We've all heard it; "We don't leave our men behind." "We will come back for you." "You will not be forgotten." Really?
We all see the ubiquitous POW/MIA flag, but does it really mean anything - does it have an experiation date?
A quick review:
United States Navy Master Commandant Richard Somers was one of the first officers to enlist in the new Navy at the turn of the 19th Century. The young officer and his men fought gallantly in America’s first naval war against the States of North Africa. He died with his 12-man crew of the USS Intrepid on September 4, 1804 while engaged in a secret mission during the Battle of Tripoli.We have a window - a closing window - to get our Sailors home. We know where they are; we have the people to get them.
Today the first Navy commandos lie abandoned in mass graves in a foreign land.
When their bodies washed up on the shores of Tripoli, the bashaw - the king of the pirates - invited a pack of dogs to devour them as American prisoners of war looked on. These 13 naval heroes remain buried today in mass graves in Libya.
We even had the ability to get them home ... until about 3:30pm EST today when after being on the brink of getting the funding to bring them home, and after stating for so long to family members and supporters that he would support bringing them home, Sen. McCain (R-AZ) stated that he would no longer support it.
Yes, that Senator McCain. Of all people; he killed it.
What seems so straight forward, isn't. This has a nasty past going back years. A book could be written on this project - as a matter of fact it would make a great book - but instead of doing that here, let's focus on one critical part that was played in killing this. A part played by one of our own; CDR Renee Richardson, USN - head of the Department of Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel.
She has an email trail - one where she strangely doesn't describe her position in the matter the way one would suspect. In an email to the family of Master Commandant Richard Somers in 2008, she fails to identify herself as being in the Navy; no big problem I guess. In the second email from this year, she did admit she was in the Navy, but didn't state that she was head of the Department of Defense POW-MP office.
Imagine you are someone in the Somers family line. Don't poo-poo the time-gap either. For those of us who can trace our family lines in the USA pre-nationhood, 200 years isn't that far. Heck, I have two family Bibles that date back to the 1820s.
Anyway, put yourself in their shoes ... then read these two emails.
----EMAIL1 - 7SEP08 ---Who is CDR Richardson? Well - you can listen to her in the video below.
Questions on Repatriation of Intrepid Crew
TO: William Kelly [Intrepid Project]
Sir,
I recently came upon your site concerning the "Intrepid". Having just finished "Six Frigates", "Jefferson's War" and "The Pirate Coast" I was looking about on the internet for additional information, what a very interesting bit of history.
I am curious about the repatriation however, as the responsibility for repatriation prior to WW II usually seems to fall to the Service, unless the individual(s) have already been interred--in which case the Service will decline the request (as the mariners have been interred, it is likely the Navy should and will say "no". Additionally the Navy/Libyans had a dedication ceremony in 1949 indicating the Service considers Tripoli to be the final resting place of these brave souls). Or the cost of repatriation falls to the individual family(ies) of the deceased.
1) That being the case who would bear the cost of this repatriation?
2) Assuming the US Government/Service might choose to absorb the cost, why should these remains (which are properly buried) receive a priority of exhumation/transportation over the 80,000 plus remains around the world awaiting excavation, and identification from WW II, Korea, the Cold War and the Southeast Asia conflict? The families of the "Intrepid" crew, know exactly what happened, they blew up, and they were buried. We even know where some/most/all are buried "Tripoli" in the Protestant Cemetery, along with several Italians and Dutch. That is not the case with so many of the lost from WW II, Korea and Southeast Asia, while the team at Dover is no doubt very good as you put it, they are a limited and costly resource that is engaged in the work to identify and repatriate those who had no real resting place, no grave, no identity even of the remains--and living immediate or at the least first and second generation family members awaiting disposition.
3) Do all 13 families desire the disinterment of the comingled graves?
4) If not, is the encouragement of that disinterment not potentially repugnant to present-day descendants of the deceased and should their wishes not also be respected? As a mother, I for one would not desire that my loved ones remains be disturbed or removed from the finalresting place. As a tax-payer, I can think of better uses for those funds as well.
5) The graves have no names, they merely annotate that these are sailors lost in the explosion of the "Intrepid", thus we know not who is in what grave and the potential cost to discover that is prohibitive and of a much lesser priority than the identification of more recent losses.
6) Although these are indeed brave men who died engaged in the war to thwart the Beshaw and the Barbary Pirates--an enormously significant and formative action in our nation's history, what exact purpose is served in digging up, and dragging home the mixed and unspecified bones of these worthy seamen?
On a different note I have your well done book "300 Years at the Point" did not realize you were the same person (blog and book) until I was reading along on your site. Wonderfully enjoyable work.
Renee Richardson
-- EMAIL2 - 22JUN11 ---
From: "Renee Richardson"
To: XXX, XXX
Cc: XXX
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 1:39:37 PM
Subject: Cost of HR 1479
Dear Mr. Gregory, Ms. Hastings and Mayor Glasser,
I watched with wonder as HR 1497 was approved. I am sure that all of you are very pleased. The information that abounds on the various websites dedicated to the mission of repatriation for the crew of INTREPID (lost 4 September 1804) is mostly right, but not completely. On your own site you should ask Mr. Kelly to properly annotate the chronology for the events below (taken from your site and presumably taken from his blog or his book):
"After decisively defeating the enemy in a number of skirmishes, Decatur sailed the Intripid [sic] into the harbor disguised as an Arab trader. He recaptured and sank the Philadelphia without firing a shot and without any casualties. Then Somers, with a dozen volunteers, reentered the harbor, having filled the Intripid [sic] with combustibles. Unfortunately, during the daring nighttime raid the Intrepid prematurely exploded in the harbor. The bodies of Somers and his crew washed ashore the following day and were buried in a nearby cemetery by prisoners from the Philadelphia. An unkempt memorial marks their graves."
First this chronology suggests that the action taken by Decatur and that of Somers was within a similar time period. Decatur burned the frigate U.S.S. PHILADELPHIA in February of 1804, Somers failed fire-ship mission took place on September 4, 1804. Second the bodies were not buried in "a nearby cemetery." Rather after being exposed todogs, the elements and the ire of Tripoli's residents, Bashaw Yusuf Karamanli allowed the bodies to be buried in a communal grave area by some enlisted from PHILADELPHIA along with the Ship's Surgeon, Dr. Cowley; all of whom were the Bashaw's hostages.
Nowhere on the miscellaneous sites dedicated to this cause does anyone annotate the fact that in the 1790s and the 1800s the captive European slave population in Tripoli of people taken from pirated ships, was at a minimum (the ones whose names were officially recorded) 600 people. Most of them (unlike the surviving crewmembers from PHILADELPHIA), where never ransomed or returned to their native lands, rather they were worked to death and buried in the same communally designated area as the sailors from INTREPID.
Additionally the remains uncovered during construction by the Italian road crew in the 1930's were not readily or properly identified as being Americans or from INTREPID. There is no evidence (except the political expediency of post WWII Relations) to suggest that the remains were not merely those of other unfortunate wretches who died in Tripoli. The only anecdotally evidence we have is from 1949, when it was in the best interest of the government of Tripoli to cement relations with the U.S., and suddenly those five unmarked graves are alleged to contain the remains of American sailors from INTREPID. Thus on April 2, 1949 during a ship visit by U.S.S. SPOKANE a memorial service was performed, a plaque erected and the graves marked as being those of sailors from INTREPID. The ceremony was attended by the Commanding Officer of SPOKANE, Captain William Marshall; Rear Admiral Cruzen, Commander Cruiser Division Two; Mr. Orray Taff, U.S. Consul at Tripoli, and Prince Taher Bey Karamanli of Libya. But at the end of the day there is no definitive evidence that suggests that the five graves contain any remains of Americans, let alone remains from the dead of INTREPID.
