Thursday, December 02, 2010

Diversity Thursday

This is a good news DivThu. From the Report of the Comprehensive Review of the Issues Associated with a Repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” we have some sanity. Some adult thought. Some reasoned and modern concepts.

This is almost as if 'ole Sal wrote it hiz'elf.

At the bottom of page 13 we find something so good you want get nakid and roll around in it; but not THAT way ...
We do not recommend that sexual orientation be placed alongside race, color, religion, sex, and national origin, as a class eligible for various diversity programs, tracking initiatives, and complaint resolution processes under the Military Equal Opportunity Program. We believe that doing so could produce a sense, rightly or wrongly, that gay men and lesbians are being elevated to a special status as a “protected class” and will receive special treatment. In a new environment in which gay and lesbian Service members can be open about their sexual orientation, we believe they will be accepted more readily if the military community understands that they are simply being permitted equal footing with everyone else.
... and say it along with me .... because we know that right now, simply by what block they check on a form, the children of Vice Admirals and dudes that look just like me and grew up in the "Leave it to Beaver" world of sub-urban Maryland, "...receive special treatment" just because the Diversity Bullies and the CNO demand that we treat people by the color of their skin, instead of the content of their character.

Expect some pushback from the Diversity Industry though - if they can rope them in that is more job security for them. Make no mistake about it - 75% of those who push the hardest do because they have money in the game.


We can all hope that one day we can reach a point in American where we treat everyone as adults and equal citizens. Until then, if we can just get post-DADT to "Don't Care" - then I will take that as a small victory in a larger battle towards equality for all.

Even if you oppose repeal of DADT, you have to admit this is good news.

156 comments:

LT B said...

A DADTer that just wants to serve actually bring WAY less drama than a hot chick to a unit.  I could care less about gheys as long as I don't have to sit through another damned GMT on sensitivity but now titled, "His wee wee, his bung hole and you."  The military and the Navy especially spends WAY too much time worried about this crap.  Set the military standard, hold the military standard, recruit, train and equip to it and all will be right w/ the world.  Anything else is bigoted, selfish, greedy double talk.

anon said...

I can't wait for the CNO to attend the first "Gay Engineer of the Year" award ceremony.

Spade said...

Yeah, 'cause you can't totally game that system.

"I didn't get that promotion because I'm gay! I'm calling the Diversity Police!"
"No, you're not gay."
"Sure, I am."
"You've never mentioned it before."
"I was closeted. Afraid of what my peers might say."
"You're married with three kids. You've been married for as long as you've been in the Navy."
"Lots of gay people have been married and I feel we should stay together for the kids."
"You had an affair with my wife last year you bastard."
"Okay, sometimes I lean bisexual. She does have a great rack."

Phil said...

"...another damned GMT on sensitivity but now titled, 'His wee wee, his bung hole and you.'" 

I would hate to have to do the graphics for that PowerPoint.

The Usual Suspect said...

Sal,
I think you are guilty of "Hoping & Changing"...the Diversity Bullies and their cadre will not let this opportunity to add another protected class slip away.  You ration of grog is cancelled for today due to your impositiion of rational thought as a quality of the Directorate of Diversity.  Gay, not gay, I really don't care; just don't wave it in my face - no pun intended.

Stu said...

Coming soon to an NKO terminal near you...

Mandatory Homosexuality Acceptance Training

We have ships that don't work (and not enough of the working variety), aircraft that can't be supported, an IA program that is non-sensical supporting manpower in a reactionary mode for 10+ years, a lack of focus on what we are trying to achieve militarility but it's full steam ahead on homosexuals in the military and of course our #1 priority, diversity.

I continue to count the days until retirement. 

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

It's OK, Sal, stop by the Badger Bunker under The Front Porch. Delta Bravo didn't drink it dry the other day.  I am pretty sure that there is some grog in storeroom 17, in the West Tunnel.  

Salty Gator said...

Service Academy papers cited were jokes.  Not one mentioned warfighting effectiveness.  instead, they tried to do the ivy league thing and examine the issue through the lens of a sociologist.  Sigh.  Why do we bother with them anymore?  Flush the service academies, they serve no purpose if they are "just another university."  We can get officers cheaper.
Back to the subject matter at hand.  I continue to be disgusted by the silencing effort that is underway.  Slapping the table when the report comes out to your disagreeing flags is wrong.  Flag officers have a responsibility to communicate their advice to Congress and policy makers when it is asked for.  Simply having Mullen and Gates make decisions is foolhardy, and devoid of actual warfighting perspective.  Sigh.

Salty Gator said...

who says he won't be a nominee?  ZING!

Anonymous said...

Ya know...I love that statement, and it's definately a step in the right direction (personal feelings aside).

Now all we need to do is get the diversity bullies to apply it unilaterally.  Make it read something like:

"We do not recommend that <span>ANY FACTOR</span> be placed alongside <span>ANY OTHER FACTOR</span>, as a class eligible for various diversity programs..."

Then, and only then, will we be making real progress.

sid said...

While you are entirely spot on CDR...

I see some hurt feelings, drama, and ACLU fights for gays to be designated as one of, "the protected" coming down the pike.

Salty Gator said...

Hot chicks rarely cause problems on ships.  It is the...eh hem...homely girls who are "underway hot" that get into trouble.  Hot chicks know how to handle attention.

Just my (limited) experience.

