I think this tells us a lot more about the United States Naval Academy and what it has not done in the last couple of years than it does about these two MIDN.
After a couple of years at Annapolis - has the Academy failed this bad to explain to these future leaders where they are and the fact that they are the stewards of their institution's image?
If this was taken at spring break or at a house party some place - no big deal. What is important here is location and context.
Well - I'll let you hash it out in comments - just know that in a couple of years - here's you new DivO; product of what we sell to the taxpayers as one of our most rigorous academic and leadership building institutions.
Supe - you've got your hands full. Good luck.
Oh, don't bother ordering them to take the video down. Already, a few dozen people and I have downloaded it using keepvid.
UPDATE: As expected, if it makes it to CDRSalamander - it gets pulled by lunch. Here is the questions I have for you - I have the video: should I repost it on YouTube? I'll start the comment - make your responses there.
UPDATE II - Electric Boogaloo: OK, here is the compromise. Over the afternoon and evening I have had the chance to talk to a few folks associated with Annapolis on this topic. By a wide margin, they are pro-repost.
I am of two minds of this. The Blogg'r in me thinks: after all, it was up for months in a public space by the author and was only taken down when it was brought to a much wider audience. This was done by adults in full knowledge of what they were doing.
The retired CDR in me says: point made - move on.
However we have another thing going on. Some of the comments have gone down rat-holes that are not germane to the discussion here. Side issues perhaps if more facts were known - but not really something that needs to be pinged on. That is where the Evangelical Libertarian in me comes in to play. I firmly believe in redemption. I also firmly believe that adults can only make informed decisions when they have the facts in front of them. Like Gov. Chris Christie (R-NJ) - I believed in treating adults like adults.
So, I am going to triangulate myself. I have re-posted the video, but as an "unlisted" youtube video. It is not public, and can only be seen by those I allow to see it (and should make my pal Lawyer Andrew happy).
If this was taken at spring break or at a house party some place - no big deal. What is important here is location and context.
Well - I'll let you hash it out in comments - just know that in a couple of years - here's you new DivO; product of what we sell to the taxpayers as one of our most rigorous academic and leadership building institutions.
Supe - you've got your hands full. Good luck.
Oh, don't bother ordering them to take the video down. Already, a few dozen people and I have downloaded it using keepvid.
UPDATE: As expected, if it makes it to CDRSalamander - it gets pulled by lunch. Here is the questions I have for you - I have the video: should I repost it on YouTube? I'll start the comment - make your responses there.
UPDATE II - Electric Boogaloo: OK, here is the compromise. Over the afternoon and evening I have had the chance to talk to a few folks associated with Annapolis on this topic. By a wide margin, they are pro-repost.
I am of two minds of this. The Blogg'r in me thinks: after all, it was up for months in a public space by the author and was only taken down when it was brought to a much wider audience. This was done by adults in full knowledge of what they were doing.
The retired CDR in me says: point made - move on.
However we have another thing going on. Some of the comments have gone down rat-holes that are not germane to the discussion here. Side issues perhaps if more facts were known - but not really something that needs to be pinged on. That is where the Evangelical Libertarian in me comes in to play. I firmly believe in redemption. I also firmly believe that adults can only make informed decisions when they have the facts in front of them. Like Gov. Chris Christie (R-NJ) - I believed in treating adults like adults.
So, I am going to triangulate myself. I have re-posted the video, but as an "unlisted" youtube video. It is not public, and can only be seen by those I allow to see it (and should make my pal Lawyer Andrew happy).
If you wish to see the video, just email me and I will send you the link for you to use on your own computer and not to forward on to anyone else. Just be patient, as my paying gig keeps me busy - but like all my emails, I will read it and reply if I think you rate the link.
457 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 457 Newer› Newest»OK. That's fair. My error.
"However, she understands now that as a midshipmen African-American female, her actions, especially on video, will be looked at very closely"
Phil, you lost me. BULLSHIT! REALLY?! Her actions will be more scrutinized than a white male?! Not likely. There isn't an entire frickin directorate to bail my ass out of trouble. I'm not on a list for promotions based on my skin color. I'm not elligible for certain awards just because of my skin color.
Take it back, Phil......if this is the advice you are giving her, then you just failed.
Mr. T is part of the Front Porch Wolf Pack, Phil. Careful.....they have a mutual defense clause
Phil, MTH is a regular here and has paid his Navy dues and then some. Would you chastise Granpa Pettibone for the way he pokes errant aviators?
I usually refuse to "like" something that the author likes himself...it's like patting you on the back for patting yourself on the back, but I agree--and I rarely agree with you.
These moments do try men's souls.
They will have to throw slime a long way to get any on me over this, Salty.
The double standard remains. The two Middies in question were dumbasses. For the three minutes everyone now sees of them anyway. But the Diversity Directorate is criminal, and nothing short of it.
Methinks we are in loud agreement. Your above comment that there is no diversity directorate covering you for doing something stupid is salient here. And that indeed has racial overtones.
3 updates, a secret link to the video, and 180+ posts over this? Are you serious?
Two young ladies, bored, with access to a webcam. No live sex. No foul language. No name dropping. Just some poorly chosen potty humor.
On any given day, the talk in any shop in the Navy crosses the line more expicitly and with potentially greater consequences than what these two have done.
Move on.
Points taken. However, the "approved" spirit spots are not quite the height of professionalism and image. A heck of a lot more folks see those as well.
i am not defending the judgment. I am defending more against the personal and racial attacks.
In the end, they will have to answer according to the USNA conduct system. I am not arguing that point so much. That understand that.
The anonymous and cowardly racial attacks is what I am defending against. It is crap and just allow folks to grind axes with little to no context or knowledge of the persons involved. I should just ignore it, but folks keep bringing it up.
Shipmate,
I know you are frustrated. Just keep your head down and let it be handled by a higher level. You don't want the Diversity Mafia coming after you. So steer clear of shoal water! No good can come of it. hopefully they won't become some commanding officer's problem.
Just stay away from it!
Hey remember the John Paul Jones "I'm on a Boat" video? Holy cow. I f****d a mermaid?! I mean, funny video, but that was a mistake. And a real waste of tax dollars.
Still a great video. Just could have done without the f*****g a mermaid in SDB's...
watch out...you are about to be excoriated.
200
I think you are 1/4 phase off. My $.02 - good people can disagree.
I said "look at very closely". I never meant to mean more than a white male. I was trying to say that folks, especially those who are upset about Diversity stuff, will be looking for this kind of thing as a way to prove a point.
Ask a black female if she feels that she needs to work twice as hard to prove her worth. Many have told me this, from midshipman to CAPT.
It is not about the content it is about the CONTEXT. The service academy should be from DAY 1, training the nations warrior leadership. That is why it those institutions exist. What we see is the symptom of a larger disease. The USNA has become a social expierment. Too put it in persepctive about what a service acadmy should be like and the great leaders that they develop I recommend you read 19 stars.. you might learn alot.
