While I was deep in the heart of Louisiana earlier today (don't ask) at about half a bar of AT&T, I received a call from the good folks at BBC World Have Your Say to see if I wanted to join them again to discuss WikiLeaks, I had to decline as the cell was weak and money called me elsewhere. Shame.
I don't know though what I would have been able to contribute to the discussion, as this is all very simple to me. First, I would not be comfortable discussing some of the things they released that I have first-hand knowledge of due to what I did my last few years on Active Duty. Even if they are open record now - I just am not going to do it as real people with real families are on the deck doing what must be done. That is my selfish reason - here is the larger one.
These people at WikiLeaks have blood on their hands. They are destructive and evil. I won't call them fools; I won't call them well intentioned. In 2010, there is no excuse. They know; they don't care. Any citizens of the USA involved need to be tracked down and arrested. Those not USA citizens we should indict and extradite. Those we can't should have a lifetime ban on travel to the USA and then we should track them so next time they go in to international waters we can send a snatch team to get them.
Yes, I am serious.
I think BLACKFIVE and I are roughly on the same sheet of music here.
War is what it is - we do it cleaner than anyone else. I apologize for nothing. If you aid my enemy, you are my enemy. It is that simple.
43 minutes ago
45 comments:
I submit they do care. Back to your "evil" assessment. That's it. In all their few years as what might be called adult life, they have had too much of the KoolAid on how the mean old USA of A needs to be punished, well, because a man couldn't flaunt his gayness, and the other just wanted to make a name for poking an entire nation, it's political system, and its military in the eye.
I'm thinking there is so much more in those documents that they have no clue as to what's being said. As the intelligence communities on all sides of the many fences cull through them, with professional, experienced eyes, the degree of "unintended consequences" will be of such magnitude that even one day the WikiLeaks crowd will, publically, or not, will have to look in a mirror and say "I had no idea of the death and destruction I was causing."
Real people, in a real world, where the Western values of having a just trial is not acknowlegded, or practiced, will suffer from the mere implications. The brutality will return us to the time of the YouTubing head choppers.
And it will also show the realpolitik of real world geo-political maneuvering, and it will be many other players, not with US flags on their sleeves that will be exposed.
The idjits have broken a dam, and will get washed away with the flood, along with the innocent and not so innocent, too.
<span>I submit they do care. Back to your "evil" assessment. That's it. In all their few years as what might be called adult life, they have had too much of the KoolAid on how the mean old USA of A needs to be punished, well, because a man couldn't flaunt his gayness, and the other just wanted to make a name for poking an entire nation, it's political system, and its military in the eye.
I'm thinking there is so much more in those documents that they have no clue as to what's being said. As the intelligence communities on all sides of the many fences cull through them, with professional, experienced eyes, the degree of "unintended consequences" will be of such magnitude that even one day the WikiLeaks crowd will, publically, or not, will have to look in a mirror and say "I had no idea of the death and destruction I was causing."
Real people, in a real world, where the Western values of having a just trial is not acknowlegded, or practiced, will suffer from the mere implications. The brutality will return us to the time of the YouTubing head choppers.
And it will also show the realpolitik of real world geo-political maneuvering, and it will be many other players, not with US flags on their sleeves that will be exposed.
The idjits have broken a dam, and will get washed away with the flood, along with the innocent and not so innocent, too.</span>
LIKE!
Wikileaks is evil. Just missed you in LA area
Yep - not just the content itself, but the sources and methods that are being revealed that will outlast the reprehensible action undertaken herein. No condemnation can be too strong for the likes of these...
W/r,
SJS
OT for a second: EXBRADTC reminds us that this is Samar Day. BZ TAFFY 3!
Of course-as Tom Ricks points out, it did not tell us anything about the Iraqis that we did not already know.
The question you really are missing though-is who on the inside is aiding them? They have to have participation by someone on active duty.
Irony alert -- Daniel Ellsberg (yes, him) appeared with Wikileaks slimeball to condemn the Obama administration for cracking down on leaks. Predicts a "chilling effect" on free speech.
Ok, I made up the last part but what Ellsberg actually said was just as asinine. I just wish I had bookmarked the story today. But, yes, the Obama administration is cracking down on leaks, and the goofball lefties like Ellsberg see him as the next Nixon. You can't make this stuff up.
