It isn't just a dirty little secret, no - it is a nasty dirty little secret that everyone knows about.
We have almost no Anti-Surface Warfare capability. Take away our ASUW capable TACAIR (they are too busy buddy-tanking on the way to support ground forces for a 30-min overhead time) and submarines (they're too busy looking for other submarines, remember there natch) - and most of our potential adversaries have us both in number and quality of ASUW weapons. We can barely shoot back. In ASUW, Joint is a joke BTW, so stuff that answer.
Few people love the Harpoon more than I do - but she is slow, dated, we have so very few - and we have sold the best version to our allies. Yes, the secondary anti-surface mode of the SM-2 is fun, but ......
We ignored ASUW because we had that "luxury." Well, not anymore.
Among other potential adversaries that might need sinking one day, the Chinese fleet isn't getting any smaller and isn't going to stay home anytime soon - at least the Japanese are taking it seriously,
As such, everyone needs to chant:
- Fit in a MK-41 VLS.
- Have as much commonality with the SM-2/3 as possible.
- Will leverage the Japanese program's experience.
- Multiple guidance options/warheads.
- Easily used in air, surface, and subsurface platforms.
An unsuccessful program will:
- Be called Transformational.
- Rely on GPS or any satellite system exclusively for initial, midcourse, or terminal guidance. GPS should be secondary at best.
- Tries to jam too many new ideas into one package.
- Be managed. No more program management - this needs leadership.
We are late, but that may be in our favor. If we started this 10 years ago, it would have been contaminated by the habits of the Lost Decade that gave us LCS, DDG-1000, and LPD-17.
This is a great opportunity for Navy to get its groove back and develop a weapon system that will make us proud. Go to it 100# heads --- and make sure you have some grumpy Bull-CAPT with you slathered with salt and operational experience.
Hat tip David.
As a side-bar to the discussion, little birdies sent me something for you to chew on; your lawfare meal of the day.
Among other potential adversaries that might need sinking one day, the Chinese fleet isn't getting any smaller and isn't going to stay home anytime soon - at least the Japanese are taking it seriously,
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries is developing the (X)ASM-3 high-speed anti-ship missile as a successor to Japan's Type 93 (ASM-2). The new missile has an integrated solid propellant/ramjet motor and a range of 200 km, or more. It reportedly includes a dual-mode imaging IR and active radar terminal seeker. The missile incorporates several 'stealthy' features including a low radar cross-section design and the use of low-reflectivity composite materials.USN in ASUW, better late than never.
Lockheed Martin Corp is to develop within 2 1/2 years a new long-range anti-ship missile, the Defense Department said on Wednesday.Let's hope that everyone takes a deep breath and looks at what has worked in the past in developing weapons - and what has not. We also need to keep in mind that the next few years will not be kind to programs that overspend and underperform.
The work falls under a $157.7 million contract from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, which has been responsible for some of the Pentagon's biggest technology breakthroughs, including the Internet's precursor.
The goal is to develop rapidly and demonstrate a ship-launched weapon that can knock out other ships "at significant stand-off ranges," an item in the Pentagon's daily contract digest said, without elaborating.
The work is expected to be completed by April 2013 in a joint effort between DARPA and the Office of Naval Research, the announcement said.
As such, everyone needs to chant:
Evolutionary not Revolutionary; don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.A successful program will:
- Fit in a MK-41 VLS.
- Have as much commonality with the SM-2/3 as possible.
- Will leverage the Japanese program's experience.
- Multiple guidance options/warheads.
- Easily used in air, surface, and subsurface platforms.
An unsuccessful program will:
- Be called Transformational.
- Rely on GPS or any satellite system exclusively for initial, midcourse, or terminal guidance. GPS should be secondary at best.
- Tries to jam too many new ideas into one package.
- Be managed. No more program management - this needs leadership.
We are late, but that may be in our favor. If we started this 10 years ago, it would have been contaminated by the habits of the Lost Decade that gave us LCS, DDG-1000, and LPD-17.
This is a great opportunity for Navy to get its groove back and develop a weapon system that will make us proud. Go to it 100# heads --- and make sure you have some grumpy Bull-CAPT with you slathered with salt and operational experience.
Hat tip David.
As a side-bar to the discussion, little birdies sent me something for you to chew on; your lawfare meal of the day.
The National Defense Industrial Association has spent 30 years providing free analysis to the Navy.
This year, a Navy lawyer convinced N8 that he can no longer accept any studies from NDIA because they haven't been competitively procured. One study that N86 had requested - essentially an industry view on what performance was needed / feasible for a new ASUW weapon - is sitting, unaccepted, while the lawyers read entrails.
Heh.
163 comments:
One thing I can tell you from playing thousands of Harpoon scenarios, including the scenarios I wrote: The Harpoon is a pitiful weapon in any environment where the enemy had any sort of decent anti-missile defense. TASM wasn't much better, both are slow and dumb and easily killed by enemy anti-air. The only way to get either through the defensive belt is to kill every emitter on the target and even then optically guided systems will get a couple. I've wondered for a long time why we had such lame weapons.
And only a freakin' lawyer could put a competitive value on zero. What a bunch of morons.
We best buy some of those Japanese ones to hold us until the DoD can figure out what they want. Wasn't there talk of some sort of Super Penguin to be made for armed SeaHawks to shoot at things?
Two most worthless officers in the Navy: JAGs, and Chaplains.
Gator, no offense, but you're dead wrong on Chaplains. Not everyone is an atheist, and those who aren't get advice, support and comfort from Chaplains. I knew of one that stopped an FFG from a Med deployment because the morale of the ship was so bad. They've got a job and they serve a valuable purpose. JAGS on the other hand...not so much.
And while I was never a JAG, [Full Disclosure: For my graduate degree I got a Doctorate in Jurisprudence from the University of California] I did send a lot of my sailors to them over the years, not for legal defense or CM recs, but to help them out with wills, civilian legal questions and a lot of stuff they'd have had to pay big $$ to some civilian lawyer that they got for free from the JAG Office. And I am more than willing to bet $$ that the legal opinion mentioned above came not from a JAG Officer but from the Office of Naval Counsel (or whatever they call themselves this decade) the civilian, civil service lawyers. As to the legal decision mentioned, all you need to find out is who requested that opinion, and who the requester talked to (cough, cough, lobbyist buddy, former FOGO) before he/she asked for the opinion. Follow the money, Sal.
ASUW development? Two words make it simple and effective and more than likely on-budget: China Lake. 'nuff said.
