... no further comment required.
A Navy tradition caught up with the repeal of the U.S. military's "don't ask, don't tell" rule on Wednesday when two women sailors became the first to share the coveted "first kiss" on the dock after one of them returned from 80 days at sea.I think Navy Relief missed an opportunity here ... but maybe I should stick to my "no further comment" above.
Petty Officer 2nd Class Marissa Gaeta of Placerville, Calif., descended from the USS Oak Hill amphibious landing ship and shared a quick kiss with her partner, Petty Officer 3rd Class Citlalic Snell of Los Angeles. The crowd screamed and waved flags around them.
Both women, ages 22 and 23 respectively, are fire controlmen in the Navy. They met at training school and have been dating for two years.
Navy officials said it was the first time on record that a same-sex couple was chosen to kiss first upon a ship's return. Sailors and their loved ones bought $1 raffle tickets for the opportunity. Gaeta said she bought $50 of tickets. The Navy said the money would be used to host a Christmas party for the children of sailors.
I just hope they didn't chip a tooth. OK, I need to stop right now.
UPDATE: OK, not the video a lot of you want to see - but let this put the Sailors in a bit more depth.
344 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 344 of 344Already has. Missy Mullen and his "vote with your feet" comment.
Missy Mullen should have voted with his feet on a patrol in Helmand Province, and after the ambush, while he lay screaming and bleeding to death, he might have been informed that the Corpsman who was brave and talented enough to save his life left the service because he was forced to accept something he thought morally wrong.
Stu,
Count on it. It is the next stated goal.
I would ask what value you put on a person who values him/herself and personal desires above the good of the group, in a profession where unit cohesion and integrity is the difference between mission success and failure, life and death?
BTW, I took Mullen's advice. I'm voting with my feet. Retirement in 8 months.
Lol...you're right there...the Priests have been a bit quiet on sexual morality lately..prob on advice of the diocesan legal counsel...
Battle axe. Absolute minimum.
Or he could simply thank the Corpsman (who may have been gay...) who saved his life and limb...
Jay: Chaplains minister to sinners, which includes us all. The opportunity is absolutely equal, and the need is absolutely bottomless.
DuPont Circle? SF? How very 1970s. Apparently, "deal with it" is only ok when it runs one way. Welcome to 2012...
Because the COLE only had males on her damage control locker teams...geez, what fleet are you serving in?
Nope, because that Corpsman isn't there. He wasn't worthy to remain in the service because he didn't conform to Missy Mullen's personal values.
But we can only hope for such poetic justice. In reality it will be someone other than Mullen bleeding to death. Not that he cares. He got what he wanted. Approval of his political overlords, like a cocker spaniel.
Kristen: I sincerely regret I was not here during the exchange prompting your many defenders. Never doubt that you should number me among them.
Jay: Any time you wish exchange bon mots with me, I am available. Do be sure you are at the top of your form, sonny.
Male homosexuals have been present, if undetected, in small numbers, yes. Lesbians, mmm, factually, not really.
It may work out peachy keen. Don't know.
I do know this. Ships fight as a crew. What the effect of the whole diversity, dissent is defined as grounds for dismissal, special treatment, influence of the "sisterhood" lesbian ring in DC upon selection of certain women, zampolits in fact if not in name will have on the zeal and obedience of John Gob during hard peacetime training and deployment schedules necessary to maintain a preeminent Navy, much less war at sea, may be not be what their enthusiasts believe - or it may be all peachy keen.
We. Shall. See.
Sooner than many think.
As for FMF Corpsmen and NARMY sailors, they have the CAR's and they rate 'em. Irrelevent to the discussion.
Warrent Diver, that's a debate about physical fitnesses standards, and the fact that female standards are lower (stupidly, imho).
I don't see where who's picture they have sitting on their desk comes into play.
If we're going into the debate about physical fitnesses standards being uniform, then yeah, I'm going to agree with you. The wiring in their head otherwise should matter not.
Ugh, that was me on my wife's stupid Mac.
If a person isn't willing to fight as a crew with the otherwise totally qualified lesbian standing next to them then we have a discipline problem, not a diversity problem.
The taxpayers have decided that they don't care if somebody doesn't like the lifestyle choices of somebody else. We expect you to shut up and color.
Too bad this happy occasion on return from Crack Pac became a "media event" (and the pair involved were key to making it so). In my opinion, best to keep your business to yourself.
Out of curiousity, a question to the folks who:
A) Are on URR's side of this issue, and
B) Put a uniform on (full time or reserve) and sign fitreps/evals...
If one of your subordinates came out as openly g*y, would you still evaluate them fairly? Or would you find a reason to more closely scrutinize their performance and perhaps downgrade them?
My feeling is that many who post here are professionals, and would try their best to be fair, but it seems the feeling posted here are so visceral that it would be hard to overcome them. Or maybe second-guess themselves , and wonder if their were unfairly downgrading someone because of biases. At least this is worth thinking about...
My opinion is that for a young Marine male JO to "come out" would be the one of the stupidest career moves he could make. I think irrespecitve of policy, there's a real hatred of g*ys (males, at least) in the USMC. Just my opinion...I could be wrong...but it's sad that there are still folks "in the closet" because of the negative vibe.
Easy fix...repeal DOMA. Oh boy will that open a can of worms!