But wait! We have a two-for-one offer, today only! Skippy pointed out the leaks don't tell us much (overall) that we didn't know before. At least those who have been paying attention. Thing is, several historians have pointed out that most of the Pentagon Papers info had also been released (in bits & pieces) over the previous few years. The Papers just presented it in a more ...concentrated... form.
My question is: which iteration are we on, now? Tragedy, or farce?
You know, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that if WikiLeaks and their ilk want to claim the US is an evil murdering country, perhaps we should at least act that way. Why snatch them from international waters? Why not just toss them in international waters.
And St Crispin's Day (Battle of Agincourt), and also Balaklava and the Chrage of the LIght brigade, and Maggie has a few more note. Adali Stevenson dropped the Soviet Missile pics on the UN this day in 1962....etc.
http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com/2010/10/this-day-in-history-is-amazing.html
I know one way I'd sure like him to be very much like Nixon.....I see Biden as a lovable, bumbling know nothing...
Have fun at Polk.
Cui bono?
Wasn't that someone a pissed off little PFC who's access was greater than most O-6s?
Right, he is getting help. Find the bastards, keel haul and hang from the highest yardarm.
I saw a report that Julian Assange was nervous the US/CIA is after him. He should be. I certainly wouldn't start a car for him.
Yep, they screwed us all. Anyone traveling downrange with a bad haircut has just had an even bigger target placed on their back. The intel gleaned from these reports by foreign intelligence services is probelmatic as well. Hopefully these jerksticks enjoy their 15 minutes. Close with the hope these a-holes get a copy of Samuel P. Huntigton's book and read it cover to cover to find out what's at stake here - Western civilization as we know it.
you cant do anything about the wiki, fix the leaks... counter-intel teams, do your work!
Don't overthink this.
Don't under think it either. This belies a lot of our statements about how much "progress" we are making in that Godforsaken country.
Don't forget it is also the anniversary of The Charge of the Light Brigade-a more appropriate event to remember when discussing Iraq.
<span><span>St Crispin's Day! </span></span>
<span><span>
</span></span>
<span><span>He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, </span></span>
<span><span>Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,</span></span>
<span><span>And rouse him at the name of Crispian.</span></span>
<span><span>He that shall live this day, and see old age, </span></span>
<span><span>Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours, </span></span>
<span><span>And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.' </span></span>
<span><span>Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars, </span></span>
<span><span>And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.' </span></span>
<span><span>Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot, </span></span>
<span><span>But he'll remember, with advantages, </span></span>
<span><span>What feats he did that day. </span></span>
I have to ask: why haven't we sicked our nerds over at Fort Meade on these clowns? Why haven't the staff members over at Wikileaks suffered from terminal cases of food poisoning? If there is so much blood on their hands, which I believe there is, why haven't we treated them like the Clear and Present Danger to National Security that they are? We sign up to sacrifice our lives in defense of the Constitution. Nobody signed up thinking that their government wouldn't do everything in their power to maintain security and eliminate threats who are intentionally collecting and leaking classified material. UNSAT.
<span>Q.Why haven't the staff members over at Wikileaks suffered from terminal cases of food poisoning?
</span>
A.The methods were tried on Castro. It didnt work that well...
Gator,
Mr. Assange has claimed all over the place that the charges of attempted rape from the Swedish officals is actually dirty tricks from the US Government and when pressed about it won't talk about that issue of his life. A large number of his ex-co workers have claimed he is a despot, I really think this guy is all about getting his name out there as part of the story rather then reporting the story. I also think that he seriously believes that the typical hollywood plot line that says everyone is part of <span>the conspiracy.</span> What conspiracy? It doesn't matter, just the conspiracy, everything from the real reason Elvis died in 1973, Kennedy in 63, space aliens actually exsist, and that governments/big business/organized crime are all responsible for the innocent deaths of widders and children, that the sports team underdogs aren't winning cause of issues, etc, etc. When he got these documents he started to claim that the CIA/DIA/NSA/MiB were all following him around trying to kill him. So he claimed to go into hiding, but having a public persona as he became <span>the story </span>instead of the doucments he released.