<span>It is not about the content it is about the CONTEXT. The service academy should be from DAY 1, training the nations warrior leadership. That is why it those institutions exist. These two "Midshipmen" have wasted that time and treasure and I doubt will ever get a clue with the fostered, toxic environment that waste of a school has become. </span>
<span></span>
<span>What we see is the symptom of a larger disease. The USNA has become a social expierment. To put it in persepctive about what a service acadmy should be like and the great leaders that they develop I recommend you read 19 stars.. you might learn alot.</span>
<span><span>It is not about the content it is about the CONTEXT. The service academy should be from DAY 1, training the nations warrior leadership. That is why it those institutions exist. These two "Midshipmen" have wasted that time and treasure and I doubt will ever get a clue with the fostered, toxic environment that waste of a school has become. </span>
<span></span>
<span>What we see is the symptom of a larger disease. The USNA has become a social experiment. To put it in persepective about what a service academy should be like and the great leaders that they develop, I recommend you read 19 stars.. you might learn alot.</span></span>
Phil R,
I did not intend the Irony.. I am speaking in the venacular to the audience I want to charge with placing their nation above themselves... have to concur with you, that is pretty funny..
I just need something to laugh about.
At least I dont make video's of my stupidity...
Warrior leadership? Never heard of it! >:o
'ell naw! :-D
(Yeah, some of us remember previous online stupidity and double standards.)
Don't mess with teh MTH fan club here. Right quick way to empty the porch on yourself.
As I sit here thinking about this and reflect on my sons future, I am concerned about all of our institutions.. Does VMI still produce warriors? The Citadel?
Okay, Curtis, I'll play. Read "The Agony and the Ecstasy"
Michaelangelo chose his marble blocks very carefully. Made sure there were no inherent flaws that would cause it to splinter or crack in half when the stress of carving began. Made sure the veins and impurities that exist even in the most flawless block of marble would work to enhance the finished product, not detract from the overall effect. In choosing the stone, his job was to find the sculpture within the stone, not impose his own upon it. The utmost care was taken in selecting the raw materials. And that's why his works have stood the test of time.
I think he realized that I was making a joke. Sorry if it did not come across that way. Dry humor, I guess.
Way to go Admissions, way to go Admiral F. Plenty of qualified HUMANS and high school graduates out there, and a quota has to be filled by people like this. Can't we just pick the best and the brightest, regardless of anything? Obviously not. These girls are amongst the poorest, nastiest representation of what Annapolis has to offer.
its a spirit spot. this is an Annapolis tradition, by the way, many of the warriors in this video are doing incredible things on the grounds of Afghanistan right now, I know from personal experience. This isn't even comparable to the sick and nasty trash displayed by Annapolis' worst.
Navig8r, This season the strategy appears to be "Give the ball to Dobbs and hope he doesn't fumble". Takes me back to the years when Nap McCallum played.
Your opinion is noted.
How about we send a copy to every living grad and ask them if they approve or disapprove? Yes/no vote and be done with it. I am willing to accept the vote, are you?
I disapprove.
Well, Phil, that may be because there is an entire command dedicated to make sure that they succeed and get promoted, but that is neither hither nor yonder. As I said earlier, and YOU AGREED WITH, DIVERSITY AND OR RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS VIDEO. You agreed with me when it was in your interests to, so don't start throwing out diversity and victimhood! I'm not buying it!
I won't let someone start railing on diversity directorate in the same breath that they criticize these two mids who JUST HAPPEN TO BE BLACK, so don't start crying about any negative attention that they brought upon themselves or how it may or may not affect them differently because of their skin color. PUH-LEAZE. Save the crocodile tears for someone else...I'm just a Salty Gator.
cdr ashore, you gotta be kidding me. MR T's Haircut has it right. It's about the context. This would be a complete non-issue had they done this on leave, in the basement of their own home, in something other than USNA issued clothing. Instead, they are acting as official spokespersons for the U.S. Naval Academy and the U.S. Navy. Indeed, they even present themselves as "Real Mids." Well, my son, a Mid at the Academy is offended, as am I, a USNA grad. I hear they received the boot yesterday. I sure hope it's true. Waiting for some proof from my source.
I fail to see how this video is in any way related to the one in question. This is a spirit spot filmed in a generic location. I do not see how this brings any discredit on the Navy or the Naval Academy.
What does it matter if I hear them "speak intelligently?" Does that mitigate any of my thoughts? It they are intelligent, then they should easily be able to understand why they are getting the reaction they are getting. Do they really need that explained by me via or does anyone at Annapolis have the ability to mentor them accordingly?
For our Nations sake, I hope not..
<span>What does it matter if I hear them "speak intelligently?" Does that mitigate any of my thoughts? It they are intelligent, then they should easily be able to understand why they are getting the reaction they are getting. Do they really need that explained by me via long distance or email or perhaps better does anyone at Annapolis have the ability to mentor them accordingly?</span>
VMI has never produced warriors. They produce fluffy bunnies and adorable little kittens who wear grey uniforms in imitation of their betters at The Citadel. They're also notorious sheepshaggers.
Can you guess which of those two schools I went to? O:-)
Phil,
I got the joke. I am a humble person.
My friends defend me and it is appreciated.
You would see this Nome de, I have chosen allows me a certain freedom to answer the Navy bull)(@ with brevity and humor.. Taking MR T's Lead, I can say what many feel by replying simply "PAIN!"
I like to keep it simple.
Also, this was likely done over the USNA network.
DB,
My girl!
Sources indicate that these two mids have not been booted, but they did get a personal interview today with Admirals Mullen and Roughead. Since diversity is the Navy's number one priority, the Admirals probably politely asked them not to post anything else. Now if warfighting capability had been the Navy's number one priority, then another outcome might have been possible.
Delta, I'm putting that comment up there as one of your best ever!
Good god, the Doctors are treating the symtoms instead of the disease...
I would prefer the good Admirals focus on stuff that matters.. like ending the non warfighting spending (read DIVERSITY DIRECTORATE, ETC) and husband the resources and BUILD A NAVY....
<span>Good god, the Doctors are treating the symptoms instead of the disease...
I would prefer the good Admirals focus on stuff that matters.. like ending the non warfighting spending (read DIVERSITY DIRECTORATE, ETC) and husband the resources and BUILD A NAVY....</span>
The mids showed poor judgment but this is not the shocking abomination some make it out to be. For all the talk of Annapolis as a warrior factory, the mids are still dumb college kids. The will make the same mistakes as dumb college kids at civilian schools. This will continue as long as we keep "collegifying" the usna. Even if we went back to a strict military environment we still have the age factor. This is the age bracket of our most junior enlisted. Show of hands: who has a dumb seaman story? Well not all seamen are meant to be masterchiefs and not all mids are meant to be admirals. And before the next round of "well I never!" pearl clutching take a moment and reflect on your own college idiocy and thank god YouTube didn't exist then. Agree with sal that this was foolish but let's keep it in context.
Having Mullen and Roughead "speak" to these two is like having Manny Ramirez preach on the virtues of running out ground balls.
AR,
With respect having been both a "dumb Seaman" and an Officer.. I say there is a VERY large difference in expectations and actions between Officer and Enlisted. And there should be. Other wise we would not need the two seperate classes in the military...
I expect my Officers to lead. I expect them to the the model of integrity at all times and more importantly I expect the system to self correct and develop those Officers.
This current sham of a Service Academy is dangerously close to the point of "oh what is that ring on your finger? Oh your one of "those" kind of Officers.." as I disregard what they try to tell my Dumb Seaman self...
