Tuesday, June 29, 2010

The wages of D1 football ....

Again, tell me why a military academy needs to mimic all the sleeze of a major university? Seriously?

How many years have we warned about the integrity destroying, corrosive nature of a mindless focus on D1 football - a place where a Service Academy has no reason being?

Well; behold.

From our buds over at NavyTimes (again!)
Andrew and Phil,
The IG’s probe found that a fund set up by the academy’s business services division to cover many entertainment expenses was “an unauthorized, off-the-books account that is improper on its face. Its existence is a sham, and it was used much as in the business definition of a ‘slush fund,’ i.e., to pay for things from a pool of money with little accountability required,” IG concluded.

The fund was created in April 2007, using about $95,000 of corporate sponsorship money that the academy received for participation in the 2006 Meineke Car Care Bowl football game, the IG report said.
The wages of slush ...
A sprawling financial scandal at the Naval Academy — involving extravagant parties and a “slush fund” — was an embarrassment that helped lead to an early exit for the school’s superintendent, Navy Times has learned.

Vice Adm. Jeffrey Fowler faced “administrative action” in April as a result of a year-long Naval Inspector General’s investigation, said Rear Adm. Denny Moynihan, the Navy’s top spokesman.
...
Navy Times received a copy of the investigation report Monday afternoon after a longstanding Freedom of Information Act request. Moynihan spoke later Monday afternoon in response to queries about the report.

The IG investigation found that Naval Academy officials working under Fowler had created a “sham” bank account that helped fund things like a $10,000 party for the academy’s golf association and $1,000 worth of wine for a dinner party at the superintendent’s house.
...
• Annual spending of $400,000 or more for academy-sponsored tailgate events at football bowl games over the past six years.

• Spending $157,000 to purchase an 18-wheel tractor trailer truck for the academy’s football team.

• Spending $325,000 to purchase an antique airplane model that hangs in the front entrance to Dahlgren Hall.

• Spending $3,715,187 on video production services to create recruiting videos.

• Spending several million dollars to renovate the dining facilities of the Naval Academy Club and the Club at Greenbury Point.

Also as a result of the investigation, Robert Parsons, the academy’s deputy for finance, was given a five-day suspension without pay, Moynihan said.

A third official, whose name was not released, was also reprimanded, Moynihan said.
Some of the above is debatable on either side - but where is the alumni association or foundation? At most major universities, that is where those gifts come from - but; did you see that? I fell into the trap as well.

The United States Naval Academy is NOT a major university. It is a Service Academy where you happen to get a Bachelor's degree from.

It needs to focus on its core mission - building leaders. All else is vanity. If you want D1 football and fancy alumni facilities - then do what I did; go NROTC at a major university.

167 comments:

ShawnP said...

I can see the Tractor-Trailer as it's actually a recruiting tool if painted in Navy colors and 80 plus football players bring alot of gear to a game. Model Airplane..........that's a joke.

Seawolf said...

<p><span>I disagree with you on this one.<span>  </span>In your campaign against Navy football, I think you have over-reached a bit too zealously.</span>
</p><p><span>First, the IG’s report had little to do with the football program.<span>  </span>It was actually about an unauthorized fund for campus expenditures that coincidentally was set up using money from a bowl game appearance.<span>  </span>The majority of the funding, however, came from sources unrelated to the football program.<span>  </span>You also ignore that the expenditures which you and the Navy Times criticized were “within the discretionary authority” of the Naval Academy and any wrongful spending was “unintentional.”</span>
</p><p><span>The more fundamental question implied in your post is why does the Naval Academy exist in its current form, with all the trappings of a university.<span>  </span>The short answer is, if you didn’t, it would be almost impossible to recruit anyone to go there.<span>  </span>You might think that we should have a monastery on the Severn filled with Midshipmen monks.<span>  </span>Most 18 year olds (and those of us rational about Navy) would disagree.</span>
</p><p><span><span>I am all for reforming many of the processes.<span>  </span>But disappointment over Fowler (and Rempt, etc.)(which I share) is not justification for jettisoning the entire concept.</span></span></p>

Marine6 said...

I made extended comments over with Lex, but let me say that your first sentence hits the nail dead on.

Fowler's superintendency has been and endless expedition into a level of sleaze that was unimaginable only a few years ago.

Like almost everything else about his tenure this episode is stunning in the lack of accountability.

The Navy prominently holds commanding officers accountable and relief for cause is a fairly common occurence these days.

How did this clown survive? 

CDR Salamander said...

You need to read what is there. Follow the links. As for getting people to go there-you underestimate today's youth. I talk to them every day. Also, Yale doesn't play D1 - but they sure seem to recruit just fine. So will Annapolis.

BTW; I support Navy football-I just care for USNA more.

XBradTC said...

Because relief for cause only applies to Commanders and Captains. Flags are off limits.

San Diego Sailor said...

The purpose of this fund was to supply money without any oversight or need for accounting that would typically come with the use of appropriated funds.  The fact that, and I think this is very questionable--that the expenditures were within the discretionary authority of the USNA and that the wrongful spending was unintentional--does not excuse the use of a funding source whose seeming sole purpose was to end run federal accounting requirements.  They obviously thought they did not have enough control of the Foundation, so they needed their own piggy bank.  Not allowed, and properly punished.  Submariners spend so much time underwater and running a controlled environment that they forget that when you get to places like USNA and are dealing with 7 figures there is a little bit of public interest and accountability that comes into play.  No man is an island, and there is someone to judge all of us.  Enjoy your retirement VADM Fowler.

Anonymous said...

The rig is nicely painted.

Academy athletics - at least for the big sports where TV and future professional careers are in the mix - are more for the alumni's entertainment (and prestige) than for providing an education for a student than cannot otherwise afford the expense.  After all, if you attend the academy, your education is essentially "free."  Not to say that we Annapolitans as well as midshipmen don't benefit from the spectacle either, again in terms of entertainment.

But the problem that I have with D1 athletics at the academy is how the participants are treated compared to other midshipmen, from admissions to team tables to looking the other way - or worse - when an athlete commits an infraction.  I am lucky to reside in Annapolis and have regular, informal contact with midshipmen.  The non-athlete midshipmen are for the most part, unhappy with the situation.  IMO, they have just cause.

C-dore 14 said...

In my mind the most intriguing part about this is VADM Fowler's continued attempts to rationalize his way out of situations that would mortify a lesser man.  If one of the Naval Academy's principal missions wasn't to develop integrity in its Midshipmen this might be humorous.

C-dore 14 said...

SD Sailor, You hit the nail on the head.  Most of us recognize by the time we're LCDRs and XOs that any fund outside of normal accounting and audit channels spells trouble regardless of the benefits it brings.

sid said...

Funny how it alllll comes back to money....

Money, get away.
Get a good job with good pay and you're okay.
Money, it's a gas.
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team.

Bull Snipe said...

Sal...

In your zeal, you left out some salient points...like:  "While the inspector general ultimately concluded that these and other expenditures were “within the discretionary authority” of the Naval Academy..." and "the IG found that the allegations of wrongful spending were “substantiated; however, the violations were unintentional.”"

And lest anyone think this fund couldn't be audited, the IG's numbers explode that myth.  This isn't about football.  It's about oversight.  Spending of non-appropriated funds is a mine field.  One mine went off, and football is tangential to that at most.

Captain - Special Duty Cryptology said...

We have had CO's get fired for not separating their personal rental car expenses of less than $200 from their TAD rental car expenses (when combining TAD/Leave). How do we rationalize the nearly $1M of impropriety here?

C-dore 14 said...

Because, as XBradTC notes below, there's a different set of rules for Flags than for everyone else.  Many years ago I had a friend stripped of his promotion to O-5 because he ran an unaudited  "XO's Slush Fund" and couldn't account for a couple of hundred dollars when NCIS started looking into the matter.

Seawolf said...

