Tuesday, November 15, 2011

Russian Navy Staggers On


As long as they don't export more of these things - I'm not worried all that much. I just wish they would deploy a lot to, ahem, help with our ASW readiness.

Via our friends at SLDInfo;
The Russian government is turning its attention to revitalizing Russia’s fleet of cruise-missile and multi-purpose attack submarines.

They are able to do so with the apparent completion of Russia’s fourth-generation Project Mk 955 Borey-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine and its new RSM-56 Bulava (NATO code name SS-NX-30) Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM).

But the production of cruise-missile and multi-purpose attack submarines has fared even worse than Russia’s strategic nuclear submarines, leaving the Russian Navy with 8 attack su­­­­­­­­bmarines designed to engage other ships and 19 submarines designed to attack land-based targets with cruise missiles. Though still functional, they will soon reach the end of their designated lifespan since they were constructed during the 1980s and 1990s.

Without urgent corrective measures, Russia’s submarine fleet could decline to fewer than 20 operational ships in a few years.
...
The focus of the Russian submarine replacement effort is now on the new Project 885 Yasen (NATO code name Graney) class nuclear-powered multipurpose attack submarine.

Being a multipurpose ship, it fulfills two roles– that of traditional attack submarines and that of Russia’s cruise missile submarines.

As an attack submarine it would replace the Akula attack submarines, and as a cruise missile vessel it would replace the Oscar II class ships. Although work started on the first Severodvinsk in 1993, with a planned launch for 1998, financial considerations halted work for most of the 1990s. Construction resumed in 2000 but delays in production continued due to financial problems as well as technical updates and modifications. The submarine was then scheduled to launch on May 7, 2010 to mark Victory Day over Nazi Germany. However, technical problems delayed the date again to June 15, when President Medvedev attended the launching ceremony.

The Severodvinsk is named after the city in which it was built. Designed by the Malakhit Design Bureau and built by Sevmash Shipyard in the northern Russia city of Severodvinsk , the boat has a double hall and a single shaft. It is 120 meters long with ten compartments. The Severodvinsk displaces 9,700 tons on the surface and 13,700 tons when submerged. It has a maximum speed of 31 knots when submerged. The submarine is equipped with mines, torpedoes, 24 long-range cruise missiles for attacking distant targets, and short-range anti-ship missiles. The torpedoes are launched through eight 533 mm and 650 mm torpedo tubes, while the cruise missiles are launched via eight vertical launch tubes. The cruise missiles include the 3M51 Alfa SLCM, the SS-NX-26 Oniks SLCM and the SS-N-21 Granat/Sampson SLCM cruise missiles, and the SS-N-16 Stallion anti-ship missile. They can be armed with conventional or nuclear warheads and have ranges up to 5,000 kilometers (3,100 miles). It has a 85 member crew, suggesting a high degree of automation.
...
The Russian Navy still has several types of multi-purpose submarines inherited from the Soviet period. These include eight Oscar II class cruise missile submarines. They are armed with P-700 Granit cruise missiles designed to attack U.S. Navy carrier task forces. They may be armed with newer cruise missiles that could allow them to attack land-based targets. The Navy also has four Victor III and three Sierra attack submarines.

The eight Akula submarines are mainly assigned to Russia’s Northern Fleet. Although the Soviet government began working on the more advanced Akula II type ship in the early 1990s, the post-Soviet collapse meant it was not until 2007 that the Russian government found sufficient funds to resume development work, starting in October 2008, to begin sea trials of the vessel.

The Russian Navy only began receiving delivery of the first of its eight planned new Lada class diesel submarines in 2010, whose construction began over a decade ago. Developed by the Rubin Design Bureau, this new type Project 677 diesel submarine reportedly operates more quietly than the venerable Russian Kilo-class diesel-eclectic submarine, which it will replace.

The Lada also has a longer operational range than the Kilos, which were constructed in the 1980s, and more advanced anti-ship weaponry. The Russian Navy wants to have eight Lada submarines by 2020, and more later, but problems with the propulsions systems used by the first vessel of this class, the St. Petersburg, have delayed completion of the other two ships whose construction has already begun.

As an interim measure, the Navy is building six new improved Kilos based on a vessel that was previously only sold to other countries (such as China). They are supposed to join the Black Sea Fleet in a few years. The Black Sea Fleet, based in Sevastopol, currently has a single Project 877 Alrosa submarine.
So, what is the new Russian Submarine - a Type IX, X? I've lost count since I was Transformationalized in the late '90s.

MTH & AW1, Norman is busy - help me out here. While we are at it - let's do a Type review.

