From: [REDACTED]Being that - let me see, my sources tell me - there are about 10 "ED Women" - I would call this patronizing in the extreme - even if there were 1,000.
Sent: [REDACTED]
To: [REDACTED]
Subject: FW: Network of ED Women (NEW)
All
Please forward to your mentor groups and the ED Options in these regions. Thanks.
______________________________________________________________________
The Diversity Working Group will be hosting a get-together and break-out sessions for EDs at two upcoming conferences:
Academy Women Spring Leadership Summit
17 April 2010, San Diego, CA (EDs will host a Friday night social prior to the event 16 April ~ 1700 and break-out session the morning of 17 April)
Sea Service Leader Association Women's Leadership Summit
2-3 June 2010, Washington, DC (ED break-out session will be the afternoon of June 3rd)
Focus will be on women's issues, but all are invited!
Please visit the NEW Network of ED Women site on NKO for more detailed information and links to conference websites for registration: https://wwwa.nko.navy.mil/portal/edo/home/networkofEDwomen
We welcome your feedback!
______________________________________________________________________
Very respectfully,
[REDACTED]
Of note - ED in Navy talk in Engineering Duty - and be very careful going to the NKO link in the message unless you are using a Windows computer using Internet Explorer. If you are, ahem, using a Mac PowerPC chip powered laptop with Safari - it will force you to restart your computer. Typical Navy IT FOD - almost as bad as the CHART website. Lowest bidder, indeed.
50 comments:
What is an ED woman?
Women with ED (Erectile Dysfunction) is most perplexing?
Engineering Duty.
Uterly unimpressed with ED women (well, the enlisted side, anyway). On instructor duty I routinely saw them unable (physically) to operate valves and using sexual politics to get their male student counterparts to do work that they didn't want to do. Not saying that they used sex outright, but sexual politics.
There were some who worked hard, but in the end if you can't run around in ERF on watch and operate every valve on your watchstation, you are useless to me. Man or woman. If a man couldn't operate a valve, he was pretty mercilessly taunted, but the first time that happens to a female, odds are that someone's going to mast for harassment, not for being unable to fulfill their job description.
Look on the bright side. At least it wasn't further subdivided into minority female EDs. That might be a meeting of one. As a counterpoint maybe all the male EDs suffering from ED should have a symposium - all colors/races/quotas welcome.
Tug - it has been like that for decades and always will. Female ADs that can't carry a powerplant toolbox atop an aircraft for instance and coyly asking a male to do it for her. As a squadron MO I told my troops "I'm all for teamwork but if you can't pull your own weight you will be gone - no exceptions". The coffee mess filled up quickly with female ADs, AEs, etc., but that was 20 years ago. Today - we overlook and then reward the non-performers.
Darn it, beat me by an hour...slept in a little this am in anticipation of hoisting a couple with some MilBlogConf attendees later today...
Tugboat,
Since there are no enlisted Engineering Duty Officer Women, I am utterly unimpressed with your knowledge of that which you claim to speak.
V/R,
Back in the day when I was an ED (it is unfortunate that set of letters has been hijacked by the Viagra industry) that 'community' constantly had self-congratulatory meetings and events...while moving away from ship repair, having moved away from ship design, and moved to....wtf do EDs do these days anyway? Can't have much to do with ships.
I got so disillusioned with the ED world that I left it and became a SWO. Not a lot of folks can claim that.
Really? I guess I'll have to get my glasses and hearing checked, could have sworn there was an EDO female Chief on a DDG that I worked on...
I hear they have developed a pill for that for women now....
On USS FIRST SHIP (USS MILWAUKEE (AOR-2)), when I reported aboard 4/2/77, we had LCDR Karl Klein as the Engineer. He was an EDO and was pushing for EDOs to have sea duty tours in thier career path as Ship's Engineer Department officers, so they would know what "we" were gong through. He was relieved by a most excellent LDO. I was most fortunate to have seen that intiative up close and personal, having later worked with the EDOs at INgalls (P'Goula - nome of the Buffarillos) and in Portland, ME at Bath Iron Works.
I guess the program was flushed....sad.
We've come a long way, baby! Used to be we were accused of being envious for lacking male plumbing apparatus. Now we're ED?
(For the record, I wouldn't want to be on a ship that depended on ME for turning valves in an emergency. Just sayin'....) ;)
<span>We welcome your feedback!</span>
Not said: "As long as it confirms our misguided view of the world!"
Actually, a stainless steel implant....
