Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Well, Turkey has a solution ....

This little bit from Defense News, ironically, caused me to giggle a bit.

You know I feel that having roughly one Admiral per warship is pathetic .... and that we need to seriously adjust our top-heavy command structure ... but perhaps the Turkish model isn't quite what we should follow.
Twenty-five of the Navy's 48 active-duty admirals are in jail pending trial on charges connected with a plot to overthrow Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's moderate Islamist government. The admirals are widely known to be staunchly secular. Nearly 20 retired admirals and several more junior Navy officers also are accused and in detention.

"The admirals in jail could well make the entire Navy command of a moderately sized country," a defense analyst here said. "It is out of the question that this situation should not create any operational weaknesses."

A top military official did not echo that pessimism, but admitted that the arrests are bad for top management of the Navy.

"In comparison, the Navy is in a more vulnerable situation than the Air Force, where base commanders are in charge of daily operations," he said.

Twelve of the Air Force's 69 active-duty generals are in jail pending trial for their alleged part in the coup d'état. The percentage of arrested generals in the Army is the lowest, 14 percent.
GO NAVY!!!! ..... I guess.

Well, they can answer this question for us.

39 comments:

Saturn 5 said...

Well the number of the arrested admirals rose to 26 after that Defence News article was written. The military prison that host the flag officers shold be the one of the most capable HQs in NATO.

Byron said...

Works for me :)

UltimaRatioRegis said...

How do you say "Seven Days in May" in Turkish?

But if we threw half our Admirals in jail we got so many we would overflow Riker's Island.  So maybe off to Joe Arpaio's tents down in Maricopa County?

butch said...

Instead of sending tour admirals to jail, we qppoint them to the Defense Policy Board.

ewok40k said...

1. get all the admirals who most adamantly supported LCS
2. load them on already procured LCS as a crew
3. send them against most formidable opponent navy we can find in the world not possesing nukes (Japan?)
4.grab some popcorn and watch fireworks!
you get rid of excess flags, ditto for unwanted LCS, create some artificial reefs, and get a nice spectacle to watch... so many birds with a single stone...

MR T's Haircut said...

Pinks look better with stars...

MR T's Haircut said...

Pretty telling.. guess Islam co existing with a western government is the real question here..

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Ataturk in reverse.  He took them into the 20th Century, these "Islamist moderates" (sure they are) will take them back to the 13th. 

AOD said...

I don't know what is more ridiculous......

Calling Turkey's government a "moderate islamist" (IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?  IT IS LIKE BEING MODERATELY PREGNANT), 

OR,

Having so many admirals for so few ships.

Turkey's armed forces have had a very substantial role in keeping that country from turning into New Iran.  Have they exercised "political power" at times?  YES.  Has it been in our western interests, and possibly the interests of the population of Turkey?  YES.  Does it fit into neat, tidy western boxes of how "proper government" should work?  NO.  Should we cut off our nose to spite our face by not supporting their military officer cadre against the current government?  NO. 

How many times do we have to wash, rinse, repeat with the Islamic community?  The Arab Street will elect Iranian-style crazy islamist leadership 9 times out of 10 if left to their own devices.  ACCEPT IT.

Not every kid grows up wanting to be George Washington.  A lot grow up idolizing a warlord who made his bones robbing people between Mecca and Medina, who raised an army and killed hundreds of thousands who would not convert to his version of religion, proclaiming of course himself as the seal of the prophets.

DeltaBravo said...

Oh, dear... is that going to end with rope and yardarms?

Grandpa Bluewater said...

The Vacancy sign is always on there.  Regretably what they have done does not fall under the Maricopa County Statutes (mostly...I hope),

Old Grunt said...

<p><span>The key to this is the comment that Turkey’s military leadership is very secular.<span>  </span>During the last century, they have fought tooth and nail to keep religion out of government and to have a strong separation of mosque and state. <span>  </span>The Turkish middle and upper classes have done the same. We should all be scared as we see Turkey shift towards an Islamic state. <span> </span>Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan may currently have a “moderate” Islamist government but if it heads any further south, the entire Middle East can erupt to an extent we have never seen. Turkey has very modern weapons systems and knows how to use them. At present, the Turkish Navy operates the largest fleet (14) of German-designed submarines in the world. (Do you want to go against a type 209 or send a carrier group in there?).<span>  </span>They also control the flow of nearly all of the water in the middle-east and are damming it up like crazy. The last thing the world wants is a Turkish government run by religion and not by reason. </span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>Then again, 48 active admirals for a navy of 48,600 personnel, 75 aircraft, 19 Frigates, 7 Corvettes, 14 Submarines and 108 Fast Attack Craft? Not bad work if you can get it. Oh well, promotion opportunities for young, hard charging Captains……..let’s hope they aren’t religious nuts.</span></p>

juan said...