Type 1: Hotel, Echo, November. That is easy.
Type 2: Charlie, Victor, Yankee?
Type 3: Oscar and Delta?
Type 4: ...... you take it from here, I don't want to look too dumb. I think I got my Type 3s right. Mike, Papa, Typhoon, Akula, Sierra all flow in there somewhere. I need a Cold War OS/AW/IS right now.

180 comments:

LT B said...

Want to get good at ASW?  Learn to chase those freaking subs coming out of Colombia.  Those little buggers are hard as can be to chase around the open ocean!

Byron said...

Personally, I'm damn glad the Oscars are going out, they were a stone b!tch to kill in Harpoon. It would take as many as 12 Mk 46 LWT torpedos to kill one of those subs and they might get their missiles in the air before you did...

Maogwai Cat said...

I miss acoustics... 

Grandpa Bluewater said...

All the better to use a Mk48 HWT my friend...

ewok40k said...

USN might get there soon with all the LA's build in 1980s having to retire...

Byron said...

Grandpa, in the Harpoon gaming world, happiness was Kuznetsov 15000 yds to port, Kirove 15000 yds to starboard and 4 Mk48 ADCAPs on the way :)

Surfcaster said...

Naming the lead ship after the city that builds her in a last ditch effort to get something out of the yardworkers & managers? Snippets spread across the Interblab indicating he russkie yardbird & yard management needing more than a refocus of sorts.... Outsourcing to France in order to restablish skills (yes, different ships).

I would need to defer any yardbirding to B but it must be tough to be motivated to build ships that far north. That bleep is cold! Like tongue stuck on frozen metal cold.

UltimaRatioRegis said...

That may be good training to find the 80-odd SSKs which will be running around the SPODs of the Peninsula That Shall Remain Nameless....

AOD said...

I'll get worried if they ever fix the Buluva missile and actually have a successful test.  Until then, still laughing.

BTW, does a Cold War Era OS have yellow nicotine stained fingers or orange cheetos stained fingers?

MR T's Haircut said...

Phib, glad to help out.

Type 1: Hotel, Echo I and II and November
Type 2: Charlie I and II and Victor I-III
Type 3: Yankee I and II and Delta I-IV
Type 4: Papa
Type 5: Alfa
Type 6: Oscar I and II, Sierra I and II, Akula
Type 7: Typhoon
Type 8: Mike

so we would be up to Type 9 me thinks

Acquisition Specialist said...

You forgot the Cold War STs (Sonar Technicians).
<span>Rooskie Nooskies</span>
Type (Gen) 1 - Correct (The Hen Class, H=Boomer, E=Missile, N=Attack Boats).
Type (Gen) 2 - Charlie, Victor, Yankee, Delta, and Papa(1) (Y+D=Boomer, C+Y+P= Missile, V=Attack Boats).
Type (Gen) 3 - Alpha(7), Sierra(2), Mike(1-sunk), Typhoon(6), and Oscar(13) (T=Boomer, O=Missile, A+S+M=Attack Boats)
Type (Gen) 4 - Borei(3-4), Akula(18), and Graney(3) (B=Boomer, G=Missile, A=Attack)

The Papa was a single boat in the type, launched in 1968 with a double titanium hull, the fastest sub - but loud.

The Typhoons were the largest at 48,000 tons and quiet.

Sierra was a follow-on to the Alpha.

That's what I recall...

MR T's Haircut said...

Type 3 and 7 are SSBN
Type 1 Hotel was an SSBN
Type 1 Echo was a SSGN
Type 1 November was first SSN
Type 2 Charlie are SSGN
Victors are SSN
Oscars are SSGN
Mike is sunk I think
Alfas were unique titanium hulled SSNs

MR T's Haircut said...

Papa was a SSGN platform...

your types and classes are wrong.. sorry ST 

MR T's Haircut said...

Papa was a Type 4 SSGN
Oscar Sierra and Akulas are type 6's

Tom Mowry said...

Former Cold War OS here and ATACO instructor, Mr T's Haircut has it right, we use to memorize this stuff. You all need to stop being scared of these darn things, give me a Seahawk and a FFG with a tail and we will put a whooping on them any day. Byron it may take a more than one MK 46 for a hard kill but if the SOB is turning he is not shooting. The idea is to hem him in tight and then make him run fast and deep. The faster he goes the more noise he makes, and the deeper he is he can't shoot either. Once you damage him he just gets louder. A soft kill can often be as good as a hard kill.

cdrsalamander said...

Do I get partial credit - or do I need to schedule a re-board?