I HATED having a "Battle Jag" proof over all of our battle orders and intents.. it was in my opinion, cover your ass leadership....
simple.. Guidance Radar locked on your unit, you shine back. Emitter detected, you engage. Launch Platform runs, you destroy...
I PITY THE FOOLS!
Byron;
Spent 4 days on the ops on both sides of our state, and 11 months on the follow up of a study that killed TASM. Not because we wanted to, but because the reality of much more than the hardware/software/technology had become limiting factors to the point @ then $1.6M/pop, you'd most likely only be sinking white shipping who would not leave the sea lanes,,,,unless of course, the "rules" required the Soviets to stay clear of and not hide in among background shipping.
And slow....you shoulda seen my spreadsheet (Excel on a Mac512K did the honors) that managed to have 58 fully documented simulated engagements to review. And the one that showed seeker 1/2 width over time agsint a target moving perpendicular to the straight in shot (the best case), in which, I found the actual range of the weapon, and later had it confirmed by the now ex-project office guy who we had worked with on the exercise. He lied ...said they had too...too many big money concerns to tell the truth.
Lost decade? Crap, we've been institutionalizing these "Wrost Practices" (I cliam that descriptor!) for longer than a decade, just a few at the top still had some cajones then it seems. That we late 80s.
And then there was the missle gone off the plan over southern AL, with the A-6 in trail...back in my blog somewhere...about two good old boys, their dog and a pick up truck and a helo full of tree suited guys going in fast to a swampy area by the river....two TLAM QUASTs were the end of the exercise.
Two ways to "win" in the ASUW game:
(1) Fire effectively first
(2) Don't play
Only one of the two options actually accomplishes the national objective that lead to conflict.
So what does it really take to achieve option (1)?
a. see the targets farther away than he can shoot, and well enough to take your shot
b. fire the right number of weapons to guarantee hits (accounting for his defensive actions)
c. hit the targets hard enough that they can no longer employ their own weapon systems
d. close to defeat in detail / accept striking of colors
A lot of the focus on weapons goes into steps (a) and (c). No one ever wants to contemplate the quantities that are required by (b), especially if the targets can present a layered defense. More people need to pay attention to Capt Hughes' salvo model of missile combat.
Ken,
What is amazing it that with slight tweaking - those simple fundamentals have been true since the Athenians rowed out against the Persians over 2,000 years ago .... sad that we should have to explain that.
... and "d" is underappreciated.
Show me a military with no Chaplains, and I will show you a losing force.
BTW, I predict will we eventually have no chaplains in the US military given the wholesale embrace of modernism/relativism by the nation.
Another example of why "We suck."
Oh yeah, also practice warfare, not lawfare. Even if you can all of the things listed above, if you don't have the political will to protect your people until after you've been fired upon, you are in option 2, don't play. More often than not, that is where we are.
Dude, welcome back! Haven't seen you on here in forever.
Add: Have a weapon that makes the enemy have to cross the gap.
Also: Back it all up with ROE that allows employment of same weaponry at ranges weaponry was speced (and does) perfom best at. Note: Requires "Will of the People®," something in every scarce supply these days. Other note: Does not require lawyers, just common sense to defend yourself and the legitimate interests of your nation.
Yet another note: "VID" from Vietnam. And in the ASUW realm, I became a believer, during the tanker wars, that Ma Duece was the only effective weapon we had (sub set item was the M-60...but that was if you hadn't trained your .50 crews). If you fired with one of those, you could defend you did it in self defense, and no, the Boghammer was not just cruising within 5" range showing "hostile intent." Sad, but I think it's still true.....
Wow...the "Worst Practices®" list grows in how far back we've been doing ourselves (pun completely intended)....
So what does that say about an 1110 at the helm?
BRING BCK THE CUTLASS!
Many days I threaten to blog on how lawfare has taken the productivity of our nation, and the world economy as a whole to a whole new depth of "Bad."
Think about it: The labels on a ladder, the size and shape of a toy, to the battle jags, to those in our very Congress passing laws that will have to be evaluated by lawyers...and...who are paid on both sides of those battles. Add to it, who gets feelings hurt, and chase the deep pockets, not the responsible party(s).
Now add to the amount of money spent on this campaign alone. Consider it's "Law Makers" who got us here (Frank/Dodd/Gore/Rangel, and many on the other side of the aisle, too). Then the "Law Makers" extort $787B in one bill alone, and add OCare to our bill, then demand we fund their campaigns to get into office, to pass laws to undo that laws, and to make better laws.
In any other industry, where "price fixing" was done, it would be considered an immoral and illegal act, with even criminal sanctions.
Law: Where the lawyers all win, and the people are piSSed on and are told to be happy they're here to help you in your time of troubles.
And then we elect them once more....I'm not an anarchist, I just know almost all the "Law Makers" are now lawyers. So, they've made themselves indispensible, and we keep giving them money when we are having a tough time putting food on our tables as a result of their actions, and even the actions that will hurt us more being oepnly discussed...like cutting the military to make sure a multi-generational non-productive mentality won't vote them out of office. Don't forget, we respect them least of all institutions, moreso by the day, but we still had them the keys to head out on another spending bender....
/rant
Thanks. Been Taking care of some busines. Post retirement is a strange time.. Job had me away from home and doing some great stuff.
Snorkeling now, charging the battery getting ready to go on another patrol...
(Sigh) all true.
The Mk 48 can be shot from surface ships. NUSC Newport RI could kludge a proof of principle prototype up in 90 days. Yes, Virginia it is slow. No, once it is on it's way, cut the wire, shut the door, something will die.
Can we have some happy news? Just "look what the USS Dead Hero did on its own, the little engine that could redux." I need cheering up before Thursdays weekly outrage.
I'll be in my cave, sulking.
Grumpily yours,
Oh...and of all those dollars spent for political campaigns: Just what product/service was generated to be sold to create (and not destroy) weatlh or value for a customer?
Purely rhetorical here...
MTH: HEY! I never got my invite....no free beer(s) for you!
The Cutlass wasn't so bad, it was the engines that really sucked turtles, and the fact that it was a late 1970's plane, built in the early 1950's. I wonder how well it would perform today, with modern engines, and computer driven flight controls.
I agree! Welcome back!
So there are your "21st5 Century ideas" for Surface Warfare. Remember the fundamentals, those age-old axioms that have held true since antiquity. And develop and employ technology, training, equipment, doctrine, and tactics to achieve them.
Far, far too often, "think outside the box" is a signal for ignoring those axioms. Which, as the Gods of the Copybook Headings assure us, "with terror and slaughter return".
