Monday, October 17, 2011

Where is the option, "Go Apesh1t"

That required pre-deployment training. A little patronizing, a little insipid - a lot of wasted time. Counterproductive? Sometimes.

Who comes up with this shi'ite? Do they actually know what takes place in a sexual assault? Do they know what 5, 10, 15 seconds as you dither can do to a woman under attack? (click for larger if needed)


89 comments:

Sean said...

Words fail me.

Dare I ask how much time is spent on this?

DeltaBravo said...

Okay... tell me this is for recruits from New York City and it's the Kitty Genovese Memorial School of Teaching Men How to Be Men: The Remedial Course.

Otherwise I got nothing.

CDR K said...

A female Coastie is assaulted by Occupy Boston protesters.  You:

1.  Round up some shipmates and head out for Round Two
2.  Let loose the inner DOG
3.  Call the police and have CGIS meet them at the scene
4.  Issue an "adverse interaction" report and warn all personnel to avoid the area in order to avoid any further incident.

The Usual Suspect said...

I didn't see the option where you take the initiative and attack the perp.  Maybe that was on the next slide...or not.  After all, a guy can't put up much of a fight with his pants down around his ankles and you kicking him in the head(s) while he is parallel to the ground.  Insideous that this lack of manliness and lack of chivalry is being taught and fostered.  Or maybe the DB's are afraid that being a male you might just join in the assault.  After all, as males, we are born with the mark and the original sin of the penis.

Kevin said...

Reminds me of the pre-deployment FP test from a few years ago (still the same?) where they want you to sit near a window on the plane so the bad guys can't hurt you as easily.  

This annoyed me to no end because it's instantly obvious who's military/contractor when you're flyng international.  Short hair, no facial hair, and if they're SF the ballcap/khaki cargo pants/boots combo.  Not to mention the cammy backpacks.

If we were serious about FP prior to overseas movement on commercial air, we'd prohibit haircuts for 4-6 weeks before travel, and encourage facial hair and slovenly dress so they match the rest of the 20ish passengers.

ewok40k said...

how about - observe (how many aasailants) orient (if there is chance of defeating them alone) decide (if call 911 first or go apesh1t first) act (on your decision)

LT B said...

This is an astounding POS.  Yes, the AT/FP crap still has the "hunker and hide" answer for transit on planes.  When this stuff first came out, my buddy took it and said, "do you want someone like me hiding near the window, or near the aisle going after these fu*****?"  He is a short guy, maybe 5'5" but then was benching about 400 lbs.  Rugby player and wrestler.  Yeah, I want him in the position to kick the crap out of bad guys. 

The leadership in the navy is extremely risk averse.  They are afraid that someone will get hurt on their watch and they will have to deal with it.  A sailor died in Africa of malaria, and it shaped ops over in that AOR and the decision tree due to staff fear.  Why not teach our sailors some form of small arms and hand to hand defense?  Oh wait, time is finite, go back to NKO, we can't  waste our resources and pull ourselves from sensitivity training.  It truly saddens me how we have removed the warrior ethos from our Navy culture.  Sad.

SWOINATOR said...

I agree - where was the option to hail a few bisket eaters and kick the s#!t out of the guy.  Like US said, hard to fight with your tallywacker hanging in the breeze.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Where is the option for the groin strike and the boot to the back of the head until the assailant is dead or all his teeth are on the sidewalk? 

This has shades of Miss Mullen all over it.  When you hear me decry the pussification of the Navy and the lack of warrior ethos, here it is in writing. 

Might be fun to pose the question to a USMC rifle platoon or howitzer crew and have them craft their own answers.  Several would end with ..."or die trying."   Which is the whole point of their training, innit?

The people who come up with this deserve immediate separation from any Armed Service.  They are not fit to wear a uniform.

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

Ewok, how about don't be a pussy, be a man and jump to the woman's aid no matter how many assailants there are.  I would hope that a man who stood by while a woman was raped by a single man or gang raped would never ever have spent a day of his life in uniform...

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

In cases like these, you do what Sgt Dakota Manning did:  F#CK LEADERSHIP, F#CK THE RULES, F#CK ORDERS, I AM GOING TO DO MY PART AND NOT LET MY PEOPLE SUFFER WHILE I AM STILL STANDING!

ewok40k said...

Because there is a difference between getting mauled or killed for naught and doing costly but succesful delaying action until cavalry arrives... courage must be used in intelligent way as some Marine commented on Guadalcanal after Ilu river battle...

bullnav said...

Option 1 for me would be to run to the screaming and draw my .45.  In Michigan, deadly force is authorized to prevent rape. 

Latent Infantry NCO said...