MR T's Haircut said...

Partial credit, extra watch and pick up your PQS from my in-box..

Tom Mowry said...

Your right and I believe the first Alpha had a liquid sodium reactor. They had problems with the core during testing and ended up having to remove the back half of the first one and putting a new aft section with a more traditional plant. The back half was buried in Siberia or something, probably dumped on Bear Island.

Tom Mowry said...

Charlies where SSGN's they used to follow the carriers in trail at about 30 NM. You would pick one up in trail as soon as you passed through the straits of Gilbrator. Victors were used for ASW, no missles. They would protect the boomers on there way down to the box. There was a picture of one on the surface on the cover of time in the 80's. The Moinester had wrapped their VDS around the Victors Tail. Yankee's and Deltas used to patrol off Bermuda in the Yankee Box. Tail ships would be assigned to "Box Ops" at times to play.

ewok40k said...

and on Red side 60 Backfires sending a volley of 180 AS-6 at CVBG :)
Aegis this!

MR T's Haircut said...

Alfa was also unique in her Turbine configuration she could go, well lets just say damn fast...  I think they lost one off the Azores.

MR T's Haircut said...

Yankee Box.. old memories there... 

Charlies are still in use.  I think the Russians leased them to India also.  SSN 7's on the CI and SSN9's on the CII...

more mindless prattle on my hard drive...

Byron said...

You forget how far away an OscarII can be and still shoot... and that double hul makes a critical hit hard, unless you get a good hit on the props and bust a seal.

Byron said...

Badgers and Backfires and Bears, oh my! :)  The good old days, 24 Tomcats with 240 Phoenix and the carrier trying to look very small, knowing there was going to be a few leakers.

AW1 Tim said...

We tracked an Alpha once that was running full-bore, flat out . We had CZ contact at 480 nm.  That thing was burning deep & dark lines on our grams. Absolutely amazing. I am convinced that the Soviets were doing that as an example to us of what she could do.

  She was designed to act like a down-hill running back, dive deep & fast enough to outrun our torpedoes and break through any defensive measures to get at our carriers or our boomers if they could be located.

  Unless we caught one unawares of our presence, she could probably only be taken out with a nuke.

Aubrey said...

Err, no more figs...

Can you still get the kill with an LCS? Silly question...

AW1 Tim said...

Mr T:

  I believe it was a November that was lost out there.

MR T's Haircut said...

I dont forget.. lets just say it is about the same distance from Talhassee to P'cola....

MR T's Haircut said...

Could be.  Disk is full.. hard to retrieve files sometimes...

MR T's Haircut said...

Yep

MR T's Haircut said...

used to actually cruise in EMCON A

MR T's Haircut said...

Eees Okay Signor, theese are not subs, they are really how you say? ah yes.. turtles....

Byron said...

Which means your helos won't have time to dunk, which means it's Viking or P-3 time... If I didn't mention it, I really hated to have an OscarII stalking my CVBG

Byron said...

How effective was the VictorIIIs?

MR T's Haircut said...

Byron, the plan in the old days was to have a FF or FFG out on the CZ's prosecuting a sub to keep it out of range of the CV.  The SH-60B processor was actually a pretty good system designed specifically to prosecute Type 2/3 Subs. 

MR T's Haircut said...

Pretty effective...  they had one Victor III deployer that was detected by ASWOC Lajes.  Lost when it chopped the STROG.  Wasnt detected until it outchopped the STROG weeks later....

SouthernAP said...

What no love for the Viking? I heard plenty of time from both Cold War AW's and Cold War trainned TACCO's that they would kill for 1-2 Viking from the carrier plus an H-3 that could dip working in conjuction with that Frigate on the outer CZ on a sierra track.

cdrsalamander said...

Ahhh .... the prince of darkness.  I think I know which one you are talking about and the year - even the hull number --- but I don't think we can get that specific even today about that stuff in that detail.

I still want to meet that CO. He had a good boat and knew his water.  That and the CO of the Tango in the Med back in late '90.  Made quite the impression on an Ensign who read all the message traffic ....

ewok40k said...

alas, no more Vikings, no more Spruances, soon no more FFGs, there will be only LCS...

Spade said...

Of course you can still get a kill with an LCS.

So long as you have the right module, the helo, and the weather is good enough to launch.

But so long as you have that you can get a kill.

ewok40k said...

One thing I wanted to see, but Soviets never released, was testing the 650mm carrier killer torp. I am 99% sure they tested it on an old DD, and results must have been spectacular, to say the least... these things are bigger than Long Lance!

Byron said...