Some case in point:
Forward presence requires grey hulls. Always has. As we sink toward 240 and then 220 ships, the concept is irreconcilable with a smaller Navy.
Power projection requires trained amphibious forces able to make forcible entry with significant combat power. That combat power should include a NGF/NSFS platform to neutralize enemy firepower. The fact that we don't have one, and are told we don't need one, is incompatible with power projection.
Navies have to have staying power. Range, support, and a ruggedness of design in individual units the absorb punishment and not only survive but continue the fight. LCS and the scrapping of all our tenders and auxiliaries is incompatible with coming to stay.
And on, and on. Sorry, Grandpa. That will only make you more grouchy.
<span>So there are your "21st Century ideas" for Surface Warfare. Remember the fundamentals, those age-old axioms that have held true since antiquity. And develop and employ technology, training, equipment, doctrine, and tactics to achieve them.
Far, far too often, "think outside the box" is a signal for ignoring those axioms. Which, as the Gods of the Copybook Headings assure us, "with terror and slaughter return".
Some case in point:
Forward presence requires grey hulls. Always has. As we sink toward 240 and then 220 ships, the concept is irreconcilable with a smaller Navy.
Power projection requires trained amphibious forces able to make forcible entry with significant combat power. That combat power should include a NGF/NSFS platform to neutralize enemy firepower. The fact that we don't have one, and are told we don't need one, is incompatible with power projection.
Navies have to have staying power. Range, support, and a ruggedness of design in individual units the absorb punishment and not only survive but continue the fight. LCS and the scrapping of all our tenders and auxiliaries is incompatible with coming to stay.
And on, and on. Sorry, Grandpa. That will only make you more grouchy.</span>
<span><span>So there are your "21st Century ideas" for Surface Warfare. Remember the fundamentals, those age-old axioms that have held true since antiquity. And develop and employ technology, training, equipment, doctrine, and tactics to achieve them.
Far, far too often, "think outside the box" is a signal for ignoring those axioms. Which, as the Gods of the Copybook Headings assure us, "with terror and slaughter return".
Some cases in point:
Forward presence requires grey hulls. Always has. As we sink toward 240 and then 220 ships, the concept is irreconcilable with a smaller Navy.
Power projection requires trained amphibious forces able to make forcible entry with significant combat power. That combat power should include a NGF/NSFS platform to neutralize enemy firepower. The fact that we don't have one, and are told we don't need one, is incompatible with power projection.
Navies have to have staying power. Range, support, and a ruggedness of design in individual units the absorb punishment and not only survive but continue the fight. LCS and the scrapping of all our tenders and auxiliaries is incompatible with coming to stay.
And on, and on. Sorry, Grandpa. That will only make you more grouchy.</span></span>
Welcome back, shipmate. I need to get back to the grind too, but my resurgence is gonna take a little bit longer, sadly.
FWIW, guns don't need no stinkin' GPS. ;)
I still am entranced with the thought of transplanting a Palladin turret onto a warship for gunfire support and ASUW. High-caliber plunging fire has a quality all it's own.
You mean "warheads on the top of heads?"
Dude...I meant the real "cutting edge" Cutlass. On another note, Tom Quillan, is the all time top hours and traps Navy Cutlass pilot, and he's in the group of us that have breakfast every other Sat morning. This Sat being the next one. BTW, he was also an IP for Charlie Hunter, when Charlie was but a nugget. ADM Hunter has breakfast with us, too...Oh? Hunter, you say...that name is familiar.....
Open invitation to you "Salamander locals:" If you'll be near St Pete, FL on a Saturday, check in with me to see if it's the "other week." We can pull up another chair and shake hands with history. Even Marines are invited....and Army, too. Have a USAFA grad who was a RA-5 NFO, too....
yup... especially since there is little to no armor on the decks and superstructures these days. A few well-placed 155mm HE rounds will cause all sorts of interesting reactions.
Yes, if your enemy allowed you to get close enough to actually be within gun range...
"Have a USAFA grad who was a RA-5 NFO, too...." Now that must be a seriously crazy guy. Graduates AFA, goes Navy and then gets in the pit of a Viggie? Seriously nuts
I remember...told everyone I knew in Jax that this would be a good day to stay in a parking garage... or New York :)
He now is a contractor monitoring the contractors installing bomb detection systems in FL airports. Smart guy,,,but we can poke him from two angles...and it's funny to hear him tell the story of how his pilot said, when outbound from a BDA flight "I don't think we got good pictures" as the plane went into a serious, course reversing bank....
Byron, "gun range" can be a surprisingly long distance with modern projo/propellant/fuze design.
This is where we need the old Bu-Ord stocked with people like ballisticians and real world salty engineers and war experienced damage control specialists. Now we get programs run by MBAs with the dollar as the driver, not the warfighter. If we had effective leadership at the top I'm betting a little round table action would generate quite a few workable ideas that would not require a year of blue moons to complete, and that would actually PASS all opevals. But I'm betting aginst this scenario and putting my money on cost over-runs, schedule slips, GPS only, cooled IR, single mode, no decm, etc., etc. Something to fit right in with LCS and the LPD 17 SNAFUs.
In the '60s they were looking at an alternative to the KNOX called "Project Seahawk" that would have been interesting to see .... in included the MK-48 in its weapons suite in addition to the MK-46.
Check out our bud Norman Friedman's write up here.
"effective" naval gun range is determined by an 8% hit rate. So...toss 100 down at various ranges and check your dispersion pattern.
from a parctical aspect, sondier being the shootee with 100 rounds chasing you down, then seeing a slash just ahead, then just behind.........sort of distracting when trying to return fire...and the reason for "owning" the high ground in the "gun gap."
You bet. It isn't your gandfathers artillery anymore :)
Xformed sorry shipmate, retirement happened in June. I had an immediate job offer and got back in October. Been doing post deployment ESRA since...
Actually, the original design for the KNOX-class included tubes for the MK48 torpedo although none were ever installed. The torpedo room served a number of purposes until TACTAS was installed in the late 70s/early 80s. Two single tubes, which launched aft through the transom, were installed in some of the early ships in the BROOKE and GARCIA classes but they were removed in the early to mid-70s. The Spanish version of the KNOX (the BALEARAS-class FFG) did have the tubes installed.
Ok...beer(s) for you if you have to visit MacDill...or the surrounding area. Glad to know the employment roles do not include your name.
"as the plane went into a serious, course reversing bank...." That's the definition of suckage. Doing not one, but two trips downtown the same day.
Oh yea-what was that aircraft we had......... could carry Harpoon and Maverick, Rockeye, had a FLIR and ISAR radar.........a passable ESM suite and could scoot away at 400 knots? Could also do tanking? S-something, S-3 Viking maybe?