Would be interesting to get VADM Miller's take on this. As a grad, I am disgusted by the video, but would like to hear how the new leadership feels about it?
USNA leadership have released a new/improved social media...today. Sent to brigade.
Sorry, AR. I will tell you what I told Phil.
<span>When my education/salary was taxpayer-funded, I did not fail any classes, nor was I on academic probation or required to attend summer school. I did not appear in any movies or videos where I disparaged the very institution I had agreed to serve.
I was also accepted at the college I attended based on merit of my high school performance, in a double-blind process. </span>
I raised some hell in college and beyond, but nothing so intentionally disrespectful of the institution and service I belonged to as this. Maybe you did. But I didn't. Nor did anybody I know.
untrue. sorry you are not satisfied yet.
<span>Sorry, AR. I will tell you what I told Phil.
<span>When my education/salary was taxpayer-funded, I did not fail any classes, nor was I on academic probation or required to attend summer school. I did not appear in any movies or videos where I disparaged the very institution I had agreed to serve.
I was also accepted at the college I attended based on merit of my high school performance, in a double-blind process. </span>
I raised some hell in college and beyond, but nothing so intentionally disrespectful of the institution and service I belonged to as this. Maybe you did. But I didn't. Nor did anybody I know. Had we done so, we would have been bounced out so hard on our a**es that we would have left dents in the sidewalk outside the ROTC building.
</span>
Mob rule always works. Good suggestion.
AR - I would extend your remarks to point out that we judge people as individuals (or ought to - take a look at any Diversity Thursday item - I would think I was preaching to the choir about this).
I understand the thought that when wearing uniform items they give the impression they are acting in some sort of official capacity, but otherwise they don't represent any group other than themselves.
Must be nice to have been born model of valor. The rest of us had to learn from our mistakes. Luckily none of mine were caught on camera. I'm not saying what they did was good and they deserve to be held accountable. But I think some are blowing it out of proportion to advance agendas.
Quote from my roommate: "OH MY GOD! STOP RUINING MY SCHOOL!"
And they aren't officers yet. If they are still doing shit like this on commissioning day we have a problem. Right now we have mids who did something stupid. So how does the academy adress the issue and correct the defect?
"<span>Must be nice to have been born model of valor"</span>
What a load of crap. What I did have was parents and teachers and Officers who led me who reinforced that you did what you were supposed to, and didn't do what you weren't supposed to. And don't embarrass yourself, your family, your school, or your service.
The fact that these two decided to say what they said, and act the way they did, for the specific purpose of recording it and posting it, indicates HUGE leadership failures. Yet again. From Officers and from an institution that is becoming known for leadership failure.
Tough to blow THAT out of proportion.
I would also be happy to provide mentoring. Sal has my email. Sal, use the gmail. The dot mil has changed.
Devry?
AR,
One thing the CNO could do right away is reinstill a Warrior Ethos to the Academy. Next is kill the Diversity Driven recruitment and return to he Meritocracy that has served the nation so well.
Next is demand a set of standards. My nephew was his congressional nomination this year to the USNA. He didnt clear medical waivers for his Astigmatism. He chose the Academy and was chased by other schools. Now thankfully he is not there because I would hate to sound so hypocrtical to a relative while trying to defend the indefensible.. But the Standards were enforced Medically and I respect that. How many Academic Standards based on Race?
I dont care what happens to the two Mids in question, I am more interested in how this will be remedied in the future.. meanwhile Sailors below the rank of E-5 can't carry a weapon on Surface ships... really? Our Navy is in Shoal water.
Andrew,
exactly, and that self represented group is charged by the tax payer to learn a military education and be able when called to lead men and women into combat.. they have failed in my opinion.. and like the Navy is so quick to point out, this is a LEADERSHIP FAILURE at the USNA highest levels.
Ok so we agree. Mids arrive as dumb kids with the exception of URR who apparently emerged from the womb the second coming of Chesty Puller. WHAT is the academy doing to fix it? No one starts plebe summer ready to command. Anyone who thinks they were is a fool. But I agree, MTH, that the academy needs to spot judgment fail like this and fix the defects before commissioning day.
Knock off the smug crap. You are above that. The "we all did it" line is an excuse. We didn't all do that. Especially not the part disparaging our comrades, our school, or our service.
One of us is admitting mistakes. One of us is claiming perfection. Which one is smug? I have read comments by you publicly disparaging senior leadership and the commander in chief. I do not know if you are active or retired but if you tell me you never made an unfavorable remark about your chain of command I call the bullshit. You, however, were smart enough not to film it. So knock off the holier than thou crap.
Last sentence: agree. And I'm sure thanks to diversity paranoia leaders will be walking on eggshells when what these girls reall need is a tough love counseling on their judgment.
In your haste to type your next snide comment, you must have missed this:
"<span><span>I raised some hell in college and beyond"</span></span>
Yes, I do publicly criticize senior leadership, of the Defense Department, of USNA, and in the White House. Sometimes severely. This is a forum for it, and I am not on active duty nor subject to the UCMJ, and I make my remarks as an expression of my dissatisfaction with them in the offices they serve and the performance of their duties. Which, as a taxpayer, I do indeed believe I still have the right to do.
So don't try and equate the exercise of my rights here to the misconduct of these two Midshipmen.
Nobody is claiming perfection of any kind. But, as Captain DeVries told us, "There are mistakes, and there are mistakes."
This is a big mistake. An embarrassing one.
But it is also, and much more importantly, a reflection of a near complete LEADERSHIP FAILURE.
1) Folks wearing Navy PT gear, like the girls. Many are in this identifiable PT uniform.
2) Mids acting not at the height of professional conduct. Pretty strange video, with some nice objectification of women (pelvic thrusts) and PDA (kissing) at the end. I guess it is OK because some folks in it went to Afghanistan, though. Strange argument, but OK.
3) Video is tagged "Navy" in youtube and is one of first to come up. Nice for recruiting.
4) 328K views. Not just a small local interest in this video, linked to our esteeemed institution. Think about it - this video regarding USNA has been viewed as many times as there are active component sailors in today's whole Navy.
Difference: for some idiotic reason, the USNA administration "approved" it. Worse, they allow it to be continually shared via youtube!!! Perhaps today's newly released social media policy will change that.
All I ask if for consistency in outrage. I say let's purge it all!!!
Wow! Much Wisdom in this comment..
Fair statements. Thanks. Glad there is a social media statement too.
Gee, CNO and the Supe have "spoken" to these Mids, and a "Social Media Statement" has been issued. I'm sure that everyone is deeply impressed.
Perhaps they should have "spoken" with anyone familiar with the UCMJ who might have referred then to Articles 133 and 134 which seem to clearly apply.
Everyone has the ight to make a complete a$$ of themselves, but when you do it in uniform, or after clearly identifing yourself as a Midshipman, then there should be consequences.
But this CNO doesn't seem to believe in holding anyone at the academy accountable for anything except meeting his diversity goals.
CNO did not talk to them. Confirmed from the girls. Supe did yesterday.
Agree completely. From a USMC friend:
<span>Aside from all of the legal and PAO dribble, why not just look back at your mission statement...</span>
<p>
</p><p>To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government.