You mean you'd have a helo/ship out to the second CZ?

C-dore 14 said...

@Byron, Yep...that's where I did most of my operations with the CVBG.  The best part was that I was far away from the CV and the DD that my Commodore rode around on.  In those days, however, the TACTAS FF/FFGs in the Med operated independently from the CVBG and reported to CTF-66.

C-dore 14 said...

@MTH, You're bringing back some long nights for me and I'm getting tired just thinking about it.  On one "ASW Line" period we tracked an E-II that sounded like a freight train (I still remember the frequency) for several days in the Central Med.  Unfortunately, the next period involved a Charlie (with a new improved screw) that my SQR-18 didn't get a "whiff" of.

cdrsalamander said...

Smoking Datum?  Sure, LCS can do that ...

cdrsalamander said...

C-14. What was the progress?  Tandem 4-blade to single 5-blade to single 7-blade to the Toshiba Special?  I forget.

Byron said...

And hope like hell you could nail the Bear before he got the CV on the Big Bulge...

SouthernAP said...

Are you sure it would be smoking? Wouldn't it just be some black fuel oil and floating debris on the water?

C-dore 14 said...

CDR S, I forget.  We believed this contact had the "Toshiba Special".  Neither of two FFs nor the FFG had any contact although a couple of the P-3s had "sniffs".  After the fact CTF-66 tried to convince everyone that the sub had never come into the Med but none of us believed them.

C-dore 14 said...

@Byron, In '76 we were making a Trans-Pac in EMCON A with the ENTERPRISE CVBG.  One day our FFG, which was well in the van, was told to light off our (POS) SPS-52 and search.  Shortly afterwards we picked up an air contact at the radar's maximum range (I was stunned considering how poorly it usually performed) followed by the Big Bulge.  The AAWC vectored in a section of F-14s who escorted it for the next couple of hundred miles through the formation, which by then had come out of EMCON.  We went back to normal steaming with the next stop being Subic.

cdrsalamander said...

"Adminstratively inchop'd and administratively outchop'd"

MR T's Haircut said...

53cm would probably do just fine...

MR T's Haircut said...

Byron, Yep what C-dore said.

MR T's Haircut said...

Makes it easy to establish zz for the expanding circle...

MR T's Haircut said...

ewok, we're spending all our money on welfare, and immigration and demt interest... no money for ships.. sorry..

MR T's Haircut said...

Phib,
yea, I remember the hull number also.  Prince of Darkness.  Yep we cant get into it  in any detail even now no doubt.   ;)  I read the same message traffic and I used that deployment as a trainer for my ASW Module and when I was an Analyst at TSC Sigonella in the early - mid 90's.
Know about the Tango also... Great deployment of a Type 3 Diesel.  Good gate keeper for the Med.

MR T's Haircut said...

C-dore, that would be around 89 time frame...  A classic gram cut at the school house... a few of my friends had on top time in SH-2F's of all acft...

MR T's Haircut said...

Toshiba.. ass hats helped the Russians with the milling equipment and assistance in Cavitation reduction in certain prop and blade configurations.   No matter, we only needed that info half the time for the "Magic Assholes"...

MR T's Haircut said...

Yep, just like no one believed the VIII came in..  

good stuff... stuff of legends.. we dont do ASW like this anymore... dont know how..

MR T's Haircut said...

Been there... love it when the Bear comes calling.  Nice and shiney and HUGE!

C-dore 14 said...

MTH, late '88-early '89 to be exact.  We got underway the day after Christmas and were on the Line until early January (I made a point of reporting "No Liberty Incidents" in my daily SITREP out there).

C-dore 14 said...

@MTH, "Oaktrees" from little "Acorns" grow.

C-dore 14 said...

@Tom, I want to say that one of the SPRUs lost her tail to that Victor.  Sometimes they would intentionally try to snag it for intelligence purposes.  In this case it was probably inadvertent.  A friend of mine who was on PETERSON had photos of some of the Victor's crew cutting the array loose.  

However, if it was MOINISTER that would have been her second lost array.  She grounded her tail/IVDS in the Med in '86/'87.

MR T's Haircut said...

I know of what you speak. During this time same week I think we invaded Panama.

I did some time on the ASW line as well.  Loved it.  I was in HSL-36 during this time frame just reported and was probably cruising on a Knox class in North Sea for NATO Ops and then getting ready for REFTRA down in the Carib for our 90 MED deployment that was not to be due to Desert Shield / Storm.

Anonymous said...

They have fixed it, you can gett worried now.

DrT said...