What the Islamic nutjobs did is the same thing the Left has done here -- attack and undermine the moral authority of their Founding Father. In this case the Islamists started claiming that Ataturk was secretly a Jew. So instead of Ataturk being a Turkish hero who brought modernity and prosperity to Turkey -- the Islamists claim he was traitor leading a Jewish plot to destroy Islam in Turkey.

It took them decades to destroy the Turkish national reverence for Ataturk, but it worked.

It's the same tactic the Left has used against our Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson used to be unanimously hailed as a national hero. The man who provided the intellectual foundations of liberty and democracy to his fellow Americans. The man who, in many ways, created the idea of what being an American meant - life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Both the Left and the Right in America looked to Jefferson's writings to support their ideas.

Today, what is Thomas Jefferson best known as? To at least half the country, the first thing that comes to mind is Jefferson was a slave rapist. This, even though the DNA evidence showed no such thing. But the Left has pushed the meme that Jefferson was not a national hero at all, but just a rich, white slave-owning rapist.

Makes it much harder to look to Jefferson's ideas and words to support political arguments when the Left now says, "Why should I care what a slave-owning rapist thought?"

It's a very effective tactic.

butch said...

Keeping the govt secular was a responsiblity under their constitution.  To gain admittance to the EU, they had to delete this un-democratic feature.  Law of unintended consequences strikes again.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Gold star for Juan.  For both his comments regarding the assasination of both Ataturk's reputation and that of Jefferson. 

An effective tactic indeed.

Outlaw Mike said...

I have another solution. Throw Turkey out of NATO, bring Israel in.

Outlaw Mike said...

Old grunt, many muslim nations have had, or have, sophisticated weaponery. To this date, not one of the has ever given proof of the ability to use them properly. That's because the lack of: imagination, critical thinking, individualism and the ability to think for yourself are basic tenets of islam, as history has proven for more than a milennium.

In any armed confrontation between the West and the muslim world, the secular officers of muslim countries would, no matter their private beliefs (or non-beliefs), give their utmost for their country, no matter their aversion for their religious leadership. Compare this to ardent non-nazis who fought as lions for 'Germany', or non-communists who did the same for the USSR.

That's why robbing the Turkish military of their secular officers, ergo, their most capable people, is a GOOD development.

Jim Kelly said...

The Turks ain't got nothing on us-we name boata after our crooked politicians!
http://www.rollcall.com/issues/57_47/FBI-Saw-Dark-Side-of-Rep-John-Murtha-209736-1.html?pos=hftxt

MR T's Haircut said...

I think we have some shipmates in prison still for talking smack against Ataturk during a port visit?!

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Outlaw Mike,

"<span>not one of the has ever given proof of the ability to use them properly"</span>

I personally know and served with some IDF veterans of the '73 War who would violently disagree with you.

Outlaw Mike said...

URR, to the best of my knowledge the Egyptian Army achieved complete surprise in 73 because it was the holy day of holy days for the Jews and Israeli intel was beneath all standards. The Egyptians also seem to have had good AT missiles which took a (relatively) heavy toll on Israeli armour. I suspect that the IDF vets you talk about may have been on the receiving end of those missiles. But the Egyptian hour of glory however lasted, what, one day?

Name me one - ONE - campaign in which arab armies were capable of operating properly on even a divisonal level. I suspect it's much the same for the Turkish, Pakistani or Iranian militaries.

I'll tell you what. Egypt has probably a couple of hundred Abrams tanks. I'm willing to bet they CAN'T - USE - THEM. I'm sure of it. Oh, they will be able to drive them all right. And fire a gun now and then. But exercising tank tactics on a corps, divisional, brigade, battalion level? I just don't believe it. The basic operational unit in the IDF is the brigade. They don't need more, there's simply no need to operate on a higher level against an enemy who's unable to let two tank companies advance properly along a single track.

When I was a 16 year old I took a keen interest in the Iraq/Iran war. From the reports I read, I had the impression that both the Iranian and Iraqi top brass deployed their troops much the same way a 7-year old would arrange his toy soldiers on a battlefield in the living room. Gaddafi had 3,000 tanks (at least that's the number he reportedly bought). Even a substandard western general would have known how to use them against the rebels.

Outlaw Mike said...

URR, to the best of my knowledge the Egyptian Army achieved complete surprise in 73 because it was the holy day of holy days for the Jews and Israeli intel was beneath all standards. The Egyptians also seem to have had good AT missiles which took a (relatively) heavy toll on Israeli armour. I suspect that the IDF vets you talk about may have been on the receiving end of those missiles. But the Egyptian hour of glory however lasted, what, one day?

Name me one - ONE - campaign in which arab armies were capable of operating properly on even a divisonal level. I suspect it's much the same for the Turkish, Pakistani or Iranian militaries.