</p><p>
</p><p>If you are dumb enough to post something on the internet that would be questionable it would suggest that by your actions you are not capable of meeting the mission of the USNA. To simplify it even more - expel students that act like idiots instead of drafting rules to govern their every action. It would seem to me that you would want some open opportunities to afford you a chance to see their judgment in action. This is the only way that you will be able to identify the problems and remove them before they get someone killed.
</p><p>
</p><p>The USNA argues that their high standards and military environment should exclude potential USMC officers from not participating in OCS. I wonder if either of these find midshipmen will want to become Marine Officers? When will we identify if they have the right stuff, at TBS, which is after they have been commissioned.
</p>
"<span>but they did get a personal interview today with Admirals Mullen and Roughead."</span>
That's very disappointing. I am sure there are many young people who would love the opportunity to speak with these leaders...but I guess this it what it takes
So now they're girls? Not to split hairs Phil..but I'm one of those too...girls...err..women. Again not to marginalize or get all women's lib but these are adults and they can't be forgiven as children. And girl is somehow forgiving to me.
They signed up for this...THEY TOOK AN OATH...they are as accountable as every enlisted sailor in the fleet...
women. since we know them personally (and we are like parents), we call them girls. sorry to offend your sensibilities. made a mistake in posting that publicly. my mistake.
Phil R,
they dont need parents they need leaders..
This is an asinine rumor and is untrue. Your sources are false, unless cno and cjcs talked to two other midshipmen women.
Then why does the Naval Academy promote parents' weekend? Obviously, they need parents AND leaders...and mentors. They are not mutually exclusive.
260+ comments and counting... nothing to stir discussion like private vid with 2 young women (mis)behaving...
They have parents.. What they need is discipline and leadership. A concept that works. I would take personal offense at someone presuming to be a parent to my child. Leadership is another matter. You patronize them (pun intended) when you call them girls and explain it away that you are some how a parent to them.. I expect you to be Commander in the United States Navy to them. Period.
Just to be clear: this is not a private video. This was public on YouTube. There is a private video setting which requires a user name and login. There is another setting which allows only those to whom you send the link to view it.
Public institution. public video. taxpayers dollars.
Want to trivialize this through a snarky comment? Ask these women why they trivialized their APPOINTMENT to the Naval Academy in the first place.
Soooo, how do we get access to said video?
You are making assumptions, with no evidence, regarding their personal lives. You do not have all the facts. If you did, I am sure you would not be offended by someone filling the role of parent/mentor. By their own choice, they refer to us as parents. That's why the Naval Academy has a sponsor family program. In no way did I intend to patronize or offend anyone by using the word "girls." We call the mids girls/guys. I will not use the term again in this forum. Regarding your last comment, I assure you that I behave as a CDR in the United States Navy. There is great responsibility that comes with the rank. I took immediate action when I discovered the video yesterday. They were well-informed and counseled about their error in judgment.
It takes a village to raise officers.
It apparently takes a village to raise officers.
@ Phil, well then that is good.
Phil,
I will repeat: I am not trying to split hairs. I applaud you for continuing to contribute to the conversation and taking action. And your continual question in this forum makes for a very good debate that is thought-provoking.
There are many of us, very deeply connected to the Academy and like you, I live in Annapolis. The sponsorship program is important, to the mids and to the everyone that supports it. It builds, among other things, a bridge: between young and old, military and civilian, institution and local, etc.
I am not offended by your use of 'girl' in that I don't personalize it. Believe me, I see the MIDN everyday, and everyday they are younger and younger - because I am older and older. I have to remind myself when I hear comments during induction like, "those poor plebes," that yes, they are in a brutal awakening but they are being trained for warfare, for combat, to serve their country in an ARMED service.
They should take this seriously - and those that sponsor them locally should give them guidance. You are doing that - I get it - but don't ever forget that forgiveness and redemption are not the same as excusing behavior.
MTH doesn't yell "Irony!"
He yells "Pain!"
And we love him for it.
yes, as a taxpayer you can. my point, however, was that I'm pretty sure you did in uniform too...which makes you no better...just less idiotic as your disrespect was not videotaped.
I would like to know what your hellraising consisted of and where, in your mind, the line is between forgiveable youthful folly and fundamental character flaw.
So, Phil, since you're in the know. My son, a 3/c, tells me his company 1/c came back from a meeting yesterday and said the girls are to be kicked out by the end of the week. Is this true? Are they being separated or are they being retained, which is my bet. Inquiring minds want to know.
If I can change the subject ever so slightly - it seems we've often discussed the problems of the "Zero Defect Mentality" and how that is a bad thing. Was it ADM Nimitz that grounded a ship and went on to show rather good leadership and accomplish a lot of good (not that grounding a ship isn't worthy of "Bad Things")?
Why is cashiering these young ladies not the same kind of over-reaction as the Zero Defect stuff?
Andy - and as you know, fighting, even when one ultimately wins, can be beastly expensive. We don't do "winner pays" in this country except in very unusual situations.
JV football is a much better way to spend time!
The sources may be incorrect, but they are from within Bancroft Hall. And if the Brigade widely believes this to be true, it would seem to fall outside of the "asinine" category, independent of whether or not it actually happened.
Perhaps the USNA Administration could provide some plain, unvarnished truth to the mids? If done, it would be the first time in many years.
The demonstrated level of interest in this incident provides the new Superintendent with an unparalleled opportunity vis-a-vis the Brigade that cannot be addressed by a mere "Social Media Statement." There are many issues that he needs to address at USNA, this is just one place to start that happens to have been teed up for him on the 17th at Sawgrass. As a result, he's looking at a tiny green, a lot of water, and a huge gallery. Your honor, your honor.
<span>To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government. </span>
I respectfully request to these two MIDS that they do the long blue line a favor and please leave, they do not belong.
There's a difference?
There's a difference? Integrity fail. I suppose I missed the memo about holding myself to different standards on duty vs. off duty.
Why do we have the academy to develop MIDSHIPMAN morally, mentally and physically correct?
Yes these young ladies have made a mistake, but they will learn from it. They are not commisioned yet. To have this come out is a great learning key for midshipman for they are human beings, and from someone of their generation a video like this was bound to catch a CDR's or higher up eye sooner or later. This is by far not the worst video but they were the unlucky one's whose LT or Senior/Gunny did not see the video first to have them take it down.
Reminder realize this is a different generation in so many ways. Look at the technological differences from your own generation in comparison to the present one. Then have an opinion on the video. Yes poor judgement but not one that they should leave for.
This is BS! Mids are not girls/guys; they do not need parent other than their own. They simple need leaders and mentors. These statements marginalize the USNA and all Mids that have gone before these 2 Sailors and they should be held accountable for their actions. Are mids not held to the same standard as those in the Fleet WRT our core values? Are you saying that an enlisted Sailor of 18 years old has more maturity and accountability than a mid at the USNA? If that is the case maybe an enlisted Sailor with 4 years active duty service should gain a commission over these 2 mids? Because I know for a fact that the enlisted force instills accountability and develops leadership skills from day one at bootcamp. As an enlisted Sailor it sickens me to see how the standard of the USNA has diminished. From the football player smoking dope to these two nitwits. When a mid puts on that butterbar at graduation...they are will be seen as one thing by junior enlisted Sailors and that is an Officer. If this is what the USNA is producing as Officers I feel sorry for our Navy.
