This was a PR nightmare that we created. We created it because we let her do what she wanted to do. As usual when exceptional people are treated in an exceptional manner - more often than not both the individual and the institution suffer.
Don't be mad at CAPT Graf - have a sit down with those who owned paper on her for the last decade and have them look you in the eye and tell you they had no idea. Talk to her XOs and Dept. Heads and ask them why they didn't speak up. Be open to the answers you will hear - my email box is full of them ..... but most won't go on the record.
Why? See top cover comment above. That's OK though - all you really need to know is in the IG report.
From Time,
"Take your goddamn attitude and shove it up your f------ ass and leave it there," she allegedly told an officer during a stressful maneuver aboard the 567-foot, 10,000-ton vessel.This next paragraph is funny - as it simply is not a valid statement for anyone that reaches Major Command at Sea - especially if you are the first female to command a cruiser.
Junior officers seeking her guidance were rebuffed. "This is one of the reasons I hate you," she allegedly told one seeking her help. When another officer visited her quarters to discuss an earlier heated discussion, her response was terse: "Get the f--- out of my stateroom." She allegedly told a male officer: "The only words I want to hear our of your mouth are 'Yes ma'am,' or 'You're correct ma'am.'" She put a "well-respected Master Chief" in "time out" — standing in the ship's key control room doing nothing — "in front of other watch standers of all ranks."
...
"Don't come to me with your problems," she said Graf responded. "You're a f------ Department Head." The officer also said that Graf once told her: "I can't express how mad you make me without getting violent."
A second female officer told the IG that Graf "is a terrible role model for women in the Navy," alleging that Graf had once told her and a fellow officer on the bridge: "You two are f------ unbelievable. I would fire you if I could but I can't."
...
Paul Coco, a 2002 Naval Academy graduate, served as a the gunnery officer under Graf aboard the destroyer U.S.S. Winston S. Churchill from 2002 to 2004. "She would throw coffee cups at officers —ceramic not foam," he recalls, "spit in one officer's face, throw binders and paperwork at people, slam doors." The hostile work environment led to a gallows humor among the crew. "We all would joke that after Bush liberated Iraq, he would next liberate Churchill," he says. That day finally came in January 2004, when Cmdr. Todd Leavitt arrived to replace Graf. "As soon as Cmdr. Leavitt said 'I relieve you' to Cmdr. Graf, the whole ship, at attention, roared in cheers."
"I'm more upset that the Navy let this go on so long," says Kirk Benson, who retired from the Navy as a commander three years ago after a 20-year career. Many complaints up the chain fell on "deaf ears," he says. "When I think of Holly Graf, even 12 years later, I shake," he says of serving under her when she was second-in-command on the destroyer U.S.S. Curtis Wilbur in 1997-98. "She was so intimidating even to me, a 6-foot-4 guy."
Even though Graf comes from a Navy family — her sister and brother-in-law are both admirals, and her father was a captain — there appears to have been no "godfather" shielding her and greasing the skids for her promotion, Navy officers say. Prior to the IG probe's release, the Navy had tapped Graf for a top job at the Pentagon following her Cowpens command. Now she's being shuffled off to a Navy weapons lab outside the capital. "Her career," one admiral says, "is over."We all lose our temper. We all have our moments. I've heard worse on a ship. Not everyone has to Command though.
I haven't blogg'd too much on this as others have - but now that the IG is out, I thought one post should be enough. I don't want to ping on CAPT Graf too much - if anyone felt the need for her to be punished - she is more than being punished now. I just hope she finds peace and somewhere out there during her career she found some friends of some kind. People think Command is lonely? Wait until you lose your power and influence - then your fair weather friends depart post haste.
Don't beat up on her too much - she's only human and karma found her. However, if she isn't humbled by this - then stand clear of her. Looks like she has a significant frag pattern.
I'm sure the no top cover paragraph is technically correct. To use the word "godmother" would be accurate and make the statement false.
ReplyDeleteSemantics, lads and lassies, semantics.
You know, as much as she is revolting in the desecriptions, the piss and vinegar attitude is something sorely missing from most people in charge these days.
ReplyDeleteShe was missing a good Warrant Officer.. Where the hell was the spine of those officers below her? It is called a F(@(@9 CHAIN OF COMMAND... Sometimes you got to be prepared to dance.. or just whine like a bitch.. Her XO failed her miserably for not being an XO.
ReplyDeleteGood source says she was still headed to the Pentagon until that scheme was exposed to the light of day.
ReplyDeleteGood to see she is no longer. Her career should be over.
And I disagree, Phib. I can indeed come down on CAPT Graf. She violated the special trust and confidence given as a Naval Officer, and did so repeatedly. And knowingly. Shame on her. More than she has, already.
Your point about her seniors and their gutlessness and dereliction is spot on, however.
Don't think for a second that the predominant reason for such spinelessness and dereliction was not Miss Graf's gender.
