What confidence I once had in the SECNAV gone, broken, unable to be supported. I was a fool to give him the benefit of the doubt. This is the last straw.
Small things do matter - as they often support much larger and critical things. Ship names mean nothing anymore. The vacuousness, vapidity, and morally rudderless nature of our present leadership is out there clear as day for all to see. I don't even think they know it.
Naming a ship after that bucket of goo MURTHA was bad enough. Rep. Giffords (D-AZ) was/is a fine public servant and her husband is a Navy astronaut. She was shot in the head by an insane person. None of the above rate having a Navy ship named after you. Announced on a Friday afternoon - I think even the Navy is ashamed of this classic case of immature pandering to the Overclass.
In yet another break with tradition, Navy Secretary Ray Mabus announced Friday that a new Littoral Combat Ship would be named for Gabrielle Giffords, the Arizona congresswoman who survived a January 2011 assassination attempt.
“The selection of Gabrielle Giffords, designated LCS 10, honors the former Congresswoman from Tucson, Arizona, who is known for supporting the military and veterans, advocating for renewable energy and championing border security,” the Navy said in a statement accompanying the announcement.
Forget that LCS are supposed to be named after medium sized cities; forget the legion of Navy and Marine Corps heroes who don't even have a head named after them. Just put this in your mental file whenever you need proof that we are being led by crass, cynical, narcissistic Brahmins who care for nothing but their own selfish interest. Shame on our Navy leadership for this, and I hate to say it - but the right move would have been for Rep. Giffords to decline this honor - others have deserved it so much more. Shame. Shame. Shame. Those who pinged on me in the past for my giving the benefit of the doubt to SECNAV - I now admit you were right and I was wrong. I apologize to you. When rumors first hit me about this at dawn - I did not believe them. Even 'ole Sal could not believe that his Navy could be such a whore to petty, political, feel-good desires of the unworthy. Yes I went there.
I mad at myself for my confidence in an institution that I love - evidently I love it more than it loves its own heroes and history.
UPDATE: Kristina Wong over at the WashTimes has a bit on it ... and lookie who she quotes.
That tip Tom.
240 comments:
1 – 200 of 240 Newer› Newest»Does Sec Nav even know how difficult it will be announcing the Co's return to the ship over the 1MC? Those clowns need to kibosh this immediately!
Can somebody look up how many sailors and Marines were KIA or WIA on the same day she was shot?
Perhaps the SECNAV could explain: My great uncle was killed during Operation Watchtower and got the silver star for pulling two wounded Marines to safety before he died.
Why is Giffords a better choice than him?
Hell, this month I'm sure, some Marine or sailor will take a round or an IED and die and be recognized only with a Purple Heart and a folded flag.
Why is Giffords a better choice than him?
I agree with Sal, but it's a two way street in my opinion. We celebrate naming CVN's after living, or recently deceased, presidents (Reagan, Bush, Ford) whom most conservatives admire. But, it was bound to happen that liberals would want to name ships after their "heros" once they got into a position to do so.
It is a slipery slope. Oh to return to the days of naming capital ships as we did in the past (Enterprise, Lexington, Yorktown, ....)
Just my 2 cents.
I'm with you Sal. Nothing bad to say about Giffords, but this is just bullhockey.
Since this naming doesn't really deserve respect, can we start making snarky jokes?
This is what "fish don't vote" hath wrought...
It'll be no worse than it was for the CO of USS JULIUS FURER (yes, the last name is pronounced exactly how you think it is).
Being a US Navy vet (from the mid-1990s when no one cared about military service) and a History major...I am embarassed by Today's naming of US Warships. A once proud Naval Tradition has become nothing but shameful, pathetic 'politcal graffiti'...
SHAME on any & all US Navy officers/staff who are meekly going along with this
Once again I just have to shake my head. I agree with Mike that we started down this slippery slope once we started naming ships for living people.
I'm waiting for the fun as they try to figure out how to hold the ship's commissioning in Tucson.
Considering the numerous problems with the LCS concept, the program may get axed before LCS-10 is built.
Considering the hassle getting LHA-6 named America, I doubt that there will be an other Enterprise until at least CVN-81
so in otherwords, GABRIELLE GIFFORDS could get shot in the head?
too soon?
Ships names should connect their sailors to our Naval Heritage...
I served on the USS O'Callahan FF-1051,
she was named for LCDR O'Callahan, MoH, the Chaplain of the USS Franklin CV-13.
Father O'Callahan's shipmate, LT Gary, MoH, was an engineering officer on the Franklin.
It was my honor to meet the survivors of the Franklin, and to listen to their stories of how Fr O'Callahan and/or Lt Gary saved their ship.
What is the message given to the sailors on a ship named for a politican?
poor woman, first being shot and then having LCS named after her...
I wouldnt want to have LCS named after me regardless of my status :P
and I think LCS wouldn't survive being shot in such good condition :P
The Navy and naval traditions mean nothing to the group of clowns currently in charge. Mabus is a complete disgrace, but that is not news. Halfwit signed off on the disgusting decision to name a ship after Murtha. I was disgusted by the USS Murtha, but am just saddened by this stupid act.
No, they've started the jokes on Yahoo already..... it's not too soon apparently. (I'm a lady, so I won't say the word someone called the ship, but he referred to it as a [rhymes with "littoral"] Combat Ship.)
This is a farce. Pandering is a charitable way to describe it. If I get shot by a satan-worshipping lunatic do I get a ship named after me too?
Ewok said it more charitably than I wanted to, so I'll just stop ranting.
Thanks John .... and thanks for paying a visit. As a side note - the widdle lamb pics have kept a smile on my face. Reminds me of spring in Scotland. Sniff .. sniff...
With all due respect to the former Representative, why did she accept this? There are more fitting honors for her service than having an LSC named after her. (And I'll just stop there.)
What do you call a squadron of LCS going into harm's way? Sunk investment!
@Marvin, We've named ships after politicians (Frank Knox, Charles F. Adams, Sam Raborn, etc.) for quite some time. Heck, we've even named a ship after a fictional place...USS SHANGRI-LA. However in most of those cases those politicians had some important connection with the Navy.