Salty Gator said...

B, you are a pig, but I like you.

Salty Gator said...

CDR, I will use this report to ask the CNO about diversity programs at the next all hands call.

Outlaw Mike said...

And what's your take on the news that a clear majority of COMBAT troops oppose repealing DADT?

Hey, I'm not the one who should be telling here that an army is like a knife. The part that actually cuts is but a tiny amount of the material.

My point is if you take the armed forces as a whole, you will get of course the votes of Madam X doing a bureau job in some NATO HQ and the vote of Mr Y who has landed himself a cushy job as far away from any combat risk as possible. These people often lead lives that differ not so much from civilians in the private or public sector. So naturally the 'majority' of the armed forces is pro repealing.

But imho, no one ever said the army was a democracy. I think the opinion of the combat troops outweighs the opinion of the more numerous enlisted men and women in a non-combat role.

Stu said...

Mullen would be for whatever position his boss favors. 

This report was nothing but a formality.  The decision had already been made and they put together some "paperwork" to make it seem as if they did some due diligence. 

Anonymous said...

The what is Cdr Salamander drinking bit  needs updating.  To Diversity Mafia KoolAid.

Not establish another protected class?  You are welcome to believe as much or as little of that as you lik. Who else is authorized to violate the UCMJ and the chain is forbidden to investigate? The only change will be to  authorized to boldly and notoriously violate the Code.

I've heard of something in DC called "the Sisterhood".  Please explain what that is, does, and how it does it. Can the straight white boys start something like that?

xformed said...

And therein the encapsulated version of but the beginnings of this "effect."

Then we'll have to go throught this all agin when the bisexuals and confused sexuals (lean one way one time, the other the next) all wnat to make sure their "title" is specifically listed for fear of being marginalized.

Shall I say it?  Yes, I have to:  Pandora's Box is being opened....

Sorry, in advance to gentle eyes, but before those wrods were hijacked, they did mean something specific...

Grumpy Old Ham said...

I suspect any such graphics needed can be found at little to no cost somewhere on Al Gore's Amazing Internet (tm).  :)

Not that there's anything wrong with that, or I have personal experience with same, of course.

Anonymous said...

The Military Equal Opportunity categories are established by law and DOD Instruction.  They do not include sexual orientation, and the proposed repeal of DADT does not add it.  

There is much backstory about how that got stripped out very early in this process, but suffice to say that I would not like the Center for American Progress or the Human Rights Campaign to try to sell my house; they seem to have extremely poor negotiating skills.

(why can't I get this thing to sign in?)
Andrewdb

xbradtc said...

The report overall (and the survey especially) is a sham. It's merely political cover for a decision already made. 

But the cited paragraph (and other notations that the chain of command has the tools to enforce good order and discipline) raise the question, if the chain of command can ensure that THIS group of service members is treated fairly, why can't we trust the chain of command to treat ALL service members fairly? Methinks the panel might have taken a look at some of the Diversity Industry and realized that it was a scam.

Anonymous said...

The Report (bottom of page 6) talks about this among those who have served with someone they thought was gay.  92% of the overall military said their unit's "ability to work together" was not a problem.  In Army combat arms units this number was 89% and in Marine combat units it was a mere 84%.  These are very high numbers.

Andrewdb

Anonymous said...

CDR - Note that a mere 4.0% of Service Members felt that "Diversity among unit members" was a factor (not an important one, but _a_ factor) in enabling Service Members to fullfill their mission duruing combat.  See Table 4.13 in Vol 1, Findings From the Surveys.

All of the reports and back up stuff is available here:

www.defense.gov/dadt

Andrewdb

Byron said...

Now THAT should be a life-enriching, career enhancing moment...

Byron said...

Go to #6 in the North tunnel, you'll find the Carolina mountain dew :)

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

Just remember to plug the forklift into the charger when your done.

LT B said...

A 4 is a 10 at sea.  Hot chicks stir the dudes up.  Then, they will either cycle through the dudes/chicks or shut it all down.  Meanwhile, the 4-10 is the belle of the ball and while would not garner attention in the real world, at sea has become the nutcracker suite.  As a result, she gets pregnant, or STDs get passed or whatever.  Is it all the girl's fault?  Good Lord no.  Would any of that happen if we hadn't put females on combatants?  Ummm, no.  If we didn't have double standards and kicked all parties involved out, would it be an easier problem to manage?  Probably.  Just my opinion based on observations and dealing w/ the stupid Sailor tricks.

LT B said...

I can't wait to see the first male claim transexualism to PT to female standards.  :)

Salty Gator said...

 I will ask a non-loaded question.  The report states that homosexuals will not be provided "protections" that members who fall into other racial/ethnic/gender categories do in order to keep away perceptions of "protected status."  Does this DoD report then imply that members who fall into those categories are in a "protected status" category?
Follow up questions I will not ask: how do you square that with EEO?  how do you square the DoD's new homosexual non-Diversity policy with federal law EEO? The possibilities are endless.

LT B said...

Thinking someone is gay and a gay troop holding hands w/ someone at the command XMAS party, or the VERY open guy in the field.  Also if there is any sexual harassment claim because one dude calls another a "fag," and now the unit's morale has been affected.  Sides are drawn, etc.  Won't happen?  Bull$h!t.  Look at what happened w/ women at sea.

Tag said...

"<span>Coming soon to an NKO terminal near you...  
 