Can you imagine the way they talked about her in the goat locker?
ReplyDeleteMatthew, there is piss and vinegar, and flat out abuse. This woman was completely unhinged.
ReplyDeleteMatthew, There is a difference between the attitude you speak of and being a tyrant, which this officer most definitely was. I worked for several aggressive and decisive COs during my time in the Navy and, with one exception, none of them struck, spit on, threatened to kill, or publicly berated their officers to the degree we read about here. The one CO who was the exception used to lose his temper, scream, and throw things but he had enough self-control not to lay his hands on anyone. Although I learned a couple of things from him as his XO, he wasn't a very good CO and that fact was well known around the squadron.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the CDR, a good deal of the blame rests on the shoulders of this officer's reporting seniors. One of the objectives of CDR Command is to screen out those who can't handle the pressure or make appropriate decisions. Granted, people like CAPT Graf often present a different face to their superiors but any DESRON Commander with an attentive CSO and a competent staff should have heard the stories of the "crazy CO" commanding WSC. It's not easy to derail someone who is "preordained for greatness" but it can be done.
and we need such an archaic attitude in the highly skilled and all-volunteer force...why, exactly?
ReplyDeleteYou might need to get people's attention a couple-three times in a command tour by raising your voice...but any more than that, and I'll guarentee you that the one raising his/her voice IS the problem.
If I'd been that master chief, I'd have packed my seabags and I'd have been off that ship the next time it made port or got near a carrier.
ReplyDeleteMTH, Let me tell you from bitter experience sometimes the best an XO can do is to run interference between an abusive CO and his wardroom/crew, minimize the damage, and ensure everyone gets their work done. The guy I worked for wasn't as over the top as CAPT Graf but the working environment was oppressive none the less. Fortunately I only worked for him for 6 months.
ReplyDeleteBTW, that guy retired as a CDR.
Mark Thompson is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who has written to both sides of the Navy experiment. Captain Kathleen McGrath fared far better than Captain Graf. We would do well to remember one of the 'good ones' as we see where Captain Graf has ended up.
ReplyDeletehttp://navycaptain-therealnavy.blogspot.com/2010/03/in-case-you-may-have-forgotten-captain.html
URR, While CAPT Graf's gender certainly played a part in her rise through the ranks it doesn't seem to me to be the only factor involved. Those of us who have served for any length of time have seen people who have progressed beyond their level of competence due to family or professional connections. Once on that track they're hard to derail. I had a contemporary who rose to command a Japan-based DDG mostly because of his staff work and a retired 4-star father. Like CAPT Graf, he was a tyrant in command. He was only discovered and relieved because the ship fired a round in a prohibited area off the Japanese coast and all the craziness aboard the ship came out in the investigation.
ReplyDeleteI've known officers who could send people scurrying with a look.
ReplyDeleteLots of stories re: this on other blogs.
ReplyDeleteWe've all worked for tyrants. When the wardroom is cowed, and/or the crew is forced to do a great job *in spite of* a CO, it is bad, bad, bad...Or when the XO is forced into a position as a sh*t filter...ugh.
One of my fav stories: The Tyrant had just received orders to my DDG. The CICWO was prior enlisted & would always get "the scoop" on anyone pretty quickly.
Tyrant had commanded an FF previously. CICWO finds a former member of that crew, chats him up over a game of pool.
CICWO: "Would you serve under CDR XXXXX again?"
Former FF guy: "If I was ordered to...".
Tyrant made CAPT, thankfully never further.
C-dore,
ReplyDeleteI didn't say it was the only factor, but it was a factor, and at various times, a big factor. Her deeds WERE known when she was given her second sea command.
The question has to be asked: Would a male with a comparable record of command issues have had a career progression like that? I think not.
Yes, anyone who has served any length has seen people promoted past their competence. The reason why that happens in each case has to be examined honestly and completely.
Keeping tyrants around is expensive.
ReplyDeleteHow many JOs and technical rate Enlisted, with hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in them due to their specialized training, decided to leave the Navy because of a person like this?
Graf said a "small group of disgruntled officers in the Cowpens wardroom were spreading rumors throughout the crew and convincing others that the command climate and [her] demeanor were far worse than they actually were."
ReplyDeleteI think I saw this in a movie once...can't quite remember the title. Swap "disloyal" for "disgrunted", add a couple of quarts of strawberries, and start a hunt for a missing key.
A Navy weapons lab outside DC? Oh good, now she's probably my program office's problem. At best, she'll be withdrawn and create a leadership vacuum at the top. At worse, she'll be even more out of control and damage the programs that the surface Fleet depends upon. I wish they could've just cashiered her instead of letting her stick around to do even more harm.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'll definitely come down on her - she only got away with it as long as she did because she's a woman and had the diversity goons behind her.
GBS,
ReplyDeleteBingo. Except she didn't have a Kiefer to deal with.
Wow. CICWO gets big points for THAT!
