I think this tells us a lot more about the United States Naval Academy and what it has not done in the last couple of years than it does about these two MIDN.
After a couple of years at Annapolis - has the Academy failed this bad to explain to these future leaders where they are and the fact that they are the stewards of their institution's image?
If this was taken at spring break or at a house party some place - no big deal. What is important here is location and context.
Well - I'll let you hash it out in comments - just know that in a couple of years - here's you new DivO; product of what we sell to the taxpayers as one of our most rigorous academic and leadership building institutions.
Supe - you've got your hands full. Good luck.
Oh, don't bother ordering them to take the video down. Already, a few dozen people and I have downloaded it using keepvid.
UPDATE: As expected, if it makes it to CDRSalamander - it gets pulled by lunch. Here is the questions I have for you - I have the video: should I repost it on YouTube? I'll start the comment - make your responses there.
UPDATE II - Electric Boogaloo: OK, here is the compromise. Over the afternoon and evening I have had the chance to talk to a few folks associated with Annapolis on this topic. By a wide margin, they are pro-repost.
I am of two minds of this. The Blogg'r in me thinks: after all, it was up for months in a public space by the author and was only taken down when it was brought to a much wider audience. This was done by adults in full knowledge of what they were doing.
The retired CDR in me says: point made - move on.
However we have another thing going on. Some of the comments have gone down rat-holes that are not germane to the discussion here. Side issues perhaps if more facts were known - but not really something that needs to be pinged on. That is where the Evangelical Libertarian in me comes in to play. I firmly believe in redemption. I also firmly believe that adults can only make informed decisions when they have the facts in front of them. Like Gov. Chris Christie (R-NJ) - I believed in treating adults like adults.
So, I am going to triangulate myself. I have re-posted the video, but as an "unlisted" youtube video. It is not public, and can only be seen by those I allow to see it (and should make my pal Lawyer Andrew happy).
If this was taken at spring break or at a house party some place - no big deal. What is important here is location and context.
Well - I'll let you hash it out in comments - just know that in a couple of years - here's you new DivO; product of what we sell to the taxpayers as one of our most rigorous academic and leadership building institutions.
Supe - you've got your hands full. Good luck.
Oh, don't bother ordering them to take the video down. Already, a few dozen people and I have downloaded it using keepvid.
UPDATE: As expected, if it makes it to CDRSalamander - it gets pulled by lunch. Here is the questions I have for you - I have the video: should I repost it on YouTube? I'll start the comment - make your responses there.
UPDATE II - Electric Boogaloo: OK, here is the compromise. Over the afternoon and evening I have had the chance to talk to a few folks associated with Annapolis on this topic. By a wide margin, they are pro-repost.
I am of two minds of this. The Blogg'r in me thinks: after all, it was up for months in a public space by the author and was only taken down when it was brought to a much wider audience. This was done by adults in full knowledge of what they were doing.
The retired CDR in me says: point made - move on.
However we have another thing going on. Some of the comments have gone down rat-holes that are not germane to the discussion here. Side issues perhaps if more facts were known - but not really something that needs to be pinged on. That is where the Evangelical Libertarian in me comes in to play. I firmly believe in redemption. I also firmly believe that adults can only make informed decisions when they have the facts in front of them. Like Gov. Chris Christie (R-NJ) - I believed in treating adults like adults.
So, I am going to triangulate myself. I have re-posted the video, but as an "unlisted" youtube video. It is not public, and can only be seen by those I allow to see it (and should make my pal Lawyer Andrew happy).
If you wish to see the video, just email me and I will send you the link for you to use on your own computer and not to forward on to anyone else. Just be patient, as my paying gig keeps me busy - but like all my emails, I will read it and reply if I think you rate the link.
457 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 457 of 457Um.........what navy are you a SCPO in?
(gakking in the porch corner...)
It's "an" idea, not "a" idea. (Sorry, the mom in me...occupational hazard). O:-)
Ahh, Middie Mom. But if you read on, you see it is "a great idea". Which is correct.
O, the jocularity....
Some of the best words I know are single syllable words.
Econ, Nothing new here. In 1966 an military school classmate and I entered USNA. While I generally fit the profile that USNA likes to hand out about its new Plebes in terms of GPA, sports, leadership positions, ECAs, etc., my classmate was a straight "C" student who played no sports and whose sole ECA was the AV club. His wealthy family was, however, very well-connected with the Chicago political establishment.
