This is another example of a problem we continue to have; - leaders have too much ego invested in their prior poor decisions. As a result, when we start cutting steel (or aluminum) or have to actually war game with actual capabilities and numbers and math; reality and Newtonian Physics prove their cute PPT theories wrong - our leadership refuses to admit that a conceptual mistake was made and a correction needs to be made. We are all human.
That is one way to accept it. The other is to draw from the Rube Goldberg school of leadership and magagement and find another answer so you don't have to admit a mistake. Here we go.
The Navy’s top officer has announced that the service, after some study, will embark a detachment of civil-service mariners on a yet-to-be named amphibious ship during the next year. The trial will test the feasibility of “hybrid crews” aboard amphibious ships, a drastic change under consideration as the Navy tries to cut runaway manpower costs.Here is the kicker; for some reason the phrase "Sailors are our #1 asset" has been turned on its head to "Sailors are our #1 liability." As our shore Staffs and Flag Officer-to-Warship ratios bloat, we have been forcing the operational side of the house - you know, the reason a Navy exists - to go with Orwellian concepts such as "Optimal Manning" and "doing more with less."
Fewer civilian engineers may be required to run the same engineering plant, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead said in announcing the initiative Nov. 10 in a speech in Washington.
The initial idea came up in a discussion where amphibs were compared with command ships and submarine tenders, which are already manned by hybrid crews, Roughead said. “We looked at the logistics force and someone said, ‘You know, the amphibious ships are basically the same type of ship.’ They do have more complex combat systems on them that have a lot of need for sailors onboard. And so I said I was comfortable with doing a pilot to see how it would work.”
It doesn't work. For those who listen to Midrats - when we ask everyone from Leading Petty Officers to Commanding Officers a question about manning we get the same answer; ignore the spin, Optimal Manning is a failure. How many more JAGMANs and INSURVs do we need to see?
As we can't/won't better contain our personnel costs - we become a self-parody of an armed service. You go to war with the Navy you have in peace. If you do that wrong - then your Navy is of no use except for exercises and Fleet Week.
Looking for a way out - some smart and good people will grab hold of any concept that will fix the short term problem, ignoring the significantly bad long-term second and third order effects.
Instinctively, they know this - but for reasons best known to themselves; they ignore it.
Exhibit 1.
“It’s not simply a matter of running with a mixed crew,” Roughead said. “There’s some laws-of-war issues we have to take a look at where the ships may operate, but I do believe it will give us some good information.”The laws of war state that there are no laws. There are a few things that are constant though; the truth changes, the enemy gets a vote, you do what needs to be done to make mission.
Significant numbers of CIVMAR on a warship that needs to close the beach is a non-starter. It may seem like a good idea to accountants at peace - but it sub-optimizes a command at war and unnecessarily complicates a Commanding Officers options and ability to fight his ship.Instead of inventing manning concepts that need a room full of under-employed JAGs to describe in 75-110 PPT slides - and in any event will not survive the first ASCM hit - we should invest our intellectual capital to make sure we have our Sailor manning concepts correct.
Talk to your Chiefs. Talk to your LPOs. Talk to your Junior Officers. Talk to your Commanding Officers. Off the record with Chatham House Rules. Your answers are there if you are willing to hear them and take action.
Great thing about those consultants - they don't cost you extra to get advice from and hey, they might even have some recent operational experience to draw from.
89 comments:
" “There’s some laws-of-war issues we have to take a look at"
why not look at what happened to the civilian contractors on Wake Island?
These guys are idiots. All do respect, senior leadership, but I go to sea with merchies and while many or even all are dedicated sailors, they are not Sailors. What does that mean? Well, many are more knowledgable so there is a plus, but they are all union. Coffee is sacred, overtime must be paid, and if it can't be done during OT, it can't be done. Additionally, they can refuse an order. They are civilians. Most wouldn't, but we had to deal w/ that wrt a burning nuclear accident and ordering a civilian run tug into it to move a sub or carrier. No Art 15 for the drunken merchie either. Terminate his contract and he goes to work again. Hybrid sounds like a cool word, but not a cool world within which to work.
On the flip side (as a Navy related civilian), I'm not up for medals, I don't get a flag over my casket, I don't get a lot of the benefits related to service (especially the ones related to if you get hurt), and I sure don't get paid to get shot at. Plus, a sailor has to probably obey a stupid order. I certainly don't.