Mandatory Homosexuality Acceptance Training  "</span>

Bullseye.

Tag said...

xformed:  Pandora's Box has been open for decades, now it's got a crowbar trying to pry it open to new heights.

LT B: I will buy the beer for that circus act.

Tag said...

Salty Gator: hear hear

Anonymous said...

agree.

andrewdb said...

Trans stuff is addressed in the med regs (its grounds for seperation) and would not be modified by repeal of DADT.

Andrewdb

Anonymous said...

I don't see much difference between the Diversity Bullies and those who would leave the military if DADT were repealed.  Both are putting something other than the mission first.  I would rather serve with an openly gay person than with someone who throws a temper tantrum if the military doesn't cater to their wishes.  I've worked with people like that, and they've been terrible teammates.  The gays I have worked with have been some of the best teammates I've had. 

Stu said...

<span>"Trans stuff is addressed in the med regs (its grounds for seperation) and would not be modified by repeal of DADT."  
</span>
<span>Give it time.  Baby steps.  After all, who are we to judge on somebody's desire to serve their country.</span>

LT B said...

What I meant to say, but obviously did not fully type, was that thinking and being around a flamboyant troop are two differnt things and require a different level of appreciation or tolerance. 

sobersubmrnr said...

"We do not recommend that sexual orientation be placed alongside race, color, religion, sex, and national origin, as a class eligible for various diversity programs, tracking initiatives, and complaint resolution processes under the Military Equal Opportunity Program."

They will though, if DADT is repealed. Guaranteed.

The fact that this is even being discussed is bad news.

sobersubmrnr said...

Oh puhleese....a servicemember has completed their mission once their obligated service time is up. Accusing someone of not putting their mission first by getting out at their EAOS is ridiculous.

C-dore 14 said...

Byron, Everybody (except for Grant and Eisenhower) got "passed over" sooner or later. ;)

xformed said...

I know...it was the satire entrailed within the concept, and the name, and the subject at hand.  Gotta stay obtuse for the delicate eyes around here.

Jay said...

Why would that be a zing, child gator?

LT B said...

Catch CJCS comments?

CDR Salamander said...

He lost credibility on this issue, to me at least, over the summer.  He is a bully and is not helping.  His tweets on the subject are painful to read.

Anonymous said...

The "mission" of a service member is quite a bit more than sticking around until end of obligation.  Staying is the minimum, if not below the minimum expected performance.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I mean who doesn't enjoy using derogatory and inflammatory slanders towards leadership, peers, and subordinates.  Seems like a valid concern.

Anonymous said...

I couldn't agree more US. We shouldn't be talking about families at work at all.  Don't wave it in people's faces.  I can't wait until we get rid of dependent's pay, wives clubs, and insurance for kids and spouses.

LT B said...

I have NEVER pondered looking at his tweeds.

LT B said...

Most lobs with power become bullies.

Stu said...

Ever see and hear him at an All Hands call?  I watched two LTs and an LCDR absolutely confound him with relentless questions on the diversity policies in detailing.  It was painful to watch.

LT B said...

My guess guest is that you never played sports on an all male team or deployed as part of an all male unit. Most of us DO enjoy sophomoric things like that. Please unwad your panties before commenting. Change your moniker to Francis then proceed to lighten up.

Anonymous said...

Add that to the list of things you're wrong about.  The military is either a profession or a football team, it's not a professional football team (doesn't tolerate the drug use and crimes, thankfully).  I do appreciate the insults, it gives good insight into your character.

Anonymous said...

They're tweets not tweeds.  CDR is not talking about his jacket.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

So tell us, Guest, what is your service record that allows you to speak so authoritatively about obligation?

DM05 said...

Good post/insights, protected class or not - whatever.. Political decision coming eventually to a military platform near you, even with the curmudjeon McCain leading the charge against CJCS. Protected or not, Christmas party, command gatherings, and gay pride month on base will be an interesting sight to behold, indeed.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

LT B,

The training session you REALLY have to worry about is "His wee wee, YOUR bung hole, and him."

Salty Gator said...

child gator?  it is a zing because while our fearless leader likes to think of himself as an alpha male, it would be highly amusing to watch his ego fold as a group of professional homosexuals were shocked to learn that he isn't gay.

Just like it would be highly amusing to learn that you have no idea what you are talking about whenever you post, although that would not be surprising.

Anonymous said...

<span>So tell us, Regis, what is your service record that allows you to speak so authoritatively about </span><span>"His wee wee, YOUR bung hole, and him."?  Oh, Marines... I guess that explains it all.</span>

LT Rusty said...

Okay, that right there ... that gave it away.  You really weren't ever in the military in a deployed / deployable capacity, were you?  If you were, you'd have a whole different perspective on this sort of thing.

LT Rusty said...

Only time I ever saw him speak was in ... May?  June? of 1999 at the start of SWOS.  He was SURFLANT then, IIRC ...  painful to listen, even then.

Outlaw Mike said...

Who's CJCS?

Anonymous said...

True, but my iphone auto corrected and I didn't catch it until after.  I figured I'd draw out the smart a$$ in the group and let it ride. :)  

LT B said...

