Speak 'ye hypocrite!
Navy spokesman Cmdr. Chris Sims said in a statement sent to The Associated Press that the videos "were not acceptable then and are not acceptable in today's Navy."Follow the links here and here. Then come back here and see the video below and judge for yourself.
Executive officers and other leaders "are charged to lead by example and are held accountable for setting the proper tone and upholding the standards of honor, courage and commitment that we expect sailors to exemplify," he said.
A couple of things to keep in mind. CAPT Honors was Big XO on one of my old ships - the USS ENTERPRISE (CVN-65). That was roughly four years ago when these videos were seen - by thousands.
Now, almost a half decade later - people who have seen and probably done much worse things on deployment are calling for their Yeoman to bring them smelling salts.
Don't forget that he is now the Commanding Officer of "The Big E." Make what theory you want to why it is showing up now.
At the time (2006-7), Honors was the carrier's executive officer, or XO, the commanding officer's deputy. He took command of the ship in May.One of the hardest jobs in the Navy right now is the Commanding Officer of the Big E. This floating museum built by the same people who build ships in WWII and pushes itself around with eight museum quality A2W reactors. Much of the equipment is tagged out because they stopped being usable decades ago due to their archaic nature. Four generations of some families have been on this ship.
In the videos, Honors indicates that he's trying to entertain the crew. They were shown roughly once a week on closed-circuit shipwide television, according to a handful of sailors who were assigned to the Enterprise at the time. The sailors requested anonymity for fear of retribution.
One of them said he mailed a complaint about the videos to the Navy Inspector General this week.
She was an old beat-up girl when I was on her over a decade ago. To keep her up and doing the taxpayer's business is something only the best can do. The best can be quirky. The best warfighters even more so. Shouldn't we give some a little running room?
The Navy's initial reaction was sound;
The Navy released a written statement late Friday in response to The Pilot's inquiries.I think though - based upon the PAO's more recent statement - the usual suspects will take it from here - and in the finest traditions of throwing leaders under the bus instead of defending them - well - you know the path this takes.
"The videos created onboard USS Enterprise in 2006-2007 were not created with the intent to offend anyone," the statement said. "The videos were intended to be humorous skits focusing the crew's attention on specific issues such as port visits, traffic safety, water conservation, ship cleanliness, etc."
This sounds cliche - but if you have not been "there" - you really don't know what is going on. The videographer who was interviewed provides a clue;
"In his defense, I'll say that sometimes, when you've been out to sea for a while, cut off from everything, you start to think things that you would never normally do are actually a good idea," he said. "You do stupid stuff to stay sane."Anyway, watch.
Lex put it well and about captures my mood,
Carrier CO, Navy captain, fighter guy, TOPGUN grad, graduate of the Power School, veteran commanding officer: Now being finger wagged by an O-5 public affairs officer, who knows what is, and is not acceptable in today’s Navy.Like I stated earlier - the cluelessness and hypocrisy of it all just wears me down.
It will no longer do, old shoe.
In a just world - someone will make the right sounds, but CAPT Honors will be allowed to continue.
Regardless what happens, it is all sad; and I'm not just saying that because he looks like my brother.
I think I'm going to get a beer and think about ordering Adam Carolla's new book
.UPDATE: Galrahn has some thoughts as well - I especially like his point about what we do and do not find outrage in with our leaders. Style vs. substance. Nice angle.
UPDATE II - Electric Boogaloo: If you want to know what "mainstream" civilian opinion - as defined by Minnesota Public Radio - is wondering, then you might find this interview done this morning with Naval Academy Professor Bruce Fleming
of interest.UPDATE III: .... and so we will make it worse and more dangerous for all.
The Navy officer who aired lewd videos for crew of an aircraft carrier will be temporarily relieved of his command as early as Tuesday, Navy sources told NBC News on Monday.If he is a problem - then we have a problem. Time for me to work a new post on this. I'll let you know if I do.
Capt. Owen Honors commands the USS Enterprise and produced the videos while second in command aboard the aircraft carrier.
He is to be relieved while the Navy investigates the incident.
UPDATE IV: If he is a problem; then we have a problem. WIth the prospect of CAPT Honors' removal, I'm discussing the larger issue over at USNIBlog. Come join me.
259 comments:
1 – 200 of 259 Newer› Newest»It is probably a sign that you need to re-think something if you feel the need to say:
"...the admiral and the captain have no idea about the contents of the video or movie this evening, and they should not be held accountable in any judicial setting."
... it is also a running joke at the absolute fear our leaders have - fear you can smell - of anything that could offend 1 out of 5,000.
One insecure a55 can ruin your career.
What in gods name is wrong with that video?
BTW give a giy a warning next time....i was drinking when that scene in the shower came on and the oil on the chest bit...helarious.
And
Swoverals.
<span>"...I want people to be tolerant of my insensitivity and sensitive to my intolerance..."</span>
Cue spineless Navy leadership...
Swoveralls was a good one!
No coincidence it surfaces 4 years late, in the same year as women are set to submerge and DADT repeal will take effect.
The simple fact is that this should not be surprising - when CPT McGraf was removed "diversity" demanded that a more prominent male also be removed, so the hunt began. This is why so many are so afraid to even raise problems: if the problem found fits certain definitions then the backblast will be devastating.
CPT Honors had nothing to do CPT M's issues, but his prominence will allow the brass to say "See, we're equal opportunity disciplinarians!" when he is driven out.
The zampolits in the Diversity industry are having their future validated and will be in huge demand to "re-educate" the macho warriors untill the pu$$ification of the fleet is complete.
Anybody llisten to the humor at the White House Correspondents dinner, or the Harvard Crimson Club, or any TV comedy show, wither the mild broadcast ones, or the cruder cable cuts? How is that allowed in Amerika, but this is not? Where's the outrage over the lyrics in the "popular music" filled with real violence and obscenity?
Is there not a single Flag Officer left in the Navy (male or female) with the guts to stand up and tell the easily offended to get a sense of humor and get a life and quit b!tching about humor in uniform among warriors who are actually risking their lives and working damn hard under arduous conditions?
At this rate, the Chinese will be very disappointed with the country they will enventually own.
Really? Really? How did you manage to miss the sarcasm?
That video was funny enough for me to consider sea duty on a ship rather than in IQ....of course the gentlemen will probably have their careers cut short and humorless micromanagers will take over.....guess its safer to pcs and take orders to AF.
Honors is toast. Sounds like he pissed off the wrong chaplain this time. He was stupid to leave a video of this stuff. Congress will make hay of this video. No flag can defend him now and keep his job. He's toast. What a waste. Have a good retirement, fella.
I would follow that man into combat. What other criteria is there?
Video was full of win! My wife thought it was funny but she has been married to an aviator for 10 years. I hope ADM Harvey will open/close the investigation as a simple formality to appease congress and the matter dropped. This whole thing stinks like somebody has an agenda or vendetta. Go watch the documentary Restrepo or maybe the SuperCarrier flick and then tell me you want the sterile demeanor of Mullen leading you into combat.
The fact that there had been complaints is something of note. The fact that he was made aware of said complaints and acknowledges them too is note worthy.
In the civilian world, he would be toast as well. I had no problem with the content or the language, but I did have a problem with the use of subordinates. The power differential is too great for some to feel comfortable saying no to the XO.
Other than that, I laughed my ass off!
Laughed my a$$ off. Great fkn vid. This vid represents the Navy I joined. Morale Suppression Team is in full effect. Making an issue out of this epitomizes why I'm gone at 20 (if I can make it that far).
suppose BOCOD will no longer be published in POD
Step carefully, grasshopper. Every one may be your last one. It used to be a tight rope. Now...
I've worked in restaurants as a cook for most of my adult life, and we're a raunchy bunch. I thought the video was hilarious. And considering there's a healthy proportion of gay servers in our industry wherefrom I can gain insight, I don't see any "anti-gay" bias.
What gives me pause is that -from all that I've heard, read, and experienced- warriors are even more raunchy than cooks, to say the least. What kind of limp-organed, fainting-violet, chicken-hearted, politically-correct Blue Falcon POS filed a complaint about the videos!? Hell, 90% of the that isn't as bad as any given Wayans Brothers movie.