Your point, however, is well taken since there are plenty of names of true naval heroes available for use in an era of declining force levels. This smacks of partisonism that should embarass even the most committed Democrat.
Lets see...
"Freedom and Independence" weren't tagged as "mid-sized cities" until well after the ships had been named...
Then another LCS was named Fort Worth...one of the largest cities in the US..."continued the tradition of naming after mid-sized cities"...Nevermind that Lockmart is the city's largest employer...
Then we get Warner, Murtha, and Chavez...
Now this.
What BullSh t.
No offense to the Honorable Ms Giffords, but this is just wrong.
Enough of naming ships for politicians.
I still say a couple of good names...just to continue the tradition...should be
Dillinger
and
Flynt
Both navy vets who have stood up for the common man.
Enough of naming ships for politicians.
And, in the cases of Murtha and Chavez...Crooks and Thuggish Crooks.
This may sound harsh, but maybe she hasn't yet regained the capacity to realize this is wrong.
Nothing this clown of a SecNav does surprises me anymore. Anyone willing to wager against the commissioning of the USS Nancy Pelosi sometime this decade. Now if that didn't motivate you to vote Republican in 2012 nothing will.
The ONLY time any vessel should be named after a living individual - regardless of how wonderful they may or may not be - is only after every MoH-winner name has been used. Period. The end.
I'm sorry it took you this long to realize how horribel Mabus is. And I'm sorry I ended that sentence with a preposition. It's Friday and my brain is fried.
Her husband should know damn well better!
If the Republicans were worth there salt they would either remove the naming rights from the secnav for duration of the obama presidencey or cut funding from LCS-10. Anyway Its another ship ill be adding to my "happy to see scraped" list.
Embarrassing. Please, SECNAV, have some class and let our adversaries recover from their continuous, gutbusting laughter from time to time. Then again, maybe I'm the dummy and what our seniors are really after is Confuse a Cat?
Why does absolute power in the naming of navy ships rest soley in the hands of the SECNAV?
Not that there should be congressional hearings on the naming of ships but there needs to be some oversight in instances such as this.
That's the last straw.
I no longer hold any fealty or sense of pride in being a Naval Officer. I'm done.
Her husband is a Navy Captain, and he should know better.
No ship should be named after a member of Congress...EVER.
Please, knock off the indignation. The person most hurt by this is poor Gabby Giffords. She was shot in the head while serving her nation and is as worthy as any of the people destroyers were named after. She served and was shot for it. She's as good as any of the male politicians we named destroyers for. I would be proud to sail on the USS Gabrielle Giffords (DD-1014).
But, to have your name slapped on this crappy unarmed jet ski?! Please. It was bad enough to shoot her; we don't have to insult the poor woman.
<span><span>
</span></span>
Have to laugh...turned to this Blawg as soon as I read the news... I just knew the good Commander Sal would be on top of this, with his love of all things LCS.
What a JOKE ! Can only hope the LCS gets canned before we get to Hull 10.
her husband has slowly been turing into a craven propgandist in the past year.
I am utterly speechless. Although, I got a good laugh out of the *rhymes with littoral.* I suppose we could look on the bright side and be happy the ship isn't named for that great Navy hero, Capt. Holly Graf. Or perhaps I speak to soon....
Sorry...no politician, injured or not, is anywhere near as worthy as the people destroyers are traditionally named after.
Mike,
I agree it is a slippery slope but at least you can make a connection from Reagan, Bush and Ford to the Navy.
But it seems "their" heros, Chavez and Murtha, leave little to be desired.
I too wish for the return of "proper" naming of capital ships!
ignor the partisan troll. probably never served in the military. here is running around attack people upset with the name choice now.
If Congress is the best we have to offer as a nation, I sure hate to see the worst we have!
I have long thought that a person should be dead before we start naming things for them, so on that, we'd probablly agree.
Destroyers have long been named for poltitians. I remember how much pride the crew of the John Hancock took in their distinctive stern. Read his biography; he'd be Mitt Gingrich or Newt Romney.
I say Gabby is a hero and she deserves better. An LCS is an insult; an insult, man! It is little, and it is crappy.
Correct, he should have known better but traditions be damned. It's all about me!
I am surprised he didn't run for her seat.
no one is saying she is not a hero but she is not WORTHY of having a ship of the US Navy named after her, there is a differance
her husband has been seduced by the glam of the media and DC
Dude, if you are unable to see that this decision stinks like Political Correctness gone stark ravingly insane, you are part of the problem.
Congress reflecting America? That may have been so, but not anymore. Congress is reflecting America's decline. As one fellow blogger put it a couple of years back, the democrats are full blooded socialists and the republicans reluctant socialists.
Go on putting your head in the sand and cheering this nonsense boy. Your country is slipping down a very slippery slope.
Yea that was a stupid post victor.
Thousands of people who have sold out the american people time after time.
Another assenine attempt to shut the conversation down.
No we dont get another 5 or 6 hundred every 2 years most have been voted there and stay why? Because the american people are to damned lazy to look anywhere beyond what they are told to. Because actucally trying to figure out politics makes people feel bad....cant have that poor little souls.
BTW i'm not a teaparty guy. I'm more of a Federalist.
Only a moron could write "That would be thousands upon thousands of brave, honest, and decent people have served as members of congress." What fucking congress have you been looking at?
Sorry phib if i seem pissed but im not getting payed today because my job requires lots of lifting and hard ass work...............forgive me if i dont feel bad for some p%%%y a$$ congress critter who just simpers for votes.
US City naming convention aside, where is the Diversity Bully Outrage?
The newest, biggest, and most powerful aircraft carriers have all been named after MALES (Reagan, Ford, etc.); whereas a FEMALE deserves the same honor only for this small, problematic boat?
THAT'S SEXIST!! ;)
There is no doubt that she is a courageous woman...
Point is...
How far do we tumble down this slippery slope?
John Dillinger died for your sins.
(tenbux if you get that one)
Although ... I can see actually how USS LAWRENCE FLYNT might actually be a good idea. Anyone that goes up against that one knows they're gonna get f*cked.