Clearly he/she/shim hasn't deployed.  Certainly not downrange.  Professional?  You betcha, but are there jokes, a give and take and a certain sense of humor amongst each of us out there?  They have tried to tamp down on it since we've let females out there w/ us because they take the stuff personally.  If you can't give and take, play the dozens, take a joke, you will not be accepted, usually.  There are exceptions, but sarcasm, and biting humor are the norm and honestly do not cut into professionalism or capability.  The hugly snugly training, however does cut into capability.

LT B said...

Yikes!!

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Troll,

Twenty-eight years of watching degenerate cowards such as yourself try to tear apart our military because they represent something you can never be.  That's what's in my service record.  And your childish "sour grapes" whining tells the Front Porch bunch everything they need to know about what you are and what you are not.

Outlaw Mike said...

'Oh, Marines... I guess that explains it all.'

You are correct. The very sentence 'Oh, Marines... I guess that explains it all.' explains it all about YOU.

cdrsalamander said...

Admiral Mullen.  Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  The most senior person in uniform.

Grumpy Old Ham said...

Looks like the LPGA is already setting that precedent, more or less:

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/120110-lpga-changes-gender-requirement

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Sal,

Glad you didn't say "Sailor".  Because Mullen ceased being that some time ago.  He is the senior political hack in uniform who has his nose in his political benefactors' a$$es at best, and at worst is an arrogant and self-righteous political dilletante who cares far more to impose his personal views on the services he is trusted to lead than to make sure those services remain as combat capable as the national treasure spent on them can keep them. 

Mullen's comments that people who hesitate to serve openly with Gays can "fins another job" should get his non-comnat ass transferred to a squad in 5th Marines for the next year in Afghanistan, walking patrols in Helmand next to those whose service and whose opinions he is so quick to denigrate. 

If he comes back, he will likely have a changed opinion.  If he doesn't, his loss is not as big as an 0311 Lance Corporal.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span>Sal,  
 
Glad you didn't say "Sailor".  Because Mullen ceased being that some time ago.  He is the senior political hack in uniform who has his nose in his political benefactors' a$$es at best, and at worst is an arrogant and self-righteous political dilletante who cares far more to impose his personal views on the services he is trusted to lead than to make sure those services remain as combat capable as the national treasure spent on them can keep them.   
 
Mullen's comments that people who hesitate to serve openly with Gays can "find another job" should get his non-comnat ass transferred to a squad in 5th Marines for the next year in Afghanistan, walking patrols in Helmand next to those whose service and whose opinions (Combat Arms soldiers and Marines) he is so quick to denigrate.   
 
If he comes back, he will likely have a changed opinion.  If he doesn't, his loss is not as big as an 0311 Lance Corporal.</span>

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span><span>Sal,    
   
Glad you didn't say "Sailor".  Because Mullen ceased being that some time ago.  He is the senior political hack in uniform who has his nose in his political benefactors' a$es at best, and at worst is an arrogant and self-righteous political dilletante who cares far more to impose his personal views on the services he is trusted to lead than to make sure those services remain as combat capable as the national treasure spent on them can keep them.     
   
Mullen's comments that people who hesitate to serve openly with Gays can "find another job" should get his non-combat ass transferred to a squad in 5th Marines for the next year in Afghanistan, walking patrols in Helmand next to those whose service and whose opinions (Combat Arms soldiers and Marines) he is so quick to denigrate.     
   
If he comes back, he will likely have a changed opinion.  If he doesn't, his loss is not as big as an 0311 Lance Corporal.</span></span>

UltimaRatioRegis said...

<span><span><span>Sal,      
     
Glad you didn't say "Sailor".  Because Mullen ceased being that some time ago.  He is the senior political hack in uniform who has his nose in his political benefactors' a$$es at best, and at worst is an arrogant and self-righteous political dilletante who cares far more to impose his personal views on the services he is trusted to lead than to make sure those services remain as combat capable as the national treasure spent on them can keep them.       
     
Mullen's comments that people who hesitate to serve openly with Gays can "find another job" should get his non-combat ass transferred to a squad in 5th Marines for the next year in Afghanistan, walking patrols in Helmand next to those whose service and whose opinions (Combat Arms soldiers and Marines) he is so quick to denigrate.       
     
If he comes back, he will likely have a changed opinion.  If he doesn't, his loss is not as big as an 0311 Lance Corporal.</span></span></span>

cdrsalamander said...

I'm glad you noticed my choice of words. 

Actus Rhesus said...

Actually, I'd love it if they got rid of the wives club and dependent Tricare.

Then maybe a. the wives would have to find something better to do than henpeck about which of the female officers were trying to sleep with their precious husbands.  (sorry, hon.  Got my own, and yours doesn't meet my standards anyway) and b. I might be able to be seen by a real doctor for once since thanks to the Feres doctrine, dependents can sue, which means the hospitals won't let them be seen by anything less than a PA, which means all my care is done by the IDC.

Abolish it all, I say!

Also, I will go on record now and say that any time I see a reserved parking space for "mothers with children" or "Ombudsman" I park in it on principle.  

And while I'm on the soapbox, why does a stay at home spouse get a reserved parking space, but there's no spot for "E-4 and below in uniform"? That's the kid that needs the fast access.  And what happened to the commissary head of the line privileges for uniformed personnel between 1100 and 1300?

LT B said...

Oorah! URR 

Salty Gator said...

no comments, Julie?

Salty Gator said...

no comments, Julie?

Anonymous said...

Yeah Christmas parties are revolting with all those drunk straight people kissing each other.  Ridiculous, why can't they keep their private lives private?