(Although it might lead to wholesale BAH reform and no longer paying married folks more than single folks, which would be a good thing. A good thing buried under a can of worms.)
Cdr,
I fully understand that you don't consider the LGBT lifestyle with in the diversity friendship ciricle, however as others have pointed out there are members of the advocay groups within the LGBT are actively trying to make this fall within the perview of DEMOI. The issue as I see it isn't that it is happening, of which I don't care what happens to behind the close doors of a bedroom or barracks room. I just don't feel that we need to be dragged into it all by forcing acceptance. Through all of this debate the constant comparision between the LGBT community and the black community is brought up. The only comparison that I can see is how our juniors in our services will adapt and help the rest of the nation/world adapt as well; the same way that intergrated units in the south fought thier own private battles through out the 50-70's.. The issue is at what speed will this happen depends on how militant those advocay groups will make this. Just the same way that some of the more militiant advocay groups in the mid-70's did with the black community.
218 posts since I left the front porch yesterday. Stir......up........a........hornets........nest.............
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/12/navy-new-york-xo-fired-for-fraternization-122211w/
I give you .............. Big Navy's values.............. 8-)
If I was that XO, I'd claim that people just aren't open minded enough!! How can it be wrong to mess around w/a subordinate, when it just feels so right?! 8-) O:-) :-E :-$ =-O :-P
Re:
"We can show who we are..."
Thats the whole problem
"Who" you are is about sex in public.
Slippery slope this...
Pretty soon this is what Sea and Anchor Detail will look like.
Meanwhile.
As tensions grow over local maritime disputes and U.S. influence in the South China Sea, China’s president said Tuesday that its navy should “make extended preparations for military combat,” the AFP reported.
Priorities....
AOD,
1. My blog.
2. My blog.
3. I own, and therefor define, Div Thu.
4. My blog.
I can see Phib's point. But this will go the way of all things that have big Laws of Unintended Consequences following after them like a circus parade. Too many people have made it their agenda item. It will become a protected class of minorities. And that will breed a lot of antagonism from those who once again fail to fall into a protected class but must get by and climb through the ranks on the basis of hard work and integrity.
You have it backwards, Jay. The world is shocked...SHOCKED! at the priests who didn't talk about certain things and didn't make the folks in the pews uncomfortable about their many wayward ways. And it comes out eventually those same priests were exempting themselves from the same moral code they exempted the lay people from. Funny how that goes.... Funny how some of the priests who openly dissented from Church teachings and were so popular turned out to have actually practiced what they preached. ;)
They deal with them in the confessional. And the guy that is cheating on his wife isn't going to file a discrimination "hate speech" lawsuit against the chaplain that mentions adultery is a sin in a sermon. You watch. It's going to come. And with that I'm going to follow advice here and stop engaging with you. You don't want to discuss. You want to bait.
I have a close and continuing relative whose (other service) career was ruined because she didn't take to the courtship invitation of a lesbian overlord. After that the woman had it out for her and succeeded in making her leave the service, though not her profession,which she still does in a civilian capacity.
So why, with their declaration of being openly ghey, does it automatically become an integrity problem on my part?
Are their actions prejudicial to good order and discipline? Evaluate that portion of their conduct accordingly.
And there is the problem, innit? No matter how ostentatiously ghey and flamboyant they choose to be, no matter how many unwanted advances they make toward the men in their unit, they will never really be held accountable.
Try some adverse administrative or legal action, and there will be a legion of advocates and activists who will immediately portray such in the press as persecution and homophobia, and the individual whose career will be in jeopardy is mine, not his. And if you think that won't bleed over from conduct into performance, you are kidding yourself.
See: Hasan, Nidal. Hultgreen, Kara.
sacctly
I dont predict either of these will serve too long, they are going to use the 15 minutes to capitilize using sexual gender as the leverage and will the PAO will spend countless hours of censor time herding the cats...
just sayin...
concur. Although I agree with URR on this one.
hehe
It appears that on my laptop when I comment from home, my comments dont remain.. part of my anti virus? Strange
Spade,
Simple qualifications are a small part of unit cohesion. The other intangibles, trust, honor, fellowship, all come into play. The interaction of a unit, such as an infantry battalion or a ship's crew, is built largely of that.
And there are the unintended consequences. Which is why things like wife swapping and sleeping with juniors is not allowed. And this? Will such fit into that category? Yes, sometimes it will, and the command will be powerless to remedy it because of the political correctness ramifications from on high.
So no, it isn't a diversity problem. It is a moral courage problem. Usually at the top of the rank structure.
And oh yeah...
This "first kiss" hoopla is a new "tradition"....
Can we get an age old -REAL- one back now?
You know...
One that celebrates the sea and mariners...
And a Seagoing Warrior tradition?
Greenert, you need to nip this one in the bud.
GBW,
The "combat tested" discussion isn't entirely irrelevant. With a Navy roughly twice the size of the Marine Corps, and, for argument's sake, 10,000 sailors who have earned the combat action ribbon, it is a stretch past the breaking point to claim that the Navy has been battle-hardened.
That would be like saying the Marine Corps is battle hardened because one infantry regiment, out of three active and one reserve division, has been in a shootin' match.
If we get into a fur flying fracus w/ the Chi-comms, we will scratch their eyes out! We are fabulously prepared for war.
Also, reading "Waiting for Superman" and they mention that the US is ranked roughly 25th in math, but #1 in self esteem. The Navy is going down that road now. Good times, good times.