But the contractor used the wrong steel. t won't stay rigid and suffers from some serious crevice corrosion...
The fix will cost another couple of hundred million and take 5 years to implement.
But I hear it looks really cool!!!!
Sid,
Most important, does it go fast?
CAPT Holly Graf.
Any way, that's the effect she would have on me. ;)
Reminds me of the joke: Men are inherently more honest than women. We can't fake orgasm.
A common misunderstanding, Byron.
The EDO on board a ship is the duty officer for the engineering plant. Same way as the duty officer is responsible for the entire ship.
Engineering Duty Officers are restricted line officers, designator 1440. They are people that run shipyards and are Supervisors of Shipbuilding at private yards, such as EB in Groton.
I'm a Reserve EDO, designator 1445.
BTW, when is Phib going to do another 'Manderpalooza @ Singletons?
BTW, that was me.
Or you can make it from aluminum ... until it cracks.
CDR N, When I left the fleet (which was a while ago) EDOs were being assigned as Engineering Officer (as opposed to Reactor Officer) on the CVNs. Otherwise the ones I knew served ashore as apologists for the poor performance of civilian ship repair organizations.
Well URR...
This may be one time the "need for speed" may actually be seen as misguided....
As someone tangentially involved in the genesis of the NEW (Network of Engineering Duty Women) this has been an interesting discussion to observe. It makes more sense in the very small, not as much at-sea part of the uniformed Navy than it would have in my former life as an 1120 (submarine warfare). If I saw this ten years ago, i would have been scratching my head too.
As an aside, my wife jokes all the time that the Navy needs a few name changes. She cannot with a straight face tell people that I am a member of the ED community and work in a place called PMS [XXX]. Did I mention we have 3 (soon to be 5) kids?
In any case, before crying too foul, keep in mind the intent of this group. Women leave the Navy for many reasons, some bad, some good, some unique to the fairer sex. I will let you explore the NKO site for the first-hand look, but second-hand, I will say that this group was formed to provide support for Engineering Duty women in an effort to improve remove barriers to retention.
Feel free to send me your feedback, GOH. matthew.hawks@navy.mil I can take it, even if it is disconfirming 8-)
3rd para - last line - I mean "effort to remove barriers to retention."
Tugboat, I can assure you that all the women that worked for me in A Div could turn a valve. As has been pointed out, that isnt the same thing as Engineering Duty Officers, but it does show how desperate you were to denigrate the service of some of your shipmates . . .
Going through my MOB, all of the women going through Ft Jackson with us could move and shoot in about 40 pounds of gear . . . in the South Carolina summer. And of course that was only the warmup for the real thing in the sand box.
You guys cry like a bunch of 3 year olds about how unfair quotas are, but when the Navy runs a program designe dto help retention WITHOUT relying on quotas you howl just as loud. Maybe you need to come to grips with the fact that we actually need decent women and minority officers in the Fleet.
Matt,
Some men, like myself, leave the Navy for many reasons, some bad, some good, and some unique to being the sole male for two generations.
That excuse is patronizing in the extreme and applies to everyone's unique circumstances. You cannot custom design for each, as a result, you do not treat all the same and in effect choose winners and losers.
That is not a meritocracy.
Why not treat all officers the same regardless of race, creed, color - sex - or national origin. Judge based on professional ability and objective, mission defined criteria?
That is how the math and science of engineering as it take to make, maintain, and operate a ship will. That is how the enemy will. That is how we should.
I sit on the sidelines now, but have studied history for a long, long time.
I find it interesting, that there are those individuals, who come into the service, with some concept that it is not about them, then, somehow, are allowed to stand up, as junior in the organization and demand their needs are met, while serving their nation. DADT is an example that makes me wonder: Are they getting it repealled to say they can, or because they are honestly prohibited from from serving (ah, no, they aren't) under these conditions?
Now, women need special handling (well, that's not anything new), because it's hard. Like CDR S, I saw guys leave because it sucked for them. Answer: Suck it up, or there's the door.
It's not like teher aren't enough data points out there to let people know the military life can be difficult, if not most of the time, just some of the time. Why is it a surprise to some of these groups? Get in, show you're a professional, and move on.
we need good people regardless of race or gender. set your goals on skill sets not genitalia orskin color.
Sorry, I didn't see a difference in treatment here - maybe I missed it. Clue me in. seriously. I can be thick.
No, we cannot custom design for each. But a woman ED may have questions that she does not feel comfortable going to someone else in her world. What the NEW (I think) is trying to do is let these women know there IS someone else they can talk to about how to do child care, how to do a military spouse, how to do whatever when most things were developed with males in mind.
