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72 comments:
Snerk!
Reading decision points now. Really becoming more convinced that history will tell a much kinder tale of the W.
Snort!
AR,
It would seem that is quite possible especially since his detractors currently in the White House seem to have found that governing take more than hope and some tough decisions made during the Bush presidency have been maintained.
Right, Skippy,
Which is why Obama immediately closed Guantanamo, has had so many successful trials of terrorists in US civilian courts, immediately withdrew from Iraq, ended the war in Afghanistan, repealed the PATRIOT Act, and made it so Islamic extremists no longer wish to destroy America and kill Americans.
Face it, you are a far-left Bush-hating shill who, with the opinions of the mypoic and self-serving mainstream media, refuses to recognize anything positive about Bush or his presidency.
Ruined the economy? Right. Examine where we were when the Democratic Congress was elected in 2006. Spirit of the law? Right. Talk to me of Eric Holder and ACORN.
Indecently troubled by the cost in Iraq? Uh huh. Note Michelle Anoinette's unwillingness to visit Landstuhl in her recent taxpayer-funded European spree, and BHO's absence this Veterans' Day, where he was instead on his knees in Asia begging for support for his disastrous fiscal and monetary policies. For which he was publicly rebuffed.
Skippy, when a President has hard decisions to make and his first priority is the safety of the citizens his is President to, he makes those hard decisions and then lives with them. I don't give a rats ass about waterboarding assholes like those two, I'd have done lot's worse and more if I didn't get the answers I needed to keep people like you and me free of danger.
The only problem I have with Mr. Bush is not beating on the Democrats when he had a bully pulpit to do so. He should have done as many press confrences and interviews as needed to shine the light on crap like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
as much as it pains me I will remind the fingerpointing done at Clinton by Bush administration after 9/11...
Not fair, Ewok... 7 months into the administration with 8 years of damage to our intel infrastructure.... not a fair comparison at all.
Running for office and running your mouth = easy
Running a country = not so easy
Totally fair - your response shows your bais.
Ewok, let me walk you back. Clinton leaves office telling Bush that Osama is #1 National Security problem, but let him walk multiple times instead of sending guys in their to get him. Bush never came out and said "blame clinton." He said "we had opportunities in the past to get him and we did not."
Not the same thing as pre-programming your teleprompter to say "BLAME BUSH" every five seconds.
It's unfortunate the people can't realize it takes more than two years to clean up the pile of poo the previous administration left. And having a Senate Minority Leader state, "My number one goal is to prevent President Obama from being reelected" shows the Republicans aren't looking to fix the country's problems.
It's not a zero sum game. Just because one loses doesn't mean the other wins. In the current environment we are all losing.
<span>It's unfortunate people can't realize it takes more than two years to clean up the pile of poo the previous administration left. And having a Senate Minority Leader state, "My number one goal is to prevent President Obama from being reelected" shows the Republicans aren't looking to fix the country's problems.
It's not a zero sum game. Just because one loses doesn't mean the other wins. In the current environment we are all losing.</span>
URR, right on. Everyone seems to forget that the democrats have had Congress now for 4 years. Not 2. 4. So you OWN, just like BUSH OWNS, the final two years of his presidency.
preventing Barack Obama from being elected won't make things better, but will keep them from getting exponentially worse.
But that is how American Politics has been running for at least the last 35 years. Since at least the mid-terms of the second Regan Admin. Those that lived on the opposite of the aisle (for both major political theories) had made it all about "Blame the other guy" instead of trying to work hard and make any gains from the opposing force an opening for you to push some of your agenda in. It wasn't Karl Rove or any other neo-con that started this. Really there are others on both side way earlier then Karl Rove who had that "Blame the other guy". I have been reading some Bill Buckley recently and see he had a better way of discussion. That seemed to me one being, "Here is where your wrong.... and .... and ..." and then in the end he would still be civil and do "Thank you very much, I don't agree with you, but it has been very interesting talking with you." There wasn't any of this storming off the set, or loud shouting, or anything screaming sexual inneduo about an opposing political group.