I have had gays work for me. It mattered not as long as they did their jobs. This or these women of whom we discuss, however might be an issue as they called the press in for this and thus made it about them, and not the crew coming home. Did they go through proper channels? Was the PAO, and thus the CO notified? Was CHINFO given a heads up? So, now you have to view the sailor through the prism of "team" or "self" promoter.
Speaking of prisms, I love rainbows. How the hell did they get to make refracted light THEIR thing and now my love of physics and light bending means I am somehow affiliated w/ the gay movement? Pretty selfish gays, pretty selfish. :)
Well, you also like a third type... The women w/ the Latina Ba dunk a dunk. Don't lie, it is not all about the dark hair. I've seen your Colombian women posts and as Shakira says, the hips don't lie! :)
And when a bunch of the NEW Navy become prisoners of war, they can complain loudly about the rice not being cooked al dente....
Jay, unconfirmed rumors, but I heard rumors there were males leaving DC stations to go check on their girlfriends. Rumor, so no substance, but if you think that the women are as valuable in strength as the men in stopping the flooding and manning the hoses then you should report to urinalysis. There is what is preached by progressives then there is physical reality. But this post isn't about THAT particular diversity industry cash cow.
Jay,
I grew up in the DC area and yes, as it turns out DuPont is a hugely gay area. 70's? We didn't mention bath houses and Bette Midler performing there, but hell, we can talk about Lady GaGa, as she wants to be the new Midler. I grew up around gays, family friends, etc. A lot died of AIDS. There is a lifestyle and it becomes synonimous with them due to the crazy a$$ parades they attribute to their pride. So, yeah, DuPont and SF. We can talk about the other plague in the gay community of being on the DL and spreading the STDs to their unsuspecting spouses, if you'd like.
URR - you slay me 8-) You seem so dang serious, then you pop a funny :-$ =-O :-D
exactly - my kids always pointed out rainbows growing up - because, out in the sky, they look really, really cool. What about double rainbows?? 8-)
We always thought those were cool. Plus, wasn't the rainbow a symbol of God's promise never to destroy the world by a flood again?? Gotta love the rainbow. :-D
Not how it's been hijacked.
Looks like someone is in the holiday spirit. Turning into a regular comedian here! :-D
LT B,
DuPont circle is still a ghey hangout.
But didn't you get the word? The official explanation is that AIDS was spread by Ronald Reagan's lack of funding. It has nothing to do with exceedingly promiscuous and dangerous sexual behaviors.
A digital condom?
That makes Sal's blog the digital equivalent of a Magsaysay Street cathouse?
Speaking of Magsaysay, Lex has a cute blog piece over at his place!
Yeah, it's still a gay area. One of my lovely children was visiting friends there and got a flat tire late at night. Bless 'em, a whole group of gay guys happily changed her tire. I do like them because I don't have to worry about my daughters around them. They're good for that. My daughters have lots of gay friends. And as LtB brought up, the reason I'm sad about them is often they are wonderful, kind, delightful men. Great friends. But their lifestyle on the actuarial tables does not look too long. And that is sad. For lots of reasons. I don't applaud lifestyles that shorten the lifespan for no good reason. God always forgives. People sometimes. Nature... never.
Self promotion of a group and cause in conflict with the norm. Tolerance should not have to equal acceptance. I do not like ANY PDAs rubbed in my face in public. I guess I was brought up to respect myself and the feelings/comfort of those around me. I am an equal opportunity discriminator.
Wow, wasn't expecting quite so much reaction.
James, a sad lab in the corner? Hmm...apparently, I need a little more makeup. ;) Thank you, James. I love protective men.
Grandpa Bluewater, that's heartwarming. Thank you.
AOD, you said it a little more contentiously than I would have, but I agree. If all the men who have traditionally filled out the ranks of the services are driven out by the new policies, I just don't believe that there are enough liberals or libertarians out there who will be willing to take their places.
Andrew, a very reasonable response. I don't share your confidence, but I always appreciate your politeness and your effort to find common ground. You're a likeable guy.
Stu, good luck. I hope your reintegration to civilian life goes smoothly.
Jay, truth is truth no matter what the year.
Kristen, I have that problem. As my fiancee says, I go right for the throat, every time, except with her.
Agreed. And Naval Combat is different than ground combat.
254 comments so far. Sure am glad nobody gives a rip.
AOD - depends on your church. The UUs, the United Church of Christ and most Reform Jewish synagoges have been doing those marriages for years. My Episcopal church will (some diocese in that denomination will, others won't). I suspect this won't be the biggest challenge you face raising your kids - do you own a TV?
DB - The gays changed her tire? Are you sure? We usually think that's what the lesbians are good at (stereotypes aren't just a straight phenomenon).
You mentioned "straw man" below?
No gays aren't mass murderers, mostly. Gacy and Dahmer notwithstanding.
But the senior military leadership that commissioned Hasan, then promoted him three times, remains the same. They were the ones who insisted also in putting Kara Hultgreen in the cockpit of an F-14, even though her record at flight school would have washed out any male.
I think you get what I mean. Conduct and performance will be immune to honest review and evaluation. The activists, and the invertebrate senior leadership will insist on it.