<p><span><span>I read the article and just had a long talk about the IG Report with a classmate who is on the staff at Navy. </span></span>
</p><p><span><span> </span></span>
</p><p><span><span>But I think you missed my point.<span>  </span>There are very few people who choose Navy over Yale because of D1 football.<span>  </span>But they do choose Navy because it is the equivalent to a large university with the added benefit of a commission as an Ensign at graduation.</span></span>
</p><p><span><span> </span></span>
</p><p><span><span>Moreover, the focus of the IG report was definitely not the football program.<span>  </span>In fact the issue of D1 football is irrelevant to the current discussion.<span>  </span>Most of the expenditures were for "improvements" in the Yard and for recruiting.<span>  </span>Those are the same things that every big university spends money on (Yale included -- probably even more so than Navy).<span>  </span>You imply that we should not be spending money on those things at Navy.<span>  </span>If that is the case, than Navy won’t be able to compete with Yale when it comes to recruiting.<span>  </span><span>      </span></span></span>
</p>

Old Salt said...

Seawolf - it might be instructive to take a side trip down to VMI or up to Norwich to take a look at their programs before commenting on what 18 year olds interested in the military might like.  Many really do want a rigorous program that prepares them for military service.     
----
"You might think that we should have a monastery on the Severn filled with Midshipmen monks.<span>  </span>Most 18 year olds (and those of us rational about Navy) would disagree."  

Andrewdb said...

>“I don’t know the technicalities, but the concept of us doing special things for the people who work here in my mind is not a bad thing,” Fowler told the IG investigators.

Yeah, tell that to Congress. 

Cdore-14 is right, this is nothing but an attempt to get around those pesky "rules" - things like "No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law" (yes, I know this wasn't strictly Treasury money - but do you really want the Executive spending money the Congress doesn't authorize?) 

Old Cav Lt said...

I've frequently wondered why the academies are in D1 football; a lot of those monsters on the O line and the D line of non-trade school teams would never get past AR 600-9, the Army Weight Control Program.

I had a lot of experience with it... I was a biiiiig boy.  My max weight after evaluation was 264 pounds at 6'1".  I was evaluated over... and over.... and over.  Each new commander couldn't fricking believe that I could get high PT test scores (280's out of then 300's) and weigh 235 or so while doing it.

I played offensive tackle for the Rhein Main Rockets back in the day.  (An AF MG by the name of Saddler had customs MP's on the look out for football types... they nabbed me while I was escorting a Chapter 13 through the PAX.)

Imagine what I would have been thinking if I looked up and saw a 320 pound defensive tackle going heads up with me?

Yes, I know.... some years, the academies have good years.  But most of the time, they get hammered.

So, why aren't they playing in small college divisions as a result?  Ever since Appalachian State beat Michigan back in 07, clearly, on any given day.... but are the Academies EVER going to be able to beat a USC or a Texas?

sid said...

<span><span><span><span> </span>You imply that we should not be spending money on those things at Navy.</span></span></span>

Seawolf....

Ultimately, you are talking about TAXPAYER money.

I am right pissed off about how my money is getting spent on the Severn.

Ain't the same as Yale or anywhere else.

Oh.

And we -are- fighting a couple of wars too.

Turning out leaders who will prevail in what is turning out to be a very turbulent 21st Century is what should matter most.

We are back to that whole "priorities" thing.

And I will argue they are the most out of whack in the USN since early 1942....

Bull Snipe said...

Andrew -  if happens all the time.  MWR is mostly non-appropriated funds.  It's meant to pay for itself.  The profits from the clubs pays for the gyms.  The NEX profits buys the basketballs.  Usually, civil servants run the funds, but the money they spend doesn't come from Congress.

Bull Snipe said...

Nope, non-appropriated funds are NOT taxpayer money.  That's what "non-appropriated" means.  This fund started from monies made at a bowl game.  Congress had nothing to do with it.

Andrewdb said...

And there are lots of rules on how MWR money is dealt with. 

I love my D1 football, and have had many Grantland Rice afternoons, during college and after (I didn't miss a home game in 4 years, and have missed 2 Cal-Stanford games since 1979).  I get the idea that Cadets and Mids shouldn't have to give up all of "The College Experience(TM)", although the dirty secret is that a college football program really belongs in the Development Office - but this IG stuff is tragic reading.

Andrewdb said...

My Comptroller Course Deskbook is at home, but I recall that Miscellaneous Receipts are suppose to be deposited into the Treasury General Fund.  If I am remembering correctly, that's why you can't collect money for a conference and everyone has to pay the hotel directly.

MR T's Haircut said...

hmm so VADM people "under him" create fake illegal acccount.  Druggie gets in trouble, Alumni and lobbiest pressure VADM... hmm really?

CORRUPT BASTARDS!!!

MR T's Haircut said...

VADM FOWLER,  RESIGN.

Bull Snipe said...

Which is why, perversely, these weren't.  Monies given to the Treasury Department don't boomarang and come back to the academy for the academy to spend.  That's the sin.  The fund was obviously auditable, and managed.  It just wasn't inside the white lines.

sid said...

"started" from monies at a bowl game?

And, how much <span>TAXPAYER</span> money enables an Annapolis team to be fielded in the first place???

Spare me the dissembling lawfare crap Bullsnipe.

All this stinks to high heaven.

Seawolf said...

<span>Actually, very little taxpayer money goes into the athletic teams.  But are you suggesting that the service academies should not field any intercollegiate athletic teams if any taxpayer money is involved?</span>
<span> </span>
<span>Now I agree that this stinks.<span>  </span>But as I said below, reform the process, don’t jettison the institution.</span>

C-dore 14 said...

The more I've thought about this I've realized that this is less about Division 1 football than it is about the command climate that has developed in Annapolis during VADM Fowler's time as Superintendent.  It's all about exceptions and justification after the fact.  First it was rationalizing not expelling a pregnant Mid, later it was turning a blind eye to the color guard fiasco, then it was explaining the retention of Midn Curry, now it's an off the books slush fund to make sure money gets spent the way the administration wants it spent without appropriate oversight.  Each individual event chips away at the leadership's credibility and reduces its ability to pass on the lessons of integrity and accountability that the midshipmen are supposed to be learning.

Like most young people of their age, the Mids are on the lookout for these variations from the ideal, if for no other reason than to rationalize where they fall short.  As Professor Flemming has pointed out this leads to a loss of idealism and cynicism among a group the leadership should be trying to inspire.  Releasing the IG report between Commissioning Week and "I Day" fits the pattern.  BTW, the Mids will (if they haven't already) find out.

I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons for the how and why but as Arleigh Burke is supposed to have said regarding failure "There's always a reason, there's never an excuse.

Bull Snipe said...

It looks like Sal threw out my first reply, so I'll be more temperate.  The Naval Academy Athletic Association fields USNA teams.  The Association is not tax payer supported.  It makes its money via donations, admissions, TV contracts, playing Notre Dame and Ohio State in football, etc.  Repair of athletic facilities is probably split between approriated and non-appropriated accounts.  The stadium upgrade was a non-appropriated expense.

This is the Baltimore Sun article on the subject:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-naval-academy-report-20100629,0,4049541.story

Note the $95K came from the Meineke Car Care Bowl via the Athletic Assoc.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

No football, no problems (with football, anyway).  Can't get good applicants without a great team? Baloney.

If you want a free education and a commission, apply. If you won't because it isn't a "major" university with all the trimmings, don't.

If a middie must cheer a team, the NFL is there.

Marine6 said...

You might ask Douglas MacArthur or Stan McCrystal about flag officers being exempt.

Of course, now that we have more admirals than we have ships I guess there's just too many of them to keep track of every little thing that they do.

steeljawscribe said...

... and Charleston....

DM05 said...

Great post, real problems at the boat school, and football runs through it. Appropriated/non-appropriated/donations/corp $/whatever...Boosterism on steroids for what? Those well-heeled alums, and complicent nincompoop officers that execute and keep the sham of D1 football going should be ashamed. And keelhauled...

Bull Snipe said...

Get off your high horse, Sid, and don't hurt yourself stepping down.

Academy varsity sports are funded by the Academy Athletic Association. a FOR PROFIT enterprise.  It makes its money the same way Notre Dame, Ohio State and Missouri do.  By playing them, and Army, on television.

The $95K that started this mess was USNAAA profit the shared with the administration.  See the Baltimore Sun article at http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-naval-academy-report-20100629,0,4049541.story

Intramurals are, I am sure, an appropriated fund expense.  Facilities and coaching meet somewhere in the middie.  The recent upgrade to the football stadium was not an appropriated expense, but some part of its maintenance is I'm sure because it hosts official (truly official) functions like graduation.

