Monday, July 25, 2011

Just move along ....


Look at your COTS - and look at all that "exquisite" technology that makes your Drone Military workable. Ponder, they are.
China's military is developing electromagnetic pulse weapons that Beijing plans to use against U.S. aircraft carriers in any future conflict over Taiwan, according to an intelligence report made public on Thursday.

Portions of a National Ground Intelligence Centerstudy on the lethal effects of electromagnetic pulse (EMP) and high-powered microwave (HPM) weapons revealed that the arms are part of China’s so-called “assassin’s mace” arsenal - weapons that allow a technologically inferior China to defeat U.S. military forces.

...

The declassified intelligence report, obtained by the private National Security Archive, provides details on China’s EMP weapons and plans for their use. Annual Pentagon reports on China's military in the past made only passing references to the arms.
Admiral Adama is still grumpy with us.

44 comments:

Retired Now said...

COTS makes matters worse.  Now-a-days,  with COTS circuit cards, modules, etc. scattered everywhere onboard our ships,  the US Navy is more vulnerable to a HEMP than ever before.

For example, let's say an EMP blast induces just 1 watt onto maybe 10 percent of the thousands of cables exposed topside on a CVN or LHD, and that signal travels on inside the skin the of the ship.

Modern COTS electronics are down in the micro-volt and micro-amp range.   Just a 1 watt signal is a million times too large for a micro-volt circruit card.     And don't say the CVN's are re-doing all their topside grounds on all their 1000's of external conduits and rechecking them each year.    Probably haven't tested any in decades.

NavyOne said...

HEMP?  Is that when organic hippies converge on your snacks?

Surfcaster said...

Another non-issue folks. Nothing to see. No, that isn't another cliff to go all peerin' over.

Was the Navy (Systems) this effed up 20 years ago? 40? Constantly stepping on their crank not able to get out of their own way?

Anonymous said...

HEMP is commonly used on this subject.   High Energy Magnetic Pulse.

Also seen it used to as  High energy Electromagnetic Pulse.

I'll bet CVN's couldn't pass 10 percent of all their topside exposed cables.   The DALHGREN NSWC spec calls for Shielding Effectiveness (SE) to attenuate induced signals by a factor of one million times.   In engineer-speak, that would be a 60db reduction of power induced.   If a cable meets the 60db minimum standard, then the SE would reduce a 1 watt signal to 1 microwatt when it got inside the skin of the ship.   Which could still do some damage perhaps depending on if it's a power cable, data cable, control cable, RF cable, etc.    The 60 decibles reduced power SE spec is probably too low, but I'll bet my small retirement checks that 80 percent of topside CVN cables don't even meet a 50db attenuation.   And for non-engineers, 50 db means to divide the signal strength by 100,000.     While the minimum spec is 60 db which means to divide the power (attenuate it) by a number of  1,000,000.     You get the idea.    Navsea is definitely NOT ready to be steaming anywhere near a HEMP blast.

Anonymous said...

There should be a standing order/policy that if an enemy in battle strikes the US with non-conventional weapons the US will respond a 100 fold.  They use a EMP over a carrier fine we retaliate with EMP blast over most of Chinas east coast.  

I garantee what ever our EMP protection is the Chicoms are running half to none.  

It is time for our political leadership to gow a pair and start making the open policies that in the bygone past and future can/could keep opposing nations from developing such weapons becuase the retaliation would not warrent its use so it would fall in a purely deterent last resort nuclear umrella section of weapons.  

Chinese ASBM, EMP, blinding lasers, bio, chem, hell nuetron bombs,  ect... all old cold war era weapon ideas neither side produced becuase both sides agreed/knew that once it went to that level it would be nuclear.  These are not new wonderweapons.

History is our future, the answers are there for those who wish to see.

C-Low said...

There should be a standing.......



Sorry guys forget the name.

C-Low

Salty Gator said...

50 points for the Battlestar Galactica reference.

Grandpa Bluewater. said...

Since you asked...short planning horizon not quite as bad, long planning horizon, yes.  How to you think we got to this ugly place?

In times of yore...torpedo exploders, the Brewster Buffalo, AA ammo quality,the 1.1 in AA gun, the Vindicator, the Torpedo Bomber used at Midway come to mind.  Back then the VT fuse, the Gato and later class submarines, the Fletcher class, the 5" 38, the 600# steam plant, the Wildcat, the Hellcat, the SBD and RAS/FAS more than counter-balanced. 

Nowadays, well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. When a real sea war rolls around, we shall see.

Me, I'm nervous.What with the LCS, the firescout, and the F and the rest of the alphabet 18 and all.

I suspect most of the problems are (lack of sea experienced, smart)
personnel problems.  Then again I'm Waaaaaaaay Out of the Loop.

Salty Gator said...