Wow, I have to check with the Alumni Association to see if we qualify as a mob. Or maybe a group of professionals who graduated from what used to be a prestigious school.
Integrity transcends generations.. Stop explaining it away, and read from the bottom up. You are not offering a lot of value to the commentary. And the way you write is hurting my head...
Disgusting!!! In every way imaginable. Supe, may you show these creatures the door.
You are pretty sure I did in uniform? Wow. How so? Did you follow me in my 28 years of service? You interviewed my Marines, those I commanded, served with, led? Perhaps you interviewed those who commanded me. Maybe those who served with me in combat?
I can show you my Page 11, but I really don't recall any charges of disrespect, or any counseling sessions, or any other disciplinary action, for that matter. Is there something that I don't know about in my SRB?
ActusRhesus, you ought to know better than to impugn someone's service record with unfounded accusations of misconduct. I can give you the names of a large number of the Officers and Marines I served with. A great many still keep in touch with me. Feel free to call them and talk to them. Ask them whether any of them ever heard me criticize political leadership or senior military leadership while I was in uniform. Ever. Then you can tell everybody here what you found out.
Until then, kindly keep your mouth shut about accusations of misconduct. Such behavior is despicable and dishonorable. Any credibility you might have ever had with me is gone.
Phil.
Not casting aspersions at you. I meant that I expect any Commander to do his duty and that does not include being a Parent. It does include being a Leader. Define Parenthood in your definition of Leadership if you will, I do not.
Inferring upon your comment about assumptions about their personal lives: I take that to mean they used the excuse of not having any idea it was wrong because they didnt have a parent to teach them wrong or right? That flies in the face of earlier commentary about the back ground of said Midshipmen coming from a geographical area of the city...
Cheers
So...What happened to the concept of sending failed middies out to the fleet as unrated enlisted in order to pay off their taxpayer funded free ride?
then I am assuming you will say the same for the lacrosse team and their video???
Actually I voted for McCain, but it is not like McCain had a tough time at the academy or anything
<span>"Look at the technological differences from your own generation in comparison to the present one. Then have an opinion on the video. Yes poor judgement but not one that they should leave for."</span>
Whats with all this nuveau exceptionalism?
I will argue that those ghetto middies are in no more a period of dramatic change the navy has been through than were these old salts....
Well, thank you, Gator! :-D
That's Phib, second from the right....
<span>You are pretty sure I criticized civilian and senior leadership while in uniform? Wow. How so? Did you follow me in my 28 years of service? You interviewed my Marines, those I commanded, served with, led? Perhaps you interviewed those who commanded me. Maybe those who served with me in combat?
I can show you my Page 11, but I really don't recall any charges of disrespect, or any counseling sessions, or any other disciplinary action, for that matter. Is there something that I don't know about in my SRB?
ActusRhesus, you ought to know better than to impugn someone's service record with unfounded accusations of misconduct. I can give you the names of a large number of the Officers and Marines I served with. A great many still keep in touch with me. Feel free to call them and talk to them. Ask them whether any of them ever heard me criticize political leadership or senior military leadership while I was in uniform. Ever. Then you can tell everybody here what you found out.
Until then, kindly keep your mouth shut about accusations of misconduct. Such behavior is despicable and dishonorable. Any credibility you might have ever had with me is gone.</span>
technological difference in the sense of webcam, internet, communication capabilites, etc.
No.... McCain waited and had his tough time in another place. But his appreciation of his USNA legacy and his loyalty to his shipmates helped him keep focus during those "tough times."
To be very clear...you are not a leader of enlisted Sailors. That is the responsibility of Chief Petty Officers.
And as a taxpayer and alum, I would not object if they leave and the Supe doesn't require them to serve in the fleet or even payback. Just be gone.
Hey Looking,
Sid is telling that this was the Navy that went from SAIL to STEAM... LISTEN to what he is saying.. If you dont want to listen get off the porch... these old timers saw more change then these two idiots. Your argument is weak.
USNALOOKING, there is nothing really new under the sun.
Phones and film are a century plus old now.
Humans have been communicating since...well...they were human.
That the conveyances are different is absolutely no excuse for unacceptable comportment.
SCPO,
With due respect, Officers are leaders by their appearance and personal conduct at all times. A rifle company commander is not a squad leader, but the leadership example that commander sets very much affects every squad in his company, and his squad and platoon leaders.
the BMSN's complained that the failed Middies didnt want to chip paint.. and then the failed Middies went U/A. Bad money after Bad.. easier to Chit can them.
URR, that's it. resort to ad hominems. We all know that doing a thing and being caught doing a thing are not mutually inclusive and I REFUSE to believe that in 28 years of service you never, NEVER ONCE made an under your breath muttered comment about your idiot department head, clueless XO, batshit Senator, the fool in the White House etc. Really? You expect me to believe that?
YOU have lost all credibility with me with your insistence that you never showed poor judgment. Or maybe I'm wrong and you really are Christ walking.
You read the post for direction.
I did PQS with guys like you...... *DONT_KNOW*
I'm with Anon. These are women.
Doubtful either of these young Midshipmen have the fortitude to endure what McCain and his shipmates endured. I wouldnt trust these two indiviudals to run the Gee-Dunk. How will they counsel the first discipline case they have to handle? They have crapped in their own house and have no respect for the Navy or the institution..
Oh, I'd LOVE to write the speech. I'd love to give it. (Picture the Supe in front of a large flag.)
Okay, you special little flowers, let's get one thing straight. Your generation is NOT special! You take pictures of yourself as if you are worthy of memorialization. You have done nothing worth writing home about yet. However, you think nothing happens unless you've filmed it. Everything is worthy of posterity. I have news for you. This is not Hollywood. You want to be a movie star? You can leave right now. Just trudge on down King George Street with your cameras because this is not the place for you.
In fact, most of the serious, earthshaking or really important things that go on in the world are not filmed and posted on the internet. And before we ever trust you with any national secrets, we're going to determine whether or not you have the discretion to know what belongs on film or not.
In 2009 15,388 people applied for the seats you occupy. 14,188 were denied admission. If you cannot take the privelege of attending this service academy seriously, you have cheated 14,187 out of something they valued more than you did. And we will see that you join them outside these walls.
Do you see this? It is a $10 bill. I have many young relatives who spend all their living waking breathing hours on the computer. I have promised them $10 for every new picture and video they find having to do with this Academy. They WILL find you and your movie or picture. You can run, but you cannot hide. God help you if I do not find that video or picture to be in good taste or reflective of the dignity and honor earned in blood by those Fallen Naval Officers commemorated in Memorial Hall. You will find yourself walking down King George Street in civilian clothes before the sun goes down.
That is a promise.
End speech.
I'm posting it in full tomorrow after you-know-what.
gun deckers.. oh the shame...
<span>"can only be seen by those I allow to see it"</span>
Yanoo, I read and enjoy your site daily.
Have done so for years.
I am thrilled about the Friday posts.
I dread Diversity Thrusday.
I get the chills when I see this;
<span>"can only be seen by those I allow to see it"</span>
Reminds me of some island south of Florida. Some countries east of Europe. Parts of Africa. Parts of South America. Gaining ground on North America.