So it's a bad idea from all directions.
I know this, you know this - LT B lives this .... so why don't "they" know this? THAT is the story here. That my friends, explains a lot.
I don't know what he means by that either. While I'm not a JAG, I've had an in-depth law of war class by/for JAGs. The bad news for the civvies is that even if you're just a janitor at the Pentagon, you are a lawful military target, not 'collateral damage', while you are in the Pentagon. Perhaps the issue is just what the comment above said: while you are on a warship you are a legal combatant, regardless of what you're wearing, and whether or not you like it.
The part I found really amusing is how the warships will require fewer civilian mariners than it does sailors to operate. Huh? Fewer engineering personnel? Does that means that there are no longer log-taking requirements or PMS?
What happens if the CO announces that the ship has to close the shore to land Marines and the civilians say they ain't going, so they stop working?
Where are our leaders?
Ugh. From a legal perspective this is HUGE. Just look at the UAV quagmire.
And all the CIVMARs will be union...with concurrent length of work restrictions/pay, including double pay for war zones, which means when they get within 24 hours sailing distance from the zone itself. And wait till you hear, "I'm an engineer, not a wiper/oiler". There is a difference between the three
"Where are our leaders?"
Sitting along the banks of the Potomac with their heads in the sand...
I wish I could find ADM Roughead's reading list. I don't remember reading the book that suggests that nothing would be different in '44 at the Battle off Samar at Leyte Gulf if we had CIVMARs on our Jeep Carriers. Based on what I have read, all those extra sailors were needed for Taffy 3 to survive the fight.
Once again we have the shorefront leadership culture demonstrating the emphasis of efficiency over Navy effectiveness, and the operational side will pay for it. This generation of Navy leaders simply do not impress me intellectually, and to me they have the wrong priorities. Someone should write about that sometime...
What I don't understand is how the CNO can keep a straight face comparing amphibious ships and command ships. How does a CNO confuse a company of Marines and a bunch of staff dudes? Navy leadership must really hate Marines, they don’t even pretend otherwise anymore.
More than that. If these people are actively sailing WARSHIPS, not just providing tertiary support like your janitor example, there is a strong argument that they are combatants. Which means even off the ship they are valid targets.
Why not just go all the way and re-institute letters of marque?
Scrap the USN and just hire mercenaries/pirates to do the dirty work?
(And yes, the above is an attempt at sarcasm)
Ugh... dont they realize that those civilians might just turn off the engines when ordered to sail into warzone?
But will they be diverse CIVMARS? That's what is really important.
Un-freaking believable that those involved with proposals like this can be so freaking stupid!
They have been away from the waterfront and bilges too long to remember what a warship is for, and how it MUST be manned and trained to be ready to win a war at sea.
If they just want to steam like some merchie from point a to point b, CIVMAR will be great. Just make sure there are not requirment for GQ drills, cross training, Diversity briefings, personnel inspections, PQS, or anything else. Of course, having a repair party storming into one of "their" spaces with lights out would be unacceptable.
I don't think we will see too many CIVMARS stuck with mess crank duty, or standing port and starboard watches with GQ etc on top of that. Guess the rest of the crew will have to pick that up. Will the CIVMARS get regular crew berthing, or demand stateroom quality of life while the rest of the crew get packed into traditional berthing?
This is as dumb and idea, and as big a demonstration of unpreparedness as the Army's 1941 maneuvers with simulated tanks.
Perhaps the old advice "buy one airplane and let pilots take turns flying it" should ve reviewd and savings achieved by "train one pilot and let him/her/it fly a fighter, tanker, bomber or helicopter when we need one flown."
As an alternate proposal to drastically reduce manpower costs, I suggest we replace 50% of all shore duty flag officers and their staffs with inmates convicted of drug smuggling. Their housing and rations are paid for, they can "telecommute" and they have proven expertise in logistics operations under dangerous conditions. Heck, some of then even have submersible experience! It would save a lot more money and probaby damage readiness a lot less.
Of course, with the San Antonio class problems, they could save alot of money buy just laying the up and cut manpower costs 100%.
IDIOTS!