But let us for the moment set all that aside and leap into the presumption that in fact the graves contain at least some of five of INTREPID's thirteen dead. And let us imagine that HR 1497 passes and DoD (because the Navy has regularly and wisely said "nay" to exhumation) is forced to repatriate the remains in those five graves--and no doubt sundry other remains outside Tripoli's original walls just for good measure--do you anticipate that these remains should jump to the front of the line?
Perhaps you did not realize there is a line and that the DoD organizations responsible for recovery and accounting of the Missing-in-Action already have a massive load to deal with. The dead of INTREPID, just for clarification are not MIA, they are buried andaccounted for. And by the way the MIA that are currently being looked for (WWII to Date) still have family members who were ALIVE when their loved one went missing. I did not see any additional funding or resources attached to HR 1497, which means the Bill, if passed, selfishly takes limited resources from modern losses. For WWII there over 73,000 missing in action, for Korea there are nearly 8000, Southeast Asia still has about 1,700 missing and there are some 125 from the cold war.
Not only is the endeavor of this bill selfish in the theft of resources (because it is political and noisy) from extant missions for families who still remember the missing (not as a historic footnote of family lore--but fremembered fathers and husbands and brothers and sons ) but it is potentially also a precedent setting bill that opens liability and government obligation for repatriation from 1804 forward: the First and Second Seminole Wars, the War of 1812, The Mexican-American War, The Civil War, The Spanish-American War, including losses in Cuba and the Philippines, The Philippine-American War, The Boxer Rebellion, the Great War (WWI) and the Banana Wars.
I do not dispute the desire of the descendants (217 years removed) to return their beloved. I dispute that our government (except in assisting permissions and access) is in anyway responsible, or obligated to repatriate these 13 sailors from a failed mission, who are accounted for and buried, not missing. If ten years ago, when Mr. Kelly first started his agitation for their return, all of you had formed a 501 C 3 Not-for Profit, not only would you have already raised enough money to have brought them back, and paid for the DNA testing and Family Reference Samples and genealogy to find all the living relatives, but there would likely have been enough left over to be providing Master Commander Somers' scholarships to all the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandsons-daughters-neices-nephews. BUT, more importantly you would not now be detracting from the real POW/MIA mission.
As a commissioned Navy officer from a Navy family (Grandfather, father, husband, father-in-law and son) I find it repugnant that this measure should take away from the current MIA/POW recovery missions, whether all of you intended it or not, that will be the consequence.
Respectfully in disagreement over this measure,
Renee Richardson
How can you square what she said above with her actions WRT the Intrepid Sailors? Hard to - I offer her this space to respond if she wishes to, but until then - I will let her words speak for themselves. Right now, I am gobsmacked at its callousness, generational bias, and totally lack of the concept of honor and keeping faith with the fallen.
I'm not sure her facts are quite right either. Working with Michael Caputo; here is a little light fisking of her email #2.
Para 5 -
"...they were worked to death and buried in the same communally designated area as the sailors from INTREPID."Wrong. The men of the Intrepid were buried over a mile from the area where slaves were buried. The Intrepid crew was buried in an
identified area, not among slaves and others. They can be easily located and exhumed. This is answered in The Intrepid Project's document "Answers to the Navy" point 1.
Para 6 -
"...the remains uncovered during construction by the Italian road crew in the 1930’s were not readily or properly identified as being Americans or from INTREPID"Wrong. From The Intrepid Project's report, "Final Burial Place", "According to Italian maps and accounts contained in “Secrets,” the engineers found the bodies close to the water while they worked on constructing a landfill for the future Al-Fatah Highway. With help from the Libyans, who knew the general location of the Intrepid enlisted men’s mass grave, the Italians exhumed the remains they found, identified them as American using bits of uniform and buttons, and interred the remains in a pair of empty Cemetery coffins" This is from our report "Final Burial Place..." on page 4 and comes from a deeply researched and heavily footnoted Libyan scholarly work called "Secrets of the Old Protestant Cemetery" in Arabic. The disturbing thing is the US Navy was offered a copy of this 2008 seminal research and REFUSED it.
Para 6 -
"But at the end of the day there is no definitive evidence that suggests that the five graves contain any remains of Americans, let alone remains from the dead of INTREPID."The parade of fail continues. The burial report above shows these are the men. There is no evidence to the contrary, and CDR Richardson is one of the only people out there who is still peddling this theory.
Para 7 -
"And let us imagine that HR 1497 passes and DoD (because the Navy has regularly and wisely said “nay” to exhumation) is forced to repatriate the remains in those five graves—and no doubt sundry other remains outside Tripoli’s original walls just for good measure—do you anticipate that these remains should jump to the front of the line?"Amazing. First of all, the legislation is very clear what remains are to be repatriated - her concerns were taken care of by Sen. Heller with very specific language as to what the repatriation must accomplish. "Sundry other remains" will not be affected. Also, why shouldn't they be the first to be repatriated? This is an officious statement of a frustrated bureaucrat with no facts or information. Has she started to take this personally? Is this a control thing with her?
Para 8 - She calls the family selfish and accuses them of theft of resources. Says remains of combat heroes are worth more when they have live relatives and this repatriation will start a domino effect of family requests for historic heroes' remains.
The entire paragraph is sophomoric and pedantic, answered by the "Final Burial..." report. Live families waiting for remains are answered in point 5. Domino affect is answered in point 2: There are no pending family requests to repatriate these other historic combat veterans while the families of the Intrepid crewmen have never stopped asking for their return. This is according to the foremost expert on foreign burial of US remains, Chris Dickon.
Para 9 - She accuses The Intrepid Project and others of being lazy in raising money to pay for this, ridicules "great-great-great..." relations all wanting them home. Then accuses those supporting return of our Sailors of detracting from the real POW/MIA mission.
First, she is WAY out of line. Second, if recovering combat heroes remains from confirmed locations is not the real POW-MIA mission - what is?
Para 10 - She calls this effort "repugnant." I think that the families of the crewmen of the USS Intrepid would find it beyond repugnant that an officer of the US Navy would contact the families of the fallen to load insults and misinformation on them. Did CDR Richardson take classes on leadership from CAPT Holly Graf?
I still cannot believe that we are going to let this pass us by. Have we fallen that far Navy? If there were the remains of a dozen Marines in North Korea near the Chosin reservoir and a small window opened to let us in to bring them home, would some Lt. Col. give the families the raspberry? Would General Amos shrug and tell people to get over it?
If you want more detail on this, you may recall the interview we did with Michael Caputo of The Intrepid Project on Midrats back in July. Listen to the second half of the hour for more details.
This isn't an isolated problem. There is something very wrong in our Navy when we spend millions of dollars on junk from a couple of million dollars in one year for "Diversity recruiting" for USNA, to the horrible waste created by Task Force Uniform - yet we abandon our dead like so many piddle packs.
It isn't just those from a couple of centuries ago either - ask the families and surviving crewmembers of the dead from GEORGE ONE.
All the words that some speak from a podium a couple of days a year about our "sacred promise" from the cheap seats just smells like fried air; hollow words of the paper mache patriot.
Someone give me a good reason why we don't bring our Sailors home. It isn't the money. Including the cost of fuel for military aircraft, estimated cost to bring our Sailors home is only $80,000 to $100,000 - a rounding error for what the Dept. of the Navy used to throw at the disgraced late Congressman Murtha's district. Then again - we are naming a ship after that thief who called our Marines murderers.