I'll tell you what. Egypt has probably a couple of hundred Abrams tanks. I'm willing to bet they CAN'T - USE - THEM. I'm sure of it. Oh, they will be able to drive them all right. And fire a gun now and then. But exercising tank tactics on a corps, divisional, brigade, battalion level? I just don't believe it. The basic operational unit in the IDF is the brigade. They don't need more, there's simply no need to operate on a higher level against an enemy who's unable to let two tank companies advance properly along a single track.

When I was a 16 year old I took a keen interest in the Iraq/Iran war. From the reports I read, I had the impression that both the Iranian and Iraqi top brass deployed their troops much the same way a 7-year old would arrange his toy soldiers on a battlefield in the living room. Gaddafi had 3,000 tanks (at least that's the number he reportedly bought). Even a substandard western general would have known how to use them against the rebels.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Suggest you read "The Heights of Courage", by Avi Kahalani.  He was in command of 77th Tank Bn of 7th Armored BDE in the Valley of Tears. 

Some of the IDF veterans I knew were in the Sinai, and one whom I went to a track vehicle maintenance course with (1987, in which an Egyptian Major also attended), had fought at the Chinese Farm.  His opinion of Egyptian soldiers and junior commanders was pretty high.

The Usual Suspect said...

They all paid close attention at the Goebbels School.

Walker_77 said...

Fleet = Admiral.

We have "#" Fleets = We should have "#" Admirals... *DONT_KNOW*

Less Admirals, More Warships.

Walker_77 said...

Whatever happened to the proud & honorable tradition of naming US warships...?

Now its just "political graffitti"... in a few years we will have a 'USS Clinton" and "USS Obama" and that just makes me SICK  :'(

Outlaw Mike said...

URR, that reminds me a bit of the opinion the Germans had of their Soviet counterparts during WWII. The average Soviet soldier knew how to fight and die bravely, but was in a great many instances poorly led.

At the outbreak of WWII the Soviets had qualtitative and quantitative advantage over the Germans, who had the audacity to invade Russia with still hundreds of Pzkw I's on the roster. The Soviets had almost 1,000 T-34's! In light of that, the depth of the German penetration is testimony to grandiosely superior tactics. It's that I'm sure is almost completely absent in arab/muslim armies. It's one of the reasons they've been losing every major engagement since the fall of the Ottoman empire. I don't doubt the personal courage of some. But it hasn't won them any wars.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Well, the Egyptians were clever enough to breach the Bar-Lev line, and keep the IAF off their backs for most of the '73 war. 

And I do believe the Turks that held the trenches at ANZAC Cove and Cape Helles were not the shiftless cowards the Tommies and Aussies expected to find. 

Kristen said...

Mike, I'm always amazed at how colloquial your English is.  You're Belgian, right?  Did you used to live over here?

ewok40k said...

They also managed to corner Brits in Iraq in 1916... no, the Turks at heart are the same hardy Anatolian farmers that formed core of the armies of Hittites, Persians, Diadochs , Romans,  Bysantians, Osmans. Give them a commander of the Attaturk format and they can kick anybody's ass.

C-dore 14 said...

The number of Admirals is not surprising when you consider that a "tombstone promotion" is still common there when a senior officer retires to improve his pension.  The Greeks and Italians used to do it as well as a matter of routine.  One of my Greek colleagues at NATO was stunned that I wouldn't be promoted to RADM when I retired.

BTW, one of those detained Admirals was my first NATO boss.

Kristen said...

C-dore, wow.  Did you like him?  Was he a competent CO?

C-dore 14 said...

Kristen, Yes I did.  He was a great boss (I was his Deputy) to the International Officers, although he ran the Turks like Plebes.  Smart, dedicated, and the image of the secular Turkish officer.  He was a US Naval War College grad who'd also been their Naval Attache in DC.

Anonymous said...

Yedi gun Mayis ayinda

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Thanks, guest!

It was a movie reference, however obscure.  Burt Lancaster, Kirk Douglas, Eva Gardner (hubba hubba!).

Anonymous said...

Anything for a fellow Vermonter

Saturn 5 said...

URR: The correct translation is: Mayis'ya yedi gun.

Outlaw Mike said...

URR, the Turks at ANZAC Cove and Cape Helles, okay. But that's why I wrote 'been losing every major engagement since the fall of the Ottoman empire'.

And you know who was the Turkish commander, right? A fella who called the islamic religion 'a rotten corpse'. And who forbade the wearing of the fez.

I'll check out that book, 'The heights of courage'. One of these days I'm gonna order that book about flattops and US naval aviation in the Pacific in WWII, may order
your book too.

Outlaw Mike said...

Kirsten, thanks, but no. But all my life I've been reading in English.

Also, kids here have been growing up in an anglosaxon (popular) cultural context since the sixties. The music we listen to, the programmes on TV, it's all in English. Mostly American English.