OTOH, he was gone before the end of Plebe Summer.
sid, Several years ago one of the "Powers That Be" decided that it was easier just to send them a bill than to send them to the fleet. Same for NROTC scholarship students. During my time only the prior service guys who were released from their enlistment contract to attend USNA or NROTC were returned to the Fleet.
Having come from a time when folks who left USNA after Plebe year routinely went to the Fleet (a company classmate of mine did a year in Vietnam as a river boat gunner) I objected to this practice. Of course, nobody asked my opinion.
Then again, C-dore, that was when the Academy had a real Plebe Summer.
No sarcasm at all meant, not like the "my class was the last class with a REAL Plebe Summer" brag-fest. But in recent years the Academy has tried reeeeally hard to reassure the parents of plebes that their precious bundles of joy will be handled with kid gloves and not subjected to anything actually difficult at all. Peeking behind the curtain of the administration is surprising, enlightening (not necessarily in a good way) and a tad bit scary.
Though I suppose I'm diving down an entirely different rabbit-hole now.... :)
Check out the book "The Victorian Internet" - its about the telegraph. The undersea cable did more to change life than the intetubes ever will. The internet and e-mail is a small change compared to sending a telegram from London to Bombay instead of a ship.
Sal, you owe me a bottle of pepto.
Pass the pitcher of mint juleps (I switched from tea about 200 posts ago).
Isn't URR married? A handshake will have to do here, Phib.
Grandpa Bluewater, are you suggesting we stop commenting, or are we free to try and push for 400?
Stupid question, everyone feel free to smack me for asking.
Phil R, what is your capacity or position that you are interacting personally on a regular basis, on weekends, with Midshipmen? Is it official (sponsor)? Semi-official (National Naval Officers Association, Officer's Christian Fellowship, etc)? Or Un-official (Uncle Pervy hanging out in Bancroft Hall in Dress Whites waiting for mids to go out on lib-o)? I ask because I find it irregular for a CDR to have such intimate knowledge of two midshipmen without being officially part of USNA. Again, if I have overstepped, I accept counterbattery...
BZ, Plebe Summer (or Plebe Year for that matter) didn't remove them all. I had a company classmate who was a "political appointee" with similar credentials to my military school classmate. During Plebe Year he couldn't make it from his room to the head without being dropped for 100 push-ups along the way. He eventually accepted that as the way life was going to be for him, graduated, and stayed in the Navy until the LCDR Selection Board showed him the error of his ways.
Salty, I'm betting Sponsor.
"Uncle Pervy"?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
BravoZulu - You got it right about treating the plebes with kid gloves. Of course, recall that a few years ago, USNA got a Meritorious Unit Commendation and one of the items cited in support of the award was the low plebe summer attrition rate. I think the 1/c midn are the last group that was there when it was awarded and every time I see pictures of the 1/c wearing that little ribbon, I laugh.
They have fooled themselves into believing that low attrition is "mission accomplished."
No smacks here. I'm curious too.
Definitely not Uncle. I kinda explained it on the other post relating to this just now.
Unofficial. Trying to reach out and give guidance, in a real way (not just theoretical) with foundation in experience with mistakes. Allow real discussions, and not fakery.
Met most of them in local church. My spouse has the majority of the direct interaction. We are very much like sponsors, but know most of them from church. A long story.
Once again, I am just trying to give them real-life guidance, as I was kind of messed up when I was at USNA (and beyond). Thought I could give back.
Unfortunately, this situation happened and I was unaware until everyone else was.
I can guarantee this will be a topic of discussion with many (as it has been). We will keep harping on the pros and cons of social media.
Now I have to poke my mind's eye out on that one.
Four hundred even!
It ain't steak knives, but maybe it is matching His-and-Hers showercaps or something?
Go Terps! (Navy should have won)
I thought RC and Moon Pies were available up topside?
I was one of the first commenters on this post. I defended midshipmen in general, and wondered how these women were selected.
I am willing to take (CDR) Phil R's word that this vid was indeed a satire, and in light of this, the midshipmen involved do not deserve separation as some suggest. However, when I watched it (only once, hurriedly,) I did not get the impression that the vid was satirical - perhaps because I frequently work in communities where the type of behavior displayed in the vid is very real - maybe I saw only what I have been conditioned to see. Maybe I expected this level of integrity and sophistication because of well-meaning but fundamentally flawed admissions policy. Maybe some of the other commenters in this thread are similarly afflicted.
