their BUTTS off to get out of deck.

What part did I miss about guys that signed on the dotted line and failed not only to get A school but C school out of  it?  You know, back in the late 80s when I used to sleep on my former Senior Chiefs couch in Seattle, he told me that half a dozen universities told him that with 4 credit hours of liberal arts his navy education as an electrician Master Chief would see him earn a Bachelor of Science Degree.  I spelled it out lest we mistake BS for something else I did not mean.

So, you went in GENDET and struck for?

On second ship, the BMCS and me talked.  I could do that since FCO have damn all to do with deck types.  BMCS, 12 years in.  He told me how he'd chosen his rate.  REALLY REALLY Smart guy.  He figured he'd rise pretty quickly in a well, you know.  250 pound BM3, six years on the job, jumped onto a 16k weapons and cargo elevator from about 10 feet up while it was hanging on a couple of chainfalls attached to the deck and overhead by hasty welds.  GENDET.  I thought me and the elevator and the idiot were all off for a hasty ride to the LFORM magazine before falling through the bottom of the ship.

That we have quotas for GENDETS just tells me that that we're doing something else wrong.  Again.

Curtis said...

And most likely wouldn't buy you one.

What made you the righteous crusader?  Got a sash?

Bite me.

C-dore 14 said...

MTH, I've always liked WOs since my MIDN 1/C WESTPAC cruise aboard an LKA.  Other Mids get the sharp young SWO Ltjg for their "running mate"...mine was the Warrant Electrician.  One night he and his good buddy, the Warrant Machinist, took me out for my first liberty in Olongapo City.  I lived to tell the tale.

"As the twig is bent..."

Curtis said...


Did you little note or never wonder that the host of this place has an agenda that calls for the total downfall and emasculation of the current navy?  Fowler, Mullen et al?  It totally escaped you did it?

From time to time I recall an older navy.  I write about it here.  I get attacked here.  I respond. 

You got an ad hom who I attacked by name?  Somebody who just randomly came up and decided that it was OK to attack me without fear of riposte?

I'll agree that courtesy is a grease.  In my opinion that grease is exactly how we found ourselves building little crappy ships and amphibs that can't take their shafts out of stopped and locked. 

We got "courtesy" leaders who failed every single time to say die to stupid ideas prattled by their peers and civilian supervisors.  LCS, LPD, DDX.

Do you realize that our only Cruiser class is the Aegis, first launched 27 years ago, designed 40 years ago?

But fear no more Grandpa.  Every single person remaining in the navy is courteous to a fault. but me.

Curtis said...

I thought not.

Curtis said...


I think I served in a very different navy.  In retrospect, I do think I'm glad about that.  As I told you earlier, my very first CO was Franklin D. Julian.  Taught me almost all there was to know about being a naval officer.  My dad had laid the groundwork.  You know, just do the very best you can.  The LCDR who wrote me up 3 times also taught me all about driving ships.

I had some apalling department heads.  I had one outstanding LCDR CO MSO who went to Commodore's Mast not once but twice and still got promoted 06. Wild Bill.  Finished up as Deputy at NSWC somewhere. When I was in a DESRON all the COs were 06.  I did sometimes wonder at all the EA that promoted to Admiral.   What in the world does any navy need with EA admirals?  Looked at the last list.  Remember when it used to have the names of CG CO's, CVN CO's stuff like that.....?

Right now, at this time, staff make the whole world go round.  We seem to have populated it with bitter passed over kinds of guys with zed expectation of promotion.  Some are not as bitter as others but to labor with no prospect for promotion....

cdrsalamander said...

I did?  I guess I should take back those good things I said about Stavridis, Harvey, etc.

Curtis said...

You did.  Mayhap you recall Fowler and those that backed and supported him.  That you can rattle off the names of 2 does you great credit.  I note that neither name is that of the CJCS or CNO.  I think you're sweet on Harvey because he posts here.

Tell me again about how he is eviserating Diversity Bullies.  Remember back in 86 when CNO came out with ADMIN Reduction Killer?  Is Harvey going to do that?  There seems to be an awful lot of Admin to be reduced by fiat.

MR T's Haircut said...

I struck for QM.  BUT Thank god I scored high enough in my Seaman ATD and went airdale... and I never looked back... ;)

MR T's Haircut said...

yea have a sash.. and a mast.  I was a red stripe CPO so there..