Yes, yes absolootley. The OODA loop is out dated (if you dont know it means observe, outrun, duck, aim).
LCS has newest tactical advantage, utilising Sprint, Hide, Identify, Track. Sub can not keep up.

turtleairships said...

Ha.   made me smile there.......
 my  "flying turtles" were being solicited by sketchy colombians early 2001.

C-dore 14 said...

MTH, Panama was in Oct '89 while we were in the shipyard.  This took place around the time our airwing shot down two Libyan aircraft inside the "Line of Death".

MR T's Haircut said...

Gotcha

MR T's Haircut said...

Cold War OS?  I'm going with both

C-dore 14 said...

I'm with MTH on this one.  Those were the days when they had metal "butt kits" attached to the ASAC's SPA-66 as well as the NC-2/PT 512.

C-dore 14 said...

All this Cold War talk reminded me about how different the emphasis was between the Pacific and the Atlantic Fleet back then.  PACFLT focused on war at sea strikes and gunfire support and only did enough ASW (all active of course) to meet TYCOM training requirements.  In LANTFLT it was all ASW (mostly passive) all the time, multi-national exercises, and keeping a constant track on anything Soviet. (It wasn't until I was a CDR that I saw a Soviet ship other than an AGI close up).

Oh yes...another difference was the paranoia in the Med about "liberty incidents".  The only liberty related thing we worried about in WESTPAC was Fireman Timmy arranging for his Subic Bay girlfriend to put him on "legal hold" about the time the ship was ready to head for the IO.

Byron said...

Operation question: back in the good/bad old days, how many ships were normally assigned to a CVBG? I'm asking because if an ASW escort is working out to the second CZ, that leaves an awful lot of ocean to cover. In computer Harpoon, we usually never had more than 3 AAW ships and at most 8 AAW ships. I typically kept my ASW ships in the forward arc, from about 60 degrees either side of the course line. I beat the hell out of the ocean, too, as each ship always had a helo out, and the Vikings were always busy. And since you're thinking, what about the rest of the coverage? Always had a tail end charlie FFG in case a fast SSN decided to sneak in from the rear. Worked pretty good, rarely if ever got hit by a REDBOAT.

C-dore 14 said...

Byron:  My last WESTPAC/IO BG during the Cold War ('84) had a CV and 7 escorts (1 CGN, 2 DDGs, 1 FFG, 2 TACTAS FFs, and 1 FF without a tail).  My last Med Cold War BG ('88-'89) had 8 escortd (1 CGN, 1 CG, 1 DDG, 1 DD, 1 FFG, 3 TACTAS FFs, and one FF w/o TACTAS).  The LANTFLT group tended to operate two TACTAS FFs in the second CZ with one or two closer in.  In reality we hardly ever operated together except for inchop, outchop, and a major NATO exercise.  The CV usually had one of the CGs or the DDG in company and used the non-TACTAS FF as a plane guard.  A bit misleading because most of the ships (except mine for some reason) spent most of their time in port due to fuel costs.

C-dore 14 said...

Byron:  My last WESTPAC/IO BG during the Cold War ('84) had a CV and 7 escorts (1 CGN, 2 DDGs, 1 FFG, 2 TACTAS FFs, and 1 FF without a tail).  My last Med Cold War BG ('88-'89) had 8 escortd (1 CGN, 1 CG, 1 DDG, 1 DD, 1 FFG, 3 TACTAS FFs, and one FF w/o TACTAS).  The LANTFLT group tended to operate two TACTAS FFs in the second CZ with one or two closer in.  In reality we hardly ever operated together except for inchop, outchop, and a major NATO exercise.  The CV usually had one of the CGs or the DDG in company and used the non-TACTAS FF as a plane guard.  A bit misleading because most of the ships (except mine for some reason) spent most of their time in port due to fuel costs.

Mr T's Haircut said...

We also had great environmental support, ONI interest, ASWOCS and SOSUS and VP support.
We had DIFAR and CZ specific VLAD sonobouys and we had great training.

My FF had a tail and we were pretty good with it. Hated humping bouts out of the mezzanine. I remember we had a vertrep of bouts one time.

MR T's Haircut said...

Make that BOUYS! stupid smart phones

Anonymous said...

SSGN=Missile Boat

Anonymous said...

SSGN=Missile Boat...sorry MR T

Surfcaster said...

LCS can't get to the operations area and the one free Atlantic oiler is doing Africa Partnership GFFG sheet. Maybe that's why they're building a bunch, so they can leap frog the gas & beans.

Kinda depressing. Have to remind myself not to think too much or I'll need to run to the packy and get some liquid barley or potato based products.