Admiral Greenert, Senator McCain. Shame on both of you. Shame.
UPDATE: I don't want to make this personal, but how do you square this way of thinking about buildings compared to human remains of roughly the same age?
Bladensburg's historic Bostwick house passed through three families in 255 years and each left their signature. Through renovations and additions, the centuries-old mansion has undergone as much change and growth as the town surrounding it.
In 1997, the city purchased it and Bladensburg officials are now waiting for the results of a feasibility study due this fall to decide how to best honor its legacy, while improving tourism and economic development in the area.I don't know what to say.
...
The main house built in 1746 passed to his son-in-law, Benjamin Stoddert, who became first secretary of the Navy.
...
One possible use the city council is considering would include a conference center on 1.4 acres atop Lowndes Hill, behind the main house. Other options include a museum and tourist attraction or a reception hall.
In the meantime, though structurally sound, the interior of the house has fallen into disrepair.
For now, a family with a love of historic homes is working to stabilize the structure and wall surfaces on behalf of the town. Navy officers Reneé Richardson and her husband Stanley Richardson, with help from their four children and Renee's brother Mike Rivard, spend their off-hours and leave time working on the home because they would "hate to see a historic home deteriorate," said Renee. Their Navy housing allowance is kept in a town account used for materials and supplies for the rehab work.
198 comments:
The were UNITED STATES NAVY personnel, killed in action against the enemy. They get brought home at US Govenrment expense, that is the start and the end of the debate.
How much did it cost to exhume, transport, and re-inter JPJ from France to Annapolis?
Cdr,
Why should you be surprised at this action by our Navy?
This is the same leadership which refuses to do anything to save USS Olympia, and will likely sit idle while she is either cut up for scrap, or towed offshore and sunk.
The Navy needs these funds/resources in order to satisfy the gaping, slack-jawed maws of the Millington Diversity Zampolits. They can't be bothered with non-rainbow issues.
In all seriousness, the shallow, insensitive Renee needs to be fired and sent packing. She's shown she hasn't the tools required for her job.
Aren't those mails both because of their content/tone and her dishonesty about her own position actionable offenses? At the very least an officer who strikes that tone with, however remote the connection and long ago the death, relatives of military casualties in direct reference to those casualties demonstrates utter incapability for any position with public contact, especially one where the contact is of such a sensitive nature as in her current position. Documenting this digitally in a way that directly links her name to the content confirms her stupidity. Digital content has been the bane of CAPT Honors...
Just walk away, Rene.
She is a disingenuous disgrace to the uniform. Unfortunately, she is also a reflection on a Navy that openly is contemptuous of the warrior ethos. Read some of the comments here and at USNI Blog regarding that, and you will get a glimpse into how someone like her can hold the job she does.
What would the Marine Corps do? What they always have done. No Marine is left behind, living or dead. Many Marines over the 236 years of our existence have given their own lives to recover the bodies of comrades. Not for the dead, but for the living.
First Sergeant George Humphrey died 92 years before his burial, as a member of the 6th Marines at St Mihiel. See the photo below. THAT is how we handle our warriors.
As pointed out in some of my posts on MIA returns, there is recent precedence in returning interred remains from foreign graves and not just from battlefield sites. This includes co-mingled remains (though in the case of the Intrepid crew DNA identification given the time and expeced dessication of the material will make individual identification unlikely), so that argument doesn't fly. I too am mystified at the DoN pushback unless you consider one possible reason - some staff person didn't want to take this on and leadership defaults to the path of least resistance (leave them where they are). Finally, the Protestant cemetery in Tripoli is no Normandy - see for yourself. The fact that senior leaders (active and retired) see fit to leave American servicemen's remains in conditions of squalor and disrepair besepaks volumes about the decline in heritage and tradition that has overtaken the Service - and they should be ashamed.
w/r, SJS
@John - that's not a SWO pin in the video - it's an IDWO pin (IP/IW/Intel/METOC). I think the person in the pictures and the person in the video are one and the same, sure looks like the same person and that qual is only a year or so old so timeline works. Shame on her....
CDR Richardson is a bureaucrat in the uniform of a Naval Officer. She has built a little feifdom where she has power over the families of the fallen. She is the one who they bow down to.
What she truly and clearly resents is that one of those families (through Congress) has the nerve to tell her what to do... her own words clearly state her position "...I dispute that our government (except in assisting permissions and access) is in anyway responsible, or obligated to repatriate these 13 sailors from a failed mission, who are accounted for and buried, not missing. ...."...I find it repugnant that this measure should take away from the current MIA/POW recovery missions..."
Those other "Navy officers" in her family (Grandfather, father, husband, father-in-law and son) should be ashamed.
This in no way represents warfighting first.
Spawn of the Global Force For Good.
I see one place where some money can be saved.
"Just walk away Rene".. LMAO a slight to the Four Tops with her name attached! Love the song though!
Sen McCain is a Douche Nozzle.
Phib, I am surprised you made no mention to the McCain and Lindsey ass stain on the Constitution that the current Defense Bill contains regarding the sec 1031 that calls for detention of people by the Armed Forces IN the United States indefinently and without trial by the Military, including United States Citizens...
McCain.. what a Douche Nozzle..
A few observations...she's a commander wearing what appears to be a DMSM as her highest decoration, but no sea service ribbon, no GWOT expeditionary medal, no OIF campaign medal, no AFG Campaign medal.
Telling.
Taking a quick look in the Naval Register, CDR Richardson is an 1830, Intel Officer, YG91...
Kind of a stupid thing to argue over. The sea is the grave of naval personnel and nobody dead came home from war on a navy ship save in the Royal Navy which brought back generals pickled in spirits from the War of 1812.
Those that go beyond lip service can see them today if they visit the cemetaries of our patriots. Medal of Honor winners are memorialized with a tombstone but there is no one there if the body was not recovered or was buried at sea.
Ask the men of Intrepid or Philadelphia if they want to be clawed out of the earth and returned home and the answer then might disturb one. I'm pretty sure they didn't give a damn. Dead is dead and dead and buried means less than snot.
I had an ancestor killed at Bunker Hill. Never visited his grave. Don't know where it is. My grandfather died and is buried at Arlington, never visited his grave either. Don't know where it is. In December I'll visit section 8 over by the Air Force Memorial.
Hallowed ground. It is made so by those that occupy the land and it truly does not matter where that is. Repatriation is a modern concept that does not matter and never did to navy men.
Horse hockey. Your very comments show the reason why so many in the country just don't get it.
It's one thing to be buried at sea, to go down with your ship. It's quite another to die in battle, and to have your remains taken by the enemy and then interred in foreign soil.
We have a duty to bring them home, wherever and whenever we can find them.
<span>I've been to many US military cemetaries overseas (Europe, North Africa (Tunisia), Phillipines) and all were well taken care of. </span>Unfortunatley, the same cannot be said of the grave site in Libya. If the Libyan "cemetary" was well maintained I would be ok with leaving them where they fell but that is not the case here. Either bring the cemetary up to standard or bring them home. Allowing the status quo is dishonorable.
FYI, the American Battle Monuments Commission has a web site devoted to many of the overseas cemetaries:
http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries.php
"Repatriation is a modern concept that does not matter and never did to navy men."
I'm not sure what I find more depressing, your narcissism or your historical ignorance.
Modern concept? Really? Review your naval history from John Paul Jones to Horatio Nelson and then come back.
I can go back a couple of thousand years for more examples if you would like.