Phil R has invested a great deal of energy defending these midshipmen, rebutting arguments, and providing some facts. I do think that he is too close to the situation to be viewed as totally objective and impartial - but that's understandable given he personally knows the mids involved. However, I still am troubled by some comments from (alleged) midshipmen who were embarrassed by the vid - apparently they were no "in" on the joke, and are not amused. Is it all a big misunderstanding? I for one, regret not reading the comments in the original YouTube post - perhaps this all would have settled everything - or maybe not. I suspect that I will hear more about how midshipmen feel this weekend.
<span>OTOH, he was gone before the end of Plebe Summer.</span>
The saddest part of that story is that there was someone else who really wanted to be there, and possibly could have made a difference to the USN and the nation as a result, but who was denied the chance to "fulfill his destiny" because of that dirtbag.
Parallels to the current diversity-driven admissions process left as a (rather obvious) exercise for the reader.
GOH,
That someone else> Likely a white male. They have no special rights. And the Navy doesn't need 'em.
So don't give it another thought...
ery fair comments, Guest. Thanks. I probably am too close to the situation for an objective view.
Just want to defend against two things.
1) selective outrage
2) racial/sexist personal attacks
aside from that, I can understand and expect the range of feelings on this issue.
Personally, I am disappointed in the judgment aspect and I do not intend to blindly defend the video itself, satire or not, as some kind of first amendment right or anything. Posting the video was wrong. Period.
I told them it was not very good satire. They understand. They also understand the impact on usna image and are deeply apologetic.
This discussion has been long and oftentimes painful/difficult/confrontational, somewhat like in real life (except maybe a bit more aggressive since it is virtual, vice face to face).
Many midshipmen are likely reading this now, as they are gradually becoming very aware of the situation this week.
I would hope that any debate could be used as an example of mature leadership/communication. Senior leaders are supposed to set that example.
Are we doing a good job here in our dialogue? I think in most ways, yes.
However, just like the video in discussion, we do not know who is watching us and learning from us on the 'net. In that way, we are all examples, whether we like it or not - anonymous or otherwise.
Phil,
that is called passive aggressive, Say what you mean and mean what you say..
CDR Phil,
Thank you for being the voice of reason on this board. I'm sure the Academy has their ways to deal with these midshipmen who displayed poor judgement. I agree that expelling them would be a harsh penality, as I have painfully read the same comments you have. The Academy has been around a long time and I trust their decision on how they will handle the matter.
Doug
"<span> The Academy has been around a long time and I trust their decision on how they will handle the matter. "</span>
The problem being, Doug, that the Academy has shown so many times that they are NOT to be trusted regarding how they handle a matter.
Be it a phantom dual track admissions policy based on race, ethnicity, and gender, dual track academic standards based on the same, the shameful Potemkin Color Guard incident of last Autumn, the retention of a Middie with a terrible academic and conduct record after a pop for drugs (who happens to be black and a star running back), the subsequent outright lying about the Color Guard and the football program funding, the leadership has proven untrustworthy through and through.
So don't portray those who question and closely examine such decisions and actions. To do otherwise after the last 18 months of leadership failure at USNA is the unreasonable course.
<span>"<span> The Academy has been around a long time and I trust their decision on how they will handle the matter. "</span>
The problem being, Doug, that the Academy has shown so many times that they are NOT to be trusted regarding how they handle a matter.
Be it a phantom dual track admissions policy based on race, ethnicity, and gender, dual track academic standards based on the same, the shameful Potemkin Color Guard incident of last Autumn, the retention of a Middie with a terrible academic and conduct record after a pop for drugs (who happens to be black and a star running back), the subsequent outright lying about the Color Guard and the football program funding, the leadership has proven untrustworthy through and through.
So don't portray those who question and closely examine such decisions and actions as being somehow unreasonable. To do otherwise after the last 18 months of leadership failure at USNA is the unreasonable course.</span>
MTH,
"<span>Say what you mean and mean what you say"</span>
I am afraid that is a part of the warrior ethos, and if there is anything guys like Phil seem to hate, it is that. It is the same mentality that makes Admirals declare that Petty Officers cannot carry sidearms or long guns while standing an armed post.
A Global Force for Milquetoast.
"<span>The Academy has been around a long time </span>"
Doug,
That means nothing. The Academy is not a living being - but it is only what its present leadership makes it. USNA is actually very young in that its top leadership has a huge turnover and it shifts course with each and every new leader. I would also offer that you review the original reasons Yale, Harvard, and Dartmouth were founded and see what has happened to them in the last 50 years.
If you let the wrong kind of leaders do what they want to an institution without being held accountable, they can and will warp it in ways that totally change it in ways that make it unrecognizable. The only thing that will look the same will be the buildings. A building is not an institution though - it is the people and its mission that make it. Better a great institution run out of a strip mall than a farce run out of pretty Georgian and neo-classical buildings.