Anyone unhappy with these videos is a useless piece of toilet paper wasting the taxpayer's money. Just please quit, so we can hire more genuine warfighters.
Well, I suppose the shrinking violets who couldn't handle that and took offense shouldn't be on a ship anyway.... that means they will be spared other offenses that are worse...
the chance they may be forced to watch a shipmate walk accidentally into rotor blades... or be burned by steam from an exploding boiler.... or a man overboard... or God forbid there be a fire and anyone get burned. (I hear that seldom happens on ships... don't ya know...)
Nothing traumatic ever happens on a ship. We need to keep those shrinking violets well into their comfort zones.
Hypocricy is amazing... I'd LOVE to see the computer downloads of anyone who participated in that Kommissar's investigation. I know many high schoolers who watch worse stuff on a regular basis. Of their own free will.
In the civilian world? Not sure I agree. There are only a few civilian jobs that can be compared to a 6 month deployment, and none that can be compared to a six month deployment of an aircraft carrier during wartime. Most of those jobs take place in conditions where the environment is not the same as the rest of the civilian world.
Examples would be oil jobs on rigs or jobs in Northern Canada, for example. In all of those cases this video would pass the smell test as something found on site to break the tension.
And that post was by me.
A lot of shooting the messenger in that post, Phib. The XO-now-CO's behavior was either appropriate or it wasn't, regardless of who complained about it, or why they did it, or when they did it.
You make a good point about the need to give our best some running room, but having watched the video, I don't think it's defensible under that standard. It was funny, but unbecoming an officer of that rank and position. I expect a CVN CO to be more than just a skilled warfighter. He's also got to be savvy and have good judgment. This video reflects poorly on him in that department.
This reminds me of the USNA grads down in Pensacola who went on a shooting spree a while back and killed a bunch of endangered birds. They got hammered for it, and I didn't feel sorry for them in the least. Knowing what the taxpayers spent to educate them at USNA, I thought it was fair to expect them to show better judgment. Should a CVN CO be held to a lesser standard?
Yeah, I dug the SWOveralls comment.
I found the video highly offensive, not because of its subject matter, but because it so very, very painfully unfunny. The XO has bad delivery and zero sense of comedic timing. But then again, that's not what we pay XOs for, is it? Actually, if there's anything good to come out of this video, it's that you could show it to folks just starting out in the comedy biz and tell them, "See this? Do the opposite of everything you see here, and you'll do just fine."
I was on the Big-E in 2001, haven't been back since. Wouldn't mind seeing her again.
The folks in Restrepo and Carrier that were making asses of themselves (in a very funny way, I'll admit) in front of a camera were junior enlisted and a few junior officers. There's a helluva lot of difference between that and the O-6 XO (now Captain) of an aircraft carrier. Setting aside the relative merits of the video (I'll address that later in a longer comment), he should've known better.
I know a couple reporters and they tell me the language in the copy room is worse than what I have said at sea, and thus worse than this video's content.
There are people that are not very good at their jobs, break the rules or take great glee in going after those in power. Additionally, if you were to go to the academy, for instance, it is drilled into you that you should look to be the victim, and prepare to "clutch the pearls."
Going to sea is tough work. Being in the service (yes, even the USAF) can be quite demanding and stressing. The days are long, the nights are short, you are away from your family and your crew becomes your family of sorts. That said, many things were done to build morale, a sense of family, with humor, sarcasm and typically an ongoing game of "the dozens." Aviators, especially, have a history of being rather cut throat in their comedic (homo-erotic?) bonding. As with most channels, blogs, radio stations, if you do not like the content, turn it off. That WAS the option for our lilly livered, spineless, shrinking violets that complained. If the Navy continues on their silly a$$ road to puritanical purity, they will remove all fun out of going to sea, kill morale and will eventually kill the sea-going community.
To Senior Naval Leadership and and their diversity Nazis, "Lighten up Francis." You are destroying the Navy, our culture and degrading mission readiness.
Yes; balance has returned to the force ---- MTH from the top rope!
This will be the Tailhook of 2011. These things do seem to run in 20ish year cycles, for some reason I can't quite fathom... ;)
Which messenger did I shoot? The PAO? Read his comments again. That was a good response? Really?
As for the JOs shooting spree. They violated federal law, and as a hunter I find their behavior worth of the full weight of the law. What the USN wants to do after that is up to their CO. No laws were violated here.
Not even on the same planet. Try again.
tis a sad day indeed when using eumephisms is now a diversity offense. Means we cant call the slackers in the air det aviation homo's anymore I guess. The simple fact that I can no longer answer the question of whether I was a submarine sailor with "No Maam, I was in the hetero sexual Navy". Nothing wrong with this video, if you have a drop of salt water in your veins. Anyone with an issue over this video needs to spend at least one predeployment workup schedule, working 20-22 hour days, and then comment on what's funny or not. Work like this isn't like going to meetings and punching a clock after 8 hours a day. BTW, The Insurv binder masturbation scene was masterful, but what I know? I will always be a sonarman and we are well known for a twisted view on humor.
Eh, the PAO's guild both logged in and liked their self. If one likes their self in a blog, isn't that pseudo mental masturbation?
Sal, I made my long remarks over at Lex's. Honors is indeed toast, but given E is on the eve of deployment, this is going to be a hard fill. Unless they give him Admiral's Mast and tell him to inform his broker and accountant to plan on Captain's retired pay when he gets back.
We have become the Soviet Navy, complete with Zampolits (kudos to the PAO community for reinventing their purpose in life) and total control of all war fighting on the tactical level from high above.
Dude is funny...if they cashier him, he'll have a shot at taking Leno's place...well, maybe he'll have to start on SNL...
Sad to see the only thing that can be dissed or made fun of with impunity is straight white guys, but that's what's happened.
I would expect the XO of a carrier to be an Officer and a Gentlemen. He is supposed to be an example. This video shows he is not. He can find less offensive ways to motivate his crew and keep their morale up. Acting like a frat boy in those skits does a disservice to the Navy. Appealing to the lowest common denominator? Yeah, that's what the Navy should be doing...
Any bets on which Congresscritter is going to take this story and run with it? Why, look what Tailhook did <span>for </span>the political career of that harridan Patsy Schroeder >:o . And <span>to </span>the Navy, in general.
Where is a good Hurricane when you need one? The PC Police need to lighten up...
Babs Mikulski and Barney Frank for the win...
Sal - you need to pull your head out. This video is quite offensive, and Capt. Honors should go down in flames. Another aviator who is still stuck in the 80's. Actually, he should have be confronted years ago after the first video by the CO and the Admiral, and the fact that he wasn't forced to stop then should put some heat on them, too.
In what kind of professional organization does is this crap allowed to be generated? Whatever "warrior ethos" and "we need to make our own fun at sea" mentality you might try to rationalize, it was the number two Officer on a ship of 5,000 people. Here's something many of us had to memorize:
Qualifications of a Naval Officer Written by John Paul Jones
<span>It is by no means enough that an officer of the Navy should be a capable mariner. He must be that, of course, but also a great deal more. He should be as well a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and the nicest sense of personal honor.</span> <span>
He should be the soul of tact, patience, justice, firmness, and charity. No meritorious act of a subordinate should escape his attention or be left to pass without its reward, even if the reward is only a word of approval. Conversely, he shouldn’t be blind to a single fault in any subordinate, though at the same time, he should be quick and unfailing to distinguish error from malice, thoughtlessness from incompetence, and well meant shortcoming from heedless or stupid blunder.</span> <span>
In one word, every commander should keep constantly before him this great truth, that to be well obeyed, he must be perfectly esteemed.</span>
One shouldn't have to read beyond the first paragraph. This isn't about offending one person, but being an Officer in the United States Navy.
Please guest - regail me with your vast knowledge of carrier aviation culture, business practices, and mental survival during deployments. Please tell me of all the 13XX people above his chain of command that have not participated in, laughed at, and thoroughly enjoyed such videos. Even by post-Tailhook standards, your MK1 Mod0 fo'c'sle follies is written in bluer ink.