I did exactly the same thing after seeing the story on a news page...and was not disappointed. Must agree with many of the commenters re: her husband...he SHOULD have known better.
I do wish the lady well in her recovery.
Just wait, USS Nancy Pelosi could be next CVN.
I remember whent he L Mendell Rivers and the Vinson were named...
Folks then said it was a bad precedent.
<span>"Destroyers have long been named for poltitians"</span>
Really? Name some. For every outlier you might find, I'll rattle off a hundred that were named for a decorated military veteran whose service spanned decades, or who died in battle.
Destroyers and Frigates traditionally and should be named with the intent of recognizing the accomplishments and sacrifices of those who actively and conspicuously served the nation during wartime. Naming a warship for a three-term House Member out of pity isn't appropriate.
even uber liberal defense blogger Spencer Ackerman doesnt like this.http://www.attackerman.com/the-u-s-s-shameless-cynicism/
If your head exploded prior to writing the comment above, you would be dead, and therefore silent.
Based on the evidence I would say you have taken leave of your senses and were seriously mentally ill.
Please seek psychiatric care ASAP.
Get well soon.
Ditto xcept the last line.
How 'bout a USS Paula Coughlin?
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/feb/03/warship-freedom-again-breaks-down-sea/?print&page=all
EEEEWWWWWW
Perhaps Mabus is just superstitiously hoping that giving the ship that name will increase its chances of surviving hostile fire ... >rimshot!<
/Too soon?
Ms Giffords is a lady who showed great fortitude and tenacity. I will say no unkind word with reference to her.
On an unrelated topic, LCS delende est.
MURTHA and CHAVEZ were both reprehensible choices! Disgusting perversion of ship naming standards.
At least with GIFFORDS it honors someone "Pro America".
<span>I agree with your comment about naming ships after MoH winners wholeheartedly. When I first read about this my reaction was, "YGTBFKM." I am still gobsmacked.
Actually, is is not a preposition. Is is a verb even at the end of a sentence. Have a drink for me and I will have one or two for you.</span>
Trust someone with Scots blood to be thinking about sheep at a time like this ... =-X
Mike:
Mental illness means the patient did nothing to deserve his condition and has no control over the behavior resulting from it.
No blame can be assigned, resentment is inappropriate.
Powerful antipsychotic drugs offer hope for those stricken.
None of the above applies to being a political hack.
Please shift targets and commence rapid fire.
With that wonderful 8% approval rating I actually think that Congress rates below scum. And hating scum does not equal hating America.
Hey, lookie here, we actually found one of the 10% with a favorable rating of Congress.
Quite so...
She is a gracious and courageous lady.
But thats not the point.
THE DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY NEEDS TO PUSHBACK ON THIS TREND OF NAMING SHIPS AFTER LIVE POLITICIANS!!!
and for that matter...
Anyone prominent that did not have direct and laudatory ties to the USN.
Like somebody else said: you should be able to name ships after living politicians only after you've exhausted every MOH holder ever.
To that I'd add: historic ship names, and any KIA in history.
Wow, I had no thought that somehow Secretary Mabus could lower the bar any further. Representative Giffords is deserving of respect and admiration, the same I hold for all wounded vets and Law Enforcement Officers injured in the line of duty. But, really? He now lives in the Gutter of Infamy with John Dalton and the Carter-Administration SECNAV who asked at his first in-brief for an explanation as to why Navy carrier aircraft needed those tailhook thingy's. (reported to me by an eye witness)
The modern trend to "emotional" ship naming began with the FDR and quickly slid downhill from there.
I've said this statement before but:
"If SECNAV and the CNO are going to whore themselves out to Congress then they could save everybody some time and trouble and just put a price list out."
You owe me a new keyboard!
The modern trend to "emotional" ship naming began with the FDR and quickly slid downhill from there.
DV Gallery wrote of the concern for when that ship was named, as he was stationed in DC at the time.
Also for the United States.
Absolutely nothing against the Representative, but the first question I asked those returning from the ceremony: other than the recent shooting, what has made her notable enough to earn a ship named in her honor? Honorable service to our country in the House, but still - no good answers.
Adding to the professionalism of this event, reportedly, the poster of the ship and name was unveiled upside-down (but quickly righted).
Why? USS Coughlin will be a part of the Patsy Schroeder-class green-powered submarines. They don't carry any weapons, but their hulls are a revolutionary design that incorporates the latest in streamlined technology. The submarines are designed to run on batteries for months.
There is a rumor that the hull after USS Paula Coughlin will be USS Barney Frank.
Exactly!
Just like Nascar.
There is a rumor that the hull after USS Paula Coughlin will be USS Barney Frank.
Will put a whole new meaning to "up doppler"
Not to mention "flooding the stern tube".
John Hancock was among the founding fathers. There is a difference between those that founded this country and todays politicians, no matter what they have been through.
and while the Coughlin wont carry any Seamen, the Frank will be filled entirely with Seamen.
It will give an entirely new meaning to "Man the rail."
Ding Ding, Ding Ding, Go Daddy, Arriving.
That possibility is just hanging in the air, isn't it? Hilarious and probably as likely a reason for the naming as any other of the profound decisions made by our fearless DoN "leader."
If anyone has the idea of changing the name of USS JOHN MURTHA to something like the places that LPD-17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, or 25 are named after,
then, you better hurry ! LPD-26 is well along in the fabrication stage and the USS JOHN MURTHA will shortly have the keel laid and commence erecting all the many modules presently all lined up inside the Ingalls yard, ready to be assembled. After the formal ceremony to lay the keel in a few weeks, it will be too late to change the name of LPD-26.
Speak now or forever hold your peace.
Mike, you forgot the USS John F. Kennedy, and the USS Jimmy Carter, not to mention USS Theodore Roosevelt*. It's not all conservatives. Teddy was a full-blown Progressive by the time he ran as the Bull Moose candidate.
A large number of people respected (or admired) all three of the men you mentioned have publicly said those were poor choices for names, which can hardly be called "celebrating" those christenings.
*Teddy actually got a twofer, since he also had an SSBN named after him as well.