I remember an observation I read about the death of our soldiers during WW2. It was decided we would show our resolve and bury our dead in the soil they fell. I know there were financial considerations but up to and including WW2, we buried our dead where they fell. It meant much to our enemy. They figured and rightly, that an enemy that honors her dead, would bury them in the soil they are fighting for, means they will not be defeated.
a consideration.
I'd suggest that instead of going directly after the good CDR, find out who signs her FITREPS and make repeated Congressionals to him or her regarding CDR Richardson's conduct and past statements. NO ONE likes repeated Congressionals. No one.
Hmmmm, the cost of repatriation is about equal to the annual cost of one useless bureaucrat wearing O-5 insignia ....
Contributor to the hard lefty Emily's List? Just tell her these guys are devoted Chicago Democrats who wish to return home so they can "vote" in 2012.
I have found a post I completely, absolutely and VEHEMENTLY disagree with here, Sir. The INTREPID Sailors (if in fact those buried there are the INTREPID Sailors) were honored at their burial site in 1949; to me it makes as much sense to repatriate them as it would all the GIs in military cemetaries wherever they may be worldwide. I actually disassociated with SCV over this issue due to their inexplicable insistence on desecrating the final resting place of CSS HUNLEY. Hallowed ground is hallowed ground, PERIOD. Let us remember their heroism rather than attempting to turn it into a political sideshow. The CDR is 100% right on this one, fellows.
As a retired SWO who once watched over a burial ground of War of 1812 POW Sailors (and Soldiers) buried in foreign soil, this makes me sick. Cause for relief? Absolutely! The sooner the better. Like Sal, my family has 6 generations of service (the last 3 USN) to abandon our fallen is a disgrace.
Note: Deadman's Island in Halifax, Nova Scotia is the final resting place for 188 American POWs who died while being held by the British on Melville Island in the Hailfax harbor. The city of Halifax has since created a park in their honor to preserve their resting places, none of which are identified or known. Thankfully the British kept decent records which were discovered circa 2000 and allowed the subsequent dedication of all POWs by name and command to be displayed upon a granite memorial. Come visit on Memorial Day, the current PEP crew has as an ADDU the honor the lead a Memorial Day Remembrance in conjuction with our Canadian brothers in arms. It's a quiet affair that is moving nonetheless, bagpipes across the waters have that effect. This year's ceremony will be a bit bigger affair I am sure.
In this case, repatriation would be a monumental task, one would have to exhume an entire island of "mixed remains" (some of which have been taken by nature - storms, hurricanes, uprooted trees washed into the harbor, etc...). Better to lie in an honored state and be remembered in situ (IMO).
AR - I paused the video and checked out her uniform. Looks like she is prior enlisted Army. Did a little digging and it appears she may have been in intel. Shook my head at the apparent SWO pin with no Sea Service ribbon. Really curious what the badge is above the apparent SWO pin.
I looked into the DPMO website http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/ and found some interesting info. CDR Richardson is identified by a coworker on a Facebook page from August as being the Chief, Outreach Branch DPMO. According to the Org chart posted online ( I assume she would fall under public affairs). I am surprised that she would be allowed to correspond, especially in the way she did, on a sensitive topic without approval or review from a supervisor. (I know, email breaks down barriers.) Also, head of DPMO's bio states: "Mr. Bob Newberry is the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for POW/Missing Personnel Affairs and Director of the Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office. He is responsible for leading the Department of Defense worldwide commitment to the fullest possible accounting of Americans missing in action from all conflicts. This mission includes the rescue of individuals who fall in harm’s way as a result of combat." Devil's advocate would say, the Intrepid sailors are accounted for. I say that this could have been a large win for morale and recruiting, but has instead become another disappointment.
John,
It appears to be the same person to me including the ribbon rack being the exact same minus the qual pin. She just appears quite a bit more haggard in the other pics. One thing is for sure though, if they are two different people, I don't think they are, they both are obviously poster children for the failure of the Navy's physical fitness standards...
No she's not. She's a political hack masquerading as a serving officer.
It would be one thing if these men were resting in peace in a place watched over by friends and/or allies. They are not. they are resting in ground that has been controlled by our enemies, indeed enemies of all freedom and liberty-loving peoples, since their deaths.
They deserve to come home. The sooner, the better.
Well, one more thing to be disgusted about. Kind of like the Marines buried under the landfill at Tarawa.
I wonder if she realizes she has gotten her footnote in the history books, and not a good one.
I would point out the grave(s) under not under US care or control, and are badly neglected. We aren't talking about the cemetary behind the landing beaches in Normandy.
Wouldn't it be nice if Spielberg and Perot agreed to donate the funds and and help the families make the arrangements to get the remains back to CONUS? If no family can be found for some, perhaps a private charity might be chartered somehow.
I doubt the Navy brass and McCain could block their reburial in Arlington once the families have custody and control of the remains in CONUS.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
Here's a screen capture.
URR,
More appropriate than you realize...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqAh1dQu_pg
Originally by the Left Banke
NH,
I can't speak for others; but for me this has nothing to do with politics.
Also, I would recommend that you look at the pictures of the site they are at and tell me how "honored" it is. I would also recommend that you read what it over at the Intrepid Project's website about what happened in '49 as well.
Additionally - do you think what TR did with the remains of JPJ in Paris was wrong? Should he have been left in a place forgotten and in disrepair? Really?
You need to get the grits out of your ears, son.
What was that Bill the Cat used to say? "AAACCCCCHHHHHH!!!!!.....TTTTTHHHHPPPPTTTTTT!" 8-)
I think the badge above the ribbons is the OSD (Office of the Sec Def) id badge. Would make sense as the POW/MIA folks work for the SecDef.
OF I don't think that's a SWO pin, looks more like Info Dominance or one of the other "everyone gets a warfare device" pins. Also, looking at the ribbon rack I'm not surprised by her opinions regarding repatriating the INTREPID remains. She's never missed a meal, much less her family for a deployment or three.
I was at a McCain for president dinner in Los Angeles when he ran against W back in 2000. I got the opportunity to speak to him for a few minutes and you could tell that he was not all there. Erratic yes, but not necessarily a douche nozzle. He does a lot of $h*t that doesn't sit well with me, but I just play it off that his elevator is stuck between floors. The douche nozzles are his staff weenies.
Perhaps you should CDR. Be upstanding and among the first to declare that you have visited the sights of your great grandfathers. I'm not like you. I have visited every single battlefield in the east and south. From Gettysburg to Shiloh. A native son of Carlisle. From the Revolutionary War to Antietam I've been there.
no no.
Are you some kind of ignorant boob that thinks the navy brought home dead men from combat?
You sound like it. You and Bryon.
John Paul Jones was left where he fell until he was repatriated. Does the term glare mean anything to you? It meant nothing at all. As Achmed the Dead Terrorist says, the Washington Memorial looks nothing like Washington.
You're an idiot. That's a given. Stood there at the cemetary in Rosecrans on Veteran's Day gazing at a tombstone for a man that was not there and never would be. Aviator. Killed in Vietnam. Medal of Honor.
Maybe one day he will be brought home by the likes of POW/MIA.
What do you have to say about the countless seamen who were enslaved to death by the muslims of Tripoli et al? Gonna bury them too?
Bistro, why are you so proud that you haven't been to your ancestor's graves? Why will you visit various battlefields but won't visit the final resting place of an actual combatant that is also a family member? Did something happen when you were a kid to make you resent your family? Did Mommy and Daddy not hug you enough?
I for sure don't run this place but as far as I'm concerned you can troll on out of here.
It's nice that you believe this.