As for rote memory - speak for yourself and keep your self-righteous indignation for your quilting club.
The Wayans brothers aren't supposed to be running an aircraft carrier. (Some) people pay them for their purile humor. This is not what an XO should be getting paid to do. Find other ways to boost morale.
Man, I have a huge list of things to worry about more than Naval Aviators behaving like Naval Aviators.
I have more important things to worry about than Naval Aviators behaving like Naval Aviators, I'd worry more if they did not behave that way, as that would indicate a severe morale issue.
I would argue that the Navy, through their political postering has indeed decided through political expediancy to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Do these videos make the XO immoral? No. Does the moral cowardice of senior leadership make them more moral? No.
Take a look at the deployment schedule, performance and mission readiness of the E at this time. It actually looks like they did well. Considering the time the XO spent working for the mission, working for his crew and clearly performing well enough to get him, and his CO promoted (check out his wardroom and see how they performed as well) I'd say he was very successful. I would sail with him and follow him into battle. This just proves to me that the Navy is not really involved in this war. They will eat themselves diving up to be patted and loved by Congress and the Diversinazies. Welcome to the Brave New World!
I would like to pointout that John Paul Jones never wrote that. "Qualifications" has been soundly debunked as a fabrication of a JPJ biographer who notoriously made up "letters" and reports. There was an excellent article about it in Naval History several years ago. You are using history like a drunk uses a lamp post...for support not illumination.
I think that you have a valid argument there.
Oh .... and that was not written by JPJ, and there is no evidence that he ever said such a thing. That was written out of whole cloth by <span> Augustus C. Buell in 1900 to reflect Buell's ideal of what JPJ might have said. Look it up.
</span>
Oh crap, you guys are going to bring in the freaking troll again. Anyway, stand several months of mids and see if you don't view things differently. I am so sick and tired of so few sissy-pants effing it up for so many people. We are SO worried about the gays, the women, (not all, just the ones that think they should be special) and we have gotten away from the mission. The culture MUST change to allow these people to FEEL good about who they are and their spot on the team. Hey gang, if you make it all about you, YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE TEAM!
Given the Navy approved videos that are distributed throughout the Fleet for show onboard CCTV contain much of the same type of humor and/or depiction of foul language, erotica, etc, does this mean that "Big Navy" is also in some culpable as a whole and that such entertainment now will be held to a higher standard? Or is this simply finding someone to sacrifice at the altar of diversity?
It was funny but I'm raunchy dirty old GMT watching Squid. Now if your a new metrosexual, hair checking kinda guy it offends you. If it offends you then I feel sorry for you as you will never have fun and most likely have never been underway or on deployment.
"<span>fo'c'sle follies"</span>
-----------------
Are now effectively dead.
Clearly you have been watching too many movies. Have you ever been to sea in anything? How about a CVN at war? You sound like you would make an outstanding PAO should you ever decide to serve. No, that was not a compliment.
Miss Ladybug, c<span>learly you have been watching too many movies. Have you ever been to sea in anything? How about a CVN at war? You sound like you would make an outstanding PAO should you ever decide to serve. No, that was not a compliment.</span>
STILL STUCK IN THE 80'S,
why thats the era when navy fought to win not to lose grracefully.
perhaps guest is part of the current problem.
C
yea but sal: what about the several hundred thousand who are offended because they missed promotion because they're not the right protected class, sex, political leaning........
guess they don't count hmmmmm.
c
Thanks for owning it Galrahn, I know you hate trolls too.
I agree that not many things are the same as a six month deployment and there is a culture that forms within that deployment. My point was that others within that culture objected and once it is brought to his attention, it is all stop. You certainly do not address it in the VIDEO as cowardly for an E-nothing or JO to not address the XO that his behavior is offensive. The power differential is too great and we both know of examples of top down revenge later on. He should have been a BIGBOY, sucked it up and not made more videos of a blue nature.
Perhaps "guest" needs to put on his Big Girl Pants.
CDR S - I read your site daily and often agree with you. I enjoy the site and the commentary.
However, you are dead wrong on this issue and need to step back.
Frankly, if this is how you really feel, I think you are clueless. I served over 27 years. I am a Blackshoe. I've served on ships large and small, on long deployments and short, and a carrier as a DESRON CSO during an AG deployment.
I can guarantee you this is offensive behavior and the guest above is dead nuts on target. This kind of behavior is completely and utterly unacceptable and has been for at least twenty-two years. If you cannot understand that it is offensive and unacceptable then you are part of the problem.
Spare me your "knowledge of carrier culture" - that's completel bullshit. John Paul Jones had it right. "In one word, every commander should keep constantly before him this great truth, that to be well obeyed, he must be perfectly esteemed. "
OS - that is your view, I have mine. The Carrier Culture comment is not BS, having been on more than one post-Tailhook.
Would I have made that video? No. Would I have wanted my XO to make that video? No. Is this 4-yr old video worth all this ashes-&-sackcloth and wild-eyes running around with nooses looking for a tree? No.
Anyway - we don't have to agree all that time - the world would be a dangerous place if we did. Perhaps somewhere between where I am and where you are is the truth.
One thing I do know though - the Big E needs her CO to get underway this month.
Okay, so I watched the video. Can someone tell me what the "offensive" parts were? Sophmoric? Sure. Not my style of humor but not something to be offended about. With everything going on in Iraq and Afghaniztan with Iran, China and Russia posturing...THIS is what people are worried about? Seriously?!?
How about we let our warfighters fight the damn war and stop expecting them to be choir boys and girls, huh?
Btw, this comes from a female who has never served but also doesn't get in an "estrogen tripping snit" over every little thing.
I thought the video was pretty lame. The only offensive thing was the pointless use of "fag." The XO's...delivery is...really pained with pauses...in all the wrong...places...like...he's strugglingtoreadoff cue...cards. As far as I can tell, the shower gag is supposed to be that he can't get any hot water and finds shipmates abusing it by gay showering or showering with stuffed toys. I say "as far as I can tell" because of the questionable (read: stupid) decision to blare music over the dialog. Not really funny, and hardly racy. The string of "fucks"? Big deal. A montage of elementary school teachers, priests, 8-year-olds, grannies, or ballerinas saying "fuck" is funny because it's unexpected. The XO swears? No, really? Not that funny. The masturbation jokes were pretty run of the mill stuff (literally choking the chicken? never seen that before...except in Adam Sandler movies, Robot Chicken, Family Guy, Daily Show, or any teenager handed a stuffed chicken) and again poorly executed, poorly timed, hackneyed, and just not funny.
Overall, this is a far too common type of unfunny. "All right, I've bullied you shits into working harder long enough for one day. Now I'm going to bully you into relaxing and unwinding by being funny. It's not really my thing, but you dipshits probably like that kind of thing, and I'm feeling like being a magnanimous asshole instead of just a giant asshole tonight. Anyway, here goes. Here's me being funny. Look at me, I'm being "just one of the guys!" Here, I'll do some comic impressions of you fuckwads. Hilarious. What's the matter? Can't take a joke, ladies? WHY THE FARK AREN'T YOU ENJOYING YOURSELF?"
VADM Rempt shut down Cinemax at the academy because he was worried the boys would get too horned up and sexually assault the female mids.
And I presume that since we're running aircraft carriers, subs, reactors, etc., we're not allowed to be human anymore?
I don't think you have any concept of what kind of environment an underway ship is - and that your home IS your work. You can't just "leave it at the office.". There is effectively zero privacy, and you're constantly dealing with life-and-death decisions.
Steam has to be blown off somehow, and there's a hell of a lot of stress to let off.
To quote kipling, "Single men in barracks don't turn into plaster saints."
P.S... no intent to be anonymous -
Agree with everything you say except this:
A montage of elementary school teachers, priests, 8-year-olds, grannies, or ballerinas saying "fuck" is funny because it's unexpected.
Dunno about the ballerinas... but I've heard every other category drop the F-bomb.