Just the same I'm sure John has alerted the Castle Guard to make sure there's no haggis in Kansas. ;)
Well - I suppose the USS James Brady isn't far behind, and given the robust armament on the class, it would probably be more appropriate. Seriously, nothing against the former Congresswoman, but this is just beyond the pale. Too P.O.'d for much in the way of coherent thought on this tonight - maybe tomorrow, but I doubt it.
w/r, SJS
(who now is beginning to doubt he'll see another Enterprise in his lifetime after CVN-65 goes away...)
WTF....With all the ladies and men that go into harm's way knowing that someone will shoot at them or blow them up and then are duly obliged, can't we find one of them to name a ship after? I feel badly for what happened to Congresswoman Giffords and her family and would not wish that on anyone but those are risks that nearly everyone of us take all the time.
Can't we save the naming of ships for those who have volunteered to go into harms way and whilst there display courage and valor in the face of adversaries? Congresswoman Giffords I would have a lot more respect for you if you had declined this and asked that the ship be named in honor of a female veteran who had died in combat over the last ten years. This so smacks of politics it makes me ill. I can hardly wait for a new administration. Be ashamed of yourselves, very ashamed. You should know the difference between a victim and a hero. Ships should be for heroes.
Going off course for a second...you don't think the "real" sports like football and baseball aren't whoring themselves out? How much do you think Nike paid the NFL to get the swoosh on their shoulders? Well, NASCAR is the same, except that each "team" has to fight to get sponsors to help pay the estimated $25 million it takes to field a Cup team for a year. It's an expensive sport and a drivers ability to run well translates into better sponsors. The way the sponsors get their advertising value back? Simple, decals on the cars, the fire suits and the driver himself mentioning the sponsor on air. It's a business necessity.
In other words, don't dis my favorite sport :)
Here is my view--which can be wrong, freely admitted--on some posssible motivating factors behind this absolutely inappropriate decision--and it is inappropriate. On that I have no doubts. And the gist of my theory is that this naming is nothing but political 'chess' in action--specifically trying to position a piece so that no matter what the opponent does, he loses something.
If the GOP fights this naming in any way, they can be attacked for 'attacking' and 'dishonoring' the nice lady who got shot. If they don't fight it, then the nice lady who got shot and who is a 'heroic Democratic' gets some official American credit as a hero--a raising to secular sainthood, as it were. (Of course, the Bush-appointed judge who actually died that day gets nothing much). The practical benefit of the second is that it might help retain Gifford's soon-to-be-vacant House seat, because the presumptive GOP challenger has enough of a bio to counter the Gifford's sympathy effect. In fact, I will go as far to say that if Martha McSally had not chosen to run, if the GOP candidate was a more easily beatable 'pasty white guy', this naming might not have happened.
The effect of the GOP not fighting it might also serve to demoralize some supporters, which is always a plus. The decision, if left to stand, also logically seems to expand the envelope for what those in power might be able to do to as far as their ability to bestow honors and prestige in the future. Twenty to thirty years from now, who knows where it could lead. Today we can only give you an ambassadorship if you are a big bundler. In a generation, if you donate enough, you might be able to get a warship named after you. This, overall, then seems like it is one of those seemingly "hanged if you do, hanged if you don't" moves. As I said--political chess.
So does this mean I think this is all crass politics of a petty tactical sort? I have no reason not to think that, and it fits the facts. Doesn't mean it is the way it went down. And do I think that America is in danger of starting to be ran like it is nothing but a single-party inner urban area (say something like, oh, I don't know, Chicago), where all the elements of state are at the disposal of the establishment for use in the maintaining of power? Well, it might not take too much arm-twisting to get me there, let's say that.
Overall, I can't say I could see Ernie King going along with this move made today. But hey, changing times, changing defiinitions of what 'tough' is, I suppose.
Well, if the hull was like her face, nothing could puncture it, it's so hard :)
Well...
I guess naming a basically armament-less ship after her will go some way to appeasing the gun control folks.
If we want laides in harms way, then here's one with "just" a head wound like the current namesake.
http://ww2.dcmilitary.com/stories/072210/journal_28246.shtml
The linked story talks about Hospital Corpsman 1st Class Holly Crabtree (and her sister, who's a Staff Sgt in the Army). She was on patrol with an Army Civil Affairs unit attached to a Special Operations Force in Iraq.
She was shot in the left side of the head by a sniper and nearly died in service to our country. She also wants to stay on active duty.
Where's her ship?
Damn, Rusty, I felt that one!
As an amplifier--when I said "hanged if you do, hanged if you don't", I meant if you were the opposition.
As an addition--both the Murtha and Giffords namings cheapen the honor of having a United States warship named after you. If the main criteria of ship naming is how useful the name is to some politician's agenda or getting a budget passed, and that appears to be increasingly the case, then at some point I would think a person of integrity would turn it down if they were alive and knew it was coming (or tell their survivors before they died).
A nation and a service can make an honor dishonorable if they cheapen it. So it seems with ship names.
Ship of shame.
If it is any consolation to those opposed to this rediculousness, she is named after a ship with a pointy head and a WIDE ass. I'm just saying....
Here is my nominee...LT Florence Choe...killed in AFG by insurgent feigning to be Afghan Soldier. Filipino Master Chief Dad, one of the many great great sailors to come to us via Subic Bay...Family is Navy through and through. She is plenty good enough for me...
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Local-Navy-Nurse-Killed-in-Brazen-Attack.html
Let the inner voice rip - it IS your porch.
Murtha's name should have been attached to an oily nasty reef, not a US warship. Combined with Gabby, we have leadership by pandering and politicizing, which is a d@mn shame.
*snort*
USS bill clinton ?? well, perhaps. maybe a self propelled suction barge ?
<span>I'm waiting for the USS THE HONORABLE RAY MAYBUS.
How is the CO of the Gabrielle Giffords supposed to motivate the sailors by talking about the proud history of the ship's namesake?</span>
given the capabilities of the overweight, underarmed, underfuelled, undermanned, way over budget LCS-1 USS FREEDOM class, then we need to start appropriately naming naval ships in the future:
LCS-12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 ..... they must sound nautical, though.