Surfcaster said...

BTW - how do you say "PowerPoint" in Russian?

Surfcaster said...

BTW - how do you say "PowerPoint" in Russian?

MR T's Haircut said...

I remember they used to tattle tale us all the time.. Okeam, Moma and Prymora/Primora and the feared... but laughed at Balzaam

MR T's Haircut said...

And they all had wives or girlfriends named "Candy", "Mandy", or "Brandy"

MR T's Haircut said...

um.. sorry, my Dad was on your cruise as an AT1 on Big E in VA 97.. you guys also went to Australia and Tasmania... seen the cruise book...

MR T's Haircut said...

To counter this threat, the Cold War ASW players had great environmental support, Tactical Oceanography and we were well trained.  We WANTED to put the warshot on target.  We also had great tactics and ONI databases we had to memorize at rote.  Every Prosecution was a new Intel goldmine.  We had great equipement and the UYS-1 processor in LAMPS and P-3C was awesome.  We had  outstanding sonobouys and the DIFAR and VLAD allowed CZ prosecution. 
We had SOSUS and TAGOS and ASWOC support and VP delouse of PIM and AOR.

We had dominance..

I miss the Leahy Class and Knox Class boats... nothing like an old Monkey JR check... 

MR T's Haircut said...

yea to contrast my ASW Module Officer tour on Enterprise in 2000-2003 we had a CG for shotgun and MAYBE a DDG as SCC...  and a SSN...   Wow how things change...

MR T's Haircut said...

Got you.. not trying to bust your balls... Your numbers of hulls are more precise than I can provide.  I forgot about the Borei

MR T's Haircut said...

We did lack diversity training though... could explain where all those Bouy replacements went and why we dont have money to do ASW excercises anymore.... priorities...

Bistro said...

A subject about which I never talk. I'm rather surprised by how much some of you do.

Of course this site generates mucho concern about the ++++ of chinese PLAN and its submarines.

I realize it's acoustics and that's a science and there is nothing but mystery about that.

DeltaBravo said...

Did someone say VIKINGS?  HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAAYYYY!

C-dore 14 said...

MTH, Unfortunately we went over with the CVN but didn't return with her.  Assignment of escorts in those days was a lot more flexible than it is now.  In fact, the formal establishment of CVBGs as we know them now didn't happen until late '77.

AW1 Tim said...

It was fascinating to go to work and be a part of a team that KNEW it's business and worked together so very well.

My only complaint was the transition from P-3b to the P-3C's. The way the tactical crew sat in the P-3B was a much better arrangement, to my mind, than on the P-3C. By sitting all side-by-side, we could talk to each other and at the SS-1 station, I could lean over and see the Tctical Plot, and easily talk with the Tacco rather than use the ICS, the drawback being it wasn't recorded, however.

 We were like greyhounds on the hunt, tracking those great beasts and closing in for the kill.  Lofar & Difar were good, but when we got the CASS bouys, the active solutions and tactical flexibility got a whole lot better.

P=3C and then the P-3CUII brought an interesting problem: With the advent of the computer, thE AW "A" School dropped a lot of the math section from it's syllabus. They figured that the computer couild do the work for you. They didn't realise how often those early systems dumped onstation, and often at the worst possible time. We didn't know about the loss of math until one mission where the system dumped and I told my SS-II  to just do the work on the gram, calculate it by hand. He gave me this blank stare like I had three heads or something. I quickly found out he didn't know how to do it, so I fugured everything myself.

  Afterward I was ready to give him hell about that, until I found out the whole story.  Within a few months all of the math was back in the syllabus and the problems solved.

  We used to be so damned good at ASW. Considering the tech available to us today, we should be even better. Like shipbuilding, this all comes down to priorities set by leadership. I'd offer that, from this old AW's view, leadership has been failing our Navy, and our country, for quite awhile now.

cdrsalamander said...

Nothing below you won't find in any of Norman Polmars books.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

Delta, are you a fellow Norskie?

C-dore 14 said...

Or Tom Clancy for that matter.

ewok40k said...

if only acoustics were that simple... depending on conditions you can't hear sub a mile away, or hear it loud and clear from 30 miles...

Byron said...

Or even the tactical simulation Harpoon, which I've played since the early 90's...and which was used by Clancy along with one of Harpoons creators, Larry Bond, to write two books: Hunt for Red October (which got Clancy a visit and a talk with the CIA) and Red Storm Rising, which is the fictional account of a non-nuclear war between NATO and Warsaw pact, and if anything is even more "detailed".

David Govett said...

In  a geopolitical pinch, Russia could buy subs from Disneyland.