LT B said...

This is still a fault/prolem w/ alumni that have put the academy and its athletic programs/reputation above the Navy and the nation.  Just like MTH, it makes me CSADD

CDR Salamander said...

I didn't do anything.

sid said...

A low mule in my case Bull Snipe.

But, thanks for your concern.

Are you saying there is no qualitative, cultural differnce between Boat School and any other school?

Last account I had, it existed to groom leaders who will prevail in <span>WARFARE</span>.

If not, then,as a taxpayer supporting it. I have to ask where the value added is?

And..."enterprise"...really?

WTF does that have to do with modern warfare?

sid said...

<span>Academy varsity sports are funded by the Academy Athletic Association. a FOR PROFIT enterprise</span>

Seems that 95 grand would have been better spent with these people Bull...

Just sayin'...

Southern Air Pirate said...

I almost wonder if NCAA should get involved as well. I mean you aren't D1 sports if you haven't had NCAA sactions against you. At the same I wonder what could the NCAA do to Canoe U. Ban them from the CINC Cup? THe most I could see is restriction from bowl games and the potetntial that for four years no Army Navy game on TV. Can't really restrict recuriting, can't cut any funding, can't ban the boosters. Anyone have any ideas?

cbg said...

lawlz.  capt bob parsons, cec, usn, retired is the tom hagan of usna.  that place is hotel california.  come in as an o6 and stay as a civilian for life. 

naughton was the only recent supt who tried to shake things up and you see where that got him.

Bull Snipe said...

Qualitative?  Probably not.  There are 3000 institutes on higher learning in this country, and I attest one can get a good education at all of them.  With some it takes more application by the student, at others the environment is more conducive. But all can impart a good education.

Cultural?  Absolutely.  I consider it self evident.

Your last account was wrong.  USNA mission:  To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character, to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government. 

Enterprise?  You don't like the word?  OK.  endeavor.

And wrt to your WTF, I'll give the last word to MacArthur: "I need an officer for a difficult, dangerous mission. Get me a West Point Football player."

SWOINATOR said...

Completely agree.  In a recent conversation with a graduating MID, they are reading right through this and see the piss poor example of the SUPE.  They may be impressionable, but they are smart and most (sans preg womon, dope smokes are honor violators who were all cuddled by Fowler) see him as the anti-example.  I am only sad it took this long to boot him: it should have happened long ago.

Tha new SUPE has his hands full. He also a rather good piece of clay and no where to go but up.

Dave said...

And just what is it that you would report to the NCAA?

Anonymous said...

Where can one go to find a copy of the IG report?

GoNavyFB said...

<span></span>



<p><span>The IG conducted a year long investigation into a number of allegations of a "sprawling financial scandal at the Naval Academy” and in the end “the IG did not substantiate any of the allegations that Fowler was knowingly involved in the financial misconduct”; “Vice Adm. Fowler believed any expenditures he authorized were permissible, and he did not financially gain from these irregularities" and “ultimately concluded that these and other expenditures were “within the discretionary authority” of the Naval Academy.”<span>  </span>In the end, the IG could only “(criticize) the accounting and oversight of the money used.”</span><span></span></p>

GoNavyFB said...

<p><span>OK, in looking at some of the expenditures: </span>
</p><p><span>• Annual spending of $400,000 or more for academy-sponsored tailgate events at football bowl games over the past six years. </span>
</p><p><span>How much fundraising occurred during those tailgaters were funneled into more “legitimate” accounts and materially benefited the Naval Academy (maybe some of that paid for Professors, like Flemming – LOL!)</span>
</p><p><span>• Spending $157,000 to purchase an 18-wheel tractor trailer truck for the academy’s football team. </span>
</p><p><span>Sounds like a bargain for such a highly visible recruiting tool… </span>
</p><p><span>• Spending $325,000 to purchase an antique airplane model that hangs in the front entrance to Dahlgren Hall. </span>
</p><p><span>Funny, I fail to understand how that expenditure, along with those spent on the recruiting videos designed to increase minority awareness of the USNA opportunity were spent to benefit the football program. </span>
</p><p><span>In other instances, such as the catered parties for football coaches and their families, the IG found that the allegations of wrongful spending were “substantiated; however, the violations were unintentional.”<span> 
</span>So, in other words, honest mistakes were made – and now a mountain is being made out of a molehill… </span></p>

GoNavyFB said...

Exactly what do you think the NCAA would have to investigate?  No foul was committed with respect to NCAA rules.

CDR Salamander said...

Send me an email.  I'll have it to you inside 24hrs.

LT B said...

I know we had a kid w/ a 0.4 GPA (granted at 6 weeks) allowed to play.  So, how did this benefit the Navy?  What lesson was taught?  Wasn't he playing counter to MIDREGS?  I mean, I'm CERTAIN there are rules about travel when if you square your grade point average it decreases!  Harumph.  That wasn't under Fowler's term, but then again, at least that player did not pop postive on his whiz quiz. 

CDR Salamander said...

Behold the problem in full bloom.  GoNavyFB is all about the football.  No concern about the example being set for future ENS and 2LT.  No concern for compromising integrity.  No concern for an attitude that would land a LT Supply Corps guy in jail or at NJP.  No concern really for USNA.

Football trumps all.  It is the "Sports Dad" complet writ large.  Sad.

Redeye80 said...

Mountain out of a molehill! Investigated and resolved. 

The issue is not football.  The issue is the mission of USNA.  Read West Point's mission statement then USNA's.  One is focused on providing warriors in defense of this nation, the other not so much.  Guess which is which?

Dave said...

6 week grades are "progress reports". MIDREGS covers semester GPA as do the NCAA Rules.  The typical Bancroft Hall answer is " Make him stay here and study" except no one stays to make sure he does study.
On a trip, tutors are available as well as coaches to insure that the book is, at least, open.

The sad thing about this thread and it's title is that Sal tends to use the "F" word too much.
This incident is about Naval Academy accounting irregularities.  I fail to see how chandeliers, O Club improvements, wine at the Supes house, parties at the O Club annex at the golf course, a replacement airplane for the Yellow Peril and gifts to the Naval Academy that were kept in a side account have anything to do with football. The majority of the money in the account came from a donor ( Read the Baltimore Sun) who is a graduate.  His gifts had little. if anything,to do with the football program.

The tailgaters at the Bowl games were to benefit the Midshipmen who traveled to the games.  Anyone else who attended had to pay.

Spinning every little thing off on football seems to be a new sport here.

CDR Salamander said...

You look for common threads.  Common themes.  Common attributes.

Have you ever been part of a MISHAP investigation?  Been involved in risk management? 

When failures take place - you look for patterns.  You look for contributing factors that tie seamingly seperate incidents together.  Sure - there are a lot of things that contribute.  There are more than one effect ... but when there is one factor that continues to show up again and again and again --- it would be foolish and unprofessional to ignore that common factor.

Would you feel better if it was never mentioned that there was an interplay with football?  Do you believe that an unhealthy obsession with money is involved with USNA football?  If not - have you talked to USNA football players and their thoughts about the money issue?  I have.

Dave said...

This is an accounting irregularity.  Plain and simple. And not by the Athletic Association which is a seperate entity from the Naval Academy.

Your title could have been " The wages of buying airplanes" or " The wages of refurbishing O Clubs" or " The wages of cultivating donors".   Those items have just as much to do with this as football does with the exception that some of the money that wound up in this account was donated to the academy from sponsorship fees at the Meinicke Bowl.  That donation is akin to the NAAA donation that helped build the Naval Academy Museum and Alumni Hall.

If you give your next door neighbor money and he uses it in an illegal manner, are you accountable?

sid said...

<span>Your last account was wrong.  USNA mission:  To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service</span>

My nephew played high school ball with a kid who went to USNA to play ball a few years ago. Good kid and all, but I noticed with dismay that he had no real interest in ever pursuing a "career of naval service."

Can't help but think of some poor kid out in the fleet...Like YN3 doing IA in the 'stans...Who is dedicated to making this navy a better place, who won't get a shot at attending USNA because he wont't shine on a football field.

Priorities Bull...

<span>"I need an officer for a difficult, dangerous mission. Get me a West Point Football player."</span>

While a widespread quote, show me credible source that establishes where MacArthur ever said it Bull...