"<span>And all the CIVMARs will be union..."</span>
<span></span>
<span>Compared to the Navy's current proportion of seagoing women (~ 9%?), what proportion of CIVMARs are expected to be females of child-bearing age? Hmmm! Interesting workaround. </span>
This issue dates back to the mid to late 90's. I brought up almost all of these problems from the first time that I heard this pitch (and from the same guy who in invented Ship Swap no less!!) and I got the stink eye and you are not being a team player looks. The value of the enlistment contract cannot be overlooked. Before or after the first ASCM hits you will get a lot of CIVMARS who have decided they want to go home and it will not be easy to keep them onboard. What happens when one of the CIVMARS gets caught stealing or gets in a fight with Sailors. Mr. Ship swap did incalculable damage to the Navy throughout his overly long career.
Just proves the Pentagon maxim...It's not just about the money, it's all about the money. Shame because I always tell my JO's, it's not just about the Sailors, it's all about the Sailors.
Now let's be clear about this ! The MSC CIVMARs will be part of a hybrid crew something that is already being done on several USS ships. They are NOT detachments, they will take over some of the ships departments typically engineering, deck and supply (or stewards as MSC calls it). We’ll see to what extent? It has worked alright to date.
AND I disagree with CNO’s observation that the naval auxiliaries and amphibious warfare ships are “basically the same kind of ship”. I have served on both types and surveyed amphib<span>s</span> for MSC “civilianization”. Ships operations are NOT the same in my informed opinion. I helped crew up about a dozen USNS ships and am intimately familiar with their crewing, training and operation.
That having been said, I am sure that the CIVMARs will provide professional performance in a cost effective manner.
Phibian historically speaking US merchant mariners have been onboard MANY ships used in amphbious operations. During DS/S fleet tug and oilers went in right alongside the amphibs. And NO CIVMARs are not all union members MSC does NOT require that.
what about damage control? what about PMS? what about when we decide this FAD just like all the others was a BAD IDEA and then we have to deal with not having enough engineering manning and or school billets to equip our ships with Sailors?
Interestingly enough, this is being brought to you by the same people who said employing contractors in war zones was a bad idea...
I've got no doubt that CIVMARs will go in harm's way. The problem will be that if you ask them to start doing a Sailor's job, they will start demanding a Sailor's benefits.
Which can get pretty pricey.
Personally, I think a lot of this is being driven by inadequate training. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that the Fleet is sending Sailors to sea with a lot less training - especially crosstraining - than their civilian counterparts. Which drives manning requirements up.
Given that it'll be a government program, just exactly what chances do you give it that they won't be all union? My money says you damn betcha.
I see this failing miserably. I can remember an article in Navy Times serveral months back discussing what would happen if you replace an engineering department with civilians. It's not that civilians are better/worse than Sailors; It is that Sailors are multi-faceted and can be used in a variety of environments. A Sailor would never say "I won't do mess deck duty because it's not in my contract" or refuse to deploy and get away with it. It's a crying shame. Sigh.
There is a big difference between what you speak of and an Amphib at war.
I would argue that if you let me pick the crew - I could get you a Frigate or DDG full of civilians that would outperform any ship in the US Navy ...... on peacetime measures of cost, maintenance, and tactical performance. Ditto for a VFA squadron.
The problem is, you do not man, train, and equip a Navy for peacetime. You prepare and go to war. Also, the work-place rules for CIVMAR in 2010 are much different than 1945.
An Amphib - and I would also argue a Command Ship as well (it does have a "L" in it, not that in the post-LCS world that means anything) - is not an AUX. I would also argue that with few exceptions - many of our MSC ships used for UNREP should be USS and 95% Sailors .... but that is me.
If CIVMARs wish to be on warships then they should do so as activated reservists. That would require - of course - that we had a robust Navy reserve for them to serve on. A different subject for a different day, perhaps.
Oh yeah! Let me tell you what happens when I bring aboard female Sailors around the merchies when only one half is required to follow the UCMJ (and as you all know, a lot of them don't). Good times, good times.
Different unions too. QMED is not an "officer" so their union is different than the third assistant up to CHENG. I am not certain how that will meld w/ Sailors, and when you look at different pay scales, or different liberty/leave policies, you may get some crankiness OR retention will suck when the young Seaman sees what the civs make on contract and that they get OT.
Though, technically, if they are not uniformed as sailors (or soldiers when land-based contractors) they would NOT be protected under the Geneva Conventions, not that it would make a difference to most of our likely enemies. Armed contractors in mufti are an encouragement to the enemy to shot everyone who could be "one of ours".