Think, think, think. Where have we seen this conflict philosophy before? Hmmm. Oh yeah!:

Your carrier strike group just arrived at on station in the Indian Ocean. You are busy using the latest satellite imagery in conjunction with GPS to plot a patrol when suddenly you see heavy smoke on the horizon. Your air assets indicate that Somali pirates have seized several ships and are burning at least one. What does being a "Global Force for Good" mean in this situation? Click your choice:

1. Assume someone has already told the Dutch. Get out of there.
2. Attempt to form a coalition of forces. Send nasty grams to pirate HQ.
3. Hire NGO to study sociological/cultural conditions that produce pirates.
4. Request UN Security Council convene. Wait for mandate.

ewok40k said...

Congratulations, as you run waving wildly your .45 a guy you didnt spot hiding in a corner shoots you in the back... I hope US armed forces are better taught in urban tactics...

LCDR Black said...

Well, I get to take some more of my anti frat training over again because it is outside of the 60 day mark.  I think it was like around 70 days.  Additionally, I just took my Trafficing in Persons Training to go to a country where raping little boys is part of the culture.  Yes, I'll take, "inform my chain of command of trafficing in persons probability" for a hundred Alex.  And STILL, they have elevated the importance of THAT training to 100% score on the exit exam to pass it.  I missed one so had to go back to it.  I freaking reset a bubble on the answer when scrolling.  Know how much range time I've had?  ZERO.  Know how much intel or training on my mission I've received?  ZERO  But I have been NKO'd to death.  I've been reaching out to the 2 shops, energizing the connections I already have  on my own.  My read list is huge and am educating myself, but the Navy, quite frankly, has been a hindrance, not a help to me preparing for a no $h!t deployment.  I have been knee deep in useless GMT and sensitivity training for the past month.  This is very time consuming, to answer your question.

ewok40k said...

You forgot one simple solution:
5.Attack the ships, sink them, kill all the hostages in process and be forced sell your aicraft carrier to Chinese to pay the families of the dead and owners of the ships.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

ewok,

You really missed the mark with this one.  Why is it again that we would pay anybody anything for patrolling the sea lanes?  Or for anyone who loses their life in our attempt to rescue someone who is being held hostage by pirates?  Perhaps, along those lines of thinking, we should charge the nations of the world a fee for patrolling those sea lanes and maintaining the FON?  What are the operating costs of our numbered fleets?  That total seems about right.

How about attacking the pirate ships when we ID them, since the pirates are conveniently gathered in neat little containers at that point?

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Explain that to the girl's family after you watched her be raped while waiting for the cavalry.  Besides, if you get to pull someone's eye out of the socket, it tends to dim the enthusiasm of the rest of such cowardly thugs. 

LT B said...

Not a likely scanario.  Also, he is not talking about waving it around.  It sounds to me he is talking about putting the curr down.  A trained concealed guy then would continue his scan before holstering.  Oh yeah, then he would say he to the responding police officer that he would REALLY like to help them in their investigation and would make the statement through his lawyer.  One statement and no possibility of slight differences for the anti-second amendment lawyer to use against him. 

UltimaRatioRegis said...

I would have to know when the last time a guy hid in a corner waiting for someone armed with a .45 to run to the assistance of a rape victim...  come on ewok.   

If the rapist(s) do not desist immediately, one in the chest, one in the head, each.  185-grain .45 ACP SJHP will do nicely.  If one appears armed, he is first.  I am betting my DT is faster and more accurate than his.  Even in Vermont, deadly force is allowed to prevent rape.   Then, just as LT B outlines below, my lawyer will be happy to assist me in helping with the investigation.

MR T's Haircut said...

Umm,, Pre-deployment training for the 4th Infantry Division Circa 1943 consisted of assaulting beaches in the Florida Panhandle.. not figuring out if an "assault" of a shipmate is going down.. they were actually worried about more important matters.. like Amphib lanes, coms with Beach guard/master, and blowing up obstacles..

silly Admirals...

ewok40k said...

Because your own courts would sentence you when sued by armators and familes of victims...

ewok40k said...

I didnt say I would wait for cavalry, just that i would call cavalry before moving in yself... just in case I would be not enough. In worst case scenario I would occupy the guys attention - even if by being beaten and kicked lying on the ground - long enough for cavalry to save the girl and collect my body.

ewok40k said...

In a gang crime, you always leave someone on a lookout for cops or other intruders... or you won't stay long in the business. Even with as simple things like break in into closed store.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

So we have our own stupidity prevent us from doing what is right?  Nope.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

I'll risk it. 

LT B said...