<span>Enterprise?  You don't like the word?  OK.  endeavor.</span>

It rolled off so easily for you.

Personally I prefer "Battlemindedness"

As for "Non-appropriated...

My first jobs were MWR funded summer gigs. Sailing facility. Bowling alley. Stuff like that. I saw then that such "endeavors" could not exist outside the larger context of support on the base.

Those parties... Who paid for the gas int he vehicles moving the catering stuff? The electirc bills. The venue. The setups????

sid said...

Good point, and one I was going to bring up too.

We are in the middle of the longest war in the nation's history, and all this effort is getting spent -at a <span>Service Academy</span>- on weekend games.

Go figure....

SubIconoclast said...

The molehill here is an integrity violation by a submariner.  Some folks consider that sort of thing to be a mountain.  

Even the PERCEPTION of a violation is unacceptable... the SUBSTANCE of a violation can be even worse.  Intentional or not, wrongful spending falls well short of a naval officer's standard of conduct (they DO teach about stuff like that at the Academy, right?).  The Navy deserves better than a constant stream of excuses flowing from Annapolis.  Where are the leadership critique, root cause analysis, corrective actions, 'lessons learned' messages, and follow-up audits? USNA has been exhibiting a pattern of integrity problems and could use some intrusive "help" from its ISIC.  

Bottom line: One of a commander's primary duties is to understand the rules and to follow them. VADM Fowler has served in enough positions of responsibility to know that by now.  

C-dore 14 said...

Well this program certainly succeeded in "increasing awareness" of the place.  The headline on page two of the Seattle "Times" this morning was "Navy" Academy Tapped Slush Fund to Pay for Partying".  But I guess any publicity is considered good in some circles.

Bull Snipe said...

You are correct.  MacArthur didn't say it.  George Marshall did.  See

http://www.photos.hvpress.net/2009/Sports/Army-vs-Tulane-09/9843344_dp3iQ/1/670509037_mMVmq#670509037_mMVmq

C-dore 14 said...

Dave, Sorry to correct you but this is a violation of integrity.  Plain and simple.  

sid said...

Pretty certain he would not want a blunt smokin' Navy one....

Keeping him around was a good use of <span>MY</span> taxdollars...How?

Dave said...

Ok, I will go along with that.. An accounting irregularity that violates the rules does have to do with integrity.  I agree with you.

 Why it gets hung on football, I just don't get.

sid said...

<span><span>On a trip, tutors are available</span>
 
At what cost?</span>

Paid by whom?

Southern Air Pirate said...

Baloney. How many D1 schools were investigated in the late 80's and early 90's cause it was found the "Alumni committees" were funneling money to students via gifts or outright loans. I know my home town school, the U of WA, was hit hard cause of that in 93-94 time frame, along with with student grade violations and recuriting violations. Our football team hasn't recovered yet! Let alone they can't seem to find a decent coach.

You know how many people remember the great footballers of the service academy's? I will tell you ZERO, NADA, ZILCH!. Nine times out of ten it is something mentioned in passing. Just look at Roger Starbaugh, all you hear if they do a bio on him is that he was the greatest QB in Dallas Cowboys history at the time. A quickie mention that he came from USNA, won the hesiman there and then went on to greatness with the NFL. Same thing for guys like Halsey. YOu hear about the Typhoon, SoPac commander, Leyte Gulf, Hard Charging kill'em attitude and then a quickie blurb about how he got the nickname Bull from his football days.  Don't tell me Football is that important for USNA.

Oh and by the way all you Football supporters. Look back about sixty years and see what Football over Service did to USMA's program. Remember the Cheating scandal? Of course you don't cause no one studies the past. Major Honor code violations. If i remember right a half that team was kicked out, a few professors were let go, and the O-3's that were the brigade commanders were kicked out of the service. All because the USMA wanted a D1 team.

Curtis said...

Andrew, I ran an official USN non-appriated fund and used the money pretty much any way me and the XO wanted to.  You know, we bought beer and alcohol and rented hotel rooms and rented vehicles and gussied up the official place of duty and bought VCRs and stuff like that.  Got audited by exactly the same monies board that audited the other non-appropriated funds account that ran to hundreds of thousands of $/month.  Every month every penny was certified by appropriate official and all of us signed our names to the accounting document.  I'll be honest every single bit of this was completely transparent to the CO.  It wasn't his business unless the Monies Audit Board finds me guilty of stealing at which point there would be an instant charge, XOI complete by nightfall and MAST the following day.  In the navy the standing orders completely disallow a good solid financial expert such as the disbursing officer or supply officer from having any role in non-appropriated funds.

Dave said...

Paid by the athletic association.  A private organization.
Flight, room a meal or two.  No gov't monies involved.

sid said...

<span>No gov't monies involved.</span>

Are these tutors mids?

Bull Snipe said...

I'll see your Curry and raise you an Ingram
http://www.collegefootball.org/famersearch.php?id=18

a Cutter
http://www.collegefootball.org/famersearch.php?id=30050

and a Halsey
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq36-5.htm

Dave said...

No.  Faculty volunteers.

sid said...

No worries Dave...

I found the answer.

Though football has had its ups and downs for Vanak, he has been steady in the classroom, posting a 3.13 GPA while majoring in economics. Vanak's intelligence is well known on the football team and in his company as he helps tutor other football players and company mates in a variety of subjects.

So, your assertion that there are no gov't monies involved is not true.

Know what the Hepburn Report is Dave?

Just askin'...

May be worth some quality (tax supported) tutor time.

sid said...

Are these "volunteers" on active duty?

sid said...

If so, seems I see some fat that could be cut....

sid said...

<span>Seems y'all are not growing them like it used to be Bull. 
 
How come? 
 
Perhaps the corrosive ethical environment that exists today on the Severn? 
 
Mostly centered about the hubris associated with being a "big" college with a "big" football team....</span>

sid said...

<span>Oh yeah...Were those gents of old D1 players mostly intent on a professional ball career? 
 
Or did they put a kid's game into proper perspective, and go on to forge brilliant careers in Naval Warfare?</span>

Andrewdb said...

The Anti-deficiency Act (info here:  http://www.gao.gov/ada/antideficiency.htm  ) has both administrative and criminal penalties.  The "knowingly" stuff only applies to the criminal penalties, not the administrative penalties.  I am most familiar with the Army side of the house (where is Actus Rheas on this stuff?) - although no one has been prosecuted since the statute was enacted during the Civil War (or so I am told), it does act as a "flag" that halts any promotions during the usually 2 year investigation - which manages to get the attention of the people who might want a promotion!

Dave said...

Professors tutoring Midhipmen is bad?  What about those who come in weekends and nights to tutor?  What about those who travel with other Extra curricular activities?  What about the ones who take Midshipmen on cultural tours of foreign countries?
 And, yes, Midshipmen tutor other Midshipman.  In fact, there is a formal Midshipman Group Study Program where Midshipmen tutor in the evenings in subjects that they excel in.    But, what i was referring to are faculty volunteers who travel with the teams on the weekends and tutor on the road.

Are you saying that they should sit at home when they aren't actively in the classroom? 

I'm having a hard time figuring out your fuss.

Andrewdb said...

Curtis - my experience has been on the Army side, but the Joint Ethics rules are the same, even if the details of the ARs might be slightly different from the Navy Regs.  I will say that as a JAG I find it a constant battle to get people to think about these rules.

sid said...

My fuss is, that a Navy which can't afford ships sure shouldn't be spending the inordinate amount of time and money -no matter its source- on what amounts to a child's game run amok.

Namely Big Time College Football.

Again, where is the value added outof all this?

Southern Air Pirate said...

I wonder if we are even teaching ethics anymore at any of the service academys. I have read a few of these statements and I wonder honestly where the slipperly slope. I mean if your willing to sell your intergirty so your star player can stay on the team after getting a low grade, then it becomes retaining a star football player cause he can't make height weight standards, becomes a guy who might be a criminal, becomes a guy who stays on the team after failing a drug test. What then? How about the guy who the team knowingly lets drinks, drives, and then ends up killing someone after the end of season party? What excuse will you tell the greiving survivors about something like that cause you want a team to compete on the national level, so you negoiate for a lower sentance? You don't think that is happening in real life then your not paying attention to Collegiate level football.