DB - the life expectancy statistics have been debunked. They are based on a sample of obituaries published in local gay newspapers during a single 12 month period during the height of the AIDS crisis. See here for a discussion of the problems with that methodology:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron_obit.html
The current life expectency for gay men disgnosed with AIDS is currently the same as for straight men (assuming access to drugs). My how things have changed since I was young. See here for more:
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20649
"<span>do you own a TV?"</span>
The US Navy is not sanctioning and advocating for MTV's "The Real World".
The schism created in the Episcopal Church by becoming advocates for homosexual clergy is the most serious crisis in that denomination since its founding.
DB - You are correct that the Roman Catholic Church's teachings on this are pretty clear. But every statement from Archbishop Broglio I've seen also mentions the Catechism's teachings about non-discrimination (Paragraph 2358). if RC Chaplains can serve all of their troops I don't have a problem. As a retired Navy Episcopal chaplain I know said in a recent sermon - "chaplain to all, pastor to some."
URR - if the corpsman has problems with gays, he might be in the wrong MOS. Have you ever met a straight one? I'm told they exist, but they seem to be about as common as unicorns.
Andrew, thanks for the civility. It isnt' they won't minister. The Catholic Church actually has a ministry to gays (Courage). It's that chaplains may be targeted for discrimination charges (hate speech?) by others if they vocalize Church teaching. Or are told how to counsel gays, or someday are forced to perform "marriage" ceremonies. Or have their status revoked. Don't say it can't happen. We've seen a lot of stuff happen over the years... like remember when they promised that the new health care laws wouldn't force Catholic health care providers to subsidize abortions? That promise didn't last long.
lol....URR...how...would...you know? The gayborhood moved east to Logan Circle, north to U Street, and well out to all of the 'burbs. Dupont Circle was cleaned up, redecorated, and sold to straight folks (at a nice profit, too...) a while ago.
Historical note.
I believe the original justification was that gays represented a security risk, since the gay lifestyle was all too often associated with multiple furtive liaisons, and a resulting lack of emotional stability; as well as the possiblity of persecution of a subordinate who rejected a senior's advances, or the pain of rejection of intimacy offered by juniors and declined, which might undermine the authority and legitimacy of senior personnel, and lead to resentment and a desire for revenge by juniors with access and opportunity.
Good thing those kinds of "Manning Problems" are now unknown. Right?
Silly idea, no modern record of that sort of thing.
andrewb, so anyone who disagrees with Mullen is defined as "having a problem with gays"? That is somewhat instructive, innit? There cannot be anyone who believes honestly that the advocacy by the Navy of the gay lifestyle is morally questionable?
If one cannot dictate by personally-held beliefs, that should work both ways. It did for Mullen, but not for anyone who disagreed with him.
I know you were talking tongue in cheek about docs, but yes, there have been some straight ones. Some. Have known a few that were constantly on the sniff.
Guest, then the straight folks must have had their gay neighbors over for a cookout or something. Last time I drove through that area of DC, there were plenty of lady-boys all along the sidewalks.
As of 1/1/2009 (from the first page of Google) the Episcopal Church has seen 83 parishes leave, out ot a total of 7,155. The ordination of women was a bigger issue.
Shhhhhh .... we all have the loves that we dare not think about .... but .... yea.
Liddle in the middle but .....
Scott the Badger don't care!
Don't think so. And the ordination of gay activists has furthered the deterioration at the parishoner level.
I have a ringside seat. The parish in question is hemmorhaging long time parishoners as the church has become a place of political activism and not religious worship.
There are many others like it.
My experience as well. And if you cheated with another officer - then both were blackballed.
NJP? No, there are other ways of taking care of officers.
Repeal DOMA. Now we get to the real goal of the repeal of DADT agenda.
Repealing DOMA has what, exactly, to do with making a more combat ready fighting force?
Zilch. It is an activist/advocate goal for no more reason than furthering the GLBT agenda. Just like repeal of DADT.
Yeah, I guess you're upset by this one too:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Kissing_the_War_Goodbye.jpg/220px-Kissing_the_War_Goodbye.jpg
Ahh yes, the assumption that officers can't lead. Don't blame the entire population of gay people on the poor leadership of a few.
<span>"I would ask what value you put on a person who values him/herself and personal desires above the good of the group"</span>
-One MASSIVE assumption. How dare anyone in the military have a spouse. pfft, you're hilarious.
I love the people that say that the gay folks should keep their private lives to themselves, while collecting dependent BAH. LOVE it.
Repealing DOMA would allow death benefits to go to partners without special legal documentation. You know, like for married folks. It would also allow the notification to be done correctly, and allow for dependent BAH that my straight friends have defended so valiantly. It would also allow for the military member to get their partner covered under Tricare, like all the married folks.
Are recruiting goals being met? Are we looking to force people out because we have too many in uniform? Show some data, or stop crying.
No kidding?
So repeal of DOMA, with all the concomitant fallout, is required to further the gay agenda.
Not to make our armed forces more combat ready.
Good thing the DoD is there to be used for social experimentation.
As long as we have enough people to fill the ranks we can be oppressive, arbitrary, and capricious with ending people's careers or forcing them out because they refuse to submit to rampant political correctness.
Yep. That's fair.
URR - see, I knew you would come around to support Repeal!
There isn't much doubt that the mainline Protestant denominations can be rather "trendy" and politically correct, but your RC churches have a bit of that going on too, just on other issues.