Yup.  Vacuum Tubes are much more EMP resistant than solid state processors.  The more and more that we pour into our Network Centric warfare, the easier and easier it is to knock us out. I just hope that the next war doesn't come down to naval guns.  We'll lose that fight too.

virgil xenophon said...

But we have a PLAN for coping with EMP, etc., sportsfans, it's called The Ostrich Plan!

Anonymous said...

Guest...Without History there is no future, have we learned from the past? NO! Look at Surfcaster's question...we were not "effed" up 20-40 yrs ago, then we had leadership and vision in the Navy, not like now with the Mullens and Broadheads to worried about being PC to see the effect of same on the deckplates. Presently, we would be very hardpressed to mount a shooting war with any other Blue Water Navy. And, they know it>talking heads, keep talking. Avoids the real issue!

Anonymous said...

Roger that!

Bubba Bob said...

Guest,

The easiest way I know to create a EMP pulse is by a high-altitude nuclear bomb detonation.  We have a plan in case an enemy uses atomic weapons.  We call this plan “mutually assured destruction” or MAD.  Under Obama, Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Regan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower and Truman; the policy is nuclear attack: full retaliatory response.  So, I don’t think you need worry.  We have a plan.

I think the good commander is beating the anti-robot theme too much.  We don’t know what a EMP will do to the avionics of a modern airplane.  One of the claims made for the B-52 is that old mechanical controls will allow it to fly through an EMP.  Some modern aircraft can’t fly without computers. Nobody has flown one into a pulse and lab work is often only a hint of what happens in the real world.  There is a good chance that a EMP will knock everything out of the sky; manned and un-manned alike.

Retired Now said...

soon, when CVN-78 is commissioned,  we can see exactly what very close range EMP will do to all the various F-18's.   USS FORD will have 4 powerful electronic catapaults shooting off every few minutes.  Meanwhile,  lots of old and new F 18 Hornets will be prowling around the flight deck, right next to these 4 new Electric Cats.

fun for all,  if you like to conduct destructive testing.

Phooey on doing  NDT   (non destructive testing ).  

Wouldn't you rather have a nice EMP cat generator located right onboard your very own ship !   Vice having an EMP blast over a 100 miles away !!   fun, fun, fun .....

Surfcaster said...

Nothing but the rain....

Anonymous said...

Let's just use mechanical computers like abacuses. No need for that new fangled crap. Get me a radio talker, a sound powered phone, and a sextant.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Not as far from the truth as you think, guest.  During the Cold War, when we faced a Soviet threat to disrupt our voice and data comm, all the services were trained in completing the mission without primary systems.  PACE.  Primary, alternate, contingency, emergency.  We knew it like the backs of our hands.  Twenty years ago.  Morse code.  Brevity and pro-words to reduce transmission time and frequency.  Mission-type orders.  Semaphor.  True independent operations, which required clear mission statements and understanding of our professions. 

In the intervening two decades, instant communication has allowed senior commanders a much easier path to micromanage juniors, and taken initiative away from juniors, who have gotten used to the "Mother, may I?" mentality that is a killer against an active and resourceful enemy. 

Loss of communication and information networks should not be fatal.  Unless you happen to be flying in an a/c that needs it to stay in the air.  But that is why they gave you flight pay.  However, we should be training in those long-lost PACE skills NOW.  But we aren't.  We do have diversity, though.  And Lean Six Sigma.  Which is probably just as good.

CDR Salamander said...

B2,
You do not know what you are talking about and are glad to have a defeatist attitude.  I don't know what world you live in - but it isn't PPT deep.

We do know who to simutate EMP. We do know how to operated in an EMP environment.  We do know how easy it is to make one.  We also know that in peace you can pretend the threat isn't there and save money in both equipment and training by pretending it doesn't exist. Therefor, we have decided to forget - and we do so to our peril.

The Army chose to forget the lessons of South Africa and Somalia WRT unarmored troop transports  - and when war came payed the price.

Playing make believe does not make the real world go away.  

I will repeat myself; if you think you own the electro-magnatic spectrum and you are my enemy - then I will defeat you every time.  I will make you deaf, dumb, and blind and then play to my advantage on my terms - as your advantage will be gone.

CNA, EMP, or just old school mid-20th century jamming.  If you don't have PACE, as URR outlined above, and I am a peer or near-peer who does - then I will win on my terms.

Surfcaster said...

"<span>We do have diversity, though.  And Lean Six Sigma.  Which is probably just as good."</span>

You do realize with subtle swarmy comments like that someone in DC is patting themselves on the back thinking that even a grizzled jarhead like you is on board with with todays priorities. Some people are delusional enough to miss the sarcasm.

butch said...

Our fancy schmancy communications technology has created the tactical general.

James said...

I talked to a guy who said as far back as the late 80's early 90's they would get alot of people out to their units who couldnt use basic things like a compas or a map to navigate.