I said it down below, but again look at nearly every one of the major D1 teams out there. Nearly all of them at one point from about 1988 till about 1997 suffered from a scandal with regards to improper money spent (either by boosters or by the AD department), recuriting scandals, grade point scandals, hell even gambling scandals and just out right thugs on the teams. What made it worst was that the NCAA watchdogs were like Claude Reins from Casablanca. "SHOCKED! SHOCKED! There is atheltic code violations going on in our collegiate football programs. We well clean it up as soon as our sponsor's checks get cashed!" What the whole scene either a farce or even really bad kabuki theater was that nearly all of the sports writers acted the same way and seem to do the wink,wink, nudge, nudge when the NCAA, school presidents, and school AD's talked about cleaning up the programs. Those scandals were one of the reason i quit paying that much attention to any college sports in the US. All it is seems is just a revolving door to get out of the family farm in Ottuma Iowa and on to the pros.

Also does anyone remember some of our famous military leaders for thier sports accolades? I have never seen the media talk about guys like Nimitz, Patton, Sherman, Spruance, Halsey, Leahy, King, Burke, Moore being superstars on the sporting field. Rather I hear all about thier glory on the battlefields and a passing note about them doing things such as qualifing for a spot on the US Olympic team or getting a nickname cause they were a terror on the football field. Most of the time even that is a footnote or a spot in the appendix of thier biography.

Dave said...

Sid,

I can see we will get nowhere on this subject.

Canceling football at the Naval Academy will not put one cent toward shipbuilding or piers in Guam. 

It would only limit the other athletic opportunities for Midshipmen and donations to the Naval Academy for items such as the Museum which was built in 1934 without Congressional funding. The NAAA raised 3/4 of the $200,000 it cost to build and the Naval Institute raised $50,000.  The NAAA also contributed over $1M to the building of Alumni Hall.  All non government funding.

So, there <span>are</span> value added ancillary benefits that a football program brings to the Academy that most people do not see.


 I give.

.

GoNavyFB said...

Yeah, never mind the fact that many of those same football players you seem to enjoy denegrating whenever you have a target of opportunity are serving at the tip of the spear during a time of war - almost 50% of the football players of the graduating classes over the last decade have chose to serve their country as Marine Corps Officers.  Several have paid for their decisions to attend the Naval Academy with their lives over that same period or have acquited themselves very honorably in battle.  Do you even know one of them?  You remind me of Roosevelt's poem about the man in the arena - LOL!

Andrewdb said...

I agree with those who say it isn't just Football - the recent NCAA report on USC (my law school alma mater, although I was known as they guy who bled Blue and Gold, most definately NOT Cardinal and Gold, during my time there) was over Football, Men's Basketball and WOMEN'S TENNIS (!?!)

GoNavyFB said...

Of course, never mind the fact that the "Navy" pays nothing for "Big Time College Football" you rail against as all that money comes from "non-appropriated" funds managed by an independent association.  In fact the Football programs actually pays for the 33 or so other Varsity Sports - unlike AF - where those funds are "appropriated".

The value added is positive exposure for the Naval Academy and the opportunity to present its positive message on a vastly wider audience that is possible via other means. 

GoNavyFB said...

<span><span>USMA:</span></span>
<span><span>"To educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army."</span></span>
<p><span></span>
</p><p><span>USNA:</span>
</p><p><span>To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character, to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government.</span>
</p><p><span></span>
</p><p><span>Where is the significant difference you were alluding to?</span></p>

GoNavyFB said...

LOL!  Football pays all the bills for all the women's sports at Navy - something that would not be possible if it was not a D-1A Program.  Of course, the fact that are 12 Varsity Sports at Navy for Women (who make up about 15% of the Brigade is probably lost on you.

GoNavyFB said...

Yeah, OK - the Admiral who was releaved as Supe for having a fight with a junior enlisted Gate Guard?

GoNavyFB said...

Maybe you should talk with Winchester, Blecksmith and Zellum.

Curtis said...

I know this one guy who as USNA, he and bunch of other mids were shipped oversea on a Cruiser so they could play games.  Robert Heinlein was on the US Olympic Fencing Team.  He's pretty famous but not as a navy man.

GoNavyFB said...

Obviously you never played on the fields of friendly stiffe - it is not hard to see why you don't understand.

Bull Snipe said...

Not sure what the currency is here.  You name a football player/scum bag and I name a football player/success story?  Ok.  When do you put the dip stick in to measure scum and when to measure success?

Here's several.  You decide.
http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051221/news_1s21sullivan.html
http://www.navysports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/122206aac.html
http://www.tracked.com/person/thomas-c-lynch/

Discount Stuffelbeem 50%.  See his Wiki entry.

You get the last word.

sid said...

Just as a digressionary FYI...Stufflebeam's dad  (Beanstuffer) and mine were in the same squadron. I remember him from scouts...

Anyway.

Who gives a rat's ass damn that they played ball.

It really should not matter to grown-ups.

I still say its a distraction and waste of resouces at a time the USN can ill afford ANY extravagance.

And again, this Saturdy Night Light on the Severn has only served to see the USNA leadership make all too many deals with the devil for soem very badly misplaced hubris.

sid said...

<span>Stufflebeam's dad  (Beanstuffer) and mine were in the same squadron. </span>
Forgot to add...

In retrospect, I don't think they cared for each other all that much.

A classic ring knocker vs. avcad thing I suppose....

CDR Salamander said...

Teh futbahl nuts always pull the money card when they can't win an argument.  Funny  - you should read the link Dan de Vies has on that in the WaPo .... if you can't find it - it will be in tomorrow's post.

CDR Salamander said...

I will also link to it in tomorrow's post.

CDR Salamander said...

You don't get it, do you?  This isn't about football - it is about playing football at the right level and the compromises that USNA makes to get to D1.  I played football for over a decade+ - season ticket holder as an adult ..... no hater here.

Bull Snipe said...

SAP -

What women's team needs a tractor trailer?  Except for maybe six weekends every fall, there's one available.  Can't think of one that would need it.  The crew team can get by with vans and a shell trailer.

Title 9 has a three way test.  But most basically, as long as the proportion of female varsity athletes is the same as the female proportion of the student body, Title 9 can be met with just one team.  As long as the facilities and salaries are comparable, there's else nothing to object to.  That's the easy test to score and to satisfy.  The other ones measure much more subjectively.

The sailor who taught you as an E-2 did a p-poor job.  There's not Title 9 smoke here, much less fire.  You can be sure if the academy (any academy) were not in compliance, it'd be in the press.  And Sal would have it here.

Redeye80 said...

USMA is all about service in the Army. USNA not so much, adds chaff about follow on for life after service.  It also looks exactly like the NROTC mission statement.

Here is mission statement when I attended USNA, I believe it is simple and cuts to the chase:

"To prepare midshipmen morally, mentally and physically to be professional officers in the naval service."

Maybe if the institution would focus on that mission, we wouldn't have all issues we have had over the past couple of years.

Southern Air Pirate said...

Shipmate! You are being blinded by the altar of the pigskin and $$$. Take a step back and look at what has happened to collegiate sports in just the last 30yrs (and by extension pro sports).  I am not hating that USNA or any of the service academies have football, let alone any sport. I played a few sports in high school never did well enough in either my grades or my athletics to make it to college. So I don't know what that pressure was like.  My biggest complaint is the quick and easy slope of moral equivalenance you put yourself on to make a winning team or be the winner. I don't care whether it is Football, Track&Field, Marksmanship, Fencing, racing, whatever the minute you start to cut corners to win it is a bad scene. A little grey rule that is flexed every so often becomes one that is broken, that then begats a harder rule to be flexed, that then begats an out right criminal rule which is broken just so you can have your winning team. I would suggest you take a good look at everything from the U of Miami Football scandals in the mid 80's, FSU Bobby Bowden knowingly ship off some of his players to early pratice sessions when local police were looking at them for drug/rape charges and in essance delaying convictions or investigations for weeks cause the prime suspect wasn't to be found, SMU football being kicked out of the NCAA football in 1986 for the entire season and only know recovering cause of them outright paying players for play making from a fund created by the boosters, U of Alabama getting their clocks cleaned after it came out a few of the coaching staff were working on slush funds as well to build a better team in 2002, i could do some more digging but you need to understand the point. One of the things that makes an officer is thier ability to stand ethically and morally in front of the civilian populace saying they will do the right thing. If the civilian populace know this same military leader is willing to sell themselves out for a little bit of collegiate glory, some mom may wonder if that same offier didn't sell out her child for a little bit of military glory. It isn't about the "cause all the other kids are doing it" speech that I detect from the defenders, rather this discussion should be about doing the right thing.