Oh right, we got rid of those , with lots of fatigue life left on them, so we could have more Hornets.
All this discussion about ASUW weapons is good and necessary, however, I'm curious about the status of our search capabilities and what kind of training we do in that regard. For me, the most difficult part of the ASUW problem was localizing the target, identifying it so I wouldn't be blowing some Panamanian bulk carrier out of the water, and tracking it until the boss (and his JAG) told me it was ok to shoot. It was hard enough with a squadron of S-3s, more dual-aircraft HSL dets than they deploy with now, and dedicated VP support. I can only imagine what it's like today especially if the DESRON and Group staffs aren't focusing on the SSSC mission.
Maybe someone who has been out there more recently than I can put my mind at rest.
Once upon a time those VS guys were my best friends in the world.
Hey, welcome back MTH! I was wondering where you were. Hope you're enjoying retirement.
With modern projo/fuze technology, the 8% definition will have to be adjusted. CCFs will make hits at maximum range a lot more probable than the old ballistic-only technology. A base bleed/base burn ERFB projo with modern propellants have the potential to increase ranges out to 80-100km and perhaps further. And unlike ASUW missiles, multiple projectiles can be fired very quickly and they cost a fraction of the $1-1.5 mil that missile cost.
Salty, Like with most communities it depends on the individual. I've worked with both JAGs and Chaplains (and had a couple of each work for me) and had good and bad experiences. An SJA with a warfare pin was an excellent addition to our BG staff since he understood both the law and the tactical application of it. Likewise, I gladly bought the beer for the two Trial Counsels at NLSO San Diego who assisted in the SPCM I did as an XO (8 for 8 with "6, 6, and a kick" for all).
Chaplains, as I told my wife, were "guilty until proven innocent" but I've worked with several who had good insights about what was going on with a ship and a nice sense of what could be dealt with by the command and what needed to be "elevated".
I wonder if we could get them back out of the desert? Considering the problems with JSF, an S-3C sounds like a right useful item to have on the carrier deck.
The Good News - and there IS Good News - is that DARPA is running this. They know how to short-circuit the procurement process that's been fobbed off on us and get things done.
C-dore,
Thank you Sir. It has been interesting. I am entertaining a job offer as we speak. Shelf life is uncertain so I am playing the DOD contracting field and seeing what sticks.
Um I think we still have Penguin.. blah....
So does this mean that LockMart will try and fold the requirements into their SM-6 bid? I wouldn't put it past them trying to sell yet another wunder toy that can do everything on paper.
While were are on the topic of ASUW, what is going on these days with Netfires/NLOS? Is the Navy still studying it's (probably bad) options? Is it still considering running the Netfires program itself?
I realize Netfires and LRASM are entirely different beasts, but the failure of Netfires certainly underscores the sorry state of ASUW in the US Navy.
I recall trying to establish the surface picture off Libya in 86. The airwings and ships would work their butts off all day to get tattos on all those sailing among the three CVBGs before sunset, then...the off going E-2C crew, more often than not, would dump the link track stores before the oncoming crew had it all absorbed. Sorry SJS, but it happened all too regularly...
And at the conference for C2F that I briefed the results of the below mentioned ASUW/TASM tactical development run (BTW, for a BBBG operation), I had to tell someone weaponeering was the easy part. Sorting the massive dump of overhead and HFDF, to integrating it with oganic sensors was beyond the limits of normal crews. I had the boxes of traffic to prove it and we made some eye-watering graphs of the volume that rocked people back in their seats. We had a talented CDS Staff (OSCS and RMCS who was quite competent in this role), 4 LCDRs, and the CSO sorting, too. Our report got then CAPT John Gauss to ship POST to the THawk ships. Later I sat at a meeting where he stared down RADM Borda (while John was still an O-6) telling him he'd pull all of them back if the Crypies didn't get their hands off of them. A moment of silence, then clear and specific direction was directed to the CCDG8 Crypto Officer.
Oh, and Skippy mentioned the ISAR word. We had the Pax S-3B R&D brid taked to support a few patrols for us, then 2 P-3Cs with ISAR, too. I was and "early adopter!"
Bottom line, when were were in the Reagan Years, with a real enemy at sea, it was a hard, hard job, but not as hard as ASW. Now that the old "hunters" of those days are among the ranks of the retired, in both major warfare areas, just how can we reconstitue, without taking a massive blow (like a Tiffany DDG going "sinker" about 60 miles off some coastline)? Last xmission "What was the code word for an ASCM?"
Heh! DeMot poster: GM holding new tech round. Caption: "All the better to smoke you with!"
Oh right, we got rid of those , with lots of fatigue life left on them, so we could have more Hornets.
Hornet Love...
Too much of it in NavAir over the last two decades.
Every time I think about it, this song pops into my head...
Cause they're so cute.
I correct my last: "unemployment rolls"
xformed, It says that he was an AAW guy ;)
Lockheed Martin - The Name goes ON
Before the Quality goes IN.
Catchy Motto, I think.
Maybe they'll adopt this motto ? You know, Truth In Advertizing.
Here's another LM motto candidate:
LOCKHEED MARTIN
WE'RE NOT HAPPY, 'TILL YOU'RE NOT HAPPY.
Let's vote on this.
I get that we need new teeth. I realized this before I had my second chevron. But, What I am wondering is, can anything we can stuff into a mk41 cell enought to counter the behemoths of the BrahMos and Moskit?
What is more important: Speed or warhead? Seeker or maneuverability?
Given a long enough timeline (say, to 2020) Will the rail gun potentially make the ASCM, or SSASCM a moot point? Especially in conisderation of the advancement in ECM against missiles.
Another (minor) regret about changing the CVN air wing composition.
VIKINGS were oh-so-quiet ! Both during fly-overs as well as their sweet carrier landings.
SUPER Hornets are fully twice as loud as older Hornets. At sea, or landing at NAS bases.
If you go to WWW dot NAVY dot MIL and look at the photo collections for FIGHTERS, you will notice that the primary "weapons" loadout on every Super Hornet picture, is 2, 3, or 4 huge external fuel tanks. Hardly any weapons per flight over S.W. Asia. Perhaps Hornets could drop empty fuel tanks as weapons ? Without land-based USAF Tankers busily tanking each CVN launched F-18 up to 5 times per flight over Afghanistan, then our nuclear carriers would be unable to "participate" at all. VIKINGS with their slower speeds, more efficient engines had very, very long legs. Wish the Navy had 200 new S-3 VIKINGS for so many different missions.
the off going E-2C crew, more often than not, would dump the link track stores before the oncoming crew had it all absorbed.