Also strangely enough for as much as I have an issue with Harry Truman at times with his politics. He was still classy, basically saying that anything that went wrong laid at his feet. Very few presidents since then have been willing to do stand like that. That goes with the US Navy's current buzz words of Honor, Courage, Committement.
Oh and a few people don't realize that it does take more then two years to fix the previous issues from the previous administration, is mainly cause the US education is failing our students in more then the basics of how the American government is supposed to work. That is When a new admin walks in they are truly running on the last two budgets that were passed during the previous administration. Ditto with over who controls the purse strings, that is the senate, and the only thing the executive department is tasked to do is follow the law (budget) that is passed by the Senate. The final failing is that no where in the government can it magically wave a wand and create jobs. It doesn't matter how many budgets or other things it passes, that just doesn't instantly become jobs on the work force front. Rather the most the government can do is create conditions where jobs could be created, that is through regulations, taxes (or lack there of), and other forms of influence. If you really want to see some modern witchcraft that people believe in, go and sit through an set of economic classes at a modern 4 yr university. All you hear is "It should work this way, but...." or "The theory is..." it isn't a science at all, but rather some good ol'tea leave reading.
So guest, you are telling us on the one hand that it takes longer than two years to clean up the "poo" from the previous administration, but hesitate not one second to blame Bush for the failures of the Clinton administration to bring down bin Laden when they had him dead to rights, or for the dismantling of our intelligence apparatus and military as a part of the "peace dividend". Then, the "poo" that was left by Barney Frank (Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac) and Dood (Senate Banking Cmte) as committee chairs since 2006 you alkso blame on Bush?
Yet, you refuse to place any sort of responsiblity on Obama or his far left cabal for their failures and poor decisions during the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. Interesting. A study in cognitive dissonance, for sure.
Maybe it's everyone in power's fault for sucking so badly at what they do, for being corrupt, and for letting their counterpart elites off the hook when they should be crushing them.
Unequivocally stating that there are weapons of mass destruction where there are not.
Consequence: war, billions of dollars flushed down the toilet, thousands of Americans dead, and over a hundred thousand Iraqis dead. People fired for being completely wrong: zero, people in federal penitentiaries for being so bad at their jobs that over a hundred thousand people are dead: zero.
Securitizing bad mortgages and dragging down the world economy for stupidity and greed.
Consequences: world economic near collapse. Wall Street CEOs in prison: zero. Companies bailed out: plenty. Wall Street CEOs given bonuses for being incomptetent: lots.
Continue ad-infinitum. Political contributions grease the skids so regulators are stymied and baddies pollute your air, water, and soil, poison your food, sell you dangerous or harmful goods, bad investments, bad mortgages, crap houses, etc.
None are without blame. Both parties are pathetically in the pockets of those who would do the American people harm, steal, pollute, profit from war, etc.
Mitch McConnell and Massey Mines. Christ Dodd and the Wall Street bankers. Shining examples of complete corruption on both sides of the aisle. These pairs can be repeated with most every member of both parties on both sides of the aisle.
No use blaming one or the other. They both suck. Neither gives a damn about America or the American people. If they did we wouldn't be where we are now. Lousy economy in a decade long war halfway across the world. If they gave a damn and were competent, we would have a good economy and we would have won the war long ago. Guck these fuys.
<span>So guest, you are telling us on the one hand that it takes longer than two years to clean up the "poo" from the previous administration, but hesitate not one second to blame Bush for 9/11 and the failures of the Clinton administration to bring down bin Laden when they had him dead to rights, or for the dismantling of our intelligence apparatus and military as a part of the "peace dividend". Then, the "poo" that was left by Barney Frank (Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac) and Dood (Senate Banking Cmte) as committee chairs since 2006 you alkso blame on Bush?