Tom Mowry said...

Whoa that's not good. Even as an OS we had to know how to calculate harmonics, and the component of speed in the line of sound in our head. It made my head hurt sometimes but we knew how.

Tom Mowry said...

Byron that would depend on whether we were more worried about the outer air battle or the subsurface threat.

Tom Mowry said...

You mean Hoovers not Vikings right?

Tom Mowry said...

the further you are away from the BG the better acoustics you will have. Remember the big threat for the majority of the cold war was the Charlie not Oscar or Papa. They were carrying a nominal thirty NM missle, or about the first CZ. So they would just sit back behind the carrier and wait for the order to launch if it were ever to come.

Tom Mowry said...

It was a very good processor, as long as you knew how to manage your directional bouys and understood the phantom PIC. The SQR 19 was slicker than a dogs a$$ when it came to processing, and the FFG was a fairly quiet platform to work from.

SCOTTtheBADGER said...

Mike is on the bottom off of Norway.

sid said...

And you oft times had to pour something into them to quench a fire...

Nothing like sitting on a SPA-25 in 30 degree rolls while the boat is manuevering to UNREP, a smoldering buttkit with the aroma of stale coffee and 3 day old nicotine wafting about, and a fresh CICWO in close proximity....

Time to talk about chitlins!

sid said...

BTW, does a Cold War Era OS have yellow nicotine stained fingers or orange cheetos stained fingers

I have since found that if you spill enough rot gut tequila all over your hands repeatedly for years...those stains eventually go away.

sid said...

Toshiba...

SO wanted to buy a Toshiba tv recently...

Told her that if she brought it in the house that she would find it broken in the back yard.

F_*K TOSHIBA!!!

AW1 Tim said...

Yup....... that was so much a part of what we both did. I remember that when I went back to college, they awarded me 16 credit hours in Oceanography, just for being an AW.  :-D

I can still remember virtually all of that math, and have taught my 13 year old the basics of it, and how the ocean works, etc.  You never know what kids might need in school.

AW1 Tim said...

 Yup.

  And anything realted to Carter or Clinton. Especially the latter.

MR T's Haircut said...

Sid, you are a rare man of principle.  I like that!

MR T's Haircut said...

Bistro,

We have not mentioned any sub parameters. or any detection techniques or specific hulls.  No Beadwindow yet on this thread that I can detect.

Anyways the past is the past.. this is lost to antiquity now.. we are about 10 percent as capable as we once were...  but we do ASW differently now with Common Operating Pictures and Maritime Domain Awareness..

I have forgotten more than we teach now..

MR T's Haircut said...

Love it.  I always loved doing LOFAR Gram Analysis.  Amazing to tell how fast, how long, Who, and why from a few small blurred lines on paper..
we always had our Magic Assholes...  most of us only needed a freq to do figure the rest out..

MR T's Haircut said...

Tom, Vikings were called War Hoovers.. the noise the engines made... and the occasional dirt bag in the crew...

sid said...

Talk to this guy Bistro...


Nothing discussed here that matters.


Besides, it appears the Chinese know all about our current efforts.

Certainly enough to know how to counter them with a boat hook.

Heck, they probably are building most of the infrastructure for us anyway.

Grumpy Old Ham said...

I wouldn't take a Toshiba laptop (or anything else) if it were given to me...except perhaps straight to the dump or recycling bin...f'in a$$hats.

Grotopotamus said...

Hmmmmm.  http://xkcd.com/970/ 

DeltaBravo said...

If you go far enough back, I'm sure I am.

Grandpa Bluewater said...

"Dust upon the sea".

Byron said...

Thank you, sir!

AW1 Tim said...

Of course. a lot of folks might not realize just how the November Class was supposed to look and operate. She was the first of the Soviet Nuke attack Boats, and they've come a long way from this initial design, I think.

"The initial mission of the November class was to maneuver outside of American ports and attack them with large, thermonuclear tipped torpedoes. These monsters were designated T-15, and had immense dimensions, being 1555mm in diameter, and 23 meters in length!  T-15 torpedoes used a gas-steam power plant, and had a range of 45-50 KM. The November was to have a single tube for firing these, and two standard 533mm tubes for regular torpedoes mounted abreast in the bow.  Tactical doctrine was to quietly approach the designated harbor, then launch the thermonuclear torpedo and make it’s escape. Soviet strategic analysts felt that the destruction of harbors and facilities would impede American support of a war in Europe, since the majority of supplies and troops would have to come by sea."

here's a link to the initial concept.

http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/nns/627/list.htm

C-dore 14 said...