USS Sponge, USS Anemone, USS Barnacle
USS Seaweed, USS Spiny Urchin, USS Clamshell, USS Coral Reef ....
I respect Rep. Giffords and wish her the best.
Name a post office or federal building for her, that would be appropriate and a fitting honor and remembrance.
There should be stars on the SECNAV/SECDEF table over this incident which confirms the tawdry hack political activities which are now passed off as "leadership" by the Commander in Chief, the Secretary of Defense, and the Secretary of the Navy.
It is bad enough that the "leadership" are even wasting boatloads of cash to build any of these worthless LCS floating death traps. It is worse that they are building a lot of them, and counting them as "warships." It totally unfathomable why they would name one after Rep. Giffords. The only answer is cheap partisan politics.
The only acceptable solution is to stop all construction on these scows. But, if they must, at least have a shred of respect and decency and give our ships proper NAVAL names. Not wounded politicians, or corrupt politicians, or corrupt Marxist labor bosses.
I am so glad I no longer wear the uniform.
Victor- You flat do not know what you are talking about:
"<span> She's as good as any of the male politicians we named destroyers for"</span>
There has never been a destroyer named after a male politician. Go check out the names, one by one, and read the histories of their namesakes. Not politicians, but real heroes. Military heroes, Navy and Marine Corps heroes. All of them.
GIffords is a nice lady, an honorable member of Congress from what I have seen (and that is a rather small group of the 435) and she got wounded by a nut case. Nothing in that resume qualifies her as worthy of having a warship named after her.
Don't forget the USS Rip Tide!
Hey, America haters.
USS John Hancock(DD-981)<span>, a</span>Spruance-class<span></span>destroyer<span>, was the second ship of that name, and the sixth ship of the </span>United States Navy<span> to be named for </span>John Hancock<span> (1737–1793), the President of the </span>Continental Congress<span> and first signer of the</span>Declaration of Independence<span>. </span>
Oh, please. The poor lady is having trouble walking. When they carve out part of your brain do you really think you'll have time for wingnuts on the blogosphere?
Sure, she can put a brave face on things, and totter out for the State of the Union, but this is a woman who has been very badly hurt. Cut her some slack.
Her recovery is much like stroke recovery. She might not have time to spend reading the paper.
GERALD FORD was NEVER elected to an office higher than Representative from Michigan. Appointed VP to fill Spiro Agnews slot and then fleeted up when Nixon resigned.
That naming convention was truly lost on a person whose claim to fame was failling down the ladder of Air Force One and surviving assassination attempts by to whacked females.
Budweiser Shoot-Out in two weeks .... then Daytona .... racing through November 2012.
Can't wait.
Too Late:
<span> </span>Edward Fitzgerald "Ned" Beale (February 4, 1822 – April 22, 1893) lobbyist, rich guy, "Beale successfully pursued a personal El Dorado of adventure, status, and wealth," wrote Gerald Thompson. (DD/DDE-471)
The Navy has no self love. Definitely that girl that slept around with everybody, had daddy issues, wanted everybody to love them and cared not a bit for what was really important. Shame on you navy, shame!
Someone asked about war casulaties on January 8, 2011 .... the day Rep Giffords was shot.
Cannot find a breakdown for Iraq, but there were no losses in Afghanistan that day, but the following brave folks died January 7th
-Lance Cpl. Joseph R. Giese, 24 – Winder, Georgia – 2nd Battalion, 9th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force . Died when a roadside bomb detonated during combat operations in Helmand province, Afghanistan, on January 7, 2011.
-Spc. Ethan C. Hardin, 25 – Fayetteville, Arkansas – 2nd Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division . One of two soldiers killed when insurgents attacked their unit with a roadside bomb and small-arms fire in Logar province, Afghanistan, on January 7, 2011.
-Pfc. Ira B. Laningham IV, 22 – Zapata, Texas – 2nd Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division. One of two soldiers killed when insurgents attacked their unit using a roadside bomb and small-arms fire in Logar province, Afghanistan, on January 7, 2011.
Pfc. Robert J. Near, 21 – Granger, Washington – Company C, 86th Expeditionary Signal Battalion, 11th Signal Brigade. Died in Kandahar, Afghanistan, on January 7, 2011. Died in Kandahar, Afghanistan, on January 7, 2011.
There were no other deaths in Afghanistan until January 12th.
She is being used as a political prop. Everybody capable of knowing it knows it. She is no longer the same person she used to be and it makes me sick to see her taken advantage of for political gain. Her husband should protect her instead of letting this horrible tabloid episode continue on unabated.
VictorII,
Do you have a point other than the one on the top of your head?
Ford may not have been elected to a higher office than Representative, but he DID serve as President during trying times, and more importantly, had a very strong connection to the Navy, as did GHW Bush. Heck, you can make a stronger case for Ford than for Reagan, who served in the Army.
How about naming the next carriers Lexington or maybe Saratoga? What about Forrestal or even another Enterprise.
Well, we got an amphib name America ... could Constellation or Coral Sea be next?
I doubt it ... we havn't run out of pandering politicians yet.
Yeah, a well-known signer of the Declaration of Independence who had been dead for 180 years. I can see how that explains naming a United States warship after a living three-term Congresswoman. Very convincing. EVERY other Spruance followed the traditional (military veteran / hero) naming convention.
Well, at least we are building ships that need a name. . . . . .
I didn't like the USS FORD name, either. Although his naval service was distinguished, he was an unelected half-term President who did nothing of any particular positive significance while in office. That doesn't seem enough to get a new aircraft carrier class named after you. I would much rather have had another Franklin D. Roosevelt.
What do you want to bet that we're going to get a USS OBAMA (CVN - XX) announced sometime before our current fearless leader leaves office?
Parctical...
Really?
That the USN is sticking with the goofy LCS is ludicrous in the extreme...
My anger is of course directed at Mabus. Phib was just the first one to let me know about this embarrassing mess.
We should name ships after heroes, not victims.
Well...hopefully any USS Barney Frank will be able to "clear baffles" with the same ease "her" namesake can...