Yet, you refuse to place any sort of responsiblity on Obama or his far left cabal for their failures and poor decisions during the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. Interesting. A study in cognitive dissonance, for sure.</span>
quote: <span>Clinton leaves office telling Bush that Osama is #1 National Security problem</span>
<span>but let him walk multiple times instead of sending guys in their to get him. </span>
...and if he did act he would be probably accused of making US involved in dirty, unnecessary war, and trying to get the public opinion away from Monicagate...
And Bush for over half year chased the ghosts of Chinese support for Clinton campaign... until reality struck.
My take on Bush years?:
The good - AFG initial campaign and blitzkrieg in Iraq.
The bad - the idea that Iraq will manage itself after deposing Saddam. Oh and starting the deficit spree...
The ugly - getting portrayed as dumb oil industry cowboy.
My take on Obama years so far?
The good - getting the surge in AFG going, generally continuing realistic security policy with sound team of Gates, Petreus and co., wanting to modernise US healthcare
The bad - setting the deadlines in AFG, botching own healthcare modernisation program, oh, and continuing the deficit spree...
The ugly - getting portrayed as islamocommunazimason - I bet someone somewhere tried to make him Jew too, and I bet someone was stupid enough to believe it too...
Well, IMHO visiting India is crucial in getting counterbalance to China, and in having a leverage over Pakistan that is becoming more of a problem than a help in AFG. I am hoping some discreet agreements were reached. That would be more important than demonstrating "oh how patriotic I am on a vets day!"
As I recall Sudanese were going to give him to Clinton.
ewok, I'm not going to argue those points. interesting writeup.
Regis,
Clinton left us in two wars, in the midst of an economic disaster, and a increasingly worse deficit? Wow, you must be rewriting history with a broad tipped sharpie.
Too bad Presidents forget that they swear an oath to protect the Constitution, not people.
Clinton left us a war we could have nipped in the bud, a dismantled intelligence apparatus, and a military sliced to ribbons against the advice of his security advisors.
Increasingly worse deficit? Comparing Obama's deficit to Bush's is like telling me there is no difference between Charles Manson and a jaywalker, because they both broke the law.
Again, where was the economy at the beginning of the 2006 congress, when the Dems took the committee chairs in both houses?
As I have tried many times to tell Liberals. Once you take the watch it is yours for better or worse. If it was so horrible he could have decided not to take the watch. Once that log is signed over to you it's YOUR WATCH.
One thing Bush's policies did accomplish though-the largest transfer of wealth in US history from many Americans to the fewest.
Yeah, I'm amazed that Bush doesn't blame Clinton for the deficit that he inherited too. Dismantled intel apparatus that told Bush about the threat. Yeah, that seems like a credible allegation. Oh wait, the truth doesn't matter to you, it's all about spin.
A shame that Saddam actively worked to make people think he had WMDs and we believed him.
Yup...us, and the Brits and the French and the Germans... Got to wonder what was on all those trucks that went to Syria and Iran just before we went in.
(pictures the president in the Oval Office....) "Well, I don't see where flying three jets into buildings and killing thousands of citizens is against the Constitution...guess it's OK".
Brilliant, just brilliant. You think the oath means the President isn't supposed to also protect the freakin' PEOPLE, you TOOL?
Unless the alternative is Palin and then you will see how bad it REALLY can get.
The airplanes, too, Byron, as "humanitarian aid" for the 2002 quake in Damascus. Except none of the IRC saw a speck of Iraqi humanitarian aid.
But hey, I am sure GWB made it all up and convinced MI5, and the Mossad, and even the UN.
At least Palin will not appoint self-described communists to run our government.
I am amazed you complain about the deficit. After all, your boy put us in a $1.6 trillion hole in a single FY. Now THAT is talent.
So, you are sticking to your guns that Obama gets an unlimited pass for his entire administration, but Bush is responsible for everything in his two beginning on Day 1.
Spin? Hell, you're a DJ.
Back off "guest". The reasons behind the sucker punch of 9/11 go back to Frank Church. Osama declared war on the US and made his intentions clear in mid Clinton administration. Bush derangement syndrome was about Presidential electoral politics and blame USA first. There was (and is) only one war with the Jihadis, worldwide. The rockpile and the sand box are different theaters of operations with unrelated campaigns. These are facts and basic definitions.