A rape is not typically a gang crime unless it is a gang rape.  Then the animals are far too engrossed in the silliness.  Additionally, read the post.  I was walking down and saw it in an alley.  The lookout would be posted up the alley, and typically would not start throwing lead, but rather would let the other(s) know someone had spotted them.  Those that carry would probably start the draw upon turning towards and into the alley.  The look, feel and reality of the US is not quite what it is made to seem in Europe.  Many of us carry, most would never know if some of us are or are not armed.  Bad guys fear armed good guys.  That is why, in my childhood home state of Maryland (the people's republic of) they have some of the highest numbers of violent crime but with the most oppresive gun laws.  Same for DC.  I would argue and the stats seem to back me up on this, that if more carried, the violent crime would go down.  Historically, that happened in other states. 

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

Great insight, Black!

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span>Vermont has a close-equivalent populace to DC.  Vermont allows carry everywhere but a Post Office and Courtroom.   
 
DC, with a slightly smaller population had 212 firearms homicides in 2009-2010.  That included 63 handgun murders.   
 
Vermont, in contrast, had two firearms homicides in 2009-2010, both in 2010.  A single handgun murder.  Committed by a MA gang member who had crossed the border from Springfield.  
 
While some may thing this too small a statistical sample, examination of those numbers from 1976-2010 is even more skewed.  And for almost all of that time, DC had a complete handgun ban, and the highest handgun murder rate in the nation.</span>

bullnav said...

I would not go running in, wildly waving around my .45.  I do not want to get ambushed by someone else, nor would I want to be shot by another CPL holder. 

bullnav said...

...230 grain Hydrashoks.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

They'll work.  The 185s will allow for faster second-round acquisition.... 

habap said...

I think Ewok was right in invoking OODA, but drifted on other issues. I would concur with others that it is most likely either a singular individual's act, or it pre-occupies whatever small group is present. In any case, those committing the violent act are generally not inclined to be involve in anything approaching a fair fight (i.e. your intervention) and it is criminal that the multiple choice does not even allow that choice.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

ewok, you go in to kill, or you don't go in.  Period.  As soon as you engage, you are all in.  There is no "occupy" of someone's attention.

Old Farter said...

This question is similar to a trafficking in persons item. First order of business is to call for help. Kind of goes along the lines of damage control. If you see something, report it before you possibly become a victim and the situation gets worse.  Goes against most human nature of wanting to help/protect others, but in the big picture reduces risk.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Reduces risk to whom?  The person being raped? 

It is not the same as trafficking of people, which is an absurd thing to try and train sailors about.  In many areas of the world, including Russia and many places in Eastern Europe, such is rampant.  And it is not the individual sailor's problem.  Report it.  They can't stop it.

Rape is different.  You stop that.

bullnav said...

No shit.  Take positive, violent action now to stop the situation!  The "unforgiving minute" if you will...

pk said...

ewok:

its like this, you got 100 pirates and you cower and pee on the floor they take advantage of that and rob and hurt you.

however if you shoot 2-3 on site all of a sudden you got 97 peaceful fishermen looking to get over the horizon.

do we need to go over this again.

C

Latent Infantry NCO said...

I learned a long time ago that there are folks who will sit and wring their hands, often despite the gun in them, and watch helpless people die right before their eyes. Ironically, that impotence doesn't impair their ability to justify inaction afterwards.

I just can't get my head around that type of cowardice: How do legal intanglements for us outweigh the immediate life safety of other innocents? Just don't get that.

Latent Infantry NCO said...

Dea Lord, Kevin. Somewhere a 1stSgt turned over in his grave when he heard about your post.

My idea for FP is different: Rather than cower and blend in as OWS fruit, let's go back to pressed Alphas and piss cutters for all civilian air travel, leave or deplyment matters not.

Remind the bastards it is our freakin' plane.

When TSA touches your shooting badges, throat punch them.

If a 125 lb middle eastern lunatic attempts to take over the plane, choke him to death with your web belt. Make sure the ink from your name stamp transfers to his neck so you get credit for the kill.

I like my idea better, a lot. Seriously.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

You get it through an increasingly litigious society where laws and morals are shoved aside in favor of the trial lawyers.  Where everything is decided not by law or inherent right and wrong, but by argument, counter argument, and decision before the bench.  What element of our society does that favor, exactly? 

And you have it precisely correct.  It becomes an excuse to subsidize cowardice and inaction.

Old Farter said...

I agree with you both and hope that most people would try to help. Ideally you would have several of your buddies or likeminded citizens there as backup.  But, as the training goes, the correct answer is to call, not necessarily by phone, for help. (and then proceed to help the victim. Although these days, getting through to 911 can be a nightmare, especially in the era of cell phones, particularly when you are in an unfamiliar place.) The answer to witnessing a suspected trafficking in persons event (a required NKO course several years ago and possibly still current) was also to report it. That was the point I was trying to make. Was not trying to compare sexual assault or, specifically, rape,  to TIP.  Although we are a Global Force For Good and celebrate sailors doing GF4G types of things, we still want them to come back alive.