Thats the whole point...
At least the LCS's would be useful for something....
Hancok also paid for part of the Continental Navy. He was a ship owner.
Pelagiac plankton, or the Pseudo-nitzchia (poisonous algae)
AHEM. Cdr, there's something else I've been aware of for quite some time but didn't judge important enough to bring it up.
It must have been the gazillionth time I have had to read or hear - from you too, amongst others - that Congresswoman Giffords is an outstanding public servant. So massive was this barrage of positive evaluations that I started to wonder why on earth I had never heard from her before she was shot.
I also wondered if it could be true what she asked of Gen Petraeus, because I thought that if indeed, she had posed such utterly irrelevant questions from a general with a battlefield command, it probably couldn't be true otherwise there would be much more coverage from rightwing sites.
But... it appears to be true after all.
I quote:
<span>Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-Az) took Afghan Commander, General David Petraeus, to task for what she characterized as "willful disregard of the environmental impact of our war effort." "There is no policy, no plan to minimize carbon emissions in our military activities," Giffords charged. "Bombs are dropped and bullets are fired without considering the environmental impact." Giffords insisted that she was "not demanding an immediate halt to current military operations in the Middle East. I'm just saying that battle plans should include an environmental impact assessment as a regular part of the process before attacks are launched."</span>
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<span>Hey, seriously... WHY ON EARTH is Giffords so outstanding CDR?</span>
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<span>Frankly, I'm not at all impressed with her to say the least, and in this way the naming of a ship that is a deadborn concept sucking a tremendous lot of resources with it into the drainhole after a ridiculous Congresswoman...</span>
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<span>... even makes sense to me.</span>
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<span>The right name for the wrong ship.</span>
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<span>It would have been FAR WORSE if this LCS had been named after, say, McMahan. Or whatever.</span>
ROFL!!!!!!
Okay. I guess I was grumpy. I worked very late and I realized there wouldn't be any sex anymore.
I will say she is not a hero. She is a victim, and has shown great strength in her recovery. But a hero? As opposed to guys jumping on grenades, lifting up burning ammo cans and throwing them overboard, or the Marines we have that are incredibly burned pulling their fellow Marines out of burning HMMVs and such? There are other things we can do to honor her. Hell, let's have Congress actually pass a budget. Now THAT is an honor! It seems almost impossible, as it has been over 1000 days.
I expect that her husband the astronaut wants to go back to space again, as most astronauts do. He's not going to pee in the roses just to make a point. Besides that, he's been way from the Navy so long he's probably forgotten what "haze grey and underway" means.
Boogity Boggity Boogity :) Someone asked on a radio show, "whats the best two months of sport?". I said October and November: you have the college football season shaping up to see who the championship players will be, the same for the NFL, and the crazy, git 'er done end of the NASCAR season. I have to buy new batteries for the remote every year because of it :)
Ahhh, why would anyone craft a hull after a Beach Whistle ?
In additions to term limits, a new requirement should have Congress wearing NASCAR sponsor suits so we can at least see who is buying a berth at the trough.
"America Haters"
Actually, much prefer USS America. And while there will be the LHA-6 named after her, I think most agreee that name would have been better on the CVN then say, oh I dunno, Bush or Ford, Vinson.
<span>As hor Hamcock, Founding Father meebee? There have bee a few others named after founding fathers or monumental leaders of this country - long after they are gone. Franklin, Hamilton, Washinton, Lincoln - trend?
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This Secretary of the Navy says he respects the Sailors and Marines he is sworn to serve, but it is painfully clear that his trend with naming ships is about his future political desires. Shame on you Secretary Mabus. Naming ships for politicians and personal friends for personal gain is beyond the pale.
USS Bill Clinton needs to be an oiler. Always sailing around trying to shove his hose nozzle in everything. Oh, and operating well out of sight of USS Hillary.
Why?
D-AZ. That's why. Mabus is a disgrace. Yet, I wonder if ol' Hooper, who was all greased up for him a couple years ago, will ever admit that every doubt expressed about the guy was spot-on. Somehow I doubt it.
So the question is, at the commissioning ceremony of USS Barney Frank, what will they say?
"Crew this ship and bring her to life!"
or
"Let the seamen all run into Barney!"
I was in favor of neither the FORD nor BUSH, as they simply were not of the "all-time great" stature needed for a capital ship. Nor would I have been in favor of the VINSON or STENNIS, for the same reason. For each of them, it should have been a destroyer, or if not of sufficient honor, nothing (perhaps a cruiser, if we built cruisers anymore--which as an aside, is what I think the Burkes really are. Main combat units able to give a punch and take one (to some extent)).
The only President left who doesn't have a carrier who has the stature is John Adams. Jefferson has issues, Grant was not a particularly great President, Wilson has some baggage about suppression of rights in war and had some issues with the Navy because of his SecNav and the elmination of the wine mess (not that the opinions of sailors, institutional or otherwise, matters anymore these days. We just serve), Jackson has the Indian removal issue. James Madison would be good, though he can be attacked as a slave-owner. Benjamin Franklin would be a heroic choice, and would also recognize the WWII ship of that name. Hamilton does not have the stature necessary. Monroe is too obscure and was also a slaveowner. John Paul Jones would be a decent decision.
Any of the above names would have been, from a statecraft and a national spirit perspective, better than the first four I named. We do not seem to have a very good political class anymore able to look beyond their immediate or mid-term political concerns. At least SHANGRI-LA had a connection to the Doolittle Raiders, and FDR actually loved the Navy, truly loved it.
You have got to be kidding ? I hope Petraeus answered by explaining that the only impact he cares about is ordnance on target. Where is Navy Leadership on this ? Oh yea, those stars don't want to upset anyone.
Did we ever name a ship in memory of another ship that was shot to hell and gone by our so-called allies? The USS LIBERTY?
That entire sorry situation will continue to piss me off until the day I'm weighted down and dropped over the side.
http://www.gtr5.com/index.html
Yeah, well, "so-called allies" is now in the eye of the beholder.
B Hussein is enabling all of Israel's mortal enemies. Including the very one who vowed 48 hours ago to "erase Israel from the globe".