AW1 Tim said...

I've been beating this drum for awhile now, and now folks might understand why the Chinese were so eager to develop and show off the DF-21.

 Of course it's a carrier-killer, but not how folks were saying. It has a highly-accurate guidance system because it is intended to deliver a micro-nuke at low altitude capable of an EMP large enough to destroy a carrier's systems without too large of an area of danger for other units/forces.

 I argued against many that a high-capacity conventional warhead was never the idea. I argued that any launch of a DF-21 needed to be assumed to be a nuclear strike, and responded to accordingly.

 These two sustems: The DF-21 paired with a small nuke designed for a low-altitude EMP makes a logical weapon system for the PLAN, and ought to be causing those folks who argued against hardening our vessels and aircraft to protect from damage caused by an EMP to rethink their position(s) and start corrective action.

  V/R

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Yep.  Started with this here.  Some of my compadres became so enamored of it they forgot how to use a map. 

Ditto digital comm wiping out proper voice procedures, and the CYZ-10 making us forget manual encryption. 

The BUCS caused more than a few FDC computermen to not have to learn gunnery and exterior ballistics, to only know that hitting the *endline* button seven times gave them a fuze setting.  With no rhyme nor reason about whether it is correct, how it was computed, and in which direction it should move with the observer's adjustments.

Maintaining the fallback methods for critical tasks while trying to master and integrate new technologies is a tall order.  But an absolute necessity.

Retired Now said...

but,  never fear,    Raytheon and Lockheed Martin and Boeing and  Northrop and .........


will utilize their newest COTS based sensors and weapons systems to shoot down any incoming EMP-causing weapon !


COTS will, therefore, come to the rescue of our COTS infested Fleet by defending it, so that no EMP will ever occur in the first place !!

QED.    ( sort of )    =-O

DeltaBravo said...

Where did my other post go?

Anyway... if they could build a morse code machine shaped like an x-box controller, the young-uns are real good at tapping out stuff with their thumbs.  I think they're trainable in backup communications.  Problem with that brevity talk is that SOS would become LOL I fear.

James said...

You wouldnt even need to take out the ships with the warhead. The EMP itself will play merry hell with Radars and all the other goodies. How are the DDG's going to do when those are going off. Does LCS have EM protection? Wait stupid question..........they dont even have protection afforded to ships for over 100 years agaisnt rust.

AW1 Tim said...

  That was one of the ideas back in the day for the Navy using fuel-air explosives against Soviet ships: knock off all the emitters and antenna, and turn them into a marble. It's a long way back to their base to refit and all.

Retired Now said...

Actually, that is such a good idea, that it will not happen most likely.

My Jr. High School nephews and neice could be highly proficient in morse code in no time at all, if they had some clever video games for Nintendo, Xbox, etc. that made morse code fun.   A Boy Scout Merit Badge.

Remember the old typing games on early computers ?   Now if only the Navy might create some sort of  specialized rating / NEC for morse code (both radio and flashing light).   Perhaps the Navy could call these new ratings something nautical sounding.   Something that does not exist in the current Fleet.    Hmmm....  how about:  RADIOMAN and SIGNALMAN ?     No, that would never work.    Morse Code and Flashing Light are so obsolete.       

pk said...

tim you area absolutely right.

during nam one of the cruiser/destroyers took a hit from an anti radiation missile (might have been one of ours that went foo foo, the gang had a problem with that during those times)

thing didn't actually hit the ship but went off about 100 feet above the top of the mast.

the gang came straight home, no "fueling stop" in midway or guam. no refueling stop in pearl at the hotel street drain stations.

they came straight home and tied up at a remote pier with the twidgets, shipfitters, pipefighters and 9,342,468 tech reps in attendance.

nobody said nothing, saw nothing or speculated in the least.

C

DeltaBravo said...

Retired Now... I would SOOOO invent that game if I was a military trainer.  The point would be the usual getting from point A to point B racking up trillions of points (HT to LtB) but to do so the user has to tap out morse code instructions to do everything.  On the little handheld device that coincidentally the Navy would also use a like model for its professional commo backups.

The speed at which the signalman tippy taps out with his thumbs will be completely dependent on his agility in learning the dot dot dash code.

Pretty soon you'd have a whole generation fluent in Morse Code.  And able to type it faster than a secretary at a Remington in 1950.

Oh, I'd make so much money if I was a game designer and I'd rack up millions marketing it to the Defense Contractors. 

Sigh.

I like the way you think Retired.

Anonymous said...

Yup, the Big Badger Boat and her sisters are retired.

Grumpy Old Ham said...

AKA "Four-star Flight Leads"...

Grumpy Old Ham said...

well...there was this contest, of sorts...

http://www.coolestone.com/media/787/Text-Messaging-Vs-Morse-Code----Jay-Leno/

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Well, most Generals are tactical, they just don't like to acknowledge it.  What they wanna be are platoon commanders. 