P.S... no intent to be anonymous - I'm the guy who posted as "guest" above.
which is funny because most of those mids are...eh hem...six months underway without a port visit hot?
yeah, another case of the VADM giving the male mids too little credit and the female mids too much credit.
And the Navy will find her one. We are all replaceable, and a new CO the day before deployment wouldn't be the first time.
One of the funniest things I've seen in a while dosed with some occasional poor taste and stoopid stuffed animal tricks (OK, like the animal tricks), but hey, can't bee 100% funny and 100% safe 100% of the time. Wrists were lightly slapped a few years ago, videos told to be stopped - dealt with. Time to move on and let this guy get back to work. More important things on the plate to worry about.
Parker & Stone couple probably pull this off at the WH Corresponsents dinner though.
At some point during one's career in any organization, he/she will find themselves in conflict with the values of the organization. There are three choices:
1. Change the organization
2. Accept the values of the organization
3. Leave the organization
The days of Top Gun and this type of sophmoric humor are over. We shouldn't have to tolerate these types of antics, as leaders or followers. For those who say, "Back when I was in the Navy," or, "Back in the day" need to realize, we, as a Navy and a country, have moved on. I don't want a Navy of yesterday, I want one of tomorrow. Like it or not, we are role models for the country, and as much as people want to play the Charles Barkley, the country looks to military.
I heard BOCOD passed over the 1MC once...one week out, right? Yeah, and unfortunately 2 minutes later a "Belay My Last" with screaming in the background. Too bad.
Moral of the story...
LEAVE THIS JOB TO THE CHIEFS!!!!!!!!!
Hey Therapist, you need to come hang out in my firehouse. Or hang out in my girlfriend's crime lab. Seriously. In the civilian world this video would never be made because barring nuclear war, you would never expect to be locked up in your office building for 6 months.
Do you think that there are no follies going on at Camp Victory, Iraq? How about Bagram AFB in Afghanistan? Holy cow! There are follies out the yin yang. And I"m talking serious stuff, not a silly video.
Chaplains, PAOs, Diversity Officers, JAGs...four most worthless officers in the Navy, probably the ones with the biggest axe to grind on this video.
Fine, but what about your sisters?
No no no. This is only SOME of what they're worried about. Diversity, welcoming the GHEY lifestyle, and which uniform to redesign this quarter are all way ahead of this.
Warfighting? Like, nowhere, man.
I'd leave the chaplains off that list, Gator. Some have won the MOH... or darn deserved to. Everyone else... I agree.
<span>"Carrier CO, Navy captain, fighter guy, TOPGUN grad, graduate of the Power School, veteran commanding officer:"</span>
Better judgement is expected from a guy with all that experience behind him.
Values of the organization? Which one? DACOWITS? ACLU? Keith Olbermann? (Or Mike Mullen, same thing)
The dainty little souls so grievously offended by this need to be sent to Helmand and walk foot patrols for the next year, regardless of rank or position. Perhaps then, they will get an object lesson about a hostile work environment, and what is truly obscene and disturbing.
They won't, of course, because they are chicken-shit, but they should. And if it is you, guest, you should, too.
The defenses seem to be in two broad categories: 1.) it's funny, and 2.) it's old Navy and we're way too sensitive now.
First, whether it's funny or not is irrelevant. The guy's nuts aren't on the chopping block based on whether it's funny. No one is sitting around a long green table right now arguing the comedic merits of the video.
Second, it's not old Navy. I would challenge anyone to ask an ACTUAL old salt whether they think the XO's role on the ship is to be lead cheerleader / court jester. The old man should be feared and respected, not laughed at. What this comes down to is the viewpoint that leadership is best exercised through image management and self-promotion, i.e. "People will do what I say because they really like me and think I'm a great guy." This is Aviator 101.. the need to be the coolest guy in the room. The video IS (mostly) funny, but this stuff is the purview of JO delinquents, not the old man. It's denigrating to the position and sends a mixed message to the troops, no matter how much they like it. Troops take an oath to obey you, not to love you. Work harder for their respect instead of their love.
Ships at sea are certainly not democracies, nor should they be. But in every sense, they're a community, united in purpose and mission. This kind of thing is great for injecting energy into the base, but it's not worth the divisions it causes within subcommunities. The use of "fag" wasn't even an attempt at comedy, just a hateful way of reinforcing one's own cool factor. Showing guys jacking off and spooging on their shoes only sends the message to women sailors that they're not welcome as women, only as women who act like men. You don't have to be gay or female to think that either of these things was in poor taste. The old man leads the whole ship - not just the adult equivalent of the cool kids table in the cafeteria. If a video starts with implicit or explicit message that not all are welcome to hear what the XO says, that's a bigger red flag than the message that the CO and Admiral are exempt from accountability.
Regardless, the worst thing to do would be to pull a CO prior to a combat deployment and reward an insecure weenie with a hateful, vindictive agenda against the XO. Such things only provide empowerment to all sorts of disenfranchised, insecure shits who think that they hold trump cards over leaders they don't like. Unfortunately, this debate, as most are, will be dictated by the fringe elements and will be oversimplifed to "funny versus offensive," or "old school versus new order." Both are irrelevant. What we could all get out of it is an honest discussion about leadership at sea.
Indeed, leave off the chaplains.
Another aviator who is still stuck in the 80's.
So what is your point? I liked the 80's!
This is tame by the standards of Brownshoes in Action ( The kind real aviators like!). With the exception of seeing some guy get a colonoscopy-I found nothing to be offended about.
Still-makes me glad I did my service before cell phones had video cameras. What goes on cruise, stays on cruise!
So .... those who want to change the nature of TACAIR to something along the lines of Civitan should do 1, 2, or 3 - right?
Your advice only applies to those you dont' agree with, I guess.
I'd definitely leave chaplains on the list. Seriously, everyone else actually does SOMETHING. The chaplain just sits around and pretends to talk to an invisible man who lives in the sky and grants wishes. I mean, I can at least prove that the public, minorities, and criminals (the reasons for POA, DIVO, and JAG) exist. But one of these things is not like the others and has no place in the 21st century. I think we've outgrown the need to drag a shaman along with us to shake his magic stick and tell us that the Sky Daddy is on our side.
We've had this discussion before I think-re: Chaplains.
P.S. I wish I had heard the term SWOveralls before today! It would have come in handy a bunch of times I can think of. :) .
"<span> I think we've outgrown the need to drag a shaman along with us to shake his magic stick and tell us that the Sky Daddy is on our side."</span>
-------------------
Now you are just acting desperate. Do yourself a favor. Stop reading Dawkins and his ilk and if you really want to learn something, then read some of the atheists or skeptics of bygone eras like Shaw. Then maybe you can actually have a rational debate on a topic like this without resorting to schoolyard rhetoric.
Skippy, Where have you been? Us SWOs were using the term before I retired. ;)
I was where any good aviator should be, when not flying, in my rack! :)
Actually...a better way to make the point...
WHERE WAS HIS GOAT LOCKER?!?!?!?!
Yeah, I know, right? He can get his people around the globe and back safely. Get ordnance on target, qualify a bunch of Sailors in all of their jobs and do it amazingly well. I mean, how could he not worry about the feelings of gays in the media during one of the longest deployments the ship had ever scene? We expect guys dropping bombs, supporting and defending the Constitution to worry about everybody's panties and insure there are no twists! BTW, in viewing the Bill of Rights, I did not see one that said we all have the right to not have our feelings hurt or be offended.
<span>
<span><span> </span>I was disappointed at the abuse hurled at Guest. Lord Nelson was said to be somewhat of an aloof, prig. Hornblower, while fictional, was written by a writer who had knew that rectitude in a naval commander was an essential of leadership. That posters scoff at Jones’ quote says more about them than the Guest.</span>
<span>
</span>
<span><span> </span>The real money quote has been entirely overlooked, “This floating museum built by the same people who build ships in WWII.” Yes, it was. We could build ships; damm good ships.</span>
<span> </span>
<span> </span>
</span>
Her sisters played along w/ the joke and had a laugh. The women that truly belong in the culture aren't the minority that joined and thought that the other 90% of the culture should bend around their wants and desires. It ain't dating, it is killing people.