You know Leesea, I don' t doubt the dedication of a lot of the CIVMARs, and many that would be drawn to this are former Navy and choose a less lucrative USNS jobs so they can be a part of more than the cargo jobs. That said, my understanding is you get guys from the union hall based on rotation, seniority and not necessarily on talent. Your ability to "motivate" or "fix" a less stellar CIVMAR may be limited. Replacement of said individual may also be difficult. It depends on how they run the contracts and who runs them.
You are wrong. Today's Sailor is far better trained than say your WW2 Sailor.
I mean I have received training on sexual harassment, racial harmony, cultural sensitivity almost 2 times a year. Then you get my IA training, ATFP (how to hide on a plane) training, etc. I mean I am uber qualified to be the most thenthitive thailor out there.
Now if you want to argue that today's is not focused on the PROPER training and rather on CYA, JAG driven drivel, I will not argue w/ you at all. :)
Robbo:
Your are correct. You don't understand... the need for naval discipline on naval ships, in peace and war. Neither, alas do the JAG's who buy into this delusion. QED.
You had a class. I had a class, too. Plus a life spent in the Navy and Merchant Marine.
BAD IDEA.
Wake civilians? Murdered. The enemy doesn't consult our JAG's. Or pay any attention to them.
Don't blame JAG for this mess.
When my father (a radio operator in the merchant marine) got on a charter to bring equipment and supplies to Desert Shield he got an assimiliated rank of LT. so he could handle the message traffic. IF they do this, the best thing to do is swear them in as civilian auxilleries and put them under military orders. Anything else would end up in a fluster cluck.
Female merchies are free to select their entertainment, and pay no attention to rank. Some of them are quite "liberated" and like variety. How will this play in Peoria? We don't know.
Right. So either a uniformed combatant, or an unlawful combatant... Either of which is a problem.
Roughead needs to find a new job. He isn't suited to this one.
I think their heads are firmly lodged elsewhere.
They already went down that road with USS Blue Ridge. She was specifically not given CIVMARS because she is a legitimate target of war. Plus-Coronado did not turn out so great when they raped it to put CIVMARS on board.
Think about this- a guy who retired as a Second Class will now be serving right next to your Sailors but bringing home twice the money. Watch what happens to retention as they start poaching.
Plus most of our MSC ships should be USS-if for no other reason than to create more deep draft commands. :)
The females already have their own union (s). WOPA, Minerva, DACOWITS....... :(
MSC ships have DC lockers stocked above USCG rqmts. CIVMARs are trained equally as well on merchant type DC/FF systems. The reall question is how many lockers on amphibs will be assigned to mariners TBD
They use a different form of PMS not so manpower intensive or paperwork focused. Again it is TBD which if any systems will be civilianized? The Navy may well cheap out on new automation? Thus starting another bad cycle.
FYI, CIVMARs are governed by SESCNAV Instruction similar to Navy regs. And yes they can go to jail for refusing to work. And fighting could result in prompt dismissal. New body waiting in the shoreside pool.
IF most assuredly is NOT about deep draft commands! Too damn many senior officers already.
Another boulder upon the mountain of proof that the Navy is led by a cadre of self serving politicians who don't give a damn about their Sailors or Navy and can never be trusted to provide real military leadership or guidance for the instutution they have used to satisfy their lust for power.
This has not been thought all the way through. It's hard to think of a higher priority target than gators CVBGs can come and bomb the snot out of you, but only gators came come and take and hold ground. Carriers can be a major vexation, but gators are who you lose the war to. So they are gonna be number one on the KILL THOROUGHLY list. The should only have Sailors in thier crews, not mariners.
I suspect that the Fleet Train should also be Sailor manned. In Gray Ships, Black Oil, the auther states that by 1945, the USN had established that a major fleet unit, such as an oiler, should have 4 DEs as an escort, due to the threat from subs. The DEs would protect the AO in and out of the danger zones, and fill in the gaps in the screen, as the task force DDs would break out of position to fuel. Since it has been 65 years since an AO has been threatened at sea, we are leaving them wide open for KILOs. Commercial satillites will sell you pictures of the ocean that will allow you to track the AOE, so your KILO can go right to her. KILL the AOE, and you kill the CVBG and the Phibs missions. AOEs and Gators are the highest risk ships, but we won't man them with sailors. That is not right, nor is the lack of Fleet Train escorts. Still, the money is better spent on social restructureing programs and ACORN. I am just a belligerant old Badger.