Southern Air Pirate said...

Bull Snipe -

Go and look at the Department of Health,Education, Welfare's memo on how to properly implement the law, http://tinyurl.com/36wfsb. It is an OR gate basically. You have to fail to meet any one of these items; Prong one - Providing athletic participation opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment, ORProng two - Demonstrate a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented sex, ORProng three - Full and effective accommodation of the interest and ability of underrepresented sex.

You fail to meet any one of those gates and a good lawyer can have the school tied up in court for years.  Also you fail to note that there are some ambulance chasing diversity lawyers who would find these IG report and take a look at service academy sports and make smoke/fire where there wasn't one. All they need to do is pull off the Chewbacca defense in front of some judge. Again asking the same questions I asked to start with. Plant the seed and see what happens in the court.
I was just playing the extreme devils advocate cause again, I have seen some collegiate conferences that are Div1 see the sporting oppourtunities dry up trying to meet Title 9 requirements. Whether that is canceling strong programs that produced olympic gold competitors or canceling them cause the money spent on them to have games was cost prohibative. Do a search in the news section of the internet about smaller conference schools or even some of the Div1 schools cutting successful sporting programs cause of the need to fianance some program like football/basketball and women's sports programs. 

Oh and GoNavyFB. I pay the damn bills as a federal taxpayer for the service academies. Not just football, so as a taxpayer I should have the right to say how my good ol'trusty federal tax dollar is spent and what is being done at my institutions!

GoNavyFB said...

<span>"Teh futbahl nuts always pull the money card..." </span>

...and those with a lack of a good argument typically resort to insults and name calling...

GoNavyFB said...

Oh yeah, we certainly had no problems back in the good old days like the early '80's eh?  Hmmmn?  You had a pretty good football program back then too - went to a few bowl games, almost beat Ohio State in one - certainly those guys were all stone cold killers - eh?

LT B said...

Nice try Dave but I knew his Company Officer as well and he denied every one of his MOVORDs.  They were approved higher up the chain and over ridden, for the good of the team.  And, why do we have progress reports every 6 weeks?  To track, target and help those that need it.  This dude had a reduced class load and had an F- GPA at 6 weeks, his company officer and his instructors were pushing to have him stay on the yard.  Smells like D1 shenanigans at a state college w/o the mission to build midshipmen morally, mentally and physically to imbue them ...  

See what I'm getting at?  I taught there and was so disappointed w/ the silliness that went on there.  Great PR campaign, but not as full on substance as I'd hoped.  Double standards, students gliding through, happy talk and a general lack of professional knowledge due to the full on pump and dump mentality fostered there.  It was an eye opener to say the least.  A lot of money per student for an equal product to the other commissioning avenues, IMHO.

GoNavyFB said...

"...it is about playing football at the right level..."

Navy is playing at the right level - the right level for this institution is D-1A.  It is about the exposure the school enjoys because of its athletic successes playing some of the best college teams in the nation on national TV, its about the money the program generates for all 33+/- other Varsity Athletic programs at Navy - something that would be absolutely impossible at any other level of play below D-1A - and it is about the money generated for the instiutution through the visability of the program - others have talked about how non-appropraited funding has become available for buildings and refurbishment of buildings that would otherwise not has been generated - like it or not, football makes money for the Naval Academy that allows it to go beyond the Congressional funding levels that provide for an "adequate" Naval academy and moves it into a higher level of excellence. 

GoNavyFB said...

"Take a step back and look at what has happened to collegiate sports in just the last 30yrs (and by extension pro sports)..."

The things that make people's heads spin in circles about Navy Football's issues would be laughed about at any other (non-academy) football program and school.  There is no comparison between the angles of your "slippery slopes".

GoNavyFB said...

Thats a stretch I think you might have trouble getting anyone to go with...

GoNavyFB said...

None of the money that has been discussed today has been any of your precious tax dollars - every bit of this money has come from "non-appropriated" funds.  It has been said the government provides funds for an Adequate Naval Academy - the non-appropriated funds it generates through football and other streams allows for an Excellent Naval Academy.

GoNavyFB said...

There is a grapevine in the ranks of all the services. The men make it their business to find out who their officers are. There is a special respect for those who would carry the ball on a football field, throw a wicked block, or make a dead-stop tackle.
-- <span>Slade Cutter</span>

Slade Deville Cutter (born November 1, 1911 – June 9, 2005) was a career U.S. naval officer who was awarded four <span>Navy Crosses</span> and tied for second place for Japanese ships sunk in <span>World War II</span>. He graduated from the <span>United States Naval Academy</span> as an <span>All-American</span> <span>American football</span> player.

Redeye80 said...

No, I was there when "up the middle, up the middle, up the middle, punt" George Welsh was the coach.  No, the good old days when we played Michigan for half the gate and got our butts kicked every year.  We did have one good year, ranked 11th until we played ND.

C-dore 14 said...

GoNavyFB, I think that the point that many of us are making wrt football is the compromises that Navy appears to be making in terms of admissions, discipline, education, and professional training in order to be competitive at the Div 1A level.  Now it's come to the point where some unspecified "administrative action" was taken regarding the Superintendent because he failed to manage an off the books account funded, in part, by the proceeds of the school's football program.  Maybe it's time for a reassessment and a true cost/benefit analysis.

Like CDR S, I enjoy Navy Football...I even enjoyed it back in the '70s and other years when they couldn't buy a victory even against Div 1AA teams.  However, it's important that we don't lose track that the real reason that we have a Naval Academy is to produce the best possible officers for the Navy and Marine Corps.  The "fields of strife" I served on were anything but friendly so I believe I have some insight into what the services need.

sid said...

<span>The value added is positive exposure for the Naval Academy and the opportunity to present its positive message on a vastly wider audience that is possible via other means. </span>

Boy Howdy!

You sure got that "positive" down pat!!!!

sid said...

Yeah...And the current state of the Navy shows it too.

Old Salt said...

wow - you must be reading different media than I have been reading.

DeltaBravo said...

Cutter played FB in the 1930s.  When did he make that comment?  Within the last half century?  Wonder what he'd think of 2010 USNA FB.   Especially since he had such a dim view of the football program and perceived disloyalty to the Navy of his predecessor when he took over USNA athletics in the 1950s.  Seems he took issue with the fact that the boys were playing and then not staying.  I doubt he'd like how FB players are viewed now... it's more like "good they can throw a wicked block or make a dead-stop tackle.  Else they wouldn't be here...."  Know what I mean?  The people who once were held in esteem could do those things IN ADDITION to engineering and military excellence.  Oh... and integrity.  I doubt in his day they were passing failures so that they'd be eligible for the big game.  After all, he knew what the Navy was really about... going to USNA between the wars.  Maybe someday if there's ever another war we'll have to get serious about what USNA is really for.

Southern Air Pirate said...

"The things that make people's heads spin in circles about Navy Football's issues would be laughed about at any other (non-academy) football program and school.  There is no comparison between the angles of your "slippery slopes"."

I understand that point, I mean every one of the D1 sports programs have dealt with drug problems in thier star players or programs
, dealt with thier star players raping a few of the female students, have dealt with slush (or illegal funds) that were controlled by Alumni/Boosters. It is so prevelant that nearly everyone from the sports media to the watch dogs all acted shocked when it becomes an issue. All of the Athetletic Departments and by extenstion admin departmnets of nearly all of the major D1 schools (and some smaller ones) have see issues with thier sporting programs (and football primarly) so they can have a progam which will be featured on ABC/ESPN on Saturday afternoon, along with the $$$ that comes from having a team which earns those advertising dollars. Again all you need to do is just go through any one of the news crawlers here on the internet and look at the local media reports on any of your favorite D1 football programs.