Its been rather well documented that a lot of the turmoil in the Episcopal, Lutheran (ELCA) and Methodists are the result of a couple of people and their checkbooks fomenting problems.
I too wish the folks in the pulpet talked more about the readings and a bit less about politics, but I don't want to worship someplace I'm not wanted either.
Hah! That did make me chuckle!
Article 125 may not be enforcable after the USSC (Lawrence) and CAAF (Marcum) cases, at least without a "good order and discipline" element, but adultery is still on the books.
Word on the street is PAC Fleet is looking for a test case to throw the book at a gay officer for frat and make an example that the rules apply to everyone. I don't have a problem with that - one standard for all should be the rule.
Combat readiness?
The California National Guard issued a memo a couple of months ago which basically said that FRGs were available for anyone who could support a Soldier's readiness, and went on to list parents, aunts, uncles, and close freinds. Being forced to ignore a Soldier's (Sailor''s, Marine's) domestic situation and presumably most significant other will degrade that person's ability to deploy and be combat focused during that deployment. This is the same logic why we do all that Legal Assistance work during SRPs.
I'm out of here for the holiday.
Merry Christmas, Hannukha, Solstice, Festivus, or other mid-winter observance of your choice to all.
Well, at least we're getting the time line straight. 1950: Crazy and a security risk, 1957 Crazy and not a security risk, 1974, not crazy, 2011 The " I couldn't help myself, I compromised a huge haul of TS because I was crazy because I was gay and nobody loved me" defense is used at a traitor's General Court Martial. Prosecution's theory: Gays are pure as the driven snow and completely well adjusted, except for the odd and
unpredictable case of massive treason.
"What is truth" (Pontius Pilate circa 30 AD).
"It depends on what the meaning of "is" is." (Bill Clinton, sometime or other).
It all makes perfect sense. All the fellas say so. Don't they?
Me, I'm perplexed. What next?
I am much a lapsed RC because I really despise the politicking from the pulpit. Can't be a good Catholic unless you vote for more social spending!
Good luck with your feats of strength!
"<span>I don't have a problem with that - one standard for all should be the rule."</span>
I have a HUGE problem with that. Test cases to throw the book at someone to "make an example" are antithetical to objective justice.
Are you kidding me? The guys that went after Captain Honors were trying to get the sailor for sexual assault.
The knight of mix a lot approves.
So repeal of DADT and repeal of DOMA are actually REQUIRED for combat readiness.
Huh. Imagine the surprise of the folks who fought in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.
Andrew, one of my friends bought a new car. He is gay. My other friend is a bit of a car nut and was asking him questions about the car. "Hey, dude, you got the wrong gay here. You want the ones that munch carpet, wear flannel and carry a toolbox. We freaking decorate!" Yes, the stereotype is there, but please, I have way too many gay friends that match it for me to argue that there isn't something to it. That said, this particular friend is a football buddy and was on the field every Saturday, well when he and his lover weren't having leather hot tob parties in Orlando. Yeah, there is no substance to a lot of these stereotypes.
That's one leadership approach, although it isn't one I'd recommend.
The Navy isn't advocating that people be gay. You must have misread something.
Denying gay people the ability to serve is more social experimentation than allowing them. They exist in the world, why deny them the opportunity, other than you don't like what they do at home? I bet you do things at home that I don't agree with, but I don't try to make laws that affect your life.
I am a ELCA Badger, who sleeps late on Sundays, because my church has stopped being a church, and become a social activist group.
Yeah, must have misread the lead story from that particular service that features two women kissing upon return of one aboard Oak Hill. For the purposes of featuring two women kissing.
Nobody denied gay people the ability to serve under DADT. And you know it.
"<span>I bet you do things at home that I don't agree with, but I don't try to make laws that affect your life."</span>
Like gun control? Carbon footprint taxes? Censorship of the internet? Banning incadescent light bulbs? Arresting parents for spanking children? Fines and penalties for improper sorting of recycling?
No, nobody on the Left ever intrudes into my private business. Perish the though.
true, but in my area of Minnesota, the RC's are true to form with the abortion issue, In fact, they're better at advocating the life issue than the evangelicals up here. I respect them a ton!
<span>The Department of Defense announced today the death of a soldier who was supporting Operation Enduring Freedom.
Spc. Mikayla A. Bragg, 21, of Longview, Wash., died Dec. 21 in Khowst province, Afghanistan. She was assigned to the 201st Brigade Support Battalion, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division, Fort Knox, Ky.</span>
Nope. Not offended by that one. It was spontaneous, unchoreographed, and at a time of historical significance and joy at the end of a war. It has to be taken in context. Sucking face for shock value or to make a socio-political statement is not the same. I really shouldn't have to explain things like this on this board, but for you I make this exception. Happy Fishing.
Hahahahaha. Posts like this are why I'm in the GBW fan club.
I have a fan club?! Who knew! What a lovely Christmas present and from such a lovely woman.
Well, DB, we seem to have a mutual admiration society. What a pleasant surprise.
Atta pepper, Sal.
Immune to honest review and evaluation?
I hear where you're going, and agree to a degree, *but*...last time I signed a USMC fitrep, you could evaluate your subordinate as you pleased. Now the guy who bottom-lines it (forgot the title) can override you, and say that your dirtbag is a water-walker, but you can still call a dirtbag a dirtbag.