I agree that the remains of the fallen heroes should be repatriated. But separate from the merits of the dispute, the disrespectful and insulting tone that she takes with the family members is grounds for a reprimand. I hope that the microscope that is being placed over her on this blog will embarrass the Navy into issuing one.
<span>"You should maybe start to think for yourself and not rabbit on in the one's shadow."</span>
<span></span>
<span>No offense, but I have told Phib he was full of the brown smelly...I just didn't call him a fool doing it.</span>
<span></span>
<span></span>
<span></span>
Brad, thank you for the information about the memorial in Halifax. It sounds beautiful and like a fitting tribute to the dead.
Bistro- Are you actually [fake] CDR Renee Richardson? I heard she has a habit of pretending she's not who she is and striking out at people on the Internet when she should be doing her job.
Bistro [Renee], tell us who YOU are, then take time to insult others who deal honestly under pseudonyms.
<p><span><span>I don’t know CDR Renee Richardson. Couldn’t even tell you what her designator is.<span> </span>But, I’d bet my next paycheck that she is not a combat veteran.<span> </span>The head of the </span><span><span>Department of Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel Office ought to be a combat veteran at all times.<span> </span>Someone who, at some point in their career, has witnessed and lived to talk about what life is like in a two way shooting gallery.<span> </span>What it’s like to lose warriors and what it means to implicitly know that your buddies will get your body out of there should you be KIA.<span> </span>Hell, between Iraq and AFG we’re generating enough qualified candidates to head that office for years.<span> </span>Only a combat veteran can have the proper understanding, empathy and respect to run that office.<span> </span>One could then expect such a person to make the right decision in cases like the INTREPID crew.</span></span></span><span></span></p>
Patrick,
You'll be amazed to discover that the wars were not fought in Massachussetts. That ancestor of mine....I see his name when I visit the National Museum of American History (you might know it as the Smithsonian). I may say that it was many generations ago and he died young.
here's a vector for you.
grandfather graduated from West Point in'32
father too in '57
me? I'm a navy capt.
You've never ever been to Arlington. Next month I'll visit Col Thompson and perhaps visit Colonel Horace King Whalen. It's a very large resting place.
The commander bans those he dislikes and those that disagree with him. Been there, done that.
Yet...
I see a Navy Reserve Good Conduct Medal on her fruit salad..
Army Enlisted good conduct also...
bet she thinks she calls herself a "Mustang".. lmao
I suspect she is pretty good at knitting afgans (blankets) and has a cattery in her apt...
My name is well known to our host here. I'm not a pussy and I post with my real name unlike our host. I used to post as
Satisfied?
Hey Bistro,
I don't see CDR Sal banning you from commenting on his blog site.
Disagreeing with someone's position is fine. Name calling; well not so fine.
I won't call you any names. I hope you don't get banned from this site. I would hate to see all the posts just agreeing with CDR Sal. Might as well not have any comments then.
If we are not going to bring home the Intrepid crew, then why not just not bring home anyone? Should they all just be buried in the country where they died?
Might save a lot of money by not bringing anyone home, but it would not be the right thing.
It disgusts be that I share the same uniform as CDR Richardson. As for her IDWO qual, the fact that she doesn't have any privacy settings on her Facebook page shows what a complete idiot she is..."information dominance" indeed. Yet another example of someone getting a push-button warefare qual simply because they're of a certain rank and previously incapable of earning a valid one. Her board probably consisted of "what does the acronym IDWO mean?" I guess now that she is "warfare" qualified she's more likely to make O-6...shutter at the thought.
It pains me to say it but there are too many asshats like this in my Navy today.
The American Battlefield Monument Commission does not have jurisdiction over the site in Tripoli, and the ABMC even told the CNO they should consider repatriating the men.
I back the Navy on honoring sailors in downed ships and aircraft, except thats not what this is. They were washed ashore, fed to dogs, thrown in mass graves. Her emails are indicative of someone who has never been shot at. The Navy should be ashamed.
I do? You're still here. Don't be such a martyr.
... oh ... and ya'll play nice.
Actually, Patrick, judging by his responses here I would venture to say that his family is ashamed of him rather than vice versa
DITTO on that. The Army and Marine Corps have borne the burden of these wars. Nothing like a Navy bureaucrat pontificating about honoring war dead when she hasn't (by the looks of her ribbons) been anywhere or done anything. The only thing I expected when I did my three tours in iraq is that if I died, I would be brought home. The families are asking. The VFW and American Legion support. It doesnt cost anything. It directs DoD to put no one in harms way in order to repatriate them. I am embarassed for the Navy.
"<span>me? I'm a navy capt." Oh, really? Methinks you have overplayed your hand, good sir. Please don't embarass the rest of your alleged peers any further, please. Here, this is for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8 </span>
HAFND
No bistro, he bans those that are trolls and lack any form of common sense and civility. Much like yourself.
Good heavens, Bistro, on a topic like this why on Earth do you have to turn personal and trollish? Who pissed in your cereal this morning? Or are you always like this?
Yet he was called narcissistic, and with no reason except that he disagreed. If "ad hominism" is to be avoided, perhaps the keeper of the porch should abide by that principle, too.
The Dude says...You're not wrong Walter, you're just an a$$hole.
Actually, I'm not satisfied. I don't know your name but you know mine. Still, you post away like you have a pair. Methinks not.
<span>"Yet I like to twit an anonymous man who does not have the courage of his convictions and still refuses to name himself."</span>
Says the courageous and BOLD "captain" Bistro...
Your real name, I'm sure.
Wow. I find her strident comments written in what appears to be a "personal" email and then bringing in her service to underscore her repugnance lacking in consideration of professional or personal boundaries.
Utterly mystified why she would think she could hide, and then whip out her rank to nail it through --and think she might get away with it. And the accusations she sends to the family --WTF? Does she not have enough to do?
Ah, but you do not hold the salamander's bag wherein my name is my name... even when I parse under the alternative name. Unlike most, the commander does truly know my name. Can you say the same?
I have visited the grave sites of generations removed, not that it matters one fucking bit to the good CDR's post. Ever been to Tomb of the Unknowns before? Ever visit Arlington for any reason other than to pay tribute to a dead friend's grave? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then you should delete your comment, Bistro.
She's got more chins than a Hong Kong phone directory. She CANNOT meet standards, can she?
First off, great blog and thanks! Second, as a veteran I can't begin to express my outrage at Sen. McCain, this Richardson person and anyone who thinks leaving Master Commandant Somers and his men in a crumbling, decrepit cemetery is any way honorable. For anyone who has been following this effort, we have a little petition going. I don't know if I am allowed post links here, but I will try. I you beileve as I do that Master Commandant (modern equivalent, Commander) Somers and his men should finally come home, please, sign our petition then get 10 people to sign and ask those 10 to recruit 10 more. The more noise we make, the more we will be heard.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bring-home-13-american-heroes.html
Bistro is an O6? eh.........really?
hey everybody back off........it was a humid day and nobody told her it was going to be a tad windy........ or that anyone was going to be taking pictures....... or that e mails are forever........ or that competency is not only expected but demanded......
If you can bring them home, and don't, yes, there is dishonor in that.
Ask a Lance Corporal or a Colonel. They will both give you the same answer.
I don't think you get it. Yet.
You never will.
I will be back there in 3 weeks.
None of my friends or shipmates are buried there, just ancestors and friends of my father.
The last time I was there I took my wife and 4 year old daughter and oh yes indeed we visited the tomb of the unknowns.
My dad came home from the war as did his father. I was mostly in the little wars you never heard of.
Pathetic. Anybody at all with a measurable IQ knows that we don't bring them all home. And never did.
aside from the socialy sensitive aspects , what kind of dollars are we talking about here?