Its all fun and games until the evaluations are filled out. Suddenly that good buddy/gal who thought everything was so funny and great decides they are SHOCKED at the rampant sexual harassment and hostile environment they have had to put up with. (I don't write the rules, things would be very different if I did; my job is to tell people what the rules are).
People wonder why senior officers change and why they don't have a sense of humor. I understand warfighting isn't croquet, but CPT Honors might have thought a little ahead - that he didn't seem to have done reflects at least a little on his judgement.
"Get politically correct or get out" is not any kind of advice I care to hear from Admiral Mullen, let alone "guest". It's bullsh*t.
Because it has nothing to do with war fighting, martial skill, or military/soldierly virtue. All of which will be in desperately short supply when the next fight comes, if we continue to foster the climate of perpetual offense and umbrage. The persnickety little flowers that will increasingly be catered to will not survive the furnace of combat. Which is, after all, what the Navy is for, no?
http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2010/09/severn-sitrep.html
Please help me understand the mental gymnastics in so strongly defending this O-6, since so many on this board wanted to instantly expel these two mids (in the link), citing arguments of expected demeanor of Naval Officers, future leadership needs in Fleet, competition amongst peers at USNA and Fleet, etc. Almost 450 posts, many very harsh. One of the mids was separated; the other just finally finished her restriction.
I am trying to understand the apparent lack of consistency regarding expectations of Naval Officers, regardless of rank and experience. Seems like some of you expect less from an O-6 than from a Midshipman. Interesting. Do not use the "satire" argument either, as it was unacceptable in the previous case.
Using logic presented from the previous case with these 20 year old mids, and since so many clung so dearly to the principles of the what is expected of Naval Officers in that situation, I would have expected most to want this guy's career over and his head on a plate five years ago.
The common thread here is expectations of behavior by Naval Officers and social media/media expectations and potential pitfalls.
No, the PAO response was not a good one - at least wait until AFTER the investigation to announce the conduct was "clearly unacceptable."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/02/AR2011010201160.html?hpid=topnews
And that is probably the driving force for this. All handled by the Beltway Sailors.
Therapist, your reaction is a perfect example of the problem here. If we do an "all stop" every time a single person gets emotionally hurt, we'll never get anything done.
You asked that with a straight face, Phil? You see no material difference in two girls who accepted an education on the public dime defaming the institution that hired them while they were still mere underclassmen and a man who has made his bones for decades under deadly or merely dangerous circumstances. One has earned the right to make a few jokes, though bad and in poor taste... in a climate more stressful than USNA.
There's stupidity all over this. The videos were stupid as was the Big XO's belief that nobody would be offended and that little would happen if they were. The Navy's limited humor in this sort of thing has been around for nearly 20 years now. Anyone who doubts this should reflect on the case of ADM Bob "At my age I'd rather have a talking frog" Kelly.
That said, the real stupidity is in the level of "crisis" surrounding this case. As a commentator said elsewhere, "Is this what passes for a scandal in the Navy these days?" Good grief...these are off-color videos not a collision between the "Big E" and one of her escorts. This is a case that could be disposed of quickly---either fire the guy or (my choice) bring him in, chew his butt, and send him back to work (keeping in mind the issue of his judgement for when the next Flag Selection Board convenes). Unfortunately, I predict this will drag on for awhile distracting ENTERPRISE and her leadership from the important task of preparing the ship for deployment, a distraction that could cost someone their life.
I also predict that when CAPT Honor's case is disposed of we'll transition to the "what did they know and when did they know it" regarding the Strike Group's senior leadership. But then, the Navy can deal with this type of problem. The issues of readiness, training, and ships with limited capabilities for the tasks assigned on the other hand...
There are some of us, Phil, who condemned the leadership environment at USNA and never called for dsimissal of those two Middies for that incident alone. If they stayed, it was a hard lesson and with luck, one they can recover from. I stand by that condemnation of the leadership environment.
But to C-dore's point, above. THIS is a Navy scandal? With shipbuilding and maintenance in absolute shambles, run into the ground by people who likely knew better but had political/promotion motives? We have a Littoral Combat Ship unable to engage in combat in the littorals, at half a billion a copy, nurtured by the man who is now CJCS and the currenc CNO, and you get your panties in a bundle about an off color video made FIVE YEARS AGO?
Either you have cataracts a foot thick, or you are among the throng who will be pandering to the special interests, including the new ones, that will be de fact on charge of our Armed Forces.
Fair.
PAO's, the main ingredient in the self-licking ice cream cone.
Stu, You should have been on the good ship CARL VINSON the night that we weren't flying and the CO had a chance to watch a movie. Unfortunately it was "Boogie Nights". About 30 minutes into the flick the screen went blank (that was when he verbally had the PAO by the throat) and about 15 minutes later something like "The Bridges at Toko-Ri" came on. It was all the talk of the Flag Mess the next morning.
One thing about which no one has commented -- Honors keeps saying that neither the CO nor the Admiral know anything about his antics, If this is so, what kind of blindness do they suffer from?
pr, I took his quote re: the CO and Group Cdr as being "tongue in cheek" (can we still say that?). If the Big XO is making videos that are being shown on CCTV it's likely that <span>everyone aboard</span> has at least heard about them (unless, of course, they don't want to know).
Indeed, it's part of the schtick.
This reminds me of ADM Kelso being interviewed by Sam Donaldson following Tailhook. Donaldson asked Kelso if he was aware that some of the aviators were watching pornographic movies during the convention. Kelso gave and incredulous look and replied, "no" as if he were shocked.
Sleep til you're hungry, eat til you're tired, eh Skippy?
An interesting question I haven't seen asked yet -- who went to mast with Captain Honors in the day or three before this story broke?
MOTIVE!
It is garbage like this that made me retire. An old O-6 trying to be hip and entertain his much younger crew--probably entertained 98% of them, but that 2% has the veto on fun and games. CAPT Honors should be left alone. He took some initiative in trying to raise morale (and apparently did) and now he is judged by the light of the most left-wing liberals to ever crawl the earth. These people are trying to wreck the world. There is nothing sacred in this world anymore--especially someone's slightly corny and off color sense of humor. Give a guy a break--his heart was in the right place.
Sactly
One good thing for the good Captain, his position is unique.. they dont fleet up the XO and make him the CO not for nothing.. Big E is unique, her power plant is unique and now apparently her Skipper is unique!
Good question....
I just puked in my mouth.
Focsle follies are done... no Skipper will risk a video tape making it's way out 3-4 years later.....
the reaction and the abandonment of this Skipper by the Navy is simply a sign of the Navy we have become.....
That would be 'skin-o-max' - back in the day. Just sayin'........ 8-)
Oh to be young again.........just sayin'................ >:o
...the Ent PAO was sacked recently for incompetence. Who would know the best way to get back at someone through the media and have access to a drive that had such files? This is the same strike group still dealing with Romo's Bitch formerly from VFA-136 who did a similar thing to his skipper when he tried to sack him. Just sayin...
Is there a whole crew of CVN sailors who now think that Bill Holden was in Boogie Nights?
I stand with CAPT Honors...
The recently fired ENT PAO? Fired for incomptence.
He should have known better but a firing offense? No way! The roaches headed for the cracks when the lights came on for this poor guy. It was over 4 years ago, funny how that gets lost in the mix!
MTH, Exactly right. While you may be able to replace a DDG or CG CO on the eve of deployment (that's one reason why they like to have a post-major command SWO as a CVSG COS) it's not so easy with a CVN CO in general (and the Big E in particular). Moreover now's not the time to mess with the chemistry (or work-arounds due to lack of it) that's been established between the CO, CVSG Cdr, CAG, etc. during work-ups unless the offense is serious.
MSNBC reports (I am told, I don't watch it) that he is to be relieved "temporarily" tomorrow. They expect the ship will deploy without him.
PAO and Diversity Officers get my vote to go! Cut em' and get some mid grade technical ratings back out in the fleet to maintain these million dollar systems!