USS John Finn.
<span>PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I PITY THE FOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is so full of WTF, I dont even know where to start!
Kristen, DB and ladies of Phib land, I apologize now for what I am about to say...
WHAT THE FUCK!!???????????????????????
SO the ONLY freaking criteria is that you are a VICTIM of a crime and you can get a ship named after you? Really??? This is an attempt by the LEFT under the American hating Shultz-Wasserman, to USE the poor former Congresswoman as a TOOL in the fight against the Second Amendment. The result will be a plaque on the quarterdeck describing her deeds and instead of learning about how a medic saved marines, or how a young man jumped on a grenade to save his friends, a future plankowner or crewmember will learn how GIFFORDS was a victim that day and how bad guns are... really?? REALLY??? WTF!!!</span>
But at least Ford had been in the Navy!
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.... all part of the playbook
It's all about him. Would your leave you critically ill wife to go fly? I am surprised he can get a helmet on.
You Sir, can have my berth than... I would not sail on any ship where everyone "gets a medal"
Agree, no confidence in the SECNAV.. this brings his entire judgment into question.. I demand his resignation.
<span>Do you really think we have Flags that would give their stars over this? As far as I can tell, our Flags don't have the guts to wage a Revolt of the Admirals if it was needed. Sad.</span>
I was trying in my mind to create a most absurd idea for ship name, and here we go:
USS Lee Harvey Oswald. Democrats would love his leftists adventures in Russia, Republicans would love him for shooting the Kennedy, he was shooting victim as Rep. Giffords, and he was a Marine once like Murtha... /sarcasm off
Um, what were Jefferson's issues exactly?
I got smacked by the future mrs. for that comment...
So much for any type of naming convention ....
<span>Mabus said it was his own idea to name the ship after Giffords. "I thought it was important," he said.<span>
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/10/navy-names-ship-after-gabrielle-giffords/?test=latestnews?test=latestnews#ixzz1m5aozQ3H</span></span>
Just ouch, Ewok. OUCH!
<span> </span>Someone made the interesting point that politicians are just like us. Then some crazy tea-party nut went off on President Ford not being worth of having a ship named after him.
<span> </span>Read Buckner F. Melton Jr.'s "Sea Cobra." The USS Monterey (CVL-26), was on fire in a typhoon. Lt. Ford lead the fire brigade that battled the blaze, for over five hours and saved his ship.
<span> </span>What a dirtbag.
No need to apologize, MTH. When I said it, it came out "Whiskey tango foxtrot!" though...
You're onto something. A way better name would have been the USS Peter Rhee. He's the 24-year Navy vet surgeon who had served on both battlefields, who took his talents and saved Gifford's life.
Plus the lives of countless others. He's someone a ship should be named after.
Neglect of the Navy. Jefferson took the funds that could have enlarged the small but capable force Adams began and squandered them on coastal defense gun-rowboats. Because he considered those rowboats politically suitable for a country of farmers.
<span>IF</span> you are going to go with political figures, Adams, Franklin, and Madison are preferred. Personally, I'd stick to the old tradition. Enterprise. Hornet. Yorktown. Lexington. Saratoga. Names rich in tradition and honor.
Actually, no. There's plenty of precedent for changing ship names, even after launching. Get a couple of old Master Chiefs to dig up the appropriate ceremony (there is one, IIRC), and go for it.
Personally, I think there needs to be a mass renaming with the new Administration. Flush <span>ALL</span> the recent political names. Including ships already in commission. I can see Reagan and Theodore Roosevelt. Franklin Roosevelt, maybe. But the commandeering of ship names for political eye-poking must be stopped, and the damage reversed.
OM, now now. She wasn't everyone's cup of tea. But we've all been very polite about it here once ordnance met the brain housing unit.
We wish her well. But we also see the irony in the fact that the medical skill that saved her life was probably honed and perfected precisely because of the very battlefields she was so worried about.
Crazy tea-party nut? We can leave that one for later.
I think there was a political coincidence that the carrier class was named after President Ford in the days right before his death. Leading a fire brigade during typhoon is commendable and certainly worthy of an award, but hardly qualifies one for having a class of aircraft carriers named after him.
If that were the case, then as Repair 5 locker leader having fought progressive flooding in Enterprise for 18 hours after hitting Bishop's Rock or fighting a stubborn fire in MarDet berthing immediately adjacent to their ammo lockers should ensure that at least the next class of Captain's Gigs gets named after me.
Republicans didn't laud the shooting of Kennedy. (I know you were speaking in jest.)
Jack Kennedy would not recognize his party today. None of it. Hell, Romney is considerably more liberal than JFK was.
Today, Harry Truman would be labeled a fascist right-wing nut by the Democrats.
Face it Men. The entire pentagon leadership, uniformed and civilian, is no better than a gang of post Civil War Carpetbaggers. The suits are all political, the unifroms seem to have all lost their pole stars.
The smell that is rising to the rooftop wil l persist so long as we all shall live. It took at least 50 years to arrive t this point.
Who do you know who is an honest partiotic seaman or aviator who has learned the ropes at sea ? There can't be many.
He would.
Ewok:
Tain't funny. You are admirably fluent, but put a foot wrong this time. No offense meant and none taken. Just wanted you to hear it from a friend.
Practical: I beg to differ: PGC and a number are more than sufficient (Patrol Gunboat, coastal).
YPG is more truthful (Harbor gunboat)...
"Founding Father" who pledged his life, fortune, and honor to establish the country.
Okay, jerk, I'm one of those types who don't like the FORD naming, and it is because of exactly as I said--the life of Gerald Ford was an honorable one, but that life rates a destroyer and not a capital ship. Your opinion may vary, but the way I see it you have got no cause to start calling people names just because they disagree with what you suppose is your brillance.
At least I had the guts to post under my own name.
Of course.