The employment of NKO seems to have lost its way. As recently as two years ago there was a push, at least in the reserves,  to go back to instructor led training with traditional muster sheets. Not sure what the procedure is now, but that had quickly morphed into an option of listening to podcasts and self-reporting. 

LCDR Black said...

Reserves have instructor training and 3500 forms.  But let's talk about TIP and rape interference.  Why do I have to score a 100% on the TIP quiz before I go to Afghanistan?  Shall I go to my Colonel and say, "Sir, that villiage over there is trafficing little boys."  Or, if I am in Africa, "Sir, that villiage over there uses women as collateral."  Or in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, shall I complain up the chain of command that the "maids" are also sex slaves? 

Now, I am walking down the street and see a rape occur.  Now, let me ask of the senior leadership of the Navy that have daughters.  "Do you want me to call 911 and wait for help, or do you want me to stop your daughter from being raped?" 

Do we really want our military, those that are supposed to protect and defend our populace, our way of life and our constitution, to just pack it in, cower off to the side and wait for the police?  Are the cops receiving the same sort of cowardly training?  Maybe everybody is being taught to be a bunch of freaking sissies and we will just cede the country to the evil doers.  Maybe working in the oh so diverse environment of Anacostia (it is NOT really diverse unless the Nationals are having a game) has our warriors scared to such an extent their Summer Whites have turned brown.  This training is cowardly and needs to be reworked.

DeltaBravo said...

"When TSA touches your shooting badges, throat punch them.  
 
If a 125 lb middle eastern lunatic attempts to take over the plane, choke him to death with your web belt. Make sure the ink from your name stamp transfers to his neck so you get credit for the kill. "

+10 internets for the best sentences of the day....

 
 

ewok40k said...

I just realistically look at my fighting/killing capabilities... of course I would try my best to bring guy(s) down, preferably grabbing a heavy blunt object and applying to the back of attackers head. But I won't assume that everything will go ok and I will 100% win. I am not a superman. And if I lose, while the guys are angrily kicking me lying on the street, 1. they dont do anything to the original victim, 2. the cavalry is coming nearer every second.

DeltaBravo said...

EWOK!  You're a POLE!  The prospect of getting kicked lying in the street never stopped a Pole from fighting.  And usually winning.

Now stop it.  Remember who you are!  (end rant.)

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Which is why I go to the gym and work on the CC skills regularly.  As noted above, cave in the side of someone's head, or snap a neck/remove an eye, often the others lose interest. 

And if not, you did your best.  Many less important reasons to risk your life.

Byron said...

Pick out the biggest one, apply the Three Ns: Nose kNees and Nuts. Then you can mop up.

LCDR Black said...

BTW, Is there any difference in the OCONUS and CONUS AT/FP training?  I can't see any appreciable difference.

Casey Tompkins said...

Politically incorrect, but well done!

Casey Tompkins said...

So, what, you're an ex-gangster, you're such an expert? :-P

ewok40k said...

Well, I have one similar experience in the past already, when was younger few punks one night jumped me and my little brother on the street, I held them off for long enough to brother to get away and get help. costed me a pair of glasses and few bruises, but I didn't hesitate to stand between them and my bro. I think I got the right instincts when it comes to such situation. But I dont claim to be divine justice incarnated. Those that brag about the "how I would kick those punk's ass" don't always live up to their word.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

In that case, my soft body armor would stop the round, I would turn, and in the tradition of the Wisconsin Force Option Continuum, shoot that person until he stops threatening me.  It's really quite simple. Of course, as a Badger, I would be required to stop the assault.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

We Badgers call it DAAT: Defense And Arrest Tactics.

Grumpy Old Ham said...

<span>Insideous that this lack of manliness and lack of chivalry is being taught and fostered.</span>

Gloria Steinem et al, call your offices...

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

Whomever approved this training needs to be let go.  Period. I have a feeling that some komitet of democrat contractors probably put this training together, but at some point, at least one O-6 signed off on it.

that sailor should be keel-hauled.

But then again, it jives completely with the new fabulous nature of the military.  Gone are our aspirations of being rough and tumble, ass kicking heterosexuals.  Now it is all about being inclusive, kinder gentler "smarter" force of cerebral pussies.

Well done.  Now reap the whirlwind.

Adversus Omnes Dissident said...

Fuck it.  I have  risked my life for someone's fucking property (running into burning buildings with a hose, axe and flashlight).  I'd much rather risk my life for a woman, girl or boy being raped.

And I'm with URR.  I train 3-4 times a week in martial arts.  And I shoot often.  I consider them good "man skills."

Bistro said...

Intervention sucks these days.

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