The bane of NTDS...
Either that, or whoever was AS would have the picture as f*:ed up as Hogan's goat.
I always advocated always keeping our own picture in local. it meant a whole lot of hooking and poscoring, but it would pay off for just that reason.
I think probably the best thing defense acquisition reform would be to prohibit LockMart from bidding for any project, any branch.
Aside from their obvious ASUW benefit, I suggested to a certain Hornet flyer many of you know that I thought that the P-3 and the S-3 would be great platforms to have loitering overhead with a couple JDAMS and LGBs for CAS.
He recoiled in horror that the VP and VS communities might be able to do something like that. His view was that if it didn't come off a Hornet, it couldn't be done well.
Retired, Reminds me of an old air plan cartoon with the F/A-18 refueling itself from its own buddy stores.
I'd say speed over warhead. Speed is kinetic energy...which equates into several hundred pounds of hardware smashing into the target at 2000+ fps. That makes a pretty big impression. And speed complicates the defensive equation.
Sure is a shame there are not a few heavy haulers like these on board...which could carry 10,000 lbs of ordnance (either Mk80s or one really really BIG puppy) out 1000 nm plus ...UNREFUELED.
And that was c.1947 technology I might add...
The new fangled "better" stuff has gotten you where?
Less than half the payload at less than half the unrefueeld radius a full half century later.
Progress.
Let's not get busting on ZS (we was a Battle Force!), but...ah...well, not to speak badly of my "shipmates" forced upon us to embark as it had been, but LCDR Harry Harris was one of the major players in the Surface Module aboard the 60 something looked like a CV, smelled like a CV, drove around like a CV ship...unnamed, that was ZS for the fun...and IDed a Russian cruise liner as "two OSAs, INBOUND, HIGH SPEED! NW" about 0200L a few hours after we had toasted the La Combatante about 2000L. Thank God for a heads up LTJG in the cockpit with a TRAM POD he used before precisely following his "TAKE!" order...which I heard with me own ears on the net. Blogged that one, too.
Yeah, and before Desert Storm the aviators thought badly of TLAM....
Xformed I am in happycom land
When does "cute" <span>get to looking outright silly</span>...?
I was aboard a Coonts one night during a Med exercise, when over the KY-8 an S-3 came on saying he had sighted the lurking about Kresta II. Only problem was he was orbiting us as per his symbol on top of us, and asking him where he was, and the lookouts saying they saw an aircraft out there, and the EW's who said it was an S-3 for sure...
Anyway, there was no convincing this guy, who said he was going to 'poon it (us).
Good thing it all wasn't for real....
Keep more OS 0334 around. As a fomer 0334 it was always nice to know why to fire to Harpoon vice just firing as a FC would.
Think you had it right first time.
Transformational.
Just like other weapons the navy wants its milti million dollar missiles. It wants the most hightech transformational weapon. So what if we end up with a military 20 to 30 yrs out of date. They need more money for BS systems instead of the ones that are nessesary and work.
You can also add a charge behind the armored solid head to go off a micro-second before impact, giving even MORE energy to the impact, thus leveraging the kinetic energy transfer. Speed and mass will do for many solutions, provided you have the accuracy in targeting and terminal correction(s).
How about this variation of old GENERAL ELECTRIC motto:
YESTERDAY's technology at TOMORROW's prices !!!
fun with Lockheed Martin time ......
I was a member of a couple of those NDIA Study teams and the stop that the lawyers placed on us is truely a travesty. The teams were "free" to the Navy and usually had a pretty good mix of retired senior officers along with shit-hot technical peopel to bring a good marriage of operations and technology to bear on the problem being studied.
The usual industry players pretty much all supplied people - LM, Boeing, NG, BAE, Ratheon, etc
Have to wonder what the Shades of Allan and Malcolm and Glenn think....
I want to point out here that I've never seen a man with more stars of a nice bronzy- and silvery-color, with little V-thingies on the ribbon, than Colonel Charles Clanton, United States Army.
A Chaplain.
Who earned those medals for heroism under fire as a chaplain.
I'm an atheist, but that man is the finest officer I've ever known.
Skippy might remember him, not sure.
That man is full goddamned bore.
Right now I am moving from the SH-60B to the MH-60R and by default flying the strike groups' only organic airborne SSC asset, I'll tell you the search/classification capability is unbelievable. (Great RADAR, ISAR, Phenomenal ESM, Link 16, Multi mode FLIR/Low light TV, Data link, Buoys, ALFS etc...) Weapons however leave something to be desired. I'd be happy to get something like the Penguin (wasn't precise enough) back for the target sets/threat envelopes we actually encounter.
What is really sad too is we had NRL's that use to do off the shelf thinking and developing. I have meet a couple of guys who had fired some Harpoon's in anger in the Med in 1986. Then when the AGM-123 Skipper II, a rocket assisted GBU-16 (where the rocket came from old AGM-45 Shrike which was born from older AIM-7 Sparrows); the whole purpose for this weapon was a low-cost weapon that could be carried by all sorts of aircraft and used in tight conditions where a Harpoon would have hit a netural target. This was used effectively for the first time in 1989 against the Iranians, then we could out that we could toss the sucker over the shoulder and since it was laser guided could be used against land targets just as well. However after 1991 we purged it from the magazines and instead are depending on AGM-65s and the JDAM/JSOW upgraded to hit and kill ships. But NRL's developed the Skipper II strictly COTS and was developed and out to the fleet in some pretty good time (I think I had seen something like 300 days from mockup to IOC), how many NRL's at places like China Lake are doing design work like this?
Long range heavy hitters are important, but also short range heavy hitters are useful too when you only want to kill a ship in the middle of a tight shipping lane or harbor.
Am I the only one here that's missing the Intruder right about now? A squadron or two of A-6F's would be a wonderful thing for an CVW to have on the deck ...
Pays media types like me...
SAP: The A-6 Bubbas, I suspect. That was in anger...however later that night, speaking of how difficult ASUW is...
Can't find it in the blog, but sure I wrote up my analysis somewhere along the the time line in 2006 of the "20 years later" stuff. I'm firmly convinced, due to the fog of war, the Harpoons were not fired in anger, per se, but out of a reaction. I was on watch when it happened. Confusion reigned. Closer to midnight local, it all began when CAP Station 5, a TOMCAT was screaming bloody murder about taking AAA. YORKTOWN reported high speed screws down a bearing and they and TURNER pickled off Bulldogs in BOL.