The NEW is not about FITREPs, duty assignments, promotions etc. This is not about judging or asessing officers. It is about ED women being able to see themselves as navigating a successful career while dealing with some of the issues specific to being a woman.
Let me give a personal example. I am going to have five kids soon. How can that work with the Navy? Well, I happen to know several Navy men with seven kids who have successfully continued their careers, so I have sought their advice on how to continue firing on all Navy cylinders when family responsibilities are growing. I found those Navy men through day-to-day interactions.
Now, given the aforementioned small number of ED women, how difficult is it for them to find someone who might have experienced their particular circumstances a few years ago? The NEW is trying to make it easier for them to find that source of advice. Is that wrong? Tell me how. I am open to suggestions.
Is this different treatment? Or is it recognizing that women face different issues than men? Again, if you have a better way to crack this nut, I am all ears.
MrSwo,
Forty pounds of gear and South Carolina summer are child's play compared to either Iraq or Afghanistan. Hell, my helmet and SAPI weighed close to 60. Put on an infantryman's pack with six or eight magazines of ammo, a couple of grenades, spare radio batteries, water, first aid kit, belt of MG ammo, maybe some mortar rounds, you get well past 80 pounds right quick. And the heat? Over 120 every damned day.
What we need are qualified people. I don't care if there is every color represented, both genders, one gender, one color. Don't care. Best qualified in all aspects.
<p><span><span>How did an entire generation of people grow up and somehow miss that life is inherently tough, challenging and oftentimes seldom fair? Perhaps the irresponsible parents, educators, social engineers and politicians who sold this bag of dogcrap to these people that they should get a trophy or a t-shirt <span> </span>just for showing up are the culprits? Work hard, do your best and sometimes the fruit of success arrives in different forms. No one is owed success in anything just because they showed up for the game. This diversity and PC crap only weakens and serves to compromise things to the lowest common denominator of anything it touches. American exceptionalism did not magically appear because people were PC and somebody held their hand and wiped their nose and told them they were the best. Stop pussyfutting around, grow up and live like mature people or else sit in the corner and suck on the PC Diversity baby bottle, eat your soup sandwiches and hold your baby blankets. <span> </span></span></span></p>
Has nothing to do with genitalia nor desperation, Mr.SWO. Has to do with unable to turn a fekking steam valve. If you can't argue without impugning my motives, take your weak @$$ somewhere else. I respect anyone who can do their job. However, Mr. Genius, I went through Nuke School with the first group of females. Saw MANY rolled back, multiple times, when a single 'do-over' was all a male could get. Again, saw it on my instructor tour at Prototype, as I stated. You offer no concrete rebuttal of what I said, only your assertion that every woman in your division could 'turn a valve', which is not saying that they could operate every valve... We can agree to disagree on that, given that our personal experiences are diametrically opposed. But since you are an O-ganger, I would posit that you spent a LOT less time around enlisted personnel in the engine room than I did as a leading First.
Special note, MrSWO... I didn't mention quotas. I didn't say SQUAT about retention programs. Stop setting up straw men. See my comment below Re: Giving a damn about anyone's race or gender. Or if they're gay.
@Lt B and URR, I am in full agreement with you both; I don't give three damns about color, gender, nor creed so long as the sailor involved can perform the essential functions of their job and (nor OR) has a good gung-ho attitude.
@B. Walthrop. Thanks for being so gracious in your correction. I must remember to send you a nice bowl of fruit.
Master Assclown, you are a Great American. Just one question: So what's your point?
:-E
<p><span>Coddling a bunch of people of any gender or any uniqueness, even the hard working and dedicated people, by giving them their own particular venues is a ridiculous disgrace to the intelligence of the rest of humanity that has not bought into the PC Diversity mantra of perpetual ignorance and B.S. </span>
</p><p><span>Perhaps some new awards and ribbons would be in order. Like a commendable “I got my boss promoted”or “The YES person of the decade or month?” Maybe a good recognition would be “Professional Ass Kisser” (solid brown award) or “The Boss’s Favorite Hemorrhoid?” A modern award might read, “Meritoriously passed over for promotion because of genitalia.” A favorite and old time winner is, “The master of the obvious.”</span>
</p><p><span>Tomfoolery and IT IS diversity Thursday and in light of this remarkable and memorable day, diversity should receive its full reward by riding its little diversity pony out to the old fashioned outhouse with a Sears Roebuck Catalog. </span>
</p>
I'll give you a simple example. You have two people. One gets special programs, special mentor opportunities, special attention to their needs, and special attention from their superiors.