But no, the technology didn't invent them.  Remember LBJ approving targets at a tactical level?  All the technology has done is to enable them.  Just because everybody can talk to everybody does not mean it is a good idea.  Cebrowski was almost entirely wrong.  And it started with the false assumption that a command post is simply a larger and more crowded cockpit.

Salty Gator said...

Tim, totally disagree with you.  Mating a nuclear warhead to a ballistic missile is not model rocketry, especially not to a Maneuvering Re-entry Vehicle balistic missile (MaRV).  To my internet research (not using classified systems), the Chinese don't have a nuclear warhead that is rated to mate to the DF-21 reentry vehicle.  Remember, this is a PRECISION VEHICLE.  Kinematics, ballistics, aerodynamics--a million variables go in to the Chinese assuring that the booster, reentry vehicle and payload can be delivered on target.

If the chinese were going to mate a small yield nuclear warhead, capable of generating an EMP in high altitude explosion, the reasonable answer would be to mate it with a non-MaRV.  You don't need to be anywhere near as precise with an EMP as you do with a conventional warhead!  Why waste the cash on a tricky R&D problem?

The chinese are excited about DF-21 because it gives us pause.  The chinese ballistic missile program can get you in port or it can get you underway, within applicable range rings as noted by PACOM in press reporting.  THAT is power. 

Salty Gator said...

Bubba Bob,

Mutually Assured Destruction was abandonned for Flexible Response long before Obama and Bush.

Brush up on your strategic doctrine, shipmate!

AW1 Tim said...

The thing is, the Chinese are working on small, low-altitude EMP weapons. Those would be an ideal mate for a DF-21 and makes the entire system a lot more understandable than just a precision weapon with a hi-cap warhead.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/21/beijing-develops-radiation-weapons/

Salty Gator said...

AW1, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I understand that GWU National Security Archives posting and am wondering if the analysis is OBE, hence its declassification.  Utilizing a "low altitude" EMP would be fairly worthless...why not take out the entire strike group using a higher altitude weapon?  Also, with low altitude burst comes more opportunities to down the ballistic missile, maneuvering reentry vehicle or not.

Your thesis is very interesting though, and suggests that the Chinese would be more comfortable launching an EMP against a carrier than another kinetic-type warhead.  I don't know if that is the case, but assuming that they qualify EMP and electronic warfare / "information dominance" with non-kinetic operations (and therefore not neccessarily justifying a kinetic and or nuclear response from the US), then your thesis is very compelling.  I'm not sure I would agree with all of the assumptions that feed that though...

sid said...

This is not a new idea...

Back when the carriers were part of the nuclear strike force (ponder the number of nukes in that pic!), there was talk the Soviets had a plan to incinerate the eastern Med with some of their then new ICBMs.

Another thing to ponder...

Over a half century ago, a carrier air group had an effective *UNREFUELED* combat radius of better than a thousand miles with an internal payload at a pretty high mach number...

Can anything stretch out 1000 nm plus with better than 8000 lbs today unrefueled from a US carrier TODAY?

Oh. thats Right...A modern CVW can get put much past where a circa 1945 era air group could get.

And lets not bring up the nukes only, TLAMS are better, strawman in the comparison...

Because it's not really so.

(now, if that 1000 pounder -and the 6 to 8 more that bomb bay could hold- sported JDAM kits...)

sid said...

...A modern CVW CAN'T get put much past where a circa 1945 era air group could get.  

Grandpa Bluewater. said...

I know (sigh).  But one can but try.

ewok40k said...

This is a systematic approach at its best - EMP disrupts overall efficiency of the CVBG to the extent PLAN subs and aircraft are able to finish off weakened beast. Or just follow up with conventional ASBMs.
One of my fave Harpoon tactics was sending off HARMs before Harpoons - they did draw away Red SAMs and if lucky destroyed the SAM radars allowing for second wave of missiles to go in easily.
Still, I am not sure if going past nuke threshold is fully understood/accepted in the PLAN. I bet there are fierce doctrinal discussions going on regarding risks and opportunities involved.

Bubba Bob said...

I call BS.  <span> </span>Bench tests in the lab are no substitute for the real world.  Sparks from a Van Der Graff ain’t a real EMP pulse.  Why do you believe the contractors who sold us the LCS when they say their gear is EMP ready?  

<span> </span>Or do you think our planes will keep flying because they are. . . 

(Wait for it . . )




Networked!

Anonymous said...

Brokersring.com - Learn how to turn $500 into $5,000 in a month!

[url=http://www.brokersring.com/]Make Money Online[/url] - The Secret Reveled with Binary Option

Binary Options is the way to [url=http://www.brokersring.com/]make money[/url] securely online