I was referring to the diversity/SH and focus on other things training rather than basic seamanship/navigation/engineering/weapons use.
and WOLF Skippy.
The Mt Whitney looks ever so much like a charter bus...
I have to wonder what impression it gives when the Admiral stands into a port aboard a ship that is not even manned by his FIGHTING sailors...
Guess its ok as a "Force for Good"
To your point....
Story here.
Just tow more losses of the "big" AO's over the next weeks...and there is NO WAY the USN could have stayed on station for this crticial battle.
And the fight in the Solomons would have tipped the other way almost certainly.
But hey...
When you are TOO GOOD TO FIGHT!
I guess the point is moot
Sorry, that was me just above. Not checking to make sure I have logged in is also a vexation.
Warrior Ethos
Once people are in, there is no rigid command structure aboard, and no uniforms — sweatshirts, scraggly beards and long hair are all common. Mariners call each other by their first names. Navy people coming aboard could expect a corporate culture, as opposed to a military culture, if they decided to cross over, Toscano said.
<span>“This is basically a merchant ship — we don’t shoot at anything,” he said. “You put in your hours and you get paid for it, and that’s that.”</span>
AD COs will like it much, much better... But, on another note: what about that messiness: Who in who's chain of command? Would seem clear, but I'm sure some lawyers will muck it up...not in favor of good order and disicipline. You're not only mixxing sailors and civlians, you're mixing the UCMJ and civilian law.
That doesn't mean that no one wants to shoot at you.
Leesea...
Your lens about this is too myopic.
You...as a CIVMAR for lo these many years (and old Riverine guy that you are) are simply blind to the fact that that this is about the cultural destruction of whats left of the USN...
I think, like Commodore Jerry Lewis (CDS6), it's time for "full credit (for the good, and the bad!):" How about naming the putz who came up with these remarkable ideas. I'm sure he's very, very proud of them, like Castro used to be about his Cuba....so I'm sure he wouldn't mind...
Time for "full creidt (for the good and the bad)" I learned from Commodore Jerry Lewis of CDS6: How about naming the putz, who must be so proud of such remarkable ideas for saving money as to be a proximate cause of degrading our battle readiness to unacceptable levels...I'd like to know the name, so I can use it with apprpriate intonations of disgust at every opportunity.
<span>Time for "full creidt (for the good and the bad)" I learned from Commodore Jerry Lewis of CDS6: How about naming the putz, who must be so proud of such remarkable ideas for saving money as to be a proximate cause of degrading our battle readiness to unacceptable levels...I'd like to know the name, so I can use it with apprpriate intonations of disgust at every opportunity.</span>
Dear Admiral Roughead,
As a concerned TAX PAYING citizen, please explain to me why we even need a navy. While you have 15,000 sailors ashore in the mideast versus 12,000 aboard ship, would it not be better for them to transfer to the Army and Marines permanently? It seems you are doing well enough without them.
Since you have largely abandoned the idea of fighting any more wars at sea, yhy not use employ the carriers as intermodal freight liners between China and the US?
They can haul more and go faster than anyone else...And it would help the Economic Recovery.
As for the aircraft...I'm sure we could sell those off to some third world country like Venezuela, which is still belligerent in that quaint 20th century warfighting kind of way.
We are too good for that now.....
If manpower is in such short supply, and so expensive, how 'bout we staff some lean Admiral-staffed ships instead of CIVMAR? Displace more than a few staffs and 6-10 of 'em should be the same cost as a real crew for each ship. The best part is no training is required, they know everything already cuz those pretty ppt's say so, and they can fight out who's senior and what the plan of the day is. Might put a Chief on each one for real guidance and to say "Watch this Sh*t", chuckle, and take pics.
This plan BTW is beyond comprehension.
LCS 1 is only able to get underway because they HAND PICKED HER CREW. If you had Joe Seabag's on that ship, she'd look worse than LPD 17
well said, Ma'am.
GAL the blue water officers have always had a superiority complex.
Sid wrong again. I was a SWO not a CIVMAR, I manage many different kinds of ships. The Navy's culture sucks. Too many tasks other than driving and fighting that distract officers and sailors from what they need to do.
The Gator sailors can't fix their own systems it would appear. Partially because they are not given the money and time needed (because there are more tangental things to do again).