You can tell me all you want about how important sports are for the collegiate student and can make the a better well rounded person. I won't disagree with you there, sports are good for some people. But you are failing to see the bigger picture, when you start to let not only honor code violations ocurr and potential criminal violations occur, but outright criminal violations occur; all the while trying to do a some sort of jedi mind trick telling me these "officers and gentlemen" just made some mistakes and shouldn't be punished cause they are taking us to the XYZABC123 Bowl then you sir are a hypocrite. Cause some of the Officers inside Canoe U and some Alumni who have said such things about Middy Football players, but when they were line officers took junior enlisted sailors to mast or court martial for the same sort of UCMJ violations, that just shows to me you have no honor, integerity, courage, or committement.

Southern Air Pirate said...

Same Kubaki Theater was said about slush funds provided by the boosters at school like the UW, SMU, U of Alabama, FSU, U of Miami, U of Colorado, etc; those alumni/boosters supplied "non-appropiated" funds to the AD departments of those schools or specifically to those football programs and were used to buy high school students atheletes or buy successful programs via some very, very grey dealings in the registers offices.

C-dore 14 said...

GoNavyFB, Be careful with your generalizations.  Several of the posters here have "...face[d] the bull..." more than once in their careers.

Andrewdb said...

Don't understand what?  Following Fiscal Law requirements?  See my post from 1:45 below about my thoughts on college football.  I like college FB a LOT, for a lot of reasons.  I don't like people who think the rules don't apply to them.

DeltaBravo said...

Read through this whole thing... this leaps out!

"The things that make people's heads spin in circles about Navy Football's issues would be laughed about at any other (non-academy) football program and school.  There is no comparison between the angles of your "slippery slopes". "

Football is the nemesis of the canary of integrity and discipline in the well.  And usually that canary survives all other sports but it's flopping at the bottom of the well in extremis at the mere mention of football.  Thus USNA trades its birthright for a mess of pottage.  An excellent Naval Academy doesn't need a football team with parties and bells and whistles to attract the nation's best and brightest who want to be naval officers.  In fact, those who demand D-1 football and tailgate parties can go elsewhere.  USNA has a rejection rate for applicants on par with Harvard last I looked.  How many amazing candidates were rejected in favor of some people whose only (temporary) interest in the US Navy consisted of throwing a ball around?

Who cares if lesser schools with better FB teams would laugh at the standards being debated here.  Their graduates often have much less at stake as well.  Their proved willingness to cut corners and cheat and lie and disobey regulations won't cost the priceless lives of other people's spouses and children.  And it won't cause the loss of millions of dollars of taxpayer-provided equipment.  Integrity is whole cloth.  You can't remove a thread here and a thread there and not expect it to eventually tear completely when put to the test. 

I'd say the comparison to success on the gridiron and success in battle only goes so far.  And only works if you think the air or  sea will coddle you and the enemy will look the other way when the going gets rough to ensure a "proper outcome."

That huge slush fund... since there's a war on... the tailgate parties and wine and other fancy trappings should have been sacrificed and the money allotted to.. I dunno... body armor for the USMC grads... plane fare for families to travel to Landstuhl... I'm sure folks here could come up with quite the list.  

GoNavyFB said...

Yeah, the comparrison between using money buying athletes and buying an airplane to hang in Dahlgren Hall, to buy video equipment to produce minority recruiting videos and a truck to move football equipment to and from a game sight is always a valid comparrison in "grey" dealings.  Never mind the fact the IG investigation stated all expenditures were within the scope of expenditures allowed the Naval Academy.

CDR Salamander said...

You may want to follow the link on DivThu and read the whole report.

TG said...

The funny thing is that this CDR Salamander guy criticizes a football fan for "being all about the football" when this very blog post, despite the myriad findings of the report, is itself "all about the football." You reap what you sow.

Bull Snipe said...

SAP -

You have it partly right.  It is an OR gate.  That means IF A OR B OR C is TRUE, then you are in complicance.  In other words, IF A and NOT B and NOT C you are still in compliance.  Your characterization is correct, but your amplification describes an AND gate, which is not what the law requires.  An institution only needs to meet one test.  FWIW, I don't believe effective accommodation alone has ever been found satisfactory, reducing theory to IF A OR B in practice.

Guest said...

They do teach ethics at the USNA. It tends to confuse the mids when those in charge appear not to have them.

CDR Salamander said...

Huh?  How very 2nd grade of you.

Byron said...

Masterfull display of logic, just stunning... actually, just stunning.

FOD said...

@GNFB "...never mind..."  Cheap shot and off target.  That is not the kind of discussion we have here.  

If these were really "unintentional violations" then characterizing them as "honest mistakes" weakens ONLY the overarching integrity arguments.  So if we accept the honest mistake, where is the accountability for the failure to provide proper oversight and controls for a significant amount of money?  in the Navy I remember, individuals were still accountable for honest mistakes.  Especially when the honest mistake was failure to your job.

Bull Snipe said...

Well - the Supe is leaving the Navy at a grade to be determined.  Parsons got 5 days off without pay, and the never-named third individual got a reprimand.  The argument seems to be that doing your job badly equates to being dishonest or lacking in integrity.  I read the whole report this AM, and it reeks of ill-considered actions, but I find it a stretch to consider integrity impunged.  Your view may vary.  There's not one citation refered as a violation of UCMJ or other law.  The punishments seem to fit the non-crimes.

sid said...

<span>There is a special respect for those who would carry the ball on a football field, throw a wicked block, or make a dead-stop tackle.  </span>

THis may have carried some water back in the Knute Rockne days...

But -in the post OJ era- it is a quant anachronism.

GoNavyFB said...

"...How many amazing candidates were rejected in favor of some people whose only (temporary) interest in the US Navy consisted of throwing a ball around?..."

That question should be directed towards Winchester, Blecksmith and Zellum.

GoNavyFB said...

Sorry, you would have a hard time arguing successfully the positive exposure for Navy over the last decade because of its gridiron success is outweighed by a little negative exposure.

sid said...

Lets not forget Marcus Curry....

Or my nephew's  (unnamed) buddy who went into the USNA with the stated idea above....

sid said...

"Positive" how?

Has D1 football help increase the combat effectiveness of the Navy?

GoNavyFB said...

Nothing like some good old revisionist history mixed in with a little veiled racism.

GoNavyFB said...

Yeah, some of us have.

GoNavyFB said...

"...Cheap shot and off target.  That is not the kind of discussion we have here..."

So, are you telling me you think the current members of the Navy Football Team do deserve the appointments they received and that you believe they will make positive contributions to the Navy after they graduate?  If so, I think you might be in the minority of those who have posted about this subject.

Southern Air Pirate said...

GONavyFB That question could be directed toward Jimmy Carter, I also remember John Poindexter and Bob McFarlane, John McCain III. We know how history is playing out those four famous US Navy Footballers They all played Navy Football as well. Oh and it is LCDR Scott A. Zellem. If you are going to use our dead shipmates to advocate your postion, then you better use thier full and accurate name!

Bull Snipe said...

Now you've done it.  You've gone and quantly denigrated the entire NFL fanbase.  Pete Rozelle will visit you tonight.

Redeye80 said...

Let's stir the pot a little.

As an older grad (I hate saying that), I've noticed a trend.  Those who tend to favor certain activities, traditions, etc, at USNA seem to align with how much time they spent in the fleet.

I spent 30 years in the USMC & USMCR.

How about replying with your time in the fleet, grad or not.

This will be fun!

sid said...

As stated below...

Its ultimately alll about The Money

sid said...

<span><span>Several have paid for their decisions to attend the Naval Academy with their lives over that same period or have acquited themselves very honorably in battle.  Do you even know one of them?</span>
 
No. 
 
But why should I? 
 
The fact they played school football has nil consequence on the battlefield. </span>

<span>It's a  <span>GAME!</span>
</span>

Andrewdb said...

When the IG asked him about the off the books account the auditors didn't know about, started when the Bowl funds were "diverted" (the IG's word), VADM Fowler said "it was established before [his] time" !?!

Bull Snipe said...

"nil" can not possibly be right.  To peg it at the extremes, certainly coolness under pressure is more expected of a varsity athlete than a couch potato.

sid said...

What?!?

I sure hope you don't try to blow that kind of smoke up the wahzoos of the folks who work for you BS.

C-dore 14 said...

sid, Interesting.  Boomer and I had our O-6 commands in the same BG.