C
C -- the Congressional Budget Office says between 85K and 100K
Don't pretend phib. You did. It defined you.
All your suck up friends and porchmates like you. They're the same.
Puss-n-bistro...
Just howso Aubrey?
I got the banishment for actually spelling nigger in lieu of the politically correct N word nonsense.
I'm an American.
I'm a veteran.
A word is a word.
Stephen Decatur is intered in his family plot in Philadelphia church named St. Peter's. St. Peter's is located just three blocks from the USS Olympia and about four blocks away from Independence National Park. I have been there and see the grave site.
nope, just joking. you may take it to the bank
And the 2010 picture is taken with my least favorite home state Sentor - Jeanne Shaheen, NH(D). Given that she's a fan of Jeanne, I'm willing to bet that she is also the Amy's List supporter.
Half the loaded labor rate of a GS12 Diversity Gruppenfuhrer.
Bistro needs a hug... He is out of OPTAR and his crew hates him, his XO asked for a transfer and he can't figure out what the noise like marbles are doing in the overhead...
Go back and hit that reading comprehension class again, Bistro.
As for honor, well, 'fraid they don't sell that on e-bay.
sjs:
you're getting into an area where a supervisor doesn't want to get to much work into the section.
C
I would also add that Stephen Decatur lost an illegal duel between himself and a fellow naval officer named James Barron, he was not killed in combat and he wasn't killed while overseas. Instead he was killed while dueling in Maryland. So I have no idea why you bring up Stephen Decatur into this debate.
did you ever wonder what it was like to have a shark as a Divo? Mine were mine, all of them. I left toothmarks on Bosuns and first LT's.
Why not?
The dead are not disturbed by their lot. Does everyone deserve an unending flame?
Yes, your keyboard courage is an inspiration indeed.
Where did I get such a notion? Huh. I think I must have heard it someplace when reading of your battlefield heroics.
If you have ever been to Philadelphia, you will note that nearly all of the tour guides will direct you to all of the church cemetaries that are around Independance National Historic Park. Why? So one can see where the founding fathers and mothers of both Philadelphia and this nation are buried. All in an attempt to bring history alive for the vistors both near/far and international. My last time in Philly, I actually met a nice Norweigan man who was dragging his family around to see the birth place of representative democracy and specifically to go and visit the burial plots of the famous USN sailors. The reason being was that he was a merchant mariner in the WW2, he was rescued from a life raft after his ship was sunk by the Germans. The guys who rescued him was a USN destroyer, he felt as if he owed the USN and the US a life debt for saving his life. In the end he had plotted all over the Nation via a GPS how to get to Annapolis, Quantico, Boston, NH, Maryland and all points in between where one could see the famous Naval Heroes burial grounds or visit museums and floating memorials dedicated to the US Navy.
"...<span>it is potentially also a precedent setting bill that opens liability and government obligation for repatriation from 1804 forward: the First and Second Seminole Wars, the War of 1812, The Mexican-American War, The Civil War, The Spanish-American War, including losses in Cuba and the Philippines, The Philippine-American War, The Boxer Rebellion, the Great War (WWI) and the Banana Wars."</span>
And there is an issue with this why?
sounds like if they skipped one diverstity convocation they'd have it made.
C
Butch:
you are not exactly right in your costs. take the wages and multiply by about 230%. thats direct and overhead costs. but o-5 and above as well as gs12 and above have additional costs that can be tremendous because they think that they have to DO SOMETHING. and that doing runs the costs way up.
C
thank you sir
we were speaking of heros were we not?
after the remark about visiting all of the battlefields...... bistro sounds like a ticket puncher to me.
C
Oh my kind of guy!
god forbid we set a dangerous precedent of doing the right thing...although, there are no other families asking for their members back according to the write-up...
How so?
You have a case in point do you?
Let her rip. Just go to town with your point you loser. Post, cross post, paste and move on.
Let me count: 52 posters are morons. One poster alone holds the key to facts, truth and honesty. Yeah right, Bistro. Everybody in this place is a moron except, of course you.
Check your math, Mr. Anonymous. Or may I call you Renee?
oh come on, y'all laughed when I self identified as a USN Captain. I R 1
seriously.
but honestly, I don't give a fuck about you.
I post by my name. Always.
Bistro,
What part about "if you can bring them home, and don't" did your career in the Navy not allow you to understand?
Are you the same Bistro who has whined incessantly in posts past when someone insulted you?
Just askin'.
Trick or treaters.
Standing in front of the porch.
Hurling insults.
Children in costumes.
Run along now.
I am sure they were all appropriately chastened, and learned to tremble at your mere approach.
But what does that have to do with your assertion that improperly interred American war dead shouldn't be repatriated?
<span>There are plenty of officers who have all of those ribbons and whose outlook is the same as Richardson’s or the Diversity Mafia.<span> </span>This includes many officers in the support branches (supply, JAG etc) who believe they are bad-assed warriors like the Marines who fought house-to-house in Fallujah just because they were in Iraq or Afghanistan and wear those ribbons.<span> </span>Richardson is contemptible, but she is just more evidence that the Navy is not dealing with its fundamental problems.
</span>
Look! How cute! Dressed as a "Navy Captain"!
Take a juice box and a candy bar, sonny, and be careful crossing the street!
CDR Richardson is the expert on this issue with access to all current and relevant instruction. Like her, I am not convinced that uniform fragments 'positively identify' bodies. I don't see anything on that site about the 1949 ceremony, either.. Additionally IMHO TR should have left JPJ's remains where they were. Then again, TR was as much a political grandstander as the SCV or certain people agitating to desecrate the final resting place of the INTREPID dead.
Well hot damn, Bistro is CAPT Graf - welcome ma'am
At one point in time Bistro actually made a sensible comment or two (OK, yes, it was several weeks ago), but at this point the most sensible thing is just to treat her the way I do a couple of other posters - namely just skip over any comment with her name attached.
sounds to me that a whole bunch of "suger daddies" could cover this thing out of "discretionary funds.
C
NH,
I think the Quartermasters at Isandlwana would agree with you on that.
I an not only an airmen that was in the Air Force from 1964 to 1967, one& one half years in Vietnam. Also in the American Legion in my home town also I'm in the P G R . In both organizations I carry the POW MIA flag to funerals and parades because iit means a lot to me,and should mean the same to ALL the people who ever put on an American uniform. I'm not real good using this computer but if I can get this out to someone in the know, I would like to carry the POW MIA flag upside down until they return the sailors to our soil and to there families .This is a time that we are in trouble and distress.
For the record - I have no idea who "Bistro" is. He does sound like some older trolls ... but no; I don't know who he is.
OMG I CAN POST AGAIN!
BTW there are still those First tennessean Soldiers in mexico to get.
Ya'll forget. Soldiers aren't all that important to the liberal mindset. AND who do you think the modern navy wants to attract?
So Bistro is exposed as a liar. Best to ignore trolls, they will soon tire and leave.
Im thinking Curtis.. or Jay....
My Name's Gruppenfuhrer... Forrest Gruppenfuhrer
Easy Ed.. us Navy folk... well we have contributed also.. bye the bye, I was deployed on 10 Sep 2001.. guess what we did on the days and weeks after Sep 11th.. hint.. we didnt go home...
toothmarks on Bosuns and 1st LT's? umm no Warrants in that group I promise you
Not deck puke or a nuke Curtis.. I was an Aviation Operations Tech Warrant... retired now and if you ever met me and we served together, you wouldnt be such an ass.. ok maybe you would be, but you would have manners...
HAHAH! That made me laugh out loud, or as you young people say, "LOL".