If a senior rater (might have the wrong term...immediate superior signing the fitrep) calls a guy a dirtbag, then has a talk with the final fitrep signer and *changes* his grades, that's weakness on the part of the senior rater. Man up, senior raters...call a spade a spade. And if it screws up your career, then your career wasn't worth having.
Along the same lines, to claim that integration of g*ys "forces" people out of the military is a specious argument. Folks, you control your own destiny. If you don't like where the Navy's going, and choose to punch out, that's fine...your choice. But please don't tell me they "forced you out". That's like some dirtbag saying "I wanted to serve, but they wouldn't let me do coke...they *forced* me out. Not my fault!"
Folks who choose to complete their term of service honorably and choose not to continue, that's fine...but nobody "forced" you.
There is far to much "poor me" and "feel sorry for me" in the military these days...I'd like to see a return to pride in being part of the military, vice "woe is me, they don't pay me enough". Or "woe is me, they're forcing me out because I choose not to work with g*ys."
Exactly. "Ignore those broken windows. No, they have no bearing on the crime rate".
I didn't hear a whole bunch of "poor me" anything in Ramadi and Fallujah.
You think that being forced to watch the Navy or other armed service advocate for the gay lifestyle and accomodate them as yet another self-defining politically protected group "specious", go ahead. It's bullshit.
I have seen pro/cons get revised and double-signer fitness reports get pulled (adverse for failing to qual with a service weapon) because of screams of racism or sexism. And then I saw the retribution against the reporting senior. Too many times to count.
If you think that is the way leadership should handle things, then your ideas about serving are not terribly well-considered.
If you think the Navy is "pressing a button and standing around somewhere" then you're either very uninformed or as dense as concrete.
The "taxpayers" have, in vote after vote after vote, shot down gay marriage and "gay friendly" issues. The "taxpayers" didn't decide anything here. A small group of politicians and bureaucrats did. In the case of Prop 8, said politicians and bureaucrats huddled with lawyers on the best way to ignore the will of the taxpayers.
Your Episcopal church is shrinking every day as people that, oh, actually believe in that Bible thing split off into different denominations because their leaders are abandoning Christianity as fast as they can. The mainline churches are dying precisely because they believe nothing except politically correct bromides, and people are voting with their feet. Look at the membership numbers in mainline churches in the US. All of them have been trending down for years, some of them dramatically so. And the UU's? You don't have to even believe in God to be a UU. There are atheist support groups in various UU churches. The UUC has devolved to a place where non-believers go to get that churchy vibe on Sunday without having any of those pesky belliefs.
"<span>A bedroom is not a barracks room. Or a berthing space. "</span>
Or a military branch, for that matter.
As has been said before, the military is here to protect freedom, not practice it.
URR, I think we are more on the same page than you might think. I certainly don't think "leadership" should be monkeying with fitreps.
Revised pro/cons and pulled fitreps? Total BS. I would hope that the reporting senior who suffered retribution took control of his destiny and said "I'm leaving this unethical BS organization" versus "they forced me out". (Or worse yet, "It sucks, but I'll swallow my dignity and play along, since I'm unhireable in the private sector, and the uniforms are cool.")
I'm just preaching self-determination.
And good on the folks in Ramdi and Fallujah. But it's still BS if they're falsifying WIC applications to get "what's coming to them" and queuing up for charity food.
No problem at all with "thanks for your service...lemme buy you a beer." BIG problems with "oh, you poor serviceman, let me buy you some groceries." Seems like in the last 5 yrs or so (maybe the advent of FRO's?) their's been a lot of "poor you" and infantilization of enlisted folks. It ought to stop.
To my original point, are you saying that if I, a reporting senior, give a g*y guy an honest dirtbag eval, it might not see the light of day? How would that happen? Reporting senior falsifies my marks?
I'm not calling BS...just genuinely want to know.
I am Episcopalian, but my church is High Anglican Catholic. We might as well be Roman Catholic, and old school roman catholic at that. Gregorian chants, incense, the whole 9. Prayers for the people start with "Holy Father Benedict, the Bishop of Rome." Archbishop of Cantebury, Rowan, is not on the list. We do not have female priests, we do not have homosexual marriages performed.
I don't have kids. I do have TVs, but they are older than I am. It's ok.......I rarely use them except for the History Channel. I get my news online, the Early Bird, news radio, and SIPRNET / JWICS.
At the end of the day, cultures rot because they refuse to take stands. Europe is not thriving, it is rotting. Rome rotted. Atheist, hedonistic, socialist societies are doomed to failure.
Well the good news is: I used to have to pay a $100 or more to see two chicks kissing, now I can just go to Pier 12 to watch it. :-)
Stu you must have had one tight assed wardroom. Most wardrooms I was in took a "its not my business" viewpoint-unless the lover in question was inside the fenceline. THEN it was a problem. otherwise, none of my business.
And if anything the wardroom should stick with the officer-not the shrew of an estranged wife.
URR,
In charity, I must tell you that such is bad reasoning to be "lapsed." If you are Catholic, then you go Mass for the Eucharist. Full stop.
Find a good parish, manned by traditional priests in communion with Rome (preferably the Fraternity of Saint Peter who say the Old Mass) and go there. And keep an open mind that everything you hear from the pulpit that you disagee with isn't automatically wrong. It may be that the Lord is challenging your error.
Merry Christmas.
Stu
I am a displaced Episcopalian....