The next day, I pulled out out pseudo DRT traces (Commodore made us keep them on our charts, plotting every thing up on the Flag Bridge). Got out the prior night's and put the CAP STA 5 location on it (as ZX, not a normally plotted item). It was with in a few miles of where the La Combatante had been first Harpooned, then Rockeyed. I'm thinking the SWOs, in their rush to hero status, neglected to correlate the available info, jumped the gun...Just some scaredy cat fighter guy who who couldn't discern secondary explosions and burning, floating debris got it going.
Oh, and BTW, ADM Jeremiah actual talked to the A-6s when they found the Libyan ship. Asked what the plane had on board. Said Rockeyes. ADM said "Take." After a few, he asked for BDA...response "Took with Harpoons!" Harpoons? You didn't have Harpoons!!! "No, but 60X did!" Musta been the call on squardon common to get a standoff shooter into the mix after getting the big guy's go ahead. Funny in it's insider type of way. Not so much for the poor sailors who's NCA never told them they had initiated hostilities with the US of A just hours before.
Dude! It's an AEGIS World! FCs...know all, do all....didn't you get the memo?
Not familiar with the "happycom" place, but suspect you mean "local." Dude, we gotta have a CDR S memorial mini-blog conference....and you need to come to breakfast Sat...if I'm reading you right.
Rusty,
We gave up deep strike years ago in an attempt to fight at the Littorals. To fight in the littorials you don't need long range deep strike. Also the USAF promised they could do all the deep strike with thier Bones, Buffs, and Strike Eagles. Note they gave up thier F-111's they are almost in the same situtation. Also people quit thinking post Desert Storm about large and long range war at sea missions. Everyone looked around and realized our "threats" was Iran and other trans-national assets (like terror groups like Hamas, PLO, FARC, etc) who have what for a Navy except for some small puddle pirate stuff? Also except for a number of front compaines that run shipping for larger groups like Al Qedea, people in the US Navy got Mr. Magoo myopic about the future. Even though we had groups like DIA, GAO, RAND, and about every other think tank out there and some indy bloggers, screaming "CHINA!" and "History!".
Xformed,
Oh yea my dad was in the ready room on the Coral Maru during Praire Fire when 55, 85, and 34 all put rounds down range on the La Combattante and that Nanuchka patrol boat came out to play. He remembers his birds in 55 left with Mk 20's since they were low cost, and effective small boat killers (at the time and SOP for 6th Flt AOR ASuW), and both 34 and 85 had a couple of thier birds armed with Harpoon since the Libyans might have had the SS-N-9's instead of the SS-N-2c's. A couple of our family friends in both 55 and 34 remember that week was pretty hetic, tween the SA-5 shots and HARM response, the CBS crew in a Dassault Falcon testing the NOTAMS about the self-defense bubble around TF60, VQ-2 Whales out running some MiG-25's collecting SigInt/ELINT, the Libya Foxtrot might be soritng the same time the Libya patrol boats were coming, most of what I gathered was everyone in TF60 knew shooting was going to happen. Just who was going to shoot first and who was going to be bloodied.
Again, the fact that we had it and could put an airplane OTH from the task force with a weapon with a weapon that keep the plane out of the range of the OpFor Air Defenses is important evoultion in WASEX tactics. Cause before the Harpoon arrived on station. We were going to do it just like we did in Leyte, Midway, or Guadalcanal. The only exceptions might be some Shrike or STARM shooters and maybe some LGB's, but it was still rolling in over the top of the target and dive bombing through AAA/SAMs to drop bombs on the bad guys.
Guest, The MH-60R's search and link capabilities were being touted before I retired. Good to hear that the reality is as good as the sales pitch. Of course, with the demise of the S-3 it wasn't like they had another option.
As for their lack of weapons, can't say I'm surprised since it took nearly 20 years for them to agree to put an ASUW weapon beyond the M-60 MG on either the SH-2 or SH-60.
Heh, good ole 155mm is good to have too in case of shore bombardements...
But from my harpoon experience, I've never got into a gunfight with Iowa BG vs Kirov BG in Harpoon. Either it was one group or the another sunk by salvoes of SS-N-19s and SLCMs supported by SS-N-22s and Harpoons, respectively. Even USN helos loaded with Penguins helped to dry up Soviet AAM stocks.
OTOH, when I tried scearios set in the fjords of Norway, sometimes FACs would end using their guns because detection ranges were so short.
My idea is best is to have both missiles and guns, redundancy and all that... and of course it is better to have installed 127mm or even 76mm than "work in progress" 155mm somewhere down the design process. Getting the off-the-shelf ground piece of artillery should be tried as soon as possible (just mount it on as Ticonderoga or Burke instead of 127mm and see if it works) but not be reserved as only option.
Swedes and Norwegians had torps on some of their FAC as late as mid-80s and I am not sure if they dont keep them even now.
Exactly how the Japanese showed "how to" to the USN at Savo, (with slight neglect of (d) namely finishing off transports) - and the USN has returned the favor at the Surigao strait.
And things get really messy when detection starts when both fleets are well into effective range and start shooting at the same time (San Francisco BG vs Hiyei BG). You can call it saloon gunfight with machine pistols.
SOCOM is happy com, CENTCOM is sadcom from what I've been told. When and where on the b'fast? I play football on Saturday mornings at 1030 or so, so if you guys get together earlier then I can make it. Otherwise, I'll have to do a bit of scheduling. Phib has my e-mail contacts. I'll also be up in Jax in a couple of weeks. I think Byron, the Ugly Chief and I are supposed to get together.
It did.
Xformed, I am afraid that Navy is long gone... we would not be able to react to something similiar I fear with all the lawfare...
How about this -- Hey India -- in exchange for selling you the P-8 and (potentially) the F/A-18E/F, we will buy the BrahMOS with a license for domestic production after the first 150 missiles...
w/r, SJS
Expereince varied by locale and focus of flag. More often than not we didn't dump the load and spent the better part of our time (if bailed to AS as a primary mission - which was rare) getting the our surface ships from dualing (one contact with up to 6 units reporting it into the NTDS-- >:o ) all the surface tracks within 20 miles of one another. And don't get me started on the creative ID coding that was also going on by those same units. I'd bring back pages of contact info to pass to the ASUW module as soon as we recovered as a backup only to later discover it had been lost in the watch turnover. And lets not forget the whole bit of fun with OUTLAW SHARK either. Lots of "physician, heal thyself" for all ASUW players.