Blame games between political parties are counterproductive. There is a war to win.
Spin. More antispin. A few unpleasant (for leftist fools) facts. Bush pulled off a surge which turned Iraq around despite the calculated campaign of character assasination of the dem's political operatives to set up their candidate for a win in the last election. Cheny is not the antichrist and not above legitimate criticism. Ditto Rumsfeld. Ditto the Procounsel in the Bagdad green zone; and the Army four stars; and the joint staff. Afghanistan is about Nato non performance after making it a theater of economy of force.
I could write a book. A textbook. So could URR. So could most of the folks posting here. You, on the other, just parrot a playbook. Read more and type less, you might learn something. At least try to use the correct terminology.
Oh yee of such short sightedness. Do you not know that we still have an open ended engagement in the former Jugoslavic states cause of Clinton. Of course everyone has forgotten about that, the spec ops bubbas crawling through the Jugo-states looking for war criminals, cause of September 2001. We are still maintaining a camps there, there are US Army deployments there from European stationed Army units, except when they were being rotated through the 'Stan and Iraq. Where instead we have tapped our NG and Reserve units.
When you say things like that-you show that you are not serious about fixing things in this country. There has already been a term for that: <span><span><span> </span></span></span>
<span><span><span></span></span></span>
<span><span><span></span>I interview these people. They’re not basing their positions on the facts — they’re completely uninterested in the facts. They’re voting completely on what they see and hear on Fox News and afternoon talk radio, and that’s enough for them.</span></span>
<span>When you say things like that-you show that you are not serious about fixing things in this country. There has already been a term for that: <span><span><span> </span></span></span>
<span><span><span></span></span></span>
<span><span><span></span>I interview these people. They’re not basing their positions on the facts — they’re completely uninterested in the facts. They’re voting completely on what they see and hear on Fox News and afternoon talk radio, and that’s enough for them.</span></span></span>
Well, there is no polite response to that type of delusion that does not involve the "F" word so I'll not even try. Thank you though, for proving H.L. Mencken right however, " <span><span><span>For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.</span><span> "</span></span></span>
O needs to show some moral courage, though I think he lacks that ability. It takes far more courage to accept responsibility than to place blame.
You mean from the tax paying citizens of the United States to the bureacracy of the US Government and to those who don't pay taxes? Skippy, surely you know that less than 40% of the taxpayers pay 2/3 of the taxes... us people in the middle class? Yeah, we're transfering wealth all right...
I read this blog weekly and while I support a lot of goes on here, I wonder at some of the blind Bush and GOP allegiance. Anyone who argues that Iraq was a good, justifed war must not know anyone who died over there. For what? Are we safer? Can I sleep better? I agree that Obama has serious problems, but how can he be worse? Here's to a 3rd party candidate in 2012..
spek,
You might want to consider your words more carefully in a forum such as this. Some of us were over there, knew many who died, were maimed, wounded in body or spirit, or were wounded ourselves.
I doubt you could have slept any more soundly in 1951 than you could have in 1941. So by your reasoning, we shouldn't have expended the effort for World War II.
Starting the sentence with "Anybody who.." after declaring an opposing viewpoint to be "blind allegiance" is more than an bit disingenuous.
The only blind allegiance that I have to is the US Constitution and the President and the Officers of those appointed over me. I am trusted to defend the US Constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic.
I'd say that it is quite accurate.
So say we all.
Wrong. I served my country. I made my sacrifices. Maybe I didn't give as much as some here, but that is only because it was the wrong time the wrong circumstance. My grandfather, my father, my uncles all fought for this country - I admire their dedication and their courage. That doesnt preclude me from facing the obvious - Iraq is a bad situation. War for the sake of war benefits no one. Lots of people died there, and maybe I am wrong, but I don't see the benefit. I am saddened at our direction. I think Obama is a bad president, but is he better or worse than Bush? Waterboarding? Torture? Bush the first would never have allowed this. This country is supposed to be the shining light of freedom and liberty. Now we frisk toddlers in our airports...