Being a real victim of a PC skyline crime is one thing, but being a pretend victim of a PC skyline crime is the best of all. Which is why we need a USS Paula Coughlin. Let's kick out the jams once and for all, Ray, get thing going fully in the direction to which you are "leading" us and power her with a pretend PC skyline fuel made from algae. :-D
I am going to add that, based on a quick Wikipedia and Naval Historical Center check, Lieutenant Ford did not even recieve a medal for his actions abord MONTEREY. I presume he got a Letter of Comm or some such other. Not having access to any other information. I have got to say that it seems to me that calling folks "dirtbag" when they don't support your belief that an action that didn't even get a medal at the time is somehow sufficent justification--by itself--for not only a carrier naming, but is such a wonderful justification so as to allow any and all who oppose it to be treated with whatever contempt you choose--well, pal, at some point I just need to conclude that you are a political hack trying to spin the issue so the GOP does not look bad.
Just because one becomes President of the United States does not automatically mean one deserves to have much of anything named after you, much less a carrier, much less a carrier class. At least, not automatically.
"Guest", you have a nice day.
Proof that Mabus is an idiot, if he really thought of it on his own.
If ANY uniformed officer he mentioned it to failed to tell him in terms as clear and understandable as MTH or DB, they are as complicit and guilty and stupid as Mabus is.
I belive that USN ships have had their names changed on occasion in the past, and we can only hope that the precedent will be followed to rid the fleet of political names and restore something actually naval, traditional and respectable.
Jackson was actucally agaisnt the indians removal. It was the next president after him who did it. He was of the mind as long as they agree'd to respect the laws and constitution of the US that they could stay as any other citizen. After he was out they were screwed over by the next guy.
Of course many cherrokee and such simply funneled back to the south and live here today.
The israelies had the right to do what they did. The US was cozy with the Egyptians, the liberty was a spy vessel, the israeli people are the same who not to long before got screwed over repeatedly by the US among basicly every other country on earth when in need. Their country is small enough that they could all die in a day.
They have no time to breath, no space to manuver, they are surrounded by people who want to kill them and now a american spy vessel is monitoring their transmissions and actions and possibly supplying information to a group of people who want to kill them all.
I've heard the recordings of the pilots......they are freaking out....but you know what they did what they had to because at the end of the day the deaths of a million israelies was nothing to the assholes in washington.
They chose their nation and family above another that has repeatedly screwed over and betrayed their friends. I'd have done the same damn thing. And so would you if it was your people...........or atleast i hope to go you would have.
I can see Kennedy. The man had to FIGHT to go to war. First with his father who wanted him to stay home him and his brother. The with the army who wouldnt take him because of a back injury.
Then he saves a man by carrying him on his back when his ship was destroyed..still with a back injury.
Now in civilian life he might have been a peice of shit he had it where it mattered when it mattered.
I wouldn't brag about that if I were him.
Yeah, important to his future government nomination potential. Mabus is a polictial animal, and this is the result.
If we were so "cozy" with the Egyptians, then why didn't we side with them and blow away those who attacked the USS Liberty?
What color is the sky in your world?
"Screwed over repeatedly by the US".
<span><span>
<p>From 1949 through 1965, U.S. aid to Israel averaged about $63 million per year, over 95% of which was economic development assistance and food aid. From 1971 to the present, U.S. aid to Israel has averaged over $2.6 billion per year, two-thirds of which has been military assistance.
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</p><p><span>Source: </span>
</p><p><span>http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf</span>
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</p><p>Man, I'm glad we aren't supporting them.
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</p><p>end sarcasm
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WORST. SECNAV. EVER!!!
If the VFW Magazine people still had the article online, I'd link to the story I wrote about this in 2007. There is no question this was a deliberate attack, and that Israel knew it was shooting up an American ship. One of the survivors told me they had a massive American flag on board, that the low flying planes could not have missed. One of the flight leaders later apologized, I think, but it infurates me that some people still go along with the fiction that it was just a big mistake. It was a mistake, alright - but one that was carried out with deliberation.
The attack on the Liberty was deliberate and their was no reasonable excuse for it. It was done to keep secret that the Israelis were massing to take the Golan Heights. Israel feared that the Russians would intercept radio traffic from Liberty and notify the Syrians. I had the pleasure of a long conversation with CDR Ennis in 1986 and there was no doubt in his mind that the attack was premeditated. The Israeli gunboats circled the disabled ship and machine gunned the waterline as they circled. All the while a large US flag was flying. Israel still has to answer for this war crime. They have a right to exist and along with that right their are responsibilities. Johnson, McNamara, and the rest of that train wresck will all continue to rot in hell for what they did to those crewmen on the Liberty.
James, I think you are entirely out of line on this subject and I will agree to disagree with you.
Mike,
Are you sure she said that <span>before</span> she was shot in the head?
Your love is not misplaced. The leadership is because they are having to be PC rihgy now otherwise they will be out of a job.
OK everyone; this sub-thread is over. I will not let this devolve into a USS LIBERTY wire brushing. Take this somewhere else. Go back to your corners.
BT
NNNN
“How will the Navy name its ships in the future? It seems safe to say that the evolutionary process of the past will continue; as the Fleet itself changes, so will the names given to its ships. It seems equally safe, however, to say that future decisions in this area will continue to demonstrate regard for the rich history and valued traditions of the United States Navy.“
From Navy History & Heritage Command's own site...
W/r, SJS
Even worse than Mr. Elizabeth Taylor- John Warner!
Agreed, but if there's going to be LCS being built, it should be Freedom, Independence, AND Liberty.
I attending Naming and Keel Authentication ceremonies of PCU AMERICA LHA 6. That was being in a place of honor. While CVN 78 should be named AMERICA, this was a great second choice.
I think she was calling Ford a dirtbag. Saracastically.
Agreed. That is how I read it. P.S. Wallace needs to be cut off.
... or take more fiber.
Not only was Ford in the Navy, he had a long & distinguished career in Congress. A good man in a bad position, if you ask me.
+10.
Botox: the new kevlar.
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Just about every commenter here has had good words for Ms. Giffords. They'ved saved all the bad ones for the Secretary of the Navy, as well as the current administration.
In fact, not only have the offered praise for the lady, but good wishes and prayers for her full recovery.
Please pay attention. :-E
Spew Alert™!
Naaah. That's Ron Jeremy.
Sounds like a hero to me.
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