That said, let me offer a little perspective from 25K of what ASUW/SSC in the littorals was like in the early 80s...
w/r, SJS
Well, let's also not forget that removing the deep nuclear strike mission plus the appearance of the double- and triple digit SAM pretty well put the end to the A-6 as a relevant platform. As we see the capabilties of those landbased SAMs make their way to sea (and introduction of hostile CV TACAIR), the sanctuary that was enjoyed by likes of MH-60's and formerly P-3 and S-3 bubas will also shrink. It's getting uglier folks and peering in the ol' toolchest, it's increasingly harder to find the necessary tools at hand to meet the task...
w/r, SJS
You could, but I'd favor a deep penetrating warhead. Hit, penetrate into the bowels of the target, then detonate. Like battleship main battery shells.
The other issue is whether you are impacting the side of the target...or the top. A vertical strike weapon might do better to maximize penetration over all else in order to breach the hull.
Mike,
My concern with using high-speed, high-energy ammunition vs modern warchips is that the round may have TOO much penetrative power. Modern warships simply do not have the armor that older vessels did, and it's possible to find our rounds simply penetrating and going out the other side before detonating. I agree with delayed-detonating warheads. Go in deep before exploding, more damge, maybe fewer rounds needed, etc. All good.
But in the past, there are instances of rounds simply passing completely through a ship without detonating because the resistance was so small, the armor negligent, etc.
I guess what it all boils down to is that there are many, many variables to consider, and one ammunition type may NOT be the answer in all situations.
So, are you being critical of the "air-sea" doctrine the USAF has been selling? ANATHEMA!
Probably new Norwegian NSM missile? Poland has bought some to equip shore battery.
And I like the passive IR homing on those, if enemy stops radiating for any reason, his only warning against those may be visual (old trusty Eyaball Mk1 with maybe a pair of binoculars...)
<span>"So, are you being critical of the "air-sea" doctrine the USAF has been selling? " </span>
<span></span>
<span>Moi? O:-) </span>
<span></span>
<span>"ANATHEMA!"</span>
<span>No -- he's on another board :-D </span>
Maybe one of the young guys can tell me if we even used the phrase "War At Sea Strike" anymore let alone practice the tactic.
I know this: One time, one Foxtrot left port, for real. Headed from Tripoli to that port over by Egypt. I maybe know this...a MK48 magically, had that subs pennant number on it while it headed back, had there been but a teeny tiny bit of right bearing drift after a rudder movement transient, almost was used. Said sub transited straight, or to the left, as it were.
Another night, overhead had white puffy things in the way. "ZB" went bat$h1t crazy and all of a sudden, wanted "ZX's" opinion and actually took our recommendations...next night, all the 6 Fs were securely nestled at their piers...
So we've all been to the same goat roping?
And you're quick, too. URR...you most likely will miss the humor...
...not being very bright and all....
Helluva discussion here...USNI Check SIX!
Chaplain stopped a deployment? Pathetic. what, did he think he was the political officer? Get Chaplains out of the service, they're just extra weight.
Missiles don't work when there's a missile defense system. Brilliant insight.
@Guest: Uh huh.
@Guest: Uh huh.
Get Chaplains out of the service, they're just extra weight.
Oh...Really?
Not advocating anyone's God here one way or the other...But whether folks admit it or not, we each have one...
Anyway, no amount of existential "reason" (twisted by some into their own canonical religion) can displace this in the human experience....
Just sayin'.
Oh...and when you have a military organization devoid of a moral code or compassion (or those attributes are twisted into evil clones)...you get this.
Or this.
That last is danger to a military organization that no longer thinks it needs to fight wars and is looking for something to do...like be a Force for Good.
In that latter case the squandering of military intellectual capital on genocide cost them a war that to this day is still keenly painful.
(come to think of it...you can say the same for the first example too)
Anyway without that moral structure, it can all look so...banal.
Again...Just sayin'.
LT B,
Just so you know, we ugly people prefer the term "ruggedly handsome". 8-)
Yup....
Lemme tell you this much, you haven't lived until you've been on the ready alert at a VP squadron deployed overseas, got called in to brief on a target, then walked out to the plane to see them loading torpedoes into the bomb bay. Happened to me twice, 1 year apart in each case. Makes everything much more immidiate and intensely interesting. The Cold War was decidely warm from time to time.
I think that that is an excellent idea. I'd also go for exchanging F/A-18's or other such aircraft for a few U-Boats and/or some Euro-Frigates. Same deal.
if bailed to AS as a primary mission - which was rare) getting the our surface ships from dualing (one contact with up to 6 units reporting it into the NTDS-- >:o )
You could have planned on "mine" being the right one... 8-)
Like the S-3 sea story, and xformed's epiphany about the ship killer Tomahawks, the xy cartesian coordinate system of the day was undone by the geodetic reality of the longer ranges.
Didn't matter how much you tried to keep stuff gridlocked.
URR,
You know I do NOT play the PC game. That is even documented. :-D
Nope didn't get that memo. While it's nice to have a FC as a backup a OS should be the primary shooter for yes Tactial reasons and that also goes for Tomahawkers.
I hate to be a wet blanket on this, but where is our OTH target organic to the battlegroup? I remember talk in the 80's about using OTCISXS system (at least that is how I think the acronym supposed to go). Anyone know if we are still using it and while the P-3's have been busy over the 'Stan and Iraq. Their replacement the P-8A isn't supposed to be IOC until 2015 at the earliest (if Boeing doesn't run into the same problems like it has with the 787). Everything else is dependant on the APG-79 of the Block 30 and above F-18E/F/G's and the E-2C APS-145 and the later E-2D radar suite. As SJS pointed out in a thread below, the OpFor's IADS for its battle group along with a number of nations procurring better organic fighter aircraft for its own TACAIR. We are now stuck back like the US Navy was in the early part of World War 2. Are eyes are too short and our punch is just as short, both of which are completedly outranged by the OpFor. Don't quote me UAV's either, cause we haven't proven they work under a typical CVN cyclic ops evoultion. They have only been tested under the most germaine conditions. I would also note that no one has tested a UAV in stessed EW conditions. So until some of these other answers are provided as well, we can get a missile that can be launched from Norfolk and hit a target in Naples harbor, but won't mean squat.
Final thought if we really want to get involved in the ASuW game again. We should look at a weapon that is multi-platform capable. Remember at the height of the cold war, us in the the Navy, was able to talk some in the USAF to convert some of thier B-52G's into being capable of carrying AGM-84 for long range defense against potential surface raiders from the Soviets. I remember hearing of B-52's based out of Loring, Anderson, Keflevick, Lakenheath, etc that had trained on anti-shipping using Harpoons. So if we develop something it needs to be capable of being carried by not only the P-8, F-18; but also the F-16, F-15, F-35, and the future manned bomber. Along with being VLS capable, the SSGN launch system capable, 21in Torpedo capable, Mk13 launcher capable, etc.