As far as I am concerned, the ex-Yugoslavia deployments are a rare example of Clinton actually having balls to do something (although belatedly). Though I am fully aware thet Europe should have managed this by itself many years earlier.
There is more than one thing I find common in Bush the Younger and Truman. Both were landed by twist of fate in a beginning of a Long War - one Cold, one quite Hot. Both exited unpopular in a middle of dragging out limited wars. One can only wonder if in 50 years time people will acknowledge Bush as the one who laid down the foundations under the successful Islam Containment?
Byron-No. I'm talking about the non governmental transfer of wealth by which 80+% of Americans experienced a real time loss of spending and earning power while the top 1% of all wage earners garnered more than 28% of the nations wealth.
And that 40% figure about tax paying is incorrect. I proved it twice before and you can find the reasons why here.
Ewok, it's a pity the Balkans took place right before the internet age, because otherwise the muslims wouldn't have been able to make such a stellar job of their PR.
As it was, the perception was that the Serbs were the bad guys.
While in reality, what happened there was that NATO helped install the first genuine foothold of jihadism in Europe. Srebrenica, though I condemn it, was caused by something, you know.
Clinton left us Bosnia and hosed up Somalia.
really? will she increase the debt that much? will she socialize healthcare? pass tax raises while we're in the middle of a recession? bow to despots?
Yes, wrong. As in YOU are wrong. No matter what you service, or your family's service has been.
"<span>Anyone who argues that Iraq was a good, justifed war must not know anyone who died over there."</span>
That is an arrogant and ignorant statement, and disrespectful of those who served, who knew many who died. And it also is inaccurate, as the Marines I served beside understood well why we were there, and the consequences of failure and of letting Iraq fester.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/11/navy-civilians-join-gator-fleet-112210w/
I'm going hi-jack the thread for a minute to go on a monday morning rant. I'm sick and tired of our admirals. SICK. AND. TIRED. First, this crap about putting CIVMARs on amphibs, and, instead of saying "they'll have to be cool with going into combat," the CNO says "We just can't operate the ships where we used to because of the laws of war." Really? Who made you frickin King?
Then there is CJCS Mullen, how goes high and LEFT on sunday morning talk shows accusing republicans of playing politics with national security. <breathe>. Sorry to hi-jack, but I'm fuming. WAY TO SUCK!</breathe>
Or was actually IN Iraq and has their opinion formed by real world experience. Sorry spec but I really hate that leftist canard of "oh well if you were only better informed you'd see it my way". Arrogance.
Will she hire communists like Van Jones? How about that education guy who told a kid to 'use a condom' when the kid was UNDERAGE, and the man who did sh..... to the kid was a teacher?!
No way Palin associates with garbage like that.
Also - and this speaks to the bleading heart of obama, he's reputed to have hired or appointed more gays than any other past president. I don't care if they're freakin' gays, I care about one thing, can they do the job. At least Palin won't hire someone on the basis of who they're fraggin' with. Keep it in your bedroom.
Skippy:
Again, 40% of all taxpayers paying federal income taxes. That much is true.
Yes - lower income still pay FICA taxes, and sales taxes, but they do not pay much, if anything, in terms of federal taxes. I do - and I'm tired of it.
All you need to know about Democrats - I own a rental property in St. Paul. They just raised my property taxes 10.4%. Democrats own that town, and buying there was the biggest hose job I've ever experienced. I can't raise the rent, I haven't recieved a pay increase to handle that. Did they miss the memo that you don't raise taxes when the economy sucks?
People like you like ...itch when your taxes go up, but you still vote in the same people.
Is that similar to the "You weren't there so you can't know" arrogance? Of course i am ignorant of the actions and bravery on the field. Does that preclude me from questioning the cost, both in lives and dollars?