Anonymous said...

Rusty, I've been in the military, deployable, and deployed.  Thanks for your assumptions, we all know what happens when you assume.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry that you won't be able to use the word "fag" in the office anymore.  If you have to use derogatory language in the office, I can't believe you haven't been brought up on charges for "bitch" "cunt" or "nigger."  No targeted derogatory slang was tolerated in my units.  I guess we were just more professional.

Anonymous said...

No I just enjoy using people's words against them.  It's fun.

Stu said...

Who says you can't use "fag".  I'll call anyone a bundle of stick if I want to. 

Anonymous said...

Something I can never be?  I already was, I just have a higher standard of performance than you do.  You want to insult people, don't be surprised when you get insulted back.  You have no idea who or what I am, I do enjoy the imagination coming from this board though, it just demonstrates that you fill in attributes that you don't know or understand to support whatever view point you want. Your logic train is "Oh, they never served, so they couldn't understand.... oh, they served, but not in combat, oh, they served in combat, well it couldn't have been real combat, oh, it was real combat, oh then they must just be weak."  Pathetic.

It's hilarious to watch people make ad hominem assaults on my character or service instead of dealing the position put forward.  It shows a weak mind, and a position based on fear.  The constant reference to the "front porch" gaggle that you rely upon to back your bigoted opinions is hilarious.  You can't justify them based on shared values like honesty, integrity, or equal opportunity, so you justify your bigotry on other people believing the same thing.  Good luck with that, at some point you have to have principles, not just a group that all believes the same thing.  When sal starts passing round cups of Kool aid on that front porch, think for yourself before you drink.

Anonymous said...

OLM, he earned that when he impugned my service without sharing his:

<span><span>UltimaRatioRegis</span> 
<span>So tell us, Guest, what is your service record that allows you to speak so authoritatively about obligation?</span></span>

Stu said...

Whether you like it or not "guest," most people find homosexuality abnormal and really don't want to be exposed to it.  If this were really all about "tolerance" most homosexuals would understand this and assimilate accordingly as if they actually were part of the unit.  Kind of like what happens with DADT. 

However, this is really about forced acceptance of homosexuality by society as a whole so instead we are going to see if out and about in all of it's flaming glory to include command sponsored events like Christmas parties and such.  In response, most simply will not attend these functions and in the end they will simply dissapear.  So in the end, everyone will simply remain "private" as you desire.

But I'll help you even further.  I'll simply leave the military as Admiral Mullen wants me to do. 

Stu said...

"Guest,"

Your continued coyness really undermines your sentiments.  But do what you want. 

C-dore 14 said...

LT B, Like the phrase from those Bud Light commercials..."Here we go!"

C-dore 14 said...

AR, At one of the bases that I frequent they removed the "SOY/SOQ" signs to put in the ones for the Ombudsman.

LT B said...

Troll food is cheap these days. :)

Anonymous said...

Sal doesn't pass Kool Aid unless it's spiked with moonshine...he be a redneck like me.

CDR Salamander said...

Ummm .... I'm with Bert.

Phil said...

The irony is that both he and Gates will be "quitting" long before any of this is implemented (if it is repealed).

andrewdb said...

Outlaw Mike - see the bottom of page 6 of the Report for the 89/84% numbers.  The full report is available at the link I posted in this thread yesterday.

Andrewdb

andrewdb said...

<span>Outlaw Mike - see the bottom of page 6 of the Report for the 89/84% numbers.  The full report is available at the link I posted in this thread yesterday.  That page will also footnote you to the specific questions and cross-tabs in the back-up materials also availabe at that link.
 
Andrewdb</span>

andrewdb said...

He hardly needs me to rise to his defense, but URR's bio at the USNI blog reads in part "a Reserve Marine Lieutenant Colonel, an Artillery officer with 22 years of service."  His personal experience is much further towards to tip of the spear than mine (being a staff weenie and all), although perhaps not your own.  

I don't agree with URR on this subject, based in part on the many outstanding gay Marines and other servicemembers I know who have deployed to both Iraq and AFG multiple times in recent years, but I am still looking forward to doing jello shots with him next month when he is out here in San Diego (at least that's what our host says we're doing at the WEST Conference).

LT B said...

Once again...  Ligten up Francis

Southern Air Pirate said...

Note from Kettle to Pot: Black!

"It's hilarious to watch people make ad hominem assaults on my character or service instead of dealing the position put forward.  It shows a weak mind, and a position based on fear."

"<span><span>So tell us, Regis, what is your service record that allows you to speak so authoritatively about </span><span>"His wee wee, YOUR bung hole, and him."?  Oh, Marines... I guess that explains it all."</span></span>
<span><span></span></span>
<span><span>Hmm, there is a word for how those two quotes don't interact....it begins with an H and and ends in an L</span></span>
<span><span></span></span>
<span><span></span></span>

Southern Air Pirate said...

Double standards exsist in the diversity bully world. As someone who has stood at a Captain's Mast as a witness in defense of a young lady that was charged for using the word nigger by a CPO. I saw spoke up to both my XO and my CO about how that same CPO use to go through the ship's gym and passageways bebopping to rap music signing same said words (since they were the lyrics) and even after junior personnel complained via offical CMEO reps only to see the command downplay it. Now to see a young lady parodying same said music while BSing in the workspace, the air of double standards rose a holy stink. She lost at the local level and then appealed to CAG. Who over turned it and made everyone in our command sit thorugh death by PPT diveristy training. Also taught during that non-fly day out to sea was the rule the ship had about no loud music and no offensive music to be played, sung, or otherwise let out loud while in the confines of the ship.