I like that in a Marine!
But then my class mate at NWC was Dan Trautman. Just about one of the smartest people I have ever met. Cripes and he flew helos...
10 years ago we pulled Penguin and any support for them from the 60Bs. Maybe someone else is using them but considering the small numbers purchased I have my doubts.
I will have to ask the 20 RN sailors from the HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventary how well thier missile defenses worked out for them. Along with the 37 men from the USS Stark. I also need to ask the four IDF sailors from the INS Hanit how they anti-missile system worked out for them.
Absolutely.
Rusty,
Maybe this one....?
Fr Rocheford was a true hero.
Don't forget this guy, Padre J.T. O'Callahan. Running all over the place on the flight deck of the Franklin giving last rites, trying to rescue the dying, and giving a bit of motivational speech to others. While Tiny Tims (11.75 Rockets), bombs up to 2000lbs, all manner of gun ammo, aircraft parts, and others are scattering themselves all over the place. The most famous shot of him is this one, and interestingly enough the guy he is giving last rites too would survive the ordeal and credit the motivation of that padre to see him pull thorugh.
B-52 with Harpoons were absolute terror in the harpoon scenarios that included them - they were not on a Backfire level, but Soviets didnt have F-14s...
my order of things
1.speed - to survive air defence
2.seeker - to actually hit the target
3.warhead - to do the kill
4. maneuver - last because you cant really dodge the CIWS bullets much
maybe harpoon was not the best but 10 B-52s loaded with 12 each made a mess of any Soviet battlegroup... and then they could just rearm and have another go :P
E40K,
You think they were a terror against a computer AI. Try it against a live opponent (who claims to be your friend) across a card table, while his smiling and the umpire/refree is placing match sticks to represent vampires and the only thing you can think off is "Damn it! At least the pretzels and beer taste good!" Pick up a copy of the pen and paper version over at Clash of Arms
I believe that is what got one of the TAFFY 3 DDs . She was doing OK, with the IJN major caliber shells passing right through the hull, leaving 8" and 14" holes, until a shell hit the base for Mount 51, which was enough resistance to detonate it.
Yes, just like the IJN stopped sending Kamikazies, once they realised our ships had DP guns.
sadly no one in my non-internet friends circle cares too much about naval warfare...
When I was stationed in Guam, I set up 4 tugboats as targets (EPA certs, removal of petroleum products, etc) and the AF was trying hard to get on the bombing list to try to sink one of them before we went into Iraq. I never did here who got on the list to go after the boats. I know one of the carriers in the area got to send people out after them. I also think we let a destroyer take one out too. Good times.
When I was at ASWOC Brunswick, I remember when this whole B-52 in the Maritime Strike Mission stuff got underway. We had a few crews come down from Loring to visit us and see how we did things, what our whole program was about. Afterward, we had some joint P-3/B-52 missions and excerises, and also did some tasking of them as single missions.
My personal view was that, while probably suitable for salvoing against multiple targets, the prospects of that sort of thing were rather slim, and the AF was looking more for reasons to keep the B-52's around, than for actual tasking of these sorts of things.
Additionally, Loring was also being rumored to be on the short list of the BRAC commission, and the AF was trying mightily to see that it stayed open. Eventually, it closed, and now Brinswick has about 6 months left too. There's only a skeleton crew there anyway. Sad to see. There are no more active futy bases in Maine, and the closest air support for SAR is outside of Boston, and is Coast Guard.
As a CVW WASEX strike lead I absolutely loved it when I had even 1 x Buff armed to the teeth with Harppons - and was in ecstacy when I got two for one long range WASEX. "course that was back when we had A-6's (two squadrons worth) and a dedicated A-7 HARM det + EA6Bs, S-3Bs and a Whale to boot.
And yes, you read right, our CAG (CDR Houser - last of the O-5 CAGs) was enlightened enough back in the day to make senior VAW NFOs strike lead for CVW-3 WASEXs - the first to do so.
w/r, SJS
Imagine us two playing with our friend Byron? If I ever get into your neck of woods, I'd be glad to :P
I'd like off-board data relay too...
I was thinking Chicago Pizza at the Jacksonville Landing..AWESOME pizza!
I got RED subs :)
Byron,
That works, I think I'm up there in a couple of weeks. Lunch is tough for me but after the work day, I'm good.
gimme command of the backfires and bears then!
LT B,
naw the Lawyers shredded that evidence years ago.. they dont like to document a loss...
Well then. How smart could he be, flying around without wings? And a glideslope like a falling safe?
Or you could try "photogenically suboptimal".
I flew in a B-52 from Loring AFB-on a WASEX in VACAPES. My .02 was that at the altitudes they were flying, without AEW support they could have gotten into launch range and put some missiles in the air. We were running simulated strikes on the Yokrtown and when we overflew them-we were at Masthead height. It was high altitude IFR down to VACAPES then 50-75 feet the rest of the way. Got to play with the radar on the way back putting cross hairs on the US Capitol.
"masthead height"...must have been a whole bunch of soiled skivvies when the aluminum cloud flew over.
I'll put more ships on the bottom than you :)
heh, I'd love to have such harpoon party...complete with making "AWOOGA! AWOOGA!" sounds when vampires or torps were detected :P
now we need AW1 Tim to run BLUE ASW and SAP to run BLUE AAW :P
Byron, Not if you know they're coming ;)
E40K,
I have all the books for the Admirals Group of games written by Larry Bond and Chris Carlson. Which are an amazing series of games now ranging from the turn of the 20th century to the 21st century. I have no problem trying to run a game with you, AW1 Tim, Maybe Eagle 1, Cdr Sal, Byron, etc. I'll just make it BYOB, get some steelhead or chinook on the grill and play until we all get too tired to play. Of course it has been something like six to seven years since I have ump'd a game, so might have to have some rule learning rounds to get my feet wet again in the rules. It can be fun. I got into the pen/paper version when I couldn't always afford computers that could run the computer harpoon effectively. So myself and a couple of other guys I knew at my first command would play while off watch but having the duty day on the ship. So sit around one of our shops (or sick bay as one of our guys was a HM) and do things like have a CVN get into a gunnery duel with Slava class cause some one lost track of where the bad guys were or had a combo of F-4E's, AV-8B's, F-16A's do an alpha strike against a Foch class CV to prevent cause the war started with what they on hand not what they wanted.
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