Like your site and will still lurk around it, RoyK
HAHA I like it! From DB's mouth to God's ears...
AR,
You haven't seen the football since kickoff.
Especially if you can't see the difference between muttering under one's breath about one's natural enemy, which is the next higher headquarters, and public criticism while in uniform, in front of juniors, of senior military leadership or civilian leadership. That is among the most serious breaches of one's office that a leader can make.
Which is what you told me you were sure I did. But you really aren't sure. You are just running off at the mouth about something you don't know and don't seem to understand.
Doing that is despicable. Call it ad hominem if you want. But you are accusing me of violating the UCMJ and my oath of office, as well as poor leadership. That is easy to do over a forum like this. But it is despicable and dishonorable. And not a little cowardly.
Bra-VO!
maybe I am looking from a perspective different than ya'lls. I am open to knew ideas and I believe I see what you two are saying.
I do not mean communication capabilities like going from morse code to...., but rather I guess in the sense of how easily it is for the media to get information. Facebook, where the video of the two young ladies origionated. If this capability was avaliable in the past, I am sure sailors then would have a similar issue of a lack in judgement brought to light by means of facebook/youtube/tweeter/blogs, etc. Of course, I do not accept the behavior but I do believe in a good learning tool. Also, maybe I see things differently because I know of different video's.
I know individuals who are over 90 years of age and have learn so much from them. The main thing I learn is adaption and not being biased. If you know something that I am missing please enlighten me. For I am open and willing to listen and hear the opinions of others.
I did not mean to have an argument but just stating a different view point
{and the crowd goes wild}
Take a bow, DB.
<p><span><span><span>maybe I am looking from a perspective different than ya'lls. I am open to new ideas and I believe I see what you two are saying. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>I do not mean communication capabilities like going from morse code to...., but rather I guess in the sense of how easily it is for the media to get information. The two young ladies video originated from Facebook. If this capability was available in the past, I am sure sailors (midshipman) of the past would have a similar issue of a lack in judgment brought to light by means of facebook/youtube/tweeter/blogs, etc. Of course, I do not accept the behavior but I do believe in a good learning tool. Also, maybe I see things differently because I know of different videos. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>I know individuals who are over 90 years of age and have learn so much from them. The main thing I learn is adaption and not being biased. If you know something that I am missing please enlighten me. For I am open and willing to listen and hear the opinions of others. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>I did not mean to have an argument but just stating a different view point</span></span></span></p>
Sorry, I should have started with England in "some countries east of" instead of
oh shut the hell up and reread what I said. the fact is...EVERYONE...myself included, have made comments we should not have made, including you. Are you SURE no one ever heard you? Voicing disgruntled sentiments is the unfortunate norm and while I never, NOT ONCE accused you of lining up your troops and cussing out the CO, I guarantee that at some point in your career, whether it was bitching to another JO, or otherwise, you made a comment that technically was a violation of the UCMJ.
and as my first XO once said, everyone violates the UCMJ every day. the question is to what degree? That's the issue here. It's not that two mids made snarky comments about the academy. In other news, water is wet. It's with the HUGELY poor judgment they showed in the manner in which they posted it.
as for my being cowardly and dishonorable, go fuck yourself.
as for my "losing credibility with you"...honey you lost yours with me years ago.
but hey...according to you I'm not even supposed to be where I am anyway. Guess I'll just get back into the kitchen where I belong and let those perfect, unerring folks like you go do your menfolk talkin'.
A posting in two (or maybe three) parts (it got too long):
<span>I keep trying to remind myself that I not old enough to be given the appellation of curmudgeon, but videos like this keep pushing me quicker and quicker to it.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>Phil R, as you have become the apologist for these two girls, as well as "counselling" them as you claim to know them personally, let me offer a few comments and suggestions.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>As you attempt to divert attention from the video by pointing to other videos on YouTube, while I have found several midshipman-produced videos to be stupid and dumbfounding, none of them have been anywhere near as crass and vulgar as this video. It would be good if the social media policy issued today (was the timing simply a coincidence?) clamped down on the videos coming out of the Brigade.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>With respect these girls who you apparent know very well, you indicated that they had an audience with the Supe today. So what did the Supe say?</span>
<span> </span>
<span>But it is very sad that they have been at USNA for 2 years and demonstrate no maturity, professionalism or military bearing. When I was at USNA, we appreciated content, context and venue. </span>
Part II:
Phil R -
<span>In your counselling of these girls, let me offer a few suggestions. They are offered in light of the fact that offense was given to the taxpayers, the alumni, the Brigade and the Academy itself, and that is where remedy must be given:</span>
<span> </span>
<span>1. If they truly have remorse for this and recognize the error of their way, then they should comb through the administrative conduct instruction and fry themselves for every possible violation they committed -- from the microwave/refrig in the room (if they are still prohibited) to urinating in a roommate's rack (nice blige there). (I wonder former or present roommates think, esp. if she was the victim of this bilge).</span>
<span> </span>
<span>2. If they truly appreciate the disgust which the alumni feel as they are nothing but a complete embarassment to themselves and our alma mater, then an open letter of apology written solely by them and published in <span>Shipmate</span> would be a nice step towards establishing any respect from the alumni. At this stage, they do not deserve to get or wear the ring, presuming they stay at USNA. </span>
<span> </span>
<span>3. As for making amends with the taxpayers, a video with a sincere apology would be good -- announce its posting, allow plenty of time for all to view, then take it down and then let the girls move on. Granted, the girls need to move on from the repercusions of their conduct, but not too quickly.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>4. They should also apologize, company by company, to the Brigade for bringing disrupte upon the Brigade. Fortunately and gladly, there have been posts by midn who clearly are as offended by this, yet they have had to apologize and defend the Brigade reminding us that most midn are not like this.</span>
<span> </span>
<span>Do the foreogoing will not be pleasant or fun them, but would it not be the right and honorable thing to do?</span>
Phil R -- One final thing, I agree with the Cdr that posting of the names in a forum such as this is not necessary or productive. Though I believe within the Brigade is appropriate and I agree with the midn who offered to fry them -- though if it has gone to the Supe level, he/she should let it be worked out at that level. Besides, he didn't offer an e-mail by which I could send a name.
In your talking to these girls, let them know they do no remain completely anonymous. Jackie XXXXXXXX (8-letter last name) was identiifed within 4 hours of the report of the video circulating; the othr midn, for now, does remain as Midn X.
message to garcia
They don't act like grown women, they act like girls. So...girls. You are splitting hairs.
Have a seat at the bar and buy me a beer. I can explain it to you...
Veritas,
Hopefully they will never be referred to as "Ma'am"...
They're secondclassmen -- plebes are doing it right now.
That is simply UNSAT. Enjoying the privilege of rank they have not earned and ranting like this after 2 years and not "Sailorizing". That is the crux of the issue then.
Reminds me of that one ass in the division that always said "FTN".. in fact he was actually referred to as "FTN". I asked him why he was so miserable, and pointed out the benefits of Military life and he just shook his head like I was from Mars. He left the ship and probably is in a ditch or selling meth..