Southern Air Pirate said...

Ditto for the cunt word. I watched a fight break out tween a PO1 and a PO2 over the usage of the word cunt while sitting in the Sandbox drinking beers. Basically the PO1 (a woman) used the word cunt to describe the PO2's (a woman) persona and her morals. Thing got a little heated and seperation occured. The FCPOA that was there basically got things under controlled and told them both that since mass quanties of San Miguel was involved, the penalies were off-setting. Go to bed and don't stew about it. Instead this PO1 went up wrote up a charge sheet and carpet bombed the CPO mess, CO, XO, CMC, CMEO, and everyone else. In the end when it got to the CO's side, he too ruled offsetting pentalies and told them both they had to teach a lesson on diversity together and how words affect others too the whole command a paygrade at a time. The final just dessert if you view this way was that when evals rolled around the PO1 got hit in her EO block with a 2.0. The write up in the back gave verbage as to why the hit as well. Some one didn't screen for CPO that cycle.  

Jay said...

I find Sen McCain's comments sad, he used to be a hero. Not so anymore...I hope he lives to publicly regret his opposition to repeal, and to apologize to our gay service members.

Jay said...

Oh URR, lol your trash talk...when do you retire again?

sid said...

Being "GAY" -as opposed to merely liking someone of like chromosonal makeup- is <span>ALL </span>about letting everyone KNOW how "Proud" you are of whom and how you do...

In PUBLIC

Show me a Gay Pride parade that is even remotley Kristen friendly.

There is no getting around the essence (sorry for the pun) of the movement.

sid said...

Watched an extended bit of CSPAN...The tenor and tone taken in full during those hearings does not match how its all being spun in the media.

sid said...

<span>They're tweets not tweeds.  CDR is not talking about his jacket.</span>

Well, I lifted this off GQ.com....

Ain't my cuppa tea, but some may find it...."compelling"

sobersubmrnr said...

*sniff sniff* I smell Sandcrab again....

Guest, seeing as I stuck around for twenty-four years, I believe I'm qualified to speak for those who worked their tails off for four and then got out. The question is, are you qualified to judge them?

sobersubmrnr said...

<span>"You have no idea who or what I am..."</span>

I doubt anyone here cares. I certainly don't.

Before you whine about ad hominem attacks, you really should examine yourself. You get slapped around not as much for what you say as for the way you say it.

Casey Tompkins said...

True, dat! Time for the mind bleach.

LT B said...

A lot of AF deployments ARE gay. :) Kadena being considered a deployment for instance.

Anonymous said...

LT B, Whatever keeps bringing you back.  I'm glad you got a nice dinner.

Anonymous said...

Sober, if that's the criteria for being qualified to speak on a military issue, you should shut up and listen to the CJCS.  You aren't qualified to judge him by your own measures.

LT B said...

Rainbow Warrior,

I come here as a regular on the front porch, not just to argue good touch/bad touch wrt DADT.

Salty Gator said...

like I've always said:  the 1960s civil rights movement featured many protests, but black folks weren't dressing like snoop dogg to go to those.  they put on their sunday best, really gussied it up, and showed people that they deserve to be treated equal and that they are ladies and gentlemen.  Won over america by showing they are "nothing to be feared, and equal."

What does the gay rights community do?  They protest with flamboyant men in pink underwear shouting "we're here, we're queer, we're not going anywhere, get used to it."  This makes people freak out.

Southern Air Pirate said...

mmmm

andrewdb said...

Sid -

Out of respect for Kristen, I'll refrain from posting links to straight people at Mardi Gras.  Are you sure you want to hold yourself our as an expert on what is "gay"?

andrewdb said...

Gator -

Don't fall for the media spin.  There could be an entire parade of marching actuaries, and the evening news would show the one outrageous picture.  When I've lobbied on The Hill, I and the rest of us were all wearing boring (but sharp and stylish) business wear.

We did end up one year following the families of the MN NG who were there to protest their sservicemember's mistreatment (they had their deployment extended several times, got as far as Q8 and got sent back in-country, ultimately ended up 749 days on active duty - recall 750 days is the trigger for a lot of benefits).  It was great fun to be the next group to meet with the staffers and tell them we wanted to talk about people who wanted to serve but couldn't!

USAF Mike said...

Sure you want to use the civil rights movement as a template?  Showing that they were "nothing to be feared, and equal" got them jack shit.  It took an executive order (in the case of the military) and several court cases (in the case of schools and other institutions) to get what they wanted...going the legislative route (as many seem to advocate for regarding repealing DADT) got them jack because there were plenty of bigots who were absolutely set in their ways and who would not have changed their opinion regarding the equality of persons of color no matter how "nonthreatening" they were.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Equating behaviors with skin color.  Fail.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Jay,

When I am damned good and ready.  Or when you kick my ass.  Either one.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

When it comes to group or individual self-definition, apparently what is good for the goose is strictly verboten for the gander.

USAF Mike said...

Equating?  Try again.  I was simply pointing out that Salty Gator's recollection of the civil rights movement is quite incorrect...showing America that they were "nothing to be feared" got them jack.  It took an executive order and cases in court overturning the "WILL OF THE PEOPLE."