That line about foxholes and athiests comes to mind.
you can admit it, you love Keith and his ilk ;) Kidding aside I saw the same thing on their website, wonder who will pick the short straw on the waterfront to take that billet?
I hadn't seen that. Did that PAO go to mast?
I'm guessing they were drinking near beer, eating popcorn and laughing their butts off!
Relief tomorrow
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40889027/ns/us_news-life/from/toolbar
C-dore,
Are you trying to tell me that combat efficiency is more important than persecuting a lapse in judgment to placate Political Correctness crowd?
I THINK NOT!
URR, Only in the Deck Department. I suspect many were disappointed that Bill and Grace Kelly didn't pick up where Mark Wahlberg and Julianne Moore left off. ;)
I'd have watched that!
URR, Sorry. I'm just an old retired dinosaur.
Clearly we need a nice bloody one year war at sea, ending in ignominious defeat, so all the prom queens, drama queens, and flaming queens who are oh so precious and sensitive can see real combat, real damage control and real stress, loneliness and terror.
After they all break and flee (to where at sea, my preciouses, hmmm) and wind up gibbering and shaking in their own waste, rocking and weeping that the world is cruel and uncaring, in the lifeboats they launched without orders, somebody can take a video and put it on u-tube. The real sailors (of whatever sexual preference or other extraneous characteristic, when the ship's on fire, the coin of the realm is cool and courage) will save the ship and the worthless ones. Afterwards, heroes will be in no mood to suffer fools of any rank or party. Nothing like a humiliating and undecisive defeat to reinstitute discipline where it matters and flush away CS where is doesn't. PAO's most specifically included.
Ernie King had it right. The first press conference is inform the public the nation is at war. The second is to announce the final defeat of the enemy.
But hey, I could be wrong. Divas and mean girls could be the wave of the future.
Ad interim, step carefully and keep your opinions to yourself. Wait.
^what he said (c-dore 14)
In spades.
I see there are some people here that seem to compare how these videos are no worst then what one has seen on youtube all over place and there are those that have said in the past there were worst films on older deployments. I give a big ol'Meh to the lot of you all. For those of you with your nose in a crook cause you don't understand the nature of the enviroment that a servicemember lives in when in a deployment. All you need do is look for the Fighter Fling videos at places like Youtube and understand that even up to 2004 the F-14 bubbas were making videos like that. Then you have some of our European Brethern who do some dumb stuff too all in attempts to relieve stress after a deployment and create something memoriable for that deployment.
This isn't like some college level frat boy skit. This isn't something that was designed to bring hate and discontent to the crew, by forcing mando-fun. Rather this seems to me a poor choice by someone in a leadership position and maybe a poor choice that doesn't deserve a skewering on someone's lance. This also stinks of the "GOTCHA MOFO!" game aka "PAYBACK IS A BIATCH!", where someone who was punished is making this man pay for the crime of being on someone's list.
Those of you hating this man, will only scream for the same type A personality when war breaks out and we are asking for the guts/leadership to turn the tides in our favor
<span>Lt. Steve Maryk</span>: Okay, Barney, take it easy.
<span>Lt. Barney Greenwald</span>: You know something... When I was studying law, and Mr. Keefer here was writing his stories, and you, Willie, were tearing up the playing fields of dear old Princeton, who was standing guard over this fat, dumb, happy country of ours, eh? Not us. Oh, no, we knew you couldn't make any money in the service. So who did the dirty work for us? Queeg did! And a lot of other guys. Tough, sharp guys who didn't crack up like Queeg.
<span>Ensign Willie Keith</span>: But no matter what, Captain Queeg endangered the ship and the lives of the men.
<span>Lt. Barney Greenwald</span>: He didn't endanger anybody's life, you did, *all* of you! You're a fine bunch of officers.
<span>Lt. JG H. Paynter Jr.</span>: You said yourself he cracked.
<span>Lt. Barney Greenwald</span>: I'm glad you brought that up, Mr. Paynter, because that's a very pretty point. You know, I left out one detail in the court martial. It wouldn't have helped our case any.
<span>Lt. Barney Greenwald</span>: Tell me, Steve, after the Yellowstain business, Queeg came to you guys for help and you turned him down, didn't you?
<span>Lt. Steve Maryk</span>: [hesitant] Yes, we did.
<span>Lt. Barney Greenwald</span>: [to Paynter] You didn't approve of his conduct as an officer. He wasn't worthy of your loyalty. So you turned on him. You ragged him. You made up songs about him. If you'd given Queeg the loyalty he needed, do you suppose the whole issue would have come up in the typhoon?
OH and if you haters really feel bad about these videos. Here was an offically produced video that was in use from the 1970's until the mid 1980's, The Man From LOX!
I wonder if wiping someone's intestinal contents or grey matter off one's face on the bridge wing will offend these stout-hearted warriors. Or looking for the boot with the foot in it so it can get to the doc along with the Marine.
"<span>I will remember your crime lab when I am on a 16-24hr hostage barricade with my TAC Team."</span>
You gotta be kidding. Spend some time (2-6 months) in an 80-man berthing compartment not much larger than your living room and dining room combined, or walking daily foot patrols in some Pashtun village.
Ask Patsy Schroeder and Barney Frank!
I was on VINSON on the deployment after that for my dissassociated. Heard about that story. :)
That's better. Keep it up and you will be in the cell, er, classroom next to MTH and myself at the re-education camp!
Sweet. Now the Enterprise will deploy to a combat zone and drop bombs to kill terrorists without her skipper. Thank you big Navy - not only do you provide spineless leadership but you take away the real leaders in the ranks. Bring on the downfall...
Phib, There is something wrong here that needs to be answered.
1) The media reports consistently mischaracterized the videos. For example, NPR this evening described the scene of three officers, one being Honor, with one calling another "fag." That in no way describes what was on the video (all three were Honor). Terms like simulated sex acts and anti-gay slurs are inflammatory and inaccurate to describe the video. Why are all the media reports inaccurate?
2) This story has way longer legs than it should have. The first PAO response should have killed it, but the first reports came out Sunday. Hampton Roads reported it, FOX picked it up, then NPR reported it this morning AND this evening. Why was this more than a Norfolk story?
Something stinks here. Bad.
The most rational statemnet yet on this subject
Witch hunt mau-mau'n.
sorry, I've met some real worthless "Battle Chaps" who thought they were tough stuff but really accomplished nothing. the most Christian men I know in the military can't stand chaplains. I recognize the accomplishments of some outstanding chaplains who won the medal of honor administering last rites to dying Marines in every conflict only to die themselves; however, you could make that argument about every group I mentioned.
Eight hours a night-everything else is gravy. If you sleep for half the cruise the cruise is only three months long. Unless you were on Coral Sea in 1987 and 1988 then you got so much liberty you needed your at sea rack time to recover.
Guest, bugger off. I have a problem with chaplains, not God.
E will cruise with a CO. I guarantee you-they have someone already identified and they will simply shuffle the rotation of CVN slated skippers.
Who will now be looking over their shoulders all the time. Wait till you see what happens with the up anc coming crop of Nuke XO's.
One thing I don't know is how he found the time. Every Big XO I ever knew was busier than all get out.
I'm a big fan of the 'skydaddy'. I think I'll use that in the future.
Once, my first time snorkling in the Bahama's, I stuck my mask in the water and couldn't believe what I was seeing. And I also said there's no way a master designer didn't do this (that's a negative way of saying - there was intention in the design of the coral, the fish, etc., that no chance 'big bang' could have designed what I was looking at. I'm absolutely convinced that 'sky daddy' exists because of that. My kids are proof of it. The country that I have flown over is proof of an intentional design. The documents that have been produced by some of the finest minds 200+ years ago are proof that 'sky daddy' exists. Sorry you don't think so - wish you did.
That bahama's trip was also the first time I stepped on a US Navy warship and met up with some partying US Navy sailors later that night. The ship was a CGN #27 (just pulled out the picture), likely in 1989 or 1990.
Darius,
Quoting Kipling is a great start on the porch! Well done! ;)
Okay - should we worry about an aviator that describes himself as 'lobotomized'?!....:: 8-) :-P :) =-O :-D >:o 8-)
just sayin'................tounge in cheek! (can I still say that?)