"<span>Did the two in question mean those comments no" . . . so they lied.</span>
URR,
With all due respect...the USMC and USN have complete different roles for their senior enlisted. One other thing...the enlisted and officer ranks are becoming blurred...At least in the USN the senior enlisted are becoming more educated and have years of experience as compared to a junior officer. The days of being from a privileged family in order to become an officer is gone...just take a look at the "diversity" initiative. How is an enlisted Sailor going to respect an O-1 with the attitude of one of these girls? I'll answer that...they won't!
Navy Lesson #1: Loose Lips Sink Ships.
Once you let information, a paper, a recording, a picture or any kind of intel loose, you lose control over whose hands they fall into and the damage that can occur.
High school is over. USNA is there to prepare a select group of officer candidates for an increasingly unsafe and evil world. Get with the program.
<span>Veritas are you one of the few MIDS who dislike Jackie??? If you know Jackie you know the other individual and decided not to say her first name like you did hers. Whatever grudge you have you need to fix yourself before you wreck yourself and more importantly before you hinder the people around you. </span>
<span></span>
<span>By the way some of the information you wrote earlier is false. That is all and have a goodnight</span>
Whoa, don't bring honor into the equation! Me thinks that sailed away years ago.
Sal, congrats on a successful post. More than 329 comments and climbing.
More over, I believe you have become the proverbial pain in the rear quarter to the Navy leadership. Congrats and well done because I believe they are starting to hear you.
BZ
S/F,
REDEYE
What? So you speak for all Midshipmen and all "mids" are embarrassed? Why because it was seen by the wrong people?
Holy Crap we are screwed if this is the integrity and ethics coming out of the Academy.
Senior,
The enlisted Sailor WILL respect the uniform. It will be the CPO's job to "train" these two IF they become Ensigns and will have to deal with their drama and future poor headwork..
good luck.. one of em may show up and tell you she is your new boss!
Holy Crap! We have more cross fights then a WWF Wrestlemania!
MTH, you wolfpack members may get the choice spots on the porch, but sometimes it is safer to be the Badger UNDER the porch. Drop down when the fighting gets too intense, and I'll let you have an ice cold Coke, and some Little Debbie snack cakes.
Good thing there's a new Sheriff in town...Fowler wouldn't have the stomache to give a speech like that.
Dude - all you have to do is send me an email. Geezzzzzz ....
Is there anything else that I think, counselor? You know so much.
You ought to videotape that little tantrum and put it on Youtube.
My favorite part is the "everybody does it" moral relativism. Oh, and the part where I am a sexist for not believing that.
It IS that they made "snarky" (highly disrespectful and disparaging) comments about the Academy. Less than two years from a commissioning. And chose to film it. And post that film on a public website. Each of those acts was a deliberate decision, not a keystroke error or a misunderstanding. Those things are not something "everybody does".
And it says quite a bit about the two Midshipmen involved. But it says much, much more about their leadership. And the effectiveness of the USNA in instilling pride and espirit de corps into almost-Officers in the United States Navy.
<span>"How is an enlisted Sailor going to respect an O-1 with the attitude of one of these girls? I'll answer that...they won't!"</span>
Say that part louder. I don't think ActusRhesus can hear you!
Maybe he was on Barbara Boxer's staff.... :-P
Neither would Miller...
and I maintain, that at some point in your 28 years of wearing the uniform, whether at the coffee mess, the O'Club, or elsewhere you bitched about your ISIC, your Senator, or your President. Which is WRONG. If you tell me otherwise, you are lying. So my point remains. You bitched, they bitched. They were just foolish enough to post theirs, probably, like most of their age who forget how easy it is to find things online, not realizing how many people would see it. At no point did I say what they did what right. YOU however, seem to want to constantly justify your "hellraising". So, the moral relativism seems to be coming out of your keyboard, not mine.
and if you think typing three words is a tantrum, I will again refer you to your butthurt tirade of ad hominems.
As for your status, I respect the fact you served, but that is past tense. You can't one day be a contractor, and the next be a marine when the context suits you. You are no longer serving. you may be retired, but you are also now a federal civilian employee whether you like to admit it or not.
And no. I don't miss the line. It's right behind you. You are not as perfect as you think. Let me ask you this? Did you ever get drunk at a Marine Corps ball? If the answer is yes, then by MY standards, I think YOU are unfit based on YOUR judgment. But hey, lucky for you my morals don't govern, and lucky for those mids, meither do yours. They've been punished, and rightfully so. The Academy has taken action. Move on.
"And if the Brigade widely believes this to be true, it would seem to fall outside of the "asinine" category, independent of whether or not it actually happened."
Not sure if using the Brigade's rumor mill as a litmus test is wise, but I retract the "asinine" category.
They did not speak to cno or cjcs. My source is the two girls themselves.
end strength concerns (over end strength). most mids have to pay back eductation if leave after 2nd class year.
Your comment, however, was brilliant. A well thought and well presented argument. Bravo!!
Oy vey.
Accusation of wrongdoing followed by an assertion that any denial is lying. All without proof.
Well done, counselor. You must have gotten your law degree in the Soviet Union.
Served? Past tense? Huh.
Yes, I can be a contractor one minute and a Marine the next. There are very specific times when a reservist is subject to the UCMJ. But you know that, I am sure.
Federal civilian employee. Well then. Are we all Federal civilian employees? Because I will call my business partner and let him know. He will be as surprised as I am.
And thank you for your evaluation of my fitness to serve. I will be sure to forward it to the Commandant.
Some waste fraud and abuse to be clamped down on there...
Sorry, this comment thing is a little screwy...
I was replying to "Guest" who said..."<span>stupid comment.. people like you weaken a country in the name of political correctness. Probabl voted for Obama too, so you really should feel guilty"</span>
<span></span>
<span>was not responding to or mocking you in any way. i agree with much of what you are saying.</span>
<span></span>
<span>my sarcasm was directed at "Guest" . If he/she has an opinion, at leats spell it out in rational terms. </span>
My mistake. I thought you were retired. If you are a reservist, however, then your comments about senior military and civilian authorities are grossly inappropriate, as are your prior comments about women in the service. Whether the ucmj covers your conduct or not I can't say unless you let me cross reference your drill dates with your posts, but the fact you are demanding respect for your service in one breath while in the next claiming ucmj doesn't apply to you says a lot.
Ahhh. Proving my innocence.
So I am not necessarily in violation of the UCMJ, but now certainly in violation of what you believe appropriate.
Alles klar, frau Kommisar.
<span>Ahhh. The well-respected legal requirement of the accused having to prove innocence.
So I am not necessarily in violation of the UCMJ, but now certainly in violation of what you believe appropriate. Which boils down to your opinion. Disagreement with said being the sole determinant of fitness for service?
Alles klar, frau Kommisar</span>
My appologies. I thought you were retired. Glad you think there's an on off switch for when you are allowed to make inappropriate comments. However, I disagree. Two mids posting a dumb video on liberty; a reserve officer publicly attacking the commander in chief while in a non drilling status. Apples and apples, comrade.
<span>Ahhh. The well-respected legal premise of the accused having to prove innocence.
So I am not necessarily in violation of the UCMJ, but now certainly in violation of what you believe appropriate. Which boils down to your opinion. Agreement with said being the sole determinant of fitness for service?
Alles klar, frau Kommisar</span>
Ah the logical fallacy that I need a courtroom judge and members to have an opinion. My opinion is that you have, at some time in your life, violated the ucmj. You are innocent until proven guilty in a courtroom only, not the blogosphere.