Unless of course you meant that the simple act of being gay is just a behavior that you can change, in which case I don't know what to say to you.

USAF Mike said...

Most people?  Is that most people under or over the age of 30?  Just because you personally and some of those of your age think homosexuality is abnormal and don't want to be exposed to it doesn't mean that you are representative of America, or even of the U.S. military.

And I'd be happy to continue DADT, provided it was extended to straight people as well.  Less drama, nobody's wife acting like she's wearing her husband's rank, no dependents sucking away all the military doctors resulting in AD personnel waiting for hours.  I'm good with that.  But somehow I don't think that's quite what you had in mind.

Stu said...

Most people as in MOST people.

It's abnormal.  

cdrsalamander said...

Andrew, 
Remind me not to get in an argument with you.

USAF Mike said...

http://gothamist.com/attachments/jen/2006_06_gaypride2.jpg

The horror, balloons!!!!! (Completely work/Kristen safe)

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2009/1316_gay_pride_dublin_2009.jpg

Not exactly my cup of tea, but everyone there looks dressed pretty normal to me (completely work/Kristen safe)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GIchwvJ-aNk/Sja_fVS0VZI/AAAAAAAAINE/EnSlJZijX_o/s400/Chelsea+Handler+West+Hollywood+gay+pride+parade+2009.JPG

Now, that one is a little risque...it features a female...wearing...a...SKIRT!!  I know, how immodest, I think it might even be a smidge above her knee (gasp!) (completely work/Kristen safe)

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

Stu said...

Most people as in MOST people.

Homosexuality is by all standards abnormal.  This is fact.  Your issue is to what extent society should accept this abnormality.  Indeed, the 30 and below crowd may be more willing to accept such things but that is hardly a measure of what is right, just and truthful anymore than we should base the guiding principles of this country on high schoolers only.  

If you want tolerance for you deviance, then that is one thing.  Do whatever you want in your bedroom to whomever, whatever or even yourself but keep it to yourself.  And while you are at it, don't make the ridiculous claim that such lifestyles are equivalent to a man and woman, in marriage, who are raising a family and supporting the building of society by raising the next generation in generally the best possible environment.

And what are you worried about anyway.  I'm happy to get out before the military self-destructs over this diversity nonsense.  It's going to be really interesting when all of the "protected classes" begin to turn on each other for most protected status.  Looks like it has already begun.  

Stu said...

"<span>Unless of course you meant that the simple act of being gay is just a behavior that you can change, in which case I don't know what to say to you."</span>
-----------------------------
No one has to engage in homosexual acts unless of course you mean that those with homosexual tendencies can't control themselves.  

USAF Mike said...

Show me one non-religious based standard that has homosexuality being abnormal.  Go on, I'll wait.  And if you want to argue based on religion, we can do that too...I anxiously await your protests to get shellfish removed from all military dining facilities.

Gallup polls (among many others) beg to disagree with you regarding "MOST" people.  Acceptance of those deviant gheys have risen and continues to rise.  But hey, since acceptance of teh gheys is not "right, just, and truthful" guess I should just resign my commission now, since I'm obviously unfit to be an officer.

And if you really think that a man and a woman have a lock on the best possible environment for raising a child, you really don't have a clue.  Ward Cleaver never existed...if he had, he probably would've been a philandering alcoholic while June was probably hooked on pills.

USAF Mike said...

Haha, knew that one was coming.  So...let me get this straight.  Homosexuals are a bunch of out of control sex fanatics that, if allowed openly into the armed forces (nevermind that they're already in), would destroy readiness overnight in their desire to have sex with everyone and everything, while heterosexuals are a bunch of straight laced do gooding chivalrous white knights that would NEVER act out of control or otherwise disrupt readiness through their sexual behavior.

Dude, seriously?  Did you just walk off of the set of Leave it to Beaver or something?

Stu said...

Read again what I said.  Your kneejerk response missed it entirely.  

Dude, seriously?  Did you just get out of college?

Salty Gator said...

American Psychological Association in DSM-1-IV until the Text Revision of the 1990s that re-classified it as a lifestyle choice due to political pressure and the not-so-irrelevant strong lesbian contingent of psychologists and psychiatrists.  

Salty Gator said...

Mike you are a simpleton who doesn't know history.  What made the courts rule the way they did?  It took popular sentiment across most of the country.  Good people got tired of watching good folks get thrashed in the street, pounded at the counters and fire hosed /sicked on by police dogs.  Legislation such as the Civil Rights Act came by way of popular sentiment.  GANDHI's movement was all about pretty much being like Jesus--turn the other cheek, absorb the pain.  Eventually good people will step in and prevent you from taking the body shots.  The reason?  Most people are inherently good.  But this strategy only works if you believe in your countrymen to do the right thing.  MARTIN LUTHER KING DID.  SO DO NOT REWRITE HISTORY, ZOOMIE. 

Salty Gator said...

Point taken:  don't waste your time trying to argue with a zoomie.  Go back to your air conditioned, fully catered luxury box.

Salty Gator said...

Whenever vs Never.  I like it.

Salty Gator said...