S A P: you just triggered a great memory! What about the Norwegian, or Dutch, or Swedish female sailors that flashed the (top) goods on some PASSEX (no pun intended) about 3-5 years ago. Wasn't it posted here? All I remember it was a scandahoovian ship with some pretty hot female sailors. That clearly tops what happened here. 8-)
Oh to be young again............and again.........and again..............instead of just one............again.
What maybe worst is we may see more of the Holly Graf's will we see cause an O-5+ is afraid of thier wardroom? How many wardrooms will we hear later bitch, moan, groan, etc about thier evil Devil in the CO/XO chair simply cause that man isn't approachable and doesn't want to be human to the crew? How many commands will now be high stress and horrible places cause of fear that this situtation has created? You don't think it didn't happen post Kennedy debacle then you haven't been paying attention to the wharf front when that incident occurred.
This story once again follows the upper-level Navy management philosophy of letting senior officers be proven guilty in the court of public opinion. The PAO dept should've just said it was under investigation and left it at that until the investigation was complete and judgement passed.
URR, what is the problem? He mentioned a firestation and a crimelab. I gave him my comprable job.
I am not saying it compares with combat or living in a berthing area. However don't dismiss seeing a 3yos head crushed by an SUV driven by the mother or the other shit I dealt with on a regular basis.
Anyone know what the PAO was sent to mast for?
My thoughts exactly.
"now <span>he is judged by the light of the most left-wing liberals to ever crawl the earth."
</span>
And you know what perpetuates the influence of the news media? The Navy leadership cowtowing to alleged widespread outcry by temporarily relieving the CO instead of doing an investigation and making a statement when it is finished. Yes, he probably used poor judgement and may have offended some people. But the leadership needs to decide what's more important, having an effective CO or catering to a very small minority of people who can't take an effing joke.
<p><span><span><span>Guest, do you really want front line military of any service to be indecisive metrosexuals who will cheat death in their own minds to avoid hurting someone’s feelings? What BS! Real warriors run to the fight hacking and slashing all the way. They fly jets off of carriers then crash land them back aboard. While they are gone they fu*k up the enemy, repeatedly. They charge machine guns to support their brothers. They stick bayonets into the bad guys and don’t apologize for it. They dive in submarines knowing that if they don’t get it right they will not be coming back up. Etc, etc!!! Guys like that usually have an “offbeat” way of looking at things during the calm times. Its part of the DNA.I guess you can look at it as frat house humor except that I doubt any of your frat buddies died on the job.</span></span></span>
</p><p><span><span> </span></span>
</p><p><span><span><span>Unfortunately today we have the REMF’s and clueless girly guests like yourself who are all too ready to point fingers at men whom they are not fit either by temperament or ability to walk with. </span></span></span>
</p><p><span><span> </span></span>
</p><p><span><span><span>BTW, this happened four years ago. Since then the guy has done his deep draft command and now come back to the Enterprise. Shame on those 0-7’s and above who don’t give the finger to anyone who is complaining now.</span></span></span></p>
Then I would suggest there was a mutual leadership fail here.
And the Goat Locker -The CMC should have said- "Hey XO, perhaps there is a better way to get this word out"...And he should have used them in the first place.
(full disclosure, I was raised under the roof of a 13XX gent who had 3 XO and 4 CO tours...while he and his peers would have severe issues surviving in todays PC USN, I would opine they would never would have put themselves in that kind of publicly awkward position)
I mean. really. What E-2 wants to see the XO talking about choking the chicken?
Thats kinda like watching your parents' sex tape.
Ewww.
I agree with Bryan Mcgrath over at InfoDis...
Putting aside the offense that everyday Americans are taking at what is portrayed in these videos, the likelihood that crewmembers in ENTERPRISE would be made uncomfortable by the videos seems self-evident. That they registered their complaints with Captain Honors and he did nothing to censor his behavior raises questions about his judgment and fitness for duty at more senior levels, let alone that one he was at.
Lesson Learned... I hope?
Forgot to add though...
This public drawing and quartering of the man -especially on the eve of the deployment of "DO MORE WITH LESS" on steriods- does no one any good.
That should have never happened.
My thoughts:
1. Shitty production value.
2. Somne funny bits.
3. Some not so funny.
All in all the video gets a solid "meh".
Now what's more intereting is the UCI in the PAO statement. Clearly unnacceptable, you say? Reeeeeeeeally? I thought hte matter was still under investigation. Could that be the representative of the command making a statement as to disposition prior to the completion of the investigation?
Miss Ladybug, the point is that most sailors are under-25 males; i.e. young, horny, coarse, and obnoxious. If the "ladies" want to join the (warrior) fun, they need to accept the (warrior) mind-set. As for Wayans Brothers movies, the record shows that their work is in general quite popular; so I feel compelled to ask how something that popular within a target group (men -or even men & women- in their 20s) can be simultaneously so offensive to aforementioned young warriors? Unless, of course, they really aren't warriors at all, but government employees looking for another hand-out...
Casey,
Well according to the MSM and those in the anti-war, mental health communites want us all to believe that those of us warriors have brain damage for joining the military and then get more brain damage for having PTSD (cause as CDR S noted this past summer, everyone in the military has PTSD) or at least that is the meme.
Which makes me think that would be the defense at the Court Martial if I was Captain Honors.
"Sir, cause I have PTSD, I didn't think there was anything wrong with these videos."
"Sir , you can't convict me cause I have PTSD and that may have caused me to make poor decisions. If you do convict me then you just so you know I have Mike Wallace, the View, and Keith Olberman on speed dial ready to tell them how you don't care about my mental health and punishing me for my mental health issues which you aren't treating properly and kicking me out will only prove my point."
That might get them by the short and curlies to potentially save his career.
And here is spec that the SJA may have been in some of these. Oh dear.
http://www.caaflog.com/2011/01/03/enterprise-co-to-be-temporarily-relieved-during-training-video-investigation/
Aww, come on, I bet we could send Holly Graf in to the rescue and everything would be just fine. I mean, she had the full backing and support of the Washington Navy Yard until her baggage made it to the media. Tit for Tat, or is it Tat for Tit in this case?
CAPT Honors, for what it is worth, I'd serve with you and probably not even have cried one tear from a joke or sarcastic remark.
Where was it put out that he was fired? If so, that is total motive and it needs to be put out there in the media. Name names.
Sir,
Of course this is serious. Somebody got their wittwe feewings hurt. *sniffle*
That's ok, I vote for a classroom insurection. I am completely tired of this silliness. We need to push this crap back up the intestines.
The PAO should have gone with the initial release saying nobody got hurt, no harm was intended, he stopped making the movies after he was talked to about them. He has since gone on to take care of his crew, support and defend the Constitution and will continue to do so on the venerable USS Enterprise. That is all.
DB, my love, I missed this in the first read:
"<span>I mean... they can't help it. They didn't choose to be this way. They were BORN this way. (cue in tiny violins.) Ordering them to rein in the most fundamental aspects of their identity is an affront to them. They should be allowed to be open about who they are. They shouldn't have to stifle their jokes whispered in locked wardrooms and hide their flyboy identities behind a mask of propriety. That is forcing them to live a lie. That is not in keeping with Navy Values."</span>
Almost choked on the morning coffee. Touche! "We're here! We're hetero and sophomoric, and we land on pitching decks in the dark! Get used to it!"
Not dismissing anything. But combat, combat, combat. THAT is the test. Always and ever.
The trust that is built or not built by shared hardship and sacrifice in training for it, the conditions of waiting for it with unspoken fear, the savagery and obscenity of the things one sees and smells and does there. And the loss afterwards of those we loved in a way that the special interest/PC crowds not only refuse to recognize but despise because they can't.
Was told over at USNI (by a career Navy officer!) that the ultimate test of unit cohesion was an IG investigation. As opposed to combat. Similar comments have been made here on occasion. That the guys at the cutting edge aren't really all that important, no more so than support units and sometimes even families. That kind of stupidity and ignorance cannot be explained.