Bull Snipe said...

You've been standing next to that mule again.  Go wiki Bill Carpenter and tell me with straight face you wouldn't have seen that coming.

DeltaBravo said...

Sorry, BS, I got waylayed Wiki-ing this guy.   Gee, maybe if he'd played D-1 FB he would have shown coolness under pressure, teamwork and made a name for himself.  (Gonna go look for some more names of recent football heroes who displayed non-couch potato valor on the battlefield.  Some that are less than a quarter century old.  I'll get back to you...) 

sid said...

<span> To peg it at the extremes, certainly coolness under pressure is more expected of a varsity athlete than a couch potato.</span>

Its time to evolve BS

Read this....


"We have discovered that video game players perform 10 to 20 percent higher in terms of perceptual and cognitive ability than normal people that are non-game players," said Ray Perez, a program officer at the ONR's warfighter performance department in a Jan. 20 interview on Pentagon Web Radio's audio webcast "Armed with Science: Research and Applications for the Modern Military."

"Our concern is developing training technologies and training methods to improve

performance on the battlefield," said Perez, who holds a doctorate in educational psychology.

Perez described the war against terrorists as presenting significant challenges to warfighters on the ground because they must be able to adapt their operations to innovative and deadly adversaries who constantly change their tactics.

"We have to train people to be quick on their feet - agile problem solvers, agile thinkers - to be able to counteract and develop counter tactics to terrorists on the battlefield," Perez said. "It's really about human inventiveness and creativeness and being able to match wits with the enemy."

Redeye80 said...

Not sure I remember these famous military leaders for their football or sports accolodes but I do remember they were CAREER officers.

Bull Snipe said...

<span>"We have to train people to be quick on their feet - agile problem solvers, agile thinkers - to be able to counteract and develop counter tactics to terrorists on the battlefield," Perez said. "It's really about human inventiveness and creativeness and being able to match wits with the enemy." </span>

I missed it.  When has it not been about that?

Bull Snipe said...

I didn't say coolness under pressure is only found in varsity athletes.  I said it was expected in varsity athletes.

I didn't say it was not found in couch potatoes.  I said it was not expected to be found.

If you want to be a SEAL, play varsity water polo.  See http://www.myvalleynews.com/story/46241/
"The Coronado-based Naval Special Warfare Recruiting Directorate was reported today to be heavily recruiting high school and college-level water polo players to be Navy SEALs."

All honors to LT Murphy.  I hope they name a ship after him.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

Sid:

Success in combat under mortal peril and excellence on the gridiron are what is known as independent variables.   Unrelated.  One has no predictive value for the other.

Honor the sacred dead of Navy football? There's a sentence that is one word too long.

Football is a game. Extracurricular. Unnecessary. Pleasant to observe. Enjoyable to play, given the players on the two teams are of approximately equal competence (at football).

Personal integrity and the absence of a swollen head on the other hand are good for the Navy at all levels in peace and war. We can't afford officers without them, they are too expensive...waste, fraud and abuse incarnate. Do varsity members tend have too big a hatband and situational ethics? Mmmm, no reliable data despite recent individual cases. A leadership issue for all extracurricular "stars", certainly. The coach did his duty in the most recent cause celeb, so he, at least, knows and does his duty.  But I digress....

I don't see any more value in playing a D1 team than playing the Coast Guard Academy, in terms of contribution to mission.  Or any less.

Money is short. Everything is on the table. What does D1 football add? It costs a lot.

sid said...

<span>I didn't say coolness under pressure is only found in varsity athletes.  I said it was expected in varsity athletes.</span>

Since when did "varsity sports" mean "Division 1 Football"?

Bull Snipe said...

Gramps -

Re:  Independent Variables

There is a distinction between data never correlated and data not correlatable.  I sense physical courage in skilled physical performance.  Pick your sport, and the examples are evident.  Pass over the middle, taking a charge, running into the wall, fifth set tie at Wimbeldon.  In other words, I sense a correlation.  Your view may vary, but don't dismiss mine.

Now, moral courage?  Sports performance has no bearing.  Sports instruction may have lots.

sid said...

In other words, I sense a correlation.

Better add those xbox luvin' couch potatoes in there too Bull...

And again...

Where is D1 football in all this?

How is it in some way a value added "endeavor" to a tax supported service academy?

Bull Snipe said...

Sid -

Why is it Garry Trudeau gets this and you don't?
http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2010/06/27/

Those xbox guys are flying drones and watching monitors, and in the US aversion to spending blood before treasure (rightly so), that's the way conventional ops are going.  Their time is coming.

WRT D1 football, see my discussion with Brad in the diversity discussion.

D1 success => increased name recognition
Increased name recognition => Increased applicants
Increased applicants => greater selectivity
Greater selectivity => higher input
Higher input => higher output

And so it goes.

sid said...

Wow Bull...If couch potatoes ever get picked up as a Diversity "Protected Class" your stereotyping will get you thrown out on your ass.

D1 success => increased name recognition =Marcus Curry (only USNA footballer's name the vast majority of taxpayers have ever heard of)

Increased name recognition => Increased applicants = CDR Salamander has the back traffic on the number of footballers who have to spend quality time at prep school


Increased applicants => greater selectivity = Marcus Curry again


Greater selectivity => higher input = nephew's buddy (footballer) who went in because it was the college that picked him up. He wasn't much interested in the Navy except for that.

Higher input => higher output = See above

Bull Snipe said...

My ass is big enough.  It can take it. :)

WRT the only USNA footballer the vast majority of taxpayers have ever heard of, my paycheck is on Roger Staubach.

Byron said...

Somewhere in there I smell a broken syllogism or two...

sid said...

WRT the only USNA footballer the vast majority of taxpayers have ever heard of, my paycheck is on Roger Staubach.

Of a certain age I suppose...

Bet only a small fraction of those who remember knew he played for Navy though.

Please explain to me why D1 ball is more conducive to honing potential combat skills better than other -"lesser"- leagues...

You know, like the one the Goshawks were in....

I was there when CNATRA pulled the plug on them.

Too much money.

DeltaBravo said...

Veiled racism???

Bull Snipe said...

It's only been a few times in my life that I've stepped into a competition with a D1-level varsity athlete.  Once was when Navy's starting corner back quit the team because the coach wouldn't let him play offense.  He played intramural football instead.  I was only the referee but the talent level differential was noticeble to all, including me.  As a racquetballer, playing against better competiton makes me a better player.  Doesn't do much for him though.  Now, none of this hones combat skills, and that's an unfair extrapolation of anything I've said.  What D1 competition does do is ratchet up the pressure on those friendly fields of strife.  And this time it was Doug who said "On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other days and other fields will bear the fruits of victory."

You can chose to not believe that axiom, but I do.

As an aside, my dad was the officer rep for the Sea Raiders, a fast pitch softball team sponsored by SUBLANT.  Went to all their games.  They didn't survive either.

sid said...

You mean like unfair extrapolation of couch potatos' skills?

Whatever though.

I'll bet some sailing team folks would have done wonders here...

Would have taken them over D1 ballers any day.

FOD said...

No, the cheap shot is meant for your comment "...never mind the fact that many of those same football players you seem to enjoy denegrating whenever you have a target of opportunity are serving at the tip of the spear during a time of war - almost 50% of the football players of the graduating classes over the last decade have chose to serve their country as Marine Corps Officers.  Several have paid for their decisions to attend the Naval Academy with their lives over that same period or have acquited themselves very honorably in battle.  Do you even know one of them?  You remind me of Roosevelt's poem about the man in the arena - LOL!"

This has nothing to do with denigrating "football players" serving at the tip of the spear... no one is doing that.  And your being reminded of Roosevelt's man in the arena is way way off target on a blog where 90% of the readers are active duty or veterans. Most here have the t-shirt.

Redeye80 said...

For what it is worth, it seems that those who are most avid supporters of Navy football are those who decided that a career in the Naval Service was not in thier best interest.

Just saying.

GoNavyFB said...

LOL!  I guess I fail to understand your point - other than to try to argue mine by pointing out a spelling error on my part.  None of the 4 you listed as "famous US Navy Footballers" that "all played Navy Football as well" are credited with earning a Varsity Letter in that Sport during their time at Navy.  Try again.

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