VDH weighs in on their selective release of info, to make just the US Military look as bad as possible;
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/250948/wikileaks-selective-morality-victor-davis-hanson
also, "dugout day" on the Guadalcanal with visits from bombers, destroyers and finally ground assault all courtesy of armed forces of the Empire of Japan
Is that meaning the US and it's wars are so stupid as to deliberatley send men into the jaws of war, just to kill them for some stupid reason?
Please explain your attempt at drawing historical parallels, so I don't have to guess you're still banging the drum against the evil Bush one world plan.
Assange has inserted himself into the conflict as an antagonist and we should remove him. He is a self-glorifying hacker. He deserves whatever fate befalls him.
sigh...what, FIFTY years ago? Assange should rot in a US jail, as should his minions. We can be very successful - when we want to be successful.
OK......but I wasn't talking about someone trying to kill anyone. I was talking about people actually dying of potentially coincidental circumstances.
If the allegations about Mr. Assange are true, the USG should just step back and let him self-destruct. As it is I see him destined to be just another historical footnote much like his "fellow traveler", Daniel Ellsberg who has been living on his "Pentagon Papers" infamy since I was a Midshipman.
I don't get it. These documents reveal something new? In a war of this magnitude, and use of this many troops as an occupying force against an enemy of religous fanatics, did anyone suspect there wouldn't be incidents of friendly fire and collateral casualties? Did anyone think that giving millions of dollars to contractors made up of ex-special forces cowboys and removing all their checks and balances, that they wouldn't get overzealous and shoot up the joint? Did anyone think that sending troops out on basically unsupervised search and destroy patrols in an urban environment full of civilians and limiting them with obtuse ROEs that there wouldn't be numerous cock ups, as well as the occasional just plain evil acts? Who didn't think that sending out some boys who survived IED attacks all week to man a checkpoint, monitoring a populace of another language and culture that sometimes the wrong people would get shot? Did anyone think that when paying some locals to get tactical information or to fight other locals, that some of them weren't going to use torture and murder to get paid, or futher their own agendas?
War is dirty. People die, and often not the right ones. People under stress screw up, and often times try to hide it. It's just law of averages that you put this many weapons and this many people an area, and crazy bad shit is bound to happen. These incidents don't make the USA a horrible country or the US Army a terrorist organisation - these kinds of things have been going on in war zones throughout history - Does anyone think that My Lai didn't happen a bunch of other times in Vietnam, but got covered up? do you think an Israeli solder has never shot the wrong Palestinian and covered it up? Do you think the British government never tortured an IRA fighter for information? we just have better doucmentation and recording now. The other side in Iraq is beheading people for Pete's sake. If the documents reveal killng of innocents with malice aforethought, or rape or torture by US troops, the offender should be brought up on charges, other than that the rest is just human nature and the business of war. None of this should be surprising. Our troops did nothing wrong over there except fight the war they were instructed to fight. That said, war requires secrets, and the Pentagon better get its act together on Informational Security.
You dont want US agents in Swedish prison, it would make US laughing stock of entire world...
Covert actions do fail sometimes - look at the fallout Israelis face from the recent hit in Dubai, or French with Rainbow Warrior bombing.
I doubt it will be a Swedish jail, ewok, since Assange is now on the run, according to the New York Times. I suspect that C-dore 14, below, has the right idea. Stand back and watch the little bugger implode.
spek, this whole business is just Pentagon Papers II, the sequel. Daniel Ellsberg has even come out of his hole in support of this weasel. And, just like the Pentagon Papers, most of this stuff has already been reported in bits & pieces over the last eight years. It just has a different impact when it's collected into one place.
Why does this creature's computer still work? Why does his whole setup not have some fatal worm that has eaten through the bowels of his hard drive. Why does his IP address function in travel through any network that is remotely associated with the USA?
Why can't we hand his picture to Mossad and wink and nod and say "Make him sorry."
You will find your answer to that question here.
Ask the commander in chief....
The answer is simple; we are not the Chinese.
Not yet, anyway.
How we do business makes no sense. We take over Iraq, spending billions to achieve a less stable region while allowing Iran to become a greater power. We paid a fortune to screw ourselves, but Julian Assange and Wikileaks still exist. Why?
We take over Afghanistan, install the crooks of our choice, and are surprised when they try to screw us. What good is having Afghanistan a stable nation state when terrorists can train, plan, and execute anywhere in the world, including the US?