Not sure if the Bishop has figured out what hat to wear for Christmas or not...
1975...Lost of folks said that putting women aboard ships was a problem.
Luddites! they (we) were called. Get with the modern times!!!!
Well how many CO firings in the last 2/5/15 years has occurred due to zipper errors in combat units?
Not a problem eh?
I should think the numbers speak for themselves..
You know...I don't give a rat's ass damn about girlfirend-girlfriend.
I served with gay people, and had no issues (like the MS who used to practice his choreography on the boat deck).
(my closest friend ...who is sitting a few rows down here at work as I type is a former AO...and she is gay)
Prior to my service, dad gave top cover to a YN2 that he said, "was the best damned yeoman he had ever had", and was gay.
The issues here are:
These two used a "tradition" (nueveau tradition in the Kwanza mold-but I digress) to very deliberately advance the Pride agenda.
And they deserve to get gigged for that.
And if they show up as one of those everybody gets to show their butt bachannal Pride Parades in uniform...
Then they should be Court Martialed.
Terrible.
I will pray for her family.
Why drag her tragic loss into this conversation?
Chris G, how would it happen? It comes from pressure from above. After said service member scoots to an EO rep that every command is mandated to have. And/or to the media, which will make sure the advocacy groups get the story they would like them to have.
Admirals and generals, who are answerable to metrics on EO complaints and FITREP/pro and con distribution BY RACE AND GENDER (and soon sexual orientation), will see the attention this is getting and chiefs of staff will furrow their brows and have talks with Regimental COs, who will in turn talk with Bn COs.
And if you stick to your guns and don't change the marks, someone above you (maybe not your Bn or Regt CO, who may be 100% behind you) will. And the whisper will be that said-named reporting senior is racist/sexist, and now homophobic. And if you think those whispers aren't intended for the ears of command selection and promotion boards, you are very naive. So instead of the service member with the mediocre performance that gets counseled, it is the reporting senior.
When one asks questions for which there is no good answer, the response is always the same.
Where in my oath of office did it say I had to share Mike Mullen's personal beliefs about the gay lifestyle being as legitimate as mine?
If two gay service members can billet together, how come I can't billet with a woman?
Why does YN2 Lightloafers have the ear of the Command Master Chief without having to utilize his chain of command?
The answer is "Shut up!", or "If you don't like it, leave the service!"
Those here who tell me that is the military we want? I wouldn't want to be anywhere near their morally and intellectually bankrupt asses when the shooting starts.
Stu,
Save the "bad reasoning" speech.
Blankets for North Vietnam in 1969.
Embrace the Marxists of Nicaragua in 1980
Decry and defame the accusers of abuse in 1990.
"No war in Iraq" in 2003.
I don't check my intellect at the holy font. My reasons are my reasons. Wannit a few weeks ago where you told me it wasn't mine to judge?
By the way, when I have found a Church and a Priest which focused Mass on the Eucharist, I attended faithfully.
I would take it as a personal favor if everyone would end this so-called discussion now. It must be obvious to anyone with half a brain that there is no convincing the other side of the discussion (if this can be called a discussion) that there is no chance of changing the other sides opinon. That being a given, then all the rest is verbal mastrubation, meant only to make one feel better. Please. Stop this. It is Christmas and we all should be better than this. Talk instead of the season we are in and how joyous tomorrow will be as we celebrate His birth and enjoy the company of our family and friends. Anything at all except this pointless bickering over something none of you will change.
Merry Christmas!
Byron, Chris G asked a legitimate and considered question below. It deserves an answer. Whether you consider it a real discussion or not is up to you.
Byron...
This isn't going to go away.
With all respects...
If the converstation bothers you, don't enter it.
Goodness knows everyone here can check the "airing of grievances" box ......
<span>When you leave Peter because of Judas, you have absolutely checked your reason and embraced your emotion.
I'll take the Body of Christ from the hands of a wayward priest everyday, rather than forsake His grace out of my pride in not liking the priest (even if my dislike is justified).
It's about the Eucharist and nothng else. </span>
Kristen,
Thanks for the well-wishes.
It's going to be great. I have purchased land outside of the Clear Creek Monastery in Oklahoma. I'll be living near tradition monk who celebrate the Latin Mass all while farming my land.
<span>“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”
― Hilaire Belloc</span>
It wasn't just Judas. It was Sandino, and Ho Ch Minh, and Geoghan, and Sean Penn.
His Grace will find me. Those dressed as "Priests" notwithstanding.
It absolutely is Judas. Christ's own hand-picked Apostle betrayed Him, yet Judas was still called to be a priest. That set the tone.
Those "dressed as Priests" were all similarly called by God, breathed on by the Holy Spirit with an indelible mark and have hands consecrated to provide us the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine. Their sins and shortcomings don't matter in that regard as it is God writing straight with crooked lines.
Let God sort out the priests. He will. But don't let their misdeed be an excuse to be "lapsed." It's about the Eucharist and nothing else.
(BTW, Sandino, Ho Chi Minh and Sean Penn were/are not priests.)
You know, Stu, I don't care for the Mormon missionaries walking the neighborhood and incessantly attempting to provide insights into my faith and my God. They have an excuse. They are 20 and, though called "elders", don't have the perspective to know that others can come to decisions and conclusion about the deeper matters of faith and life.
You are NOT twenty.