The other does not. <span>Quod erat demonstrandum</span>
<span>NOW you went an' done it! You made Phib go all Latin on us.
Well, Phib, I know a little Latin, too.
Dartmouth's motto: "Vox clamantis in deserto".
Translation: "Free dessert with the clam roll." =-O </span>
Fruit's good. As far as gracious, I just thought I'd reflect the tone of the discussion.
By the way, that was me.
Good update. J. Withington has hit the nail on the head IMO.
V/R,
Dunno...he's passing up the best time to be out over the dock. In another month or two, you'll be able to pour a beer over your head (not that anyone would do something as sacrilegeous as that) and not be able to tell the difference from the sweat. Of course, we could sit inside, but that would cause the apres-dinner cigar lamp to be out ;)
CDR S,
Your simple example scores a 2 points out of a maximum of 4. I cannot award the other 2 points because I never mentioned special programs (which to me implies $$ devoted) nor special attention from their superiors. I would suggest that the two point-getters (mentor opportunities, attention to needs) should be standard Navy issue for everybody and are part and parcel of good leadership. The NEW is intended to fill a gap that has been identified to exist in current mentor opportunities and attention to needs. The ED community recognizes poor leadership and is doin gwhat is can to correct the deficiency.
If it matters, the NEW is actually a "bottom-up" effort proposed from below as opposed to dictated from above.
I agree 100% with MIDN Worthington, by the way. If they still exist, check my posts on previous Diversity Thursdays (before the comment conversion) as "EDO." Diversity of thought is a force multiplier. I believe that men and women think differently. Having QUALIFIED women and men on a team can improve team performance.
I cannot use the same logic for "diversity of color." As a person, I think differently from a lot of people (and think the same as a lot of people), but I attribute NONE of that to the fact that I can be identified as half-Hispanic and half-Black. Other factors--hometown, religious views, political orientation, personality (MBTI-type)--account for the relative difference or sameness of thinking.
I appreciate the opportunity you provide to vent/explain. Keep up the great work.
Oh yea URR?
I know a little latin also, to barrow from your beloved Corps.... Semper Gumby!
That's fair.
As I like to say - I don't have the perfect answer and neither does anyone else; only through discussion and creative friction will we get closer to the optimal answer.
That being said, I always anchor myself to one principal - equal treatment and no favoritism. When something violates that, I throw a flag.
Oh, and for the record - I wouldn't generalize about how women think vs. men. Everyone in my family would tell you I think, act, work, and have the world view of my Mother - with very little in common with my Father. They're right. Another reason I do not like this patronizing attitude towards women - a point of order I proudly say I got from my mother: a pioneer as one of the first women in her field - and a founder of two companies.
The best women I served with in the Navy had no use for this paternalistic treatment either. All they wanted was to be given an equal chance and for people to get out of their way - then again, isn't that what all successful people want?
Ahh yes. "Semper Gumby". That's Latin for "always be flexible enough to do without your travel pay, cuz you'll never see it". Or something like that...
Those of us that deride the Navy diversity program is not due to a dislike of diversity. It is a dislike and mistrust of racial, sexual and soon to be sexual orientation politics. Then VADM Harvey released an e-mail that had "goals" that had a break down of racial percentages. Like Bernie Goldberg said about diversity in the media (I paraphrase): We have diversity. We have Black liberals, Asian liberals, gay liberals Jewish liberals.
Show me the cognitive diversity and then show me the "metrics" on the Navy's cognitive diversity. Treat your Sailors w/ respect, give them a mission which breeds pride, train and equip them to do that mission and reward them for good work in a true meritocracy devoid of racial/gender politics and you will have your Sailors recruiting for you. "I spent x years in the Navy and it was the best x years of my life."
Diversity now is lost in the sauce. Short term political expediance for the br-ass hats in DC wearing knee pads and showing moral cowardice. We are shooting ourselves in the foot w/ current policies. I belive this will be shown over the next decade or two. Ya know, a 200 ship Navy w/ 300 admirals. Politicians, not Sailors, that is where we are going. Sad, sad.
Oh, good comment over at USNIBlog Matt.
*ahem* It's 120 in August. In January it snows. At least in Baghdad...
*ahem* Perhaps I misspoke. In Ramadi/Fallujah, temps went over 100 starting in late April, and it was 120 from June through August, and didn't come down below 100 until late September. In late-July and early August, we had several days over 130.
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