MR T's Haircut said...

And a lucky young man you were... I am sure the "training" stuck Sir...

cdrsalamander said...

I've pinged on Harvey before - and I don't think he has commented here in at least 18 months to two years.  I have met him, and I think he is doing the best he can.  If you read the Fowler report - you will see that Harvey is there - and not in a good way.  Harvey has a bad history WRT Diversity - but I don't ask for perfection in people.  Good is fine.  I'm not perfect on everything either - in other people's eyes - or my own for that matter.

Yes, I have hit CNO and CJCS hard with my wet-noodle power -  I have also praised them in the past. 

Enough about me though - except for this.  In '86 I was MIDN Salamander.  I have no idea what you are talking about .... though '86 is the cut-off year for high-three........

C-dore 14 said...

Curtis, Now you're contradicting yourself.  I thought you said we needed to keep promoting those staff officers so they wouldn't be bitter.  That, by the way, has not been my experience even on the largest staffs where I served with a number of "terminal in grade" officers most of who were extremely professional and well respected because of their knowledge.  My last XO, although a terminal in grade CDR, served our nation well until his last day in the job and was an exceptional example to our Midn.

As for the current billets of the current Flag Selects, I think you need to go back and find out what they did BEFORE they went to their EA jobs.  I think you'll find that most of the line officers in those jobs (and TYCOM COS as well) had completed their major commands before being assigned.  When I left the fleet, they held off Flag Selection for all but CVN COs until AFTER they finished their major commands.  From what I've seen in the recent lists, that hasn't changed.

BTW, our "Navies" weren't all that different.  I knew Frank Julian by reputation.  My first two COs had similar approaches. 

C-dore 14 said...

CDR S, I was there in '86 (and before and afterwards).  Yes, there was a brief period of "Admin Reduction" but the requirements went back up shortly thereafter.  Nobody ever did away with my favorite...the "one time message report"...anyway.

C-dore 14 said...

MTH, I missed that comment.  I once shared an office with a "Red Stripe Master Chief".  Doubt that there are many of them around.

bc said...

Curtis, with respect, a suggestion from someone you don't know, who doesn't know you except from what you write here, and elsewhere around the web.  It is really painful to watch you become unhinged in your posts.  You've shared many anecdotes, personally identifying information, including photos, so it is no doubt you are indeed the man you represent yourself to be.

That said, perhaps a push-back from the keyboard is in order.  The number and range of postings, many of which contain striking emotional outbursts and attacks on others seems to indicate you may be having some issues, which may not be healthy.  It's a short life and there's more to life than vitriolic bitterness on the web.

I've seen folks try to be civil; with increasing regularity, you don't appear to care and seem certain to soon be relegated to the land of trolls or boors.

This is sad to watch of someone who obviously comes from proud lineage, and served his country faithfully and honorably, while at war.  So, again, with respect, maybe take a look at the aggregate of your recent postings in this thread and others, and put that acute analytical mind to word and look for some patterns.

I've nothing to lose, and write this seriously.  A retired Navy man myself, I've watched plenty of recent retirees vapor-lock over small-stuff, whether LPOs, MCPOs, LDOs, or COs.  30 years of service is quite a few years.  The transition is not always easy.  I wish you good luck during yours.

I was tempted to just say, "Pardon me, sir, your Queeg is showing".  But that would be needlessly callous.

Grandpa Bluewater said...


In reply to your last - Executive Summary: What bc said.

Clearly you are overwroght.  I recommend you take a break, cool off, and reconsider. 

As for point by point, I disagree or demur, as applicable.  Let us return to the topic at hand as
intelligently and politely as possible.

Should you desire to continue in the mode displayed in the last 24 hours, I have no wish to

warm regards, & etc.

DM05 said...

Curtis, what bc and Grandpa Bluewater said. Although your detail may - or may not - be accurate, it always scares me when one throws down "I was a Captain USN". That doesn't go so far here mostly cuz we don't have to care, and, as Byron has pointed out, a full mix of opinions, especially from revered blue shirts and Chiefs as well as civilians, is encouraged. No desire to mix it up, just an observation that civility, and regular rest, is best. Please, enjoy the day.