We torture suspects then put them on trial so evidence can be dismissed. That makes no sense.
We let Wikileaks survive? We put PFC Bradley Manning in custody? Why do we even know his name when he could have been handed over to another government agency to take care of?
Nothing we do makes any sense. We go to war but aren't willing to fight to win. We let stories leak, traitors survive, and give enemies the same rights as Americans.
We should occupy no nation. We should eliminate anyone we torture. We should never have heard of Abu Ghraib. Everyone involved in that fiasco should have vanished instead of going to trial. Ditto for Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, Wikileaks, etc. Why the hell do we have a CIA and special forces if it isn't to make things disappear before they become a problem.
Wikileaks, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, evidence thrown out due to torture, etc. All our own damn fault. These are the kinds of things that are never supposed to see the light of day and people that are never supposed to go to trial or tell their stories.
Time for a long hard look in the mirror to decide if we're willing to ANYTHING to win. If so, it's important and we should FIGHT. If not, it's not important and we should leave. We have met the enemy and he is us.
He should get some time on Coast to Coast AM, then. He will fit right in, those people KNOW that there is a Conspiracy.
Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself if those questions. If your willing to sell your own self out to answer those questions, then the next question that needs to be asked is are you really that much different then our enemies. If you are willing to sell your principles for those questions, then what is the purpose of having your principles.
It's a little more complicated than that; apparently Wikileaks is using some sort of "cloud" approach for their database & website(s). Look upon it as trying to swat single hornets, or (perhaps more appropriately) trying to kill dandelions. You can knock off the individual plant, but you need to kill the deep-down roots to kill the plant.
Finding the above-ground (i.e. public site) plants are easy. Digging out all the subterranean plants is hard.
If the end result weren't so pernicious, the approach might be considered admirable. One might see a similar challenge when faced with PGP vs. law enforcment.
I get your position, but isn't war the most serious of human endeavors? If we continue to take half measures as we do, we sanitize war and make it more palatable to ourselves, increasing the likelyhood that we will resort to force without doing the deep thinking ahead of time. My point is that you're either willing to do ANYTHING to win because war is such a serious business, or you shouldn't commit to fighting at all.
When we aren't willing to really FIGHT, wars get extended. This should all have been over nearly a decade ago, but we take half measures and rebuild and try to co-opt our enemies, etc. Waste of time, money, treasure, lives. Get in, get it done, get out. Crush your enemies.
What principles are we adhering to be fighting for decades to no clear end? I'd like for us to have this as our basic principle when it comes to war. We are a peaceful people, we abhor war, and we will avoid it until we find it unavoidable. If you force us to fight you, we will wipe you off the face of the earth to ensure you are never a problem again, and we will do it with every means available to us.
Briefly, my position is CDR Sal's position. 100%.
So your a believer in this quote, “It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.” by Gen W.T. Sherman?
The inherent problem is that region is they believe in an eye for an eye. So if we do like what Sherman did on his march to the sea out of Tennessee, to Iraq or Afghanistan? How is marching our troops through the region like locusts is going to bring the undecided or innocents around to our side? If you want to why not just have a couple of Ohio class SSBN's steam into a deployment region, call up the Russians on the hotline and let loose with a couple of Trident weapons? I might site that the reason there are reasons that history has named some wars with the 100 years or 30 years wars. Of which both of those wars were very religious. I would also note that contrary to what you want to believe, the war on terrorism has been going on for years. The US has only entered this fight with in the last 200, with the Barbary Pirates engagement. Just some battles on the war on terror, Barbary Pirates, Pedicaris incident, Yangtze Patrol, the Moro Uprising, Boxer Uprising, Moros in Philippines, Lebanon, Spanish Civil War, Poncho Villa punative raid, Native American uprisings, American Civil War, USMC Mail Guards in the 20's, US Marines in Java in the 1830's I could go on. Terrorism isn't just confined to the Mid-east/SW Asia region. Also remember that COIN ops are long war missions. Just cause we are able to put a government into place doesn't mean that nation will succeed. Look at the "Banana Republic" wars in the early part of the 20th century. Hell the US Marines and Navy ran Nicuragua, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic for a long while. Now almost a full century since then how many times have we gotten involved in those three nations?
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