I vote snuggies
Douglas,
Congress has been around a long time too, and their hope and change has bankrupted the entire country. Do you trust them to always "do the right thing?"
If you believe in nepotism, perhaps you'd be happier in a monarchy?
I sincerely respect your post. Thank you for providing this response. I understand your position a little better. Thanks for taking the time and putting in the effort.
Additionally, I thank you for your service.
Phil,
I am not intending to provoke a confrontation and you will know by commentary, I do not shy away from one either. My initial opinion of you was that you are invested in this outcome no matter what. I can appreciate your position and listened. The issue many like me have is NOT these two particular Midshipmen. No, it is the system that allows and fosters such behavior. The systemic failure in leadership and culture that allowed this to occur.
My beef with you is specific to the comment you made about the parent relationship and sexual minefield guidance etc... it is those same thoughts on mentoring, leadership and treating these ADULTS like children that allows this environment to grow. They need Discipline. They need a set of rules and they need accountability.
I have not ipugned your integrity. I have questioned your methods.
URR,
Like you I have been to war, studied war, had relatives in war, and have studied it my whole life. That is why this is so painful to watch. These midshipmen walk in the steps of Farragut, Decatur, Nimitz, Halsey and others.. they need to understand that and act like it. Someday my Sons life and his shipmates (or Marines) will depend on it...
Mr. T,
Fair statements, and I will sincerely take them under advisement.
I am cautious, and the mids (all of them) probably recognize that I try to maintain some distance and to prevent too much closeness or fraternization. This particular situation is not a good representation of the norm, at all.
However, I do need to be vigilant that I maintain the proper mixture of distance, discipline, mentorship, and example. I take your feedback, as well as that from others, very seriously.
Thank you again for your response.
Mr. T,
Thanks for the suggestion. I will probably do so, but not just for the 2 young women. It looks like a great study, and will be good extra preparation for them (beyond USNA leadership training).
Not sure if they are issued this, but I doubt it. I will ask.
Thanks again for the suggestion...
Perhaps the academy needs a more permanent leadership structure, with a retired admiral serving as supe.
URR and GOH, Both of the "political appointees" that I referred to in my comment were white males. Of course in those days most midshipmen were. In my 100+ man company Plebe year there were only 3 minorities---1 black, 1 Asian, and 1 Latino.
Right, C-Dore. And I bet each of the three were QUALIFIED. They got there on merit, like everyone else, not because they were made targets of recruiting drives with a list of exceptions and lower standards as long as your arm.
Guest, That's what they did in the mid-90s when they brought back ADM Larson. I'd like to propose a more radical approach, a retired Flag who isn't an alum and thus doesn't have emotional ties to the place beyond that of a professional officer interested in turning out a quality graduate.
Didn't they bring in one non-alumnus as Dant -- Capt Jack Darby. The scuttlebutt was that he wsa the midn's best friend and they could do no wrong. Reportedly, during his tenure, it had shades of what was going on in the mid-2000s. Can anyone confirm/deny?
Vol I of Funk and Wagnalls. Leaves something to aspire to.
Gator (an old nickname of mine, by the way):
Hell, go for 500. I just wished to add a note of humility and dignity to what might soon degenerate into a vulgar brawl.
This could be a last minute double save, if handled right.
Kind of like the back handed compliment of 3 days white wine and wedding cake at the Greybar Hotel. A "you are either going to climb the north face or walk the plank, but this is your last interview, it's up to you" moment, if you will.
Besides only the hooves are recognizable of the gelatinous mass which was once one of the equine species. Perhaps we should go in search of something else to flay and flog.
"<span>Isn't URR married?"</span>
Er, no.
Veritas, Don't know about Darby but in the early '80s a non-grad named McCauley was the "Dant, and he wasn't anybody's friend.
The video has since been reposted and I have seen the video and several of my friends have seen the video. We were disgusted by the way they were acting in the video. It was never entertaining at any point. It was obnoxious, unnecessary and inappropriate.
A hint?
"some conduct offenses ... there are some honor offenses that are not remediable ..."
Superintendent's Brief to the Alumni, Part 1By United States Naval Academy
http://www.facebook.com/USNavalAcademy
If you think West Point is any different, you are wrong.
I am happy for you, I am glad you were able to raise a perfectly sheltered child who when put in a real leadership position will not have the experience to effectively lead.
Whatever happened with these mids?
One was given a long term of restriction. The other was separated.
One was given a long term of restriction. The other was separated.
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