It is not about culture, it's about getting the job done, and going to see is job number one. I know mariner who go our for 6, 9 months or more withoug medical or dental. I have talked to older ABs and permanent 2nd who just want to work without complaining.
MSC ships are deployed 65% of the time and underway 85% of that. Not much shore leave or no liberty. Color them gone. Now whining when PERSTEMPO is exceeded because that does NOT apply to USNS. Repatriate when they get you a relief onboard wherever that might be. Not much going to/from homeport because MSC does not work that way. I had ships in DGAR gone for FIVE years. One short VR period none of that MTA and OVHL for them. On station ready to go.
Just give me some men and women who WANT to go to sea.
We won't even talk about how many officers cannot drive their ships on course - just look at the accidents. not to mention zipper problems
when USN is approaching the point of more admirals than ships, this should be really considered...
I guess nobody read about the civilian merchantmen in the Falkland war. I'm afraid CDR Salamander has titled this too aptly. No disrespect intended to merchant marine but it's really not what they sign up for. I keep thinking of the line from a song.
"The dead released with the ship still sailing,
Out of our hands and into the swallowing sea."
I don't expect that of men not trained for war and that is what war will require.
I guess nobody read about the civilian merchantmen in the Falkland war. I'm afraid CDR Salamander has titled this too aptly. No disrespect intended to merchant marine but it's really not what they sign up for. I keep thinking of the line from a song.
"The dead released with the ship still sailing,
Out of our hands and into the swallowing sea."
I don't expect that of men not trained for war and that is what war will require.
I guess nobody read about the civilian merchantmen in the Falkland war. I'm afraid CDR Salamander has titled this too aptly. No disrespect intended to merchant marine but it's really not what they sign up for. I keep thinking of the line from a song.
"The dead released with the ship still sailing,
Out of our hands and into the swallowing sea."
I don't expect that of men not trained for war and that is what war will require.
<span>Not much going to/from homeport because MSC does not work that way. I had ships in DGAR gone for FIVE years. One short VR period none of that MTA and OVHL for them. On station ready to go. </span>
As was said above, ships that were never molested by battle.
You posit a quite myopic experience a bit too far Leesa..but you are too blind to see it.
I DO agree with you though about sailors wanting to go to sea....
Its something the USN should be about.
And waging war there too.
I miss LBES and hot plants
"This is a Colt-Pielstick 16cyl, 45 degree, turbocharged marine diesel. This week we read about it, next week we tear it apart, the week after we put it together, and finally we stand watch on it. Questions?"
That was training. Hand FN Timmy a g*ddamn CD-ROM and it's gonna end up as a coaster for his beer.
I miss LBES and hot plants
"This is a Colt-Pielstick 16cyl, 45 degree, twin turbocharged marine diesel. This week we read about it, next week we tear it apart, the week after we put it together, and finally we stand watch on it. Questions?"
That was training. Hand FN Timmy a g*ddamn CD-ROM and it's gonna end up as a coaster for his beer.
I can attest to all of that. I made my Sailors do DC w/ the merchies and they far out performed the merchies. There was no hustle to the drill. You know when they are, everybody prepositions gear and themselves for muster. My civilians would scream a blue streak if we did a drill unscheduled and they never responded for an unscheduled alarm.
CHENG and Master are largely equal. If they do not work well together it can also make for a very bad trip.
How can you say that? They gave us diversity and NKO training!
Leesea, I agree w/ you on the driving aspect. A lot of the merchies are far better drivers, navigators, etc. It is interesting to watch a merchie pull into port and a USS pull in. I prefer the merchie way. Maybe 3 guys and a pilot, quiet, relaxed, keeping it between the buoys.
It is not about culture, it's about getting the job done
Will give you that one too leesea....but your solution as-CIVMARS will solve it is the wrong way to go about gettting it done.
its like CIVMARS are your hammer...and all the navy's manpower issues are the nail it can push home.
Belaboring the point, that is simply myopic.
Senior navy leaderships needs to face the mirror and call the optimum manning regimen of the last decade an abject failure, and reinstitute a competent surface snipe force.