The men on the cutting edge, locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy. THEY are the ones who count most. Always have, always will. It includes (should, anyway) warship crews, air crews, combat arms MOS types. They may be in the thick of it suddenly and without warning. When it does, that mindset better be present, because it is way too late to hone it. And as is pointed out above, people willing to wade into the shooting look at things a lot differently than do the rest.
Surely as water will wet us, surely as fire will burn...
I read lots of thoughts and opinions on this: everyone has one blah blah blah. But the question has to be asked... was it appropriate for the XO of a ship to make a video like this? More applicable, was it appropriate for a leader in the military to make a video? Set aside the "good old boy" brown shoe crap and the "this is what we use to do back in the...". I can top all of those stories after spending 10 years in engineering on over 10 ships. The language and comments arew FAR worse than this video. And yes, officers do participate in those conversations every day too. And yes, the women were just as bad as the men (didn't have open gays so I don't know that they would have said). But I will guarantee that after 20 years, 20+ ships, I did not see a commanding officer participate in those conversations. They were the command, the image, the leader of the ship, etc. That grop included many aviators, SWOs, etc. So the question remains, what did this XO think when he thought this was appropriate?
My opinion, he was stupid... period. The video was uncalled for and tasteless. Most important, while he may have "earned" respect from those who thought it was "funny", I guarentee there were a significant number of the crew that thought it was offensive, not just women and "gays". A leader has to set the standard for all he leads (no - not a John Paul Jones quote) and this is nothing short of picking on someone on the playground to be "cool" for a few.
Guess I can't be helped then...I did not think either was a Navy scandal, but many pushed very hard for the mids to go.
Hating? No. Roundly criticized and disciplined in private (and possibly kept in mind when he screens for flag next)? Absolutely. As I said below, making those videos demonstrated a staggering lack of judgment that I would expect better out of someone that is second in line (now in command) of 5,000 people and a U.S. Navy supercarrier. Regardless of how he feels about it, he's no longer a JO, he's no longer responsible for only himself. He is the public face of the rest of the chain to those 5,000 people, and he's running around making choking the chicken jokes?
You don't have to completely lose your sense of humor when you make O-6, but you sure as shit don't get to act like an 18 year old E-3 in front of your entire command.
This is turning into a binary "CAPTAIN HONORS IS A HORRIBLE MISOGYNISTIC HOMOPHOBIC PIECE OF TRASH AND MUST BE TARRED AND FEATHERED AND RIDDEN OUT OF TOWN ON A RAIL" vs "GET OVER YOURSELF YOU DAMN HIPPIE FAGGOTS, LEARN TO TAKE A JOKE" and that troubles me, because I don't see how it is good for a command to have their leadership denigrating members of the command in front of the entire command (even if it was ostensibly a joke) or to have that leadership making sophmoric jokes about masturbation. It's possible to recognize that the military still needs to have some un-PC elements while criticizing Capt Honors for his lack of judgment.
"<span> It's possible to recognize that the military still needs to have some un-PC elements while criticizing Capt Honors for his lack of judgment."</span>
If only....
Don't tell anyone, Mike, but I agree wholeheartedly. Goofy video, would have been really funny with a JO playing the part of the Exec. Not my style, and wouldn't have done it. But a relief offense? We have senior officers showing all the moral courage of those who persecuted offenders and non-offenders alike after Tailhook, in the finest traditions of political sycophancy in the US Navy.
A four year old video of questionable judgment is not a Navy-wide problem. The reaction of the Flag Officers is a much more serious one. And will continue to be detrimental to good order and discipline, and will turn wardrooms into humorless and tense gatherings of mutually suspicious officers. Because of pandering to Diversity, DACOWITS, Gay activists, liberal politicians and special interests who search 24 hours a day for reasons to denigrate and demean our Military.
Alles klar, herr kommisar?
Very SWO-like
I wish I could say I'm surprised the CAPT was "temporarily" relieved, but I'm not. Nor will I be surprised when it becomes permanent. So a proven capable CO will be removed just as his ship is ready to deploy. But hey, at least no one will be offended. Because as we all know, that's more important than minor things like fighting a war.
You know, the left sure likes to make a big deal out of the right "sending men and women into harm's way while they're safely removed from it" but they seem to have no problem at all with controlling and confining the conduct and environment the men and women operate under while in harm's way. Go figure...
o'douls... hmmmmm
I've asked myself the same thing...why is this a NATIONAL story?
Who dug this stuff up? The timing is very interesting.
In EVERY story, the anti-gay angle is stressed.
The math on this is pretty easy.
SAP,
Although I don't like what's being done to Capt Honors, I've served with plenty of COs that were "good guys" that didn't make weekly videos to prove it.
Does anyone know the last time someone was "temporarily relieved" who later returned to command that same unit?
Inappropriate behavior is exactly that. In the mid-80s one of my fellow JOs was fired because he (with full wardroom support including the females) hired a stripper for an AOM prior to a change of command. The stripper arrived dressed as a PO3, stripped down to a bikini and left. Some of the junior female enlisted were upset not only by the act but also because she was dressed as a petty officer.
CAPT Honors should have thought about the potential risks involved in his moral(e) videos. I am not a prude and I would have laughed and enjoyed the videos with the rest of the boys. It still doesn't make it right.
There's right, there's not quite right, there's kinda wrong and there's wrong. Then there is absolutely wrong.
Why does an offense that falls between not quite right and kinda wrong get the same punishment as absolutely wrong? Why is he being shuffled off like some XO who was caught having an affair with a chief?
Dave, did we fire John Paul Jones CO when his boat made that video remake of "I'm on a Boat?" Did we fire all the leaders for all the stupid videos that are coming out of Iraq? Did we fire the naval academy supe for all those stupid Naval Academy videos, including the ones that play during football games? Sometimes morale is morale, and you let it go.
This is nothing more than the Navy trying to be tough because he said "Fag" and "Gay." If he didn't say those two words, this would be a non issue. But, to recall, it was still illegal to be a "F*g and Gay" in 2006-07...
C-dore,
I suspect a butt-chewing occurred a few years ago. That's why we don't have any videos newer than ~ 4 years. However, the political landscape has changed. To those pushing for further change, this is the perfect opportunity to drag him back out for a proper hangin'. We can have jerk-off references on prime time TV, but we CAN'T have any anti-gay "slurs" go unpunished.
I don't read that particular blog anymore. It's basically a sewing circle for an already venemous and gossip filled community.
Oooooooh! LOOK! It's a JAG in the video! Shaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame!
Hey AR, if aviators aren't allowed to joke and have fun JAGs aren't either. You guys may have had your own show but they had to make him an F14 guy first for it to be REALLY cool. :)
Temporarily Relieved? is like that Temporarily Pregnant?
Some more thoughts... a friend of mine was escorting the CNO at the time aboard the Enterprise one night in the 2006-2007 cruise and he enjoyed one of the XO's movie nights, movie and intro. He sat next to her in the wardroom throughout the entire production. He laughed at the skits and did not reprimand the XO. Any guesses who the CNO was in the 2006-2007 timeframe?
If you want to go after the filmmaker, let's also take a look at the ones above him and see where they are today.
Some more thoughts... a friend of mine was escorting the CNO at the time aboard the Enterprise one night in the 2006-2007 cruise and he enjoyed one of the XO's movie nights, movie and intro. He sat next to her in the wardroom throughout the entire production. He laughed at the skits and did not reprimand the XO. Any guesses who the CNO was in the 2006-2007 timeframe?
If you want to go after the filmmaker, let's also take a look at the ones above him and see where they are today.
Stuck in the 80's... no I dont see a "Members Only" jacket in any skits?
Maybe those "Frank Kelso Moments" come with the CNO's job.
GBS,
I don't discount that thought. I have served under some great CO's that didn't have to make up videos either. I just wonder how some one that is looking to add some memories for the crew about their leadership abilities. On the other hand I have also served under someone who cause of an issue tween the wardroom, the FCPOA, and the CPO Mess, was like a cold fish towards both groups and actually made it harder for any of those groups to lead or learn leadership cause of the hostile work enviroment there.
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