In any case he has no command of invective. Not up to local standard in the least.
As far as Sen McCain dropping his support for it, my guess would be that CDR Richardson's office specifically told him they didn't want this funding / tasking, and he didn't want to force something on the service they didn't want. Just my postulation.
As far as CDR Richardson ... regardless of whether you agree or disagree with her about what priority the INTREPID dead should have in the MIA recovery queue, her condescending and insulting emails to the descendents of the deceased is disgraceful to the uniform ... she should be relieved of her position for loss of confidence immediately. Of all the personality traits her billet requires, composure and bearing when dealing with families of the deceased must be one of the most important. She showed none of it.
G*dd*mned f*ckin'-a right, Grandpa! :-D
Gobsmacked. That Sen John McCain would not support, and this serving officer doesn't get it...makes this old Squid quite saddened; we appear to have lost our way. If I was buried, or POW, it was always my understanding, through many a briefing, that my country would come for me. That is all.
URR: You suffer no teacup in the china shop to live...reliably. =-O
Bistro if you don't have the stones to reveal your true identity we'll all continue to think you are [fake] CDR Renee Richardson online stalking like she did the Intrepid families.
How's it hanging... err... not hanging, "Sir"! LOL
TR [fake] CDR Richardson does NOT have access to all contemporary research and the Navy has REFUSED to review primary and secondary sources proving her and their position to be completely incorrect. As for the big whoop "Navy Ceremony" in 1949, after the boswain's whistle no flag officer has ever visited the crumbing cemetery to date. Never. Finally, if you think the voluntarily uninformed [fake] CDR Richardson is the final authority on this you can pound salt: The families want them home.
ole phib, what a liar. doesn't know my name....How could he banish me if he did not know me?
didn't watch, won't watch. who exactly died and made you the voice of hate curtis?
got a hard on like the rest?
these are the very small people, most of which never served a single day at sea.
No but McCain prevented the Congress from forcing the Navy to do the right thing by their earliers combat heroes. Same thing.
Sorry sister. I know who CDRSal is, and as the host of one of the most popular Milblogs on the Internet he gets a pass from me and all of us. You, however, are a gutless girl. If you had half a sack you'd man up and ID. So since we know you aren't who you say you are - since you won't man up - why don't you go back to shoe shopping, honey?
Want to "go fuck yourself" me like a man? Google me and let's talk in person. Yeah, I thought so. G'night Renee.
oh come on. I did. You missed it.
I really think that if we bring these fine sailors home that a mausoleum should be built for them at RTC Great Lakes. <span> </span>Make it mandatory that as Navy Recruits complete the "Battle-Stations" portion of boot camp, they spend a few moments in the mausoleum listening to the story of these men who established Honor, Courage, Commitment that was then exhibited by such men as Douglas Munro, William Badders, George Cholister, John Balch, Tedford H. Cann, Osmond K. Ingram, E.C. Bigelow and all other sailors who were willing to risk their lives for their ships mates and to prevent dishonor to the their Naval Service and Nation.
well michelle,
you may do as you do and imagine the world is the way that you wish it.
Of course you can, with music. You do have music yeah?
why not, you are one
Bistro has rabies?
no i don't but i'm alone here
Well, I'm agog at our lovely Information Dominatrix, who seems to be as woefully uninformed as Bistro.
For an intel "professional" she seems to lack some critical intel. First of all, it is true many of our war dead still lie peacefully in graves overseas. We did repatriate many. My father's uncle died on Guadalcanal and the USMC brought him back to lie in his native Tennessee soil.
But the operative word in all of this is "peacefully." I suggest our Information Dominatrix familiarize herself with the fate of the buried bodies at the old Italian Cemetery in Mogadishu a few years back when the Islamic Courts Union took over the city. And then contemplate a similar fate of our war dead if Libya turns into a similar cesspool of Islamic jihadism and radicalism. Which would have been completely uneccessary had we climbed through that window of opportunity and retrieved our sailors when we had the chance.
Jeeze man. Your letting some folks here egg you into becoming a raving lunatic about things that don't even relate to the topic at hand. Man you really need to let whatever anger you have against the host here go offline on private message and ditto for those that are pulling your chain. Your really not showing how to be a gentleman here and not showing how to be a leader. So why not quit getting pissed off at people with thier own axes to grind, debate the topic at hand. If you don't like the topic then don't dive into the debate. However, throwng a temper tantrum like a 2yr old isn't productive to making your words heard by anyone. You also need to learn that this is the internet and cardinal rule number one with the internet is that forums/blog comments/chat rooms/etc is that you can't win a debate. So why not just argue your postion to the best of your opinion and abilities; if you can't do that then just quit the debate and accept that some people are just aren't going to be converted to your side.
"<span> GS12 Diversity Gruppenfuhrer"</span>
Holy crap, Reg... I'm sooo stealing that. Well done, sir!
Wait just a darned minute, historian. There's a huge difference between, say, an allied cemetary in France... a friend and ally... and a hostile country where our troops were captured, tortured, murdered, and then had their bodies desecrated. Hell yes, bring these guys home.
CDR Salamander said:
"<span>NH,
I think the Quartermasters at Isandlwana would agree with you on that."</span>
BOOM!... for the win!
If you don't get the reference, maybe Naval Historian can scurry over to Wiki and bring it back for you, though it'll probably kill her to do it. :)
Bistro,
I am kinda lost here. Why are you so angry?
No one here is arguing that we could/should bring back/repatriate every soldier/Sailor/Marine ever killed or lost.
Everyone here understands that some are in an appropriate final resting place in foreign cemeteries and some are buried at sea.
But can you not concede that the case of the Intrepid Sailors is something out of the ordinary?
Burial at sea is time honored. But this is/was not an option in the case of the Intrepid.
Burial in a cemetery in the country of and control of an ally is acceptable, but that is not the case here.
No matter your feelings on the merit of this effort, the tone CDR Richardson took with the familes is simply unacceptable.
Are you against any repatriation? In any circumstance?
Finally, I must say that I fail to see the relevance of your statements regarding your service and whether or not you choose to visit your family's graves. The point here is that you do have that option, the families of the Intrepid Sailors do not.
I am nothing if not consistent GBW!
... and that comment is where you use up the last of your parole time. Have a nice day.
<p>A note on Bistro:
</p><p>-- He has been banned. I gave him plenty of room to run because he was banned before and brought back after we had a talk. He actually, in a fashion, had a position to argue from but again could not moderate his anger that everyone didn't agree with him and soon resulted on personal attacks on both the host and many sundry members of the front porch. We actually put up with that a little, just a little – but he took it too far. He then invited people to conduct sexual acts on themselves, others, and then with the host. That was it. As of this AM, he is gone. For the commenters and regulars here, I owe you an apology. I am the one who brought him back from the land of the banned. Actually, he is only the second one banned here since the JS-tool kit “upgrade” two years ago. The other one is, for the lack of a better description, a Nazi and holocaust denier. So Bistro - nice company you keep.
</p><p>
</p><p>Enough of him. Back to the topic at hand.
</p>
McCain, the RINO that keeps on giving...time to go home and help the Mrs. run the breweries, John...
a. Very sad I missed the Troll Barbecue.
b. Why does an alleged O6 have the writing skills of an MA3 after 6 beers?
Poor Bistro...
It gets real touchy when you run out of your meds before the beginning of the month...
Even the best skipper has to weather a storm every now and then...so don't sweat the small stuff, Phib ;)
I know that I wouldn't wanna be him, not for all the tea in China.
Like Curly Bill said... well bye...
"Becasue I was a captain... " emphasis on "was"....