Those wearing a Roman Collar are not priests if they do not live up to the expectations of that calling. No, Sandino, Father Ho, and Sean Penn are not priests. So why are they being channeled from the pulpit?
Let's end this discussion string. Your evangelizing seems to assume my ignorance/incapability to what being a Catholic means.
No need to assume anything with you.
This whispering thing must be a Marine thing that URR speaks of. Never ran into it in my Navy. I have signed a bunch of fitreps and evals, a person's sexuality, politics, gender, or race never entered into my evaluation of their performance. I don't think it ever mattered on the reports that were written on me, either.
Sure Jhey. You miss the point intentionally once again.
Byron posted to tell others they shouldn't post. Awesome!
Top that off with the recently conducting survey saying it's about 1.7% of the population that are gay...so, it's about making 98% plus of the population conform to the wishes of a group that makes it their duty to "discriminate" themsleves based on the function of thier sexual organs. Actually, that seems like a pretty empty life style to me....that being your means to indetify yourself in the human race...
A few do. Not a lot, URR, but there are a few sailors that are non SEAL guys that have fired in anger. I had an AGC who was a .50 gunner w/ the SEALs. An Intel Officer I know was w/ a ANG unit for 18 months shooting and scooting. The Navy shot down his BS w/ a V, and the Army was so pissed they gave him a BS AND a JCOM to show that he did NO $h!T good stuff out there. He broke and IED ring w/ his forensics and hard work along the convoy route. Small numbers, in comparison w/ the Marines, but there are 3.5 Navies. Dirt Navy, they get it done, have been out there grunting, working and protecting, Blue Water Navy and they largely have been on their normal at sea routine, and the DC Navy. You can imagine my view of the DC Navy. The 0.5 are the IAs between the blue water and dirt navy guys. They are out there, but not really downrange.
But, that said, combat is the real discriminator. The Bluewater Navy, having not really been in a full on at sea combat engagement has been sucked into double speak, diversity diddling. They have accepted the silliness doled out from the DC Navy and for sake of careerism, been willing to brush under the rug the issues or "leadership challenges" that come with the non warrior ethos edicts to come out of DC. PC, diversity, double standards, divergence from Navy Core Values. Hell, even Phib admitted to fear of DivThurs in an non-anonymous forum. The derkomisar does not like the light.
Again, God bless these females and I hope they are in love and stay in love. But shame on them for calling the press and making a political statement about it. If the Navy parades them around on talk shows, then that will also be ashame. If we are to believe that gays in the ranks are no big deal, then let's just treat as such, do our jobs, work together, live together, follow the UCMJ (let's ignore they are talking of legalizing beastiality, WTF?) and get back to that warrior ethos and Core Value thingy we are supposed to be about.
Roger on your comments, LT B. What is missing from the Navy "combat hardened" equation are two vital elements:
1. Very few, if any, Sailors have had the experience of combat at sea. Which is the element in which the hammer can be expected to fall in the next go-round (China)
2. The IAs with battle experience do not include senior Navy officers who are drivers and players in shaping tactics and doctrine. The ones with battle experience, the relatively few that have it, are often painted out of the picture by those who don't. Thus, the Navy has no Mattis, or Conway, or Nicholson, or Odierno, or McMaster, or Petraeus, or Dunford, or like Officers who are battle tested not just as individuals, but as commanders in their element.
Your assertions are correct regarding the DC/Blue Navy's malfunctions. Without big stuff to worry about, they look around for small stuff. Ignoring the routine, unglamorous, but important stuff. Like manpower, and shipbuilding, and maintenance, and training for war.
URR,
We are in agreement. The latest innovative stuff to come out of the Navy is digi blues, lean six sigma, and other manning and accounting things. The LCS has been a failure, the ship building as of late has been abyssmal w/ the new ships having propulsion issues, PC reigns supreme, and the diversity diktat does not go to sea, but drives, it seems, a lot of our policy and affects manning and training budgets at sea. We are not honest about what is really going on. Now, this publication where the girls hammed it up for the cameras, once again is a shift from core competencies. A minor thing when taken by itself, but huge when piled on the rest of the crap that is going on. How and when does it stop? When do we as a culture say, "enough, we have work to do! Get to scraping, get to painting, get to practicing ship driving, craft launch, recovery and put steel on the freaking target!"
I had a soldier talk about being ashore, under the protective umbrella of the Navy's fire support and guns. I sadly told him that we can no longer really do that. He looked at me and said that was sad, as he loved the feeling of security knowing the Navy was there to back him up.
I, too, am saddened. At least he can take solace in that we are the Global Force for Good though, huh?
perspective. it got significantly less reporting than some lesbians swapping spit on pier 2 at NAB Little Creek.
I'm confused...I post something, it gets slammed by our host. URR posts almost same thing, no slam? Hey, I believe in playing favorites as much as the next guy, but at least admit to it!
AOD,
You lack my wit, charm, boyish good looks, and oh-so genteel way of self expression. (cough!)
A guess, but it seems our host thought you were admonishing him for not putting this on DivThu.
You're right about perspective guest...
Which one made the cyber cover of Drudge for two days running?
Which image is imprinted in most lay folks' minds when they think of women in the military?
Contrast and compare the images emanating peirside from...say...China as compared to Little Creek. Which one evokes an image of a navy ready to fight and win wars at sea?
Perspective indeed.
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