Hey dude, it's the military.  We're militant about everything, including our sexuality.  Cult of Personality.  Work hard, play hard, fight hard, love hard, die hard.
And don't tell me that it's not a big deal that we'll end up having to scrap some traditions like Navy Ball and or Marine Corps Birthday Ball because our men aren't going to want to share the dance floor with two dudes grinding it out.  We're not training guys to be life coaches or sensitive people.  We're not training them for corporate offices.  We're training them, especially the combat arms folks, to go into harms way, close on the enemy and kill them.  Most of our young capable men are alpha heterosexuals.  That is a FACT.  We want them to be militant and at the tip of the spear about EVERYTHING, and now we're going to say well dial it down a bit gentlemen because we don't want you to offend anyone with your killer alpha male ways.  That is brilliant, especially in the middle of a global war.

Salty Gator said...

"Any of you homos touch me.......and I'll kill you." --Stripes

Salty Gator said...

The survey was OPTIONAL and therefore does not represent an ACCURATE sampling of the fighting force.  If I presented this crapola to my political statistics and polling class back at GW I would have been crucified.

Salty Gator said...

This is actually why DoD secretly wants it to be repealed by Congress and not the Courts.  If the Courts state that it is a constitutional right to serve, then the DoD cannot turn down any able bodied altered / transgendered male or female.

Salty Gator said...

Whatever the politics, we can all agree about beer and jello shots.

Salty Gator said...

I help to coach special olympics track as a volunteer and resent your picture.  It takes more heart for them to overcome their challenges and compete than it does for you to jump in your modern jet which flies itself and takes you along for the ride.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

"<span>So...let me get this straight."</span>

Yet, you seem to constantly be defending those who are anything but.

Salty Gator said...

SAL, how about STRIKE ONE?

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Yes, Guest, I am sure you won the Medal of Honor, and probably some other awards for combat courage. 

Please, accept my sincere apology for not quickly genuflecting. 

I have no idea who you are as an individual, but I do recognize the pack of lemmings you are a part of.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Good Lord, Andrew.  I will begin saving bail money now for San Diego then! 8-)

UltimaRatioRegis said...

Troll/Guest,

My question was appropriate following your self-righteous and high-handed lecture about who and what you believed defined "good teammates".   As if a foot patrol in Helmand or Ramadi is pickup basketball.

USAF Mike said...

SAP is a maintainer...don't think he's doing much flying unless he's lucky enough to get an incentive ride (does the Navy even have those?)

So to quote Lt B above (who was quoting an excellent movie)...lighten up, Francis.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

What she said....

USAF Mike said...

If there was a golf clap emoticon, I'd put it here.  Well played, sir.

USAF Mike said...

Heh, not much air conditioning or catering out on the flight line or in the bomb dump...I know we do have some AGE heaters but they don't really do much when it's -30.  You tell me what base that's at and it just went to the top of my ADP, though.

USAF Mike said...

No argument from me there...although in our defense most of us (on the Mx side at least) roll our eyes at that as hard as you do.

Southern Air Pirate said...

Gator,

My intention wasn't to insult those who participate, help, or judge the Special Olympics. Rather it was an attempt to express an Op-ed in a quick statement about "Guest" and his own bigoted, hypocritical, logical fallacies. I am sorry I insulted you. I should have posted this image instead to express my feelings about the name calling and fire-bombing that Lt B and "Guest" were doing near the end of last night.

[img]http://www.villagephotos.com/utils/image.aspx?u=2005-9\1081473\wariningpostertrolls.jpg[/img]

Southern Air Pirate said...

Gator,

My intention wasn't to insult the Special Olympics, but try and express a quick op-ed about how I was feeling with regards to the bigoted, hypocritical, and logical fallacy filled arguements that "Guest" was offering to LT B (and others of the front porch) in regards to DADT and the potential that diversity bullies will take this to beat over the head of the troopers the new messages about accepting LGBT crowd.
I had this picture, http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-9/1081473/wariningpostertrolls.jpg, and was having a problem getting it posted right.

andrewdb said...

Gator - if the courts rule because the people come around on something, DADT should be repealed.  The polls, as recent as ;ast Saturday, show 69% of the American public in favor of repeal.  See here:  http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20024623-503544.html  This is pretty consistent with the other polling on this subject in recent years.  It is interesting to see the Pentagon seemingly buy-in to repeal.  Their survey proved to them what we had been telling them for years - the troops generally don't care.

andrewdb said...

Gator - PS

As for your comment about MLK, both Mrs. Loving and Coretta Scott King (may both of them rest in peace) support _gay marriage_ for goodness sake. 

See here:  http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-24-king-marriage_x.htm

and here:  http://www.dallasvoice.com/mildred-loving-becomes-our-ally-in-gay-marriage-fight-1022796.html

andrewdb said...

The survey size was 100,000+.  A nationwide political poll is lucky to have 1,000.  If you tried to use that at GW they would just want to know how to get that kind of budget for a social science survey.

As for being voluntary, so what?  Since you can (still!) be thrown out if someone thinks you are gay, the standing advice was NOT to take the survey if you were "that way."  Remember the kurfufle when one of the Service Secretaries said he wouldn't throw someone out if they outed themselves to him during this process? - he had to back down later the same week since it is a LAW and he couldn't promise not to follow it. 

Remember too, the questions were roundly criticized at the time as being biased _against repeal_ when they were announced/leaked earlier this year. 

andrewdb said...

Gator - The APA removed homosexuality from their list in _1975_, so your only off by a couple of decades.