I stand by my statement. Everyone has violated the ucmj.
I
I will let you have the last word, since I know how much it means to you. But food for thought: complaining about a senior officer (even if just to your wife); bitching about politicians, showing up five minutes late, surfing the net at work, rolling your eyes at the MA at the gate, and getting a blowjob are all ucmj violations. Consider.
Sal get s a free set of steak knives if this post crosses 500 comments! :-P
About ten years ago, a son with a 3.89 from the Top HS in CA, Calculous AB BC AP 4, Latin 4 AP, Chemistry AP, Good Baseball Player, and student leader, wanted to go to the Naval Academy.
He lost the appointment, as the runner-up (as in "you are in if this other kid get's hit by a beer truck over the summer") to a politically connected family with a student with a high C low B average that took the gap year up at Lake Arrowhead Academy Prep school to get up to minimum acceptance.
My son was so disgusted by the process that he withdrew his application to RTOC, and just went to University and went to work.
I was impressed by the process of the Academy at the time and it's rigors in recruiting at the time but non-plussed by the appointment process from the local U.S. Rep's and Senators offices.
Somehow things have gotten to the point that the recruiting process is a politics as usual affirmative action program in a world that doesn't use affirmative action in any other context.
If these are the future officers of the U.S. fleet, even 1/3 of them, the recruiting offices for the enlisted ranks are going to have an uphill battle.
In the end, these slots at all the Academies are Political Appointments. These two should be traced back to who sent them. Or do you know that already ?
HA!
That
IS
is
a
Stay classy, URR.
<span>In the end, these slots at all the Academies are Political Appointments. These two should be traced back to who sent them. Or do you know that already ?</span>
<span>About ten years ago, a son with a 3.89 from the Top HS in CA, Calculus AB BC AP 4, Latin 4 AP, Chemistry AP, Good Baseball Player, and student leader, wanted to go to the Naval Academy.
After the months long process, He lost the appointment, as the runner-up (as in "you are in if this other kid get's hit by a beer truck over the summer") to a politically connected family with a student with a high C low B average that took the gap year up at Lake Arrowhead Academy Prep school to get up to minimum acceptance.
My son was so disgusted by the political process and the outcome, that he withdrew his application to RTOC, and just went to University and went to work. He went to CAL to study Business & Engineering.
I was impressed by the process of the Academy at the time and it's rigors in recruiting at the time but non-plussed by the appointment process from the local U.S. Rep's and Senators offices.
Somehow things have gotten to the point that the recruiting process is a politics as usual affirmative action program in a world that doesn't use affirmative action in any other context.
If these are the future officers of the U.S. fleet, even 1/3 of them, the recruiting offices for the enlisted ranks are going to have an uphill battle.
(In the end, these slots at all the Academies are Political Appointments. These two should be traced back to who sent them. Or do you know that already ?)</span>
idea!
Make it a Moon Pie and an RC Cola, and he might just take you up on that offer...
Fair point - not a mob. Poor choice of words.
I think it is relevant as long as all alumni are queried, and not just those who have severe feelings relating to the Diversity aspect. Would also ask them for reaction to similar videos of unprofessional conduct (from all races/genders). Maybe even from Wardrooms. Or from Downtown Annapolis after a football game (mids and alumni). Of course, outrage is different for different folks.
Once again, I am not condoning the video; I am just wondering at the selective outrage at unprofessional behavior which is easily seen "out there."
I do not remember the calls for boots when USNA was in the news regarding the Spring Break Cruise fiasco. http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=1986 Perhaps the thought was 1) boys will be boys, or 2) not in uniform (except Navy speedo), or 3) issue did not happen at USNA, or 4) does not fit anti-Diversity theme (qualifier: I am not a huge Diversity policy fan, at all). It sure did get a lot of press, and was a stain on USNA for awhile.
Consistency in judgment is what I seek. I do not remember a 400 comment post on that one. If it is the institution and honor we seek to protect, what about other offenses? Go after them with equal vigor.
I thought a key aspect of this is the mid's lack of judgment. How are we doing in our collective judging?
Awaiting arrows now..
similar story here, but I wanted to be a Naval Officer more than I wanted to be a USNA grad so I went NROTC.
URR, breaking one comment into four doesn't count!
Well, that was lively.
Let us be kindly and optimistic. Let us assume the young ladies, rescued from their fall from grace by the intervention of their guardian angels, resolve to avoid publicity and published images of themselves for all time.
Let us assume they both go naval air, where foolishness is forgiven if you can fly reel gud and grovel well in a military manner.
I predict that their callsigns will be "Mansfield" and "Monroe'' (as famous movie stars) or "Potty" and "Pooh" (hopefully, not). Now wise young ladies, they will never explain and never complain (H/t Henry Ford II). Learn, struggle, faceplant, recover and grow. What Gramps did you will neva know.
Next teapot, oh meteor-ologist, if you please.
A terrific movie, and an even better book.
You can find the directions right next to the Mail Buoy. And on your way back please bring me 25 ft of flight line.
YOU ARE WRONG SIR. THIS VIDEO WAS NOT CONSIDERED FUNNY BY ANY MEMBER OF THE BRIGADE, EXCEPT FOR THIS DIRTY GROUP OF MIDSHIPMEN GIRLS (WHO NEED TO FIND A NEW COLLEGE). ALL IT WAS, WAS A SAD EMBARRASSMENT FOR AN INSTITUTION THAT IS ALREADY HURTING FROM A DECREASE IN QUALITY DUE TO THE FULFILLMENT OF A CERTAIN QUOTA
indeed!
It's the Marine in him.. he had to overcome and adapt.
I think he would have gone NROTC at CAL eventually, but he kept thinking that his slot to either NAVAL AIR, Navy Divers, or SPEC Forces would have gotten cut off at the pass by "politics as usual", and he would spend 4-6 years standing watch on the bridge of a destroyer in squall at night.
He had a lot of friends that completed NROTC (and one of his younger Brothers Pals even played Linebacker at ARMY) and all served with distinction. It was two local retired enlisted that encouraged him to do NROTC and possibly the Academy, (Retired SEAL and Retired USMC Force Recon that own /operate the Pittsburgh Dive Shop) .
Sad really, that we get the elected US reps. that we do 1/2 the time and their disfunctional offices.
Be sure to encourage everyone you know to Vote in November.
LCDR,
Curious as to how you know what every mid thinks.
1) Are you a Midshipmen LCDR?
2) Did you ask each and every midshipman?
Also:
Why are you screaming?
Who are you responding to?
Or the Marine in him can only think/speak in single syllables.
Marines don't play fair. That is why they win.
Kids ... kids .... kids ..... I love both of you (but not that way) - so you'se two make nice to each other. Good googly moogly - you fight like an old married couple. I can almost see the two of you about 3" from each others face arguing .... but now perhaps we are at that ackward silence part where you stare each other down for about 10 seconds and then kiss in a wildly passionate embrace that causes half the front porch to roll their eyes and the other half to go, "Awwwwwww."
There .... I'll leave you with that visual.
That should learn 'ya.
OUCH my eyes.. Suckas I am getting a beer.. Byron tell me when I can come back.
lmao
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