Bistro,
lol I know you're reading this.. and you can't reply.. 8-)
I hope Bistro, err Curtis can still read here.. I bet he is having a freaking Anurysm reading but can't reply.. that is the best penalty..
I was thinking more like a drunken busted E1 who never got close to striker status.
Aw gee, Skipper, we were just funnin' with him. And here I had myself all loaded out with memes and everything. Shucks. :'(
And he was making a point that had a little validity to it...
Its only been in recent years -really since Desert Strom- that we've come to accept that all our dead will come home will always happen.
It wasn't always possible in the past, and in the case of sailors, lost at sea is a forever proposition.
May not be possible in the future, and folks should come to grips with that as well.
That said, this is a different case, and these long lost brave souls need to come home.
I like SAP's idea that they should be interred at Great Lakes and every recruit taught the significance of their tomb.
Aww... and I was gonna go play with him like a cat plays with a mouse. Now what am I going to do for fun?
Hey! Bistro insults everyone in sight and it's my comment that gets deleted???? WTF?
Geez, I just left for a couple weeks and what the...????
I have been absorbed in a project to reform our military awards (the awards themselves, not the awards process- I'm only a Marine, not a full-fledged deity you know), starting with the Combat Action Ribbon. (Cursed be the day February 17,1969!)
The sidebar discussion on CDR Richardson's lack of sea, campaign, and combat awards is probably the first time I have ever seen lack of expeditionary service cited as UNqualifying someone for a purely bureaucratic billet. And, strangely, it gave me a nice warm glow inside. Thanks, Porch.
Second, it reminded me that we need to utterly destroy the morass of non combat distinguished/superior/meritorious/commendation/achievement medals that clutter the higher end of the salad bar. Honoring CDR Rene multiple times for diligently scribbling away in an office with medals that have far higher precendence than what a junior enlisted man can expect for exceptional performance risking his butt under enemy fire is just ridiculous. It's also indicative of the sad state our awards system is in - too many, too misdirected, too counterproductive.
Geezzzzz .... I can't make anyone happy. See, this is why I could never have multiple wives ....
Ah, you had it comin'....
Zombie troll! I saw it first! Stomp stomp stomp!
I don't see what a British defeat has to do with desecrating graves....
(Never trust an Ay-Dub with a wrench...) ;)
As to who I may be, all I will say publically is John Finn and St. Barbara. Still don't think it's wise, prudent OR proper for DoN to underwrite this grandstanding. Why can't we just remember the heroism? The Sailors are dead and buried. AND we know where they are. They are neither MIA nor POW.
Get the strawberries. Captain is on a rip tear again.
SAP, what a great idea.
All hell breaks loose without an 03 NCO to crack skulls.
SAP,
It might even prevent Navy Exchange from commemorating the Centennial of Naval Aviation with skivvie shirt featuring an Army fighter....
wow, i get busy and don't visit for a couple days and 205 posts?!
That Bistro 'character' - each comment he wrote that I read is a few minutes I can't take back ever.
For the record, Wharf Rat says bring these guys home. If you look at known burial locations of US Service members, they tend to be extremely well taken care of. This is no way qualifies. No need to leave Cdr. Sommers in Tripoli. Also - do we know for sure that most of the Philadephia crew came home?
Dang right. I believe in the 13 Leadership Traits for Grunts: JJ DID TIE BUCKLE (but can swing a pipe wrench if that stuff don't work).
Contrary to CDR S's statement, she is not "head" of DPMO - that would be Bob Newberry.
SP - if you have the C2 diagram with her exact job title, please share. Thanks
Teehee... he deleted my comment too.
But I still got to laugh while I typed it. So that counts for something.
DB,
If I could - I would have kept it; but when I nuked him, and replies to his comments were nuked as well. He is still putting up some vial stuff that is getting autonukes ... but he also made some reasonable comments elsewhere ... but those are getting autonuked as well. He is just too unstable and nasty. As you know, sharp elbows are welcome as it a little commenting "come at be bro!" - but when you go psychosexual over and over ... well ... that scares the good people like Kristen away. Well, that and people like URR need to get their smelling salts. I think MTH likes it - but he is sick like that ........... :)
I may create 13 different aliases just so I can like this post more times....
Now, see, I don't agree with NH on this, but THIS is the way to argue your point in a thread like this! Reason and debate for the win...
CDR S,
Porch patrons that interact with, and antagonize, such trolls bear <span>some</span> responsibility for allowing this threadjack. Perhaps an occasional gentle reminder that says "Please do not feed the trolls" would help.
My $0.02:
Guest: We know. (hanging our heads in shame.)
But when he came back after being banned again, it was hard to resist calling him a zombie troll.
We're just all bad children. If Sal didn't keep us, where would we go?
CDR, as always, I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
DB, we are an astonishing assortment here on the porch, no? :)
I missed Bistro's resurrection, but aside from his foul mouth what really struck me was his childishness. I expect better social skills from my preschool children than what he had on display. Plus I think it was AR who pointed out that his writing level was primitive. If he's really a Captain, the Navy's got trouble.
Sal,
I dinnt even pertend to understand the psychosexual stuff.
Because it has nothing to do with timely and accurate predicted fires....
@Kristen, I think MTH broke the code on "Bistro's" identity. The "...back on the good ship LASALLE..." reference is a tipper. Regretably, he is an O-6. Whether he is USN or USNR is unclear to me.
@MTH, You're on target with the former.
C-dore, unbelievable. I hope he's not active duty. I can't even imagine what it would be like to serve under a man like that.
Kristen,
Whoever he is, he has his troubles. I wouldn't want them to be mine.
<span>I think MTH likes it - but he is sick like that</span>
MTH spent too many years inhaling those vapors from smoldering butt kitts...
It changes a man.
BTW...
I am not now...nor have I ever been..."Bistro".
(although I think I saw him at the farmacia in Juarez the other day where you can get the good dr....errr meds)
<span>Porch patrons that interact with, and antagonize, such trolls bear <span>some</span> responsibility for allowing this threadjack.</span>
Didn't have a chance to try it here but one very effective anti-troll technique I've seen work on other venues is to "Hayek" the swirling into the crapper conversation....
Just post a "Hayek" as a response each time and you will be amazed at the immediate calming effects.
You could go down to the truck dock, and Siminize the panel truck, or help me move the kegs of Guinness into the Beer storeroom.
<span>Whoever he is, he has his troubles.</span>
Well Kristen, there are some mighty strange ones out there calling themselves "Captain"....
Been busy w/ NARMY training. I missed the curfluffle. Remember, don't feed the trolls.
The USN went to a great deal of trouble to find and recover the remains of the crew of the USS PILLSBURY DD 227. She vanished during the retreat from the Phillippines, after the Battle of the Java Sea, she was cornered by HIJMS TAKAO and HIJMS ATAGO. PILLSBURY had suffered damage during the retreat and the Battle of the Java Sea, so it was a fight between 2 CAs, against a damaged 4 piper. There were only 4 survivors, and they died in IJN custody, and were buried on an Indonesian Island, where the remains of the bodies were found in the 1950's, basically just the dog tags.
The USS EDSALL suffered a similar fate at the hands of a IJN BB, a CA and 9 VALs. The five survivors were executed, and thier remains were also found in the Indonesian Islands in the 1950's. The point being, the USN went to the trouble of finding them. Bring Somers and his men home.
That was pretty surreal.
Very fair guest. I share part of that guilt too. I should have stopped him earlier.
"They prosper, who burn in the morning, the letters they wrote overnight." Then again, she may have still hit 'send'. Horrifying.
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