MTH, During my '72 Tonkin Gulf deployment PRIMORYE used to station herself in the middle of Yankee Station where the CV operated, usually where the downwind leg ended.

MR T's Haircut said...

SIT FOUR!

Sean said...

I casually mention to people that "those bastards [Toshiba] tried to kill me"....it usually gets people's attention.  At one company I guess I said it enough when I heard that one of the Engineers actually asked "what was the name of that company that Sean hates so much"??!!

Let's review - sell modern milling technology that has exactly ONE application - the milling of quieter propellers for submarines.  And what might you want to hunt down with your shiny new quieter submarines?  Why a US missile boat, of course.

A pox on them forever.

We actually hounded our ENG so much about his Toshiba laptop that he got a different one.

Sean said...

The invasion of Panama in '89 was the same time we were down in the Carib shooting torpedoes at the Autec range.

I asked the XO if we could apply for some ribbon coming out of the Panama event for providing "mission critical nuclear weapon support to the operation"

Hell, we were in range, I figured there had to be some Army or Air Force ribbon we could qualify just on that point of order.  But nothing ever came of my request.  Damn.

SouthernAP said...

C-dore,

My dad remembers being zip-lipped on the USS America in '82 just after NATO's Northern Wedding. One of the Spru-Cans as part of the escort force pulled into Edinburgh and onloaded a trailer and this Spru-Can then joined a convoy group that purposedly picked up the AGI tail and bounced into and out of Bergen and Oslo fjords while sounding like the America BatGru. Meanwhile the America dived into a heavy sea state storm only to reappear off Spitsbergn and then dive into a deep water fjord off Tromso doing combat ops. Talking him and some family friends from CVW-1, they remember the Soviets flushed a butt ton of Bear's into the Norweigan Sea looking for them and it wasn't until an F-14 got lost in the soup over Spitsberg and screaming for vectors home that the Soviets were able to find approxmately where the Carrier was. Before that they were following the Spru-can with the cool trailer. My dad remembers doing two full weeks zip liped on the ship, not even using the flight deck radios by the ABH's and the Flight Deck Coordinators. He said that was fun, in the sense that since he was the Line Chief of the A-6 outfit he had a pair of PC's welded to his hip as runners to either the Handler or to Maintenance. Meanwhile our own spy birds, spy ships and national technical means in northern England was getting all sorts of ELINT as the Red Banner Fleet went nuts looking for the America.

ewok40k said...

add to this, the same propeelers on the  Kilo subs in the PLAN now are facing IJN, erm, JMSDF...

Tom Mowry said...

Yeah when I taught ATACO school I used to teach the underwater sound and acoustics module. It's amazing what you can do when you understand the enviorment that you are working in.

Tom Mowry said...

I knew about the noise but not the dirtbags lol

Tom Mowry said...

I thought it was a Yankee, we used to call it the Yankee Datum didn't we. I remember they had an AGI posted over the datum at all times to prevent another Glomar explorer type event.

Tom Mowry said...

Yeah the photo on the Time cover shows a crewman trying to cut through the cable and you can see the squeeky 35 wrapped against it. I have a friend I can ask he was an OS on Moinester before he came to the Scott. I think after the sea mount the Moinester picked up the moniker Micky Mo, maybe someone else remembers.

Tom Mowry said...

Didn't a couple of V III's gang up on a 688 back in 87 or 88 and play tag? And I believe it was April 87 when they deployed either 3 or 4 at the same time and they went quiet and deep and ended up with one off New London, another off Norfolk, and I think at least Kingsbay GA. There was a lot of panic in C2F when they did that.

Tom Mowry said...

The 18 was a good tail just worked from a relatively loud platform....

Tom Mowry said...

LAMPS I was an ok bird if you could get past the chip light.

Tom Mowry said...

We were originally scheduled to be one of the tail ships in early 1988 so we would have done the hand off. Unfortunately we got reassigned to Operation Ernest Will and end up in the PG. No ASW during that cruise. ASUW all day and all night.

Tom Mowry said...

Ah the joys of a conventional CIC, our butt kits were next to IFF box alongside the OJ 194 or even better the OJ 197 OSC.

Tom Mowry said...

Alright so what are you trying to say about OS's. LOL

MR T's Haircut said...

Blashpemy!

MR T's Haircut said...

C2F only panics now when they have a diversity quota to brief..

MR T's Haircut said...

We used a sonobouy SLC as a butt kit once to see how long it took to fill up.. about 3 days if I recall

MR T's Haircut said...

sounds like ViestFjord ops...

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