While I agree with the sentiment, do you actually expect Obama to appoint anyone who would be an improvement? Regardless of Roughhead's employment status, I foresee the same crap coming down the pipe....
disagree. Merchies set the auto pilot and fall asleep in the pilot house. You let the merchies take over Deck Department, try that shit with the VMS and see how long they last! Merchantmen are really corporate animals. They live in staterooms, work normal days, next to no PMS, have flat screens, couches, all sorts of gucci ammenities that are incompatible with a warship.
Oh, and they all get pierside parking! WTF?!
Merchies are good at what they do--sailing merchantmen. Some of their engineers are phenomenal. THEY SHOULD BE, THEY SPENT 4 YEARS IN SCHOOL AND ALL OF THEIR SUMMERS IN COLLEGE DOING NOTHING BUT ENGINEERING.
Crewing a warship is DIFFERENT. So, instead of Roughead saying "we need to reinvest in engineering training, maintenance and modernization (and dump our revolutionary shipbuilding strategy that still exists after the FAIL of 17, 1000 and LCS)," he says "we need to outsource our sailors.
And would you blame FNSN Timmy if he did exactly that? Or would you blame Navy leadership for thinking this was the way to educate AND motivate young sailors?
Leesea -- fighting the good fight I see...
If anyone can make this happen -- MSC will.
I think the above comments generally overestimate the problems (command responsibilities, the union effect, etc.). No surprise.
I suspect, that in the 1970s when MSC started to take over the auxiliaries -- if we had an internet back then -- we would have seen pretty much the same as above comments (sky is falling...).
Will be a very interesting experiment.
Jay, If the CDR, URR, Granpa, Salty Gator, myself or pretty much any member in good standing of the Loyal Order of the Front Porch take a stand on ANY issue, it's almost a dead shot guarantee that you'll take the opposing viewpoint. That's a knee jerk reaction in anyones language.
LaFleur
hey guest:
why not avoid all of the blather and insist that the whole da*&n thing be manned by guys that wear white hats and taxidriver caps.
C
Can't wait to get into my volumes of Morison for some choice, real navy in a real war examples of the culture clash leesea tries to look over....
<span>"MSC ships have DC lockers stocked above USCG rqmts</span>".
Given what the CG requires, 'taint much of an achievement. Slight correction - in most cases: THE dc locker is stocked....as in one. One fire party, two hoses, start the fire pump and fill and pressurize the (normally dry) fire main when the alarm sounds (if the engineering spaces are manned, diesel ships aren't always). Do you really want a ten or twelve, at most less than 20, man engineering dept? On an amphib, in a warzone, in an opposed landing? Fatigue? Might just be some.
Merchant ships are not accident free. Nor casualty free. Ask the CG.
ALWAYS blame JAG for the mess. They're trained to redirect. 8-)
They are indeed valid targets. We think so. Why would the enemy demur?
Rejecting and substituting realities.... I can see Adam and Jamie, looking over the executed bodies of CIVMARs who had fallen into enemy hands and been shot as spies from amphibs whose crews were not trained to fight, and two battalions of stranded Marines ashore.
"The myth that civilian crews will work on US Navy combatants in harm's way? BUSTED!"
Before the coffee, I thought you said you missed hot pants. I was trying to figure out what an LBES is and how they looked in hot pants. I read it again and it made sense then. But I like hot pants on the right wearer too! :)
and Uncle Vern. Alignment and all that.
Like I said TWICE I am not for putting CIVMARs on amphibs. BUT they are ALREADY onboard some. There are downsides to this proposal from a CIVMAR persmanagement standpoint that I can't repeat. There are methods used by MSC which MAY be helpful on amphibs. I believe they have adopted MSC Lube Oil analysis program after all the screwups with the LPD17 LO flushing, etc. BUT it remains to be seen how much technical improvements can migrate from civilians to sailors AND if the above mentioned SHAPM will adopt any as class items?
I am NOT saying they are the saving angels for amphibs that lies in the admittedly faulty naval leadership. I would like to see better designed Gators again problems with naval technical management specifically SHAPMs. I would like to see more & better trained Gator Sailors (of which I pround once). The Newport's EO was a diesel submariner and damn proud of how well he ran his dept. His engineers were top notch hard workers. It just occured to me that he brough a different ethic to the Gators too.
All I am trying to do is inject facts as opposed to wishes into this thread.
HOGWASH! USNS ships were up front in DS/S and sealift ships with contract mariners sat at the pier while Scuds rained down all around them. This whole line about jumping ships is BS and insults thousands of current mariners.
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