What it precludes you from, spek, is delcaring that "<span>Anyone who argues that Iraq was a good, justifed war must not know anyone who died over there."</span>
Because you DON'T know, and you weren't there.
You can have whatever goddam opinion you want and don't try to throw up the straw man that I claimed otherwise. All I said was that you have no right to make assumptions that my opinion is somehow uninformed.
Intersting, but I don't see how you can state that no one but the participants are qualified to question the validity of a war. Then wouldn't it be human nature to shine the best light on said conflict? Are you saying that I am incapable of passing judgement on the Civil War, not because I haven't reserached it thoroughly (I haven't) but because I didn't participate in it?
Rhesus - I will concede that my original post may have sounded condescending. EOS.
The difference is, I accept taxes as necessary evil to recieve the services I desire and have a right to expect from government. My taxes will go up when and if the Bush tax cuts expire. I accept that and hope the tax cuts do expire. You raise taxes when you need to balance a budget and cannot make the cuts that are required. Wait till the Catfood Commission recommendations are adopted and you lose your home mortgage deduction-your taxes will go up then.
It will of course solve the 40% don't pay federal taxes idea though. (P.S. the proper number who pay federal income tax is 62% and it rises to 89.9% when all other federal taxes are factored in).
Not saying you don't have a right to pass any judgment you desire. But to make such a declarative statement as you did is with the knowing implication that anyone who served over there MUST agree with you. Because they all likely know someone who died.
So your statement is false. Most of those I served with, the vast majority, disagree with you.
For you to insist that your statement is true is extremely arrogant. I don't go around telling everyone how they were supposed to feel about Vietnam. Wasn't there. Have my own analysis. But would never ever tell a veteran of that war that "anyone who knew someone who died must agree with me".
So quit the Navy, and run for office. Both sides play politics, it's what they do. Seems like the discussion has shifted to cutting military funding since R's won the House, but I'm sure that's just coincidence.... or something.
AR,
You KNOW you're uninformed. Hell, the entire electorate must be. Just look at the Mid-terms. They just didn't UNDERSTAND the Obama agenda. And he blames himself, because he should have realized how difficult it was to cast pearls before the swine.
So let's break out Bill Ayers, Saul Alinsky, and The Audacity of Hope, and educate ourselves. That is, if we have the moral and intellectual capacity. Which is in question.
But Mullen proves you can stay in the Navy and run for office!
"<span>There is a war to win." Good luck with that one. Do us all a favor and define "win" in quantifiable terms. </span>
<span><span>I love that people give Bush credit for the "surge" but no blame for getting us into the position that required a "surge." How many fewer causalities would there be if we did it right the first time? Here's an idea, don't invade a country without an endgame in mind. I guess it's easier to hand it off to the next guy and then blame them for the problems.</span></span>
Go write a book if you want to. Who is holding you back? You talk about using correct terminology and mention the made up phrase "Bush derangement syndrom"? People that talk about "BDS" have the same credibility as a 8 year old on the playground, so it looks like you'd probably be writing fiction.
my bad. I will report to the nearest re-education center forthwith to be sure that I don't ever make the mistake of assuming I have the ability to process information, gather life experiences, and reach my own conclusions on issues.
Hell, who let me out of the kitchen in the first place?
Dunno who let you out. But Sharia law would take care of that, wouldn't it?
You are right. I misspoke. What I should have done is word it more to the tune of "Those of us over here..." But I will say this - it's only human nature for the participants in this conflict to agree with it and its so-called objectives. Everyone wants their work and their sacrifices to have meaning, and the same with the mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters of the dead or wounded - maybe most don't want to consider it anything but the noblest of causes. but as you start to get some separation...you get more and more people saying WTF? Why? I remember the LBJ quote about sending American boys to do someone else's job....
I hate this war because of the American public's attitude towards it. We don't act like a country at war. People over there are fighting and dying and the people here care far more about American F***** Idol and what Anne Hathaway wore last night. OK, rant over. Time for a long cool bourbon.
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