ReplyDeleteURR, re: your second paragraph, I don't know about today but, based on my experience I'd say yes. If their misdeeds aren't documented and if they have influential "sponsors" lots of things get overlooked. It's rationalized with the phrase "They'll mature in command." These folks were more common at the DESRON and CG command level but occasionally they made Flag. The names "Hammerin' Hank" Mustin and "Ace" Lyons come to mind most readily.
ReplyDeleteGBS, Actually the name "Arnheiter" and the real life case of USS VANCE comes to mind more readily. He used the same excuse for his relief. Fortunately they got him as a LCDR although many of his "sponsors" rallied to his defense.
ReplyDeleteMy question is this. What if I as a OS1 had treated my fellow sailors in such a manner? Needless to say a few birdies would have been flying off my uniform. So why is Captain Graf being allowed to keep her rank and most likely retirement beny's of a O-6? Just a bit of a double standard if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteC-dore,
ReplyDeleteNot to be disagreeable (that's Byron's job) but the comments at USNI blog and elsewhere make frequent mention of Graf being the "anointed one". Much like a female LT who put her F-14 in the drink about 15 years ago. "She WILL graduate" was what her flight instructors were told. She was to be the first female fighter pilot, whether qualified or not. She and her back seater paid for that, as did the US Taxpayers to the tune of a $35 million F-14.
*shrug*
ReplyDeleteI've had a lot of terrible leaders. At this point, I would probably welcome someone who just yelled and berated a lot rather than surrepticiously destroying my paper, but being pleasant about it.
I rarely disagree with anyone on this blog. We all tend to "drink the same beer". And I think you're wrong about females (or gays) in the serve, IN PRINCIPLE. Unfortunately in this age of Diversity Directorates, any "minority" quickly becomes protected and enshrined, and therein the problem lies. I think you're wrong to beat up on gays and woman as a group and instead should be going straight to the source of the problem.
ReplyDeleteMore to the point, the four star leadership refuses to man up so they can maintain their precious programs and whatnot. One can only wonder where the next Billy Mitchell is...
Since I'm a civilian, I don't have a dog in the hunt. At a certain level, it's your Navy (and Marine Corps). I will note, however, that there is much breast beating going on and damned little real action to address real issues.
And I have no intent to beat up any group except that which is in the "diversity industry" which promotes and virtually guarantees what you call the problem of <span>any "minority" quickly becoming protected and enshrined"</span>
ReplyDeleteNo place for it. And Holly Graf is a product of it. A lot of other things, as well, but those people and the seniors cowed by them guaranteed it.
Interesting the minor explosions wrt maintaining diversity over the last 6 months, Gen Casey's comments wrt the damage to diversity from the FT Riley shootings, the USNA honor guard at the Red SOx game, The MIDN who was retained after 3 honor offences and a drug bust and now CAPT Graf. You can walk the dog further back to Kara Hultgreen. When is enough enough. Is pushing diversity rather than professional competence really worht all of this?
ReplyDeleteC-dore 14,
ReplyDeleteYou brought up some funny memories with reference to Hank Mustin. A couple decades ago I was a young second class on his staff. Never actually met him. However, can remember standing watch in flag plot during some training exercise when he came in from working out and he started barking to get the BG commander on the line. A couple minutes later he is cussing out a RADM over the phones in front of the rest of us. At that point I had never seen anyone above a JG chewed out and here he is tearing up a Rear Admiral like he's a seaman deuce. As soon as I could I transferred from C2F to a cruiser. Now, there we had an XO that could peel paint when he was chewing you out. He enlisted in the early 50's made it up to senior chief then went LDO and somehow switched to URL and made it to CDR.
Byron,
ReplyDeleteThe Diversity Directorates have pull because no one wants to be accused of being racist, sexist or homophobic, which are the standard reactions from diversity supporters to anyone who raises any objection (no matter how rational) to any of the current diversity policies. If there is only one correct, morally perfect view and those who disagree with it are evil or stupid, then the "correct" view and those who support it will run wild, which is exactly what is happening. Once everyone else figures out the rules, no one is going to stick their neck out by speaking against individuals in protected classes. And, so you get a systemic and structural problem.
The situation will not change until there is recognition that there is merit to both sides of the argument, and that policy (of any sort - not just military personnel policies) must be argued for and based on what is most effective, even if the final policy produces a non-diverse (demographics not proportional to the general population) fleet.
Correction: MIDN only convicted of 1 honor offense. He was acquitted of one. And he was convicted, allowed a retrial on a technicality, and acquitted of the third. Also, the honor guard incident happened at Yankees/Phillies WS Game 2.
ReplyDeleteA minor issue is that the Churchill always has a RN exchange officer. I bet the one which served under this particular skipper had some tales to tell when he returned home.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the correction, the point is still the same
ReplyDelete"The question has to be asked: Would a male with a comparable record of command issues have had a career progression like that? I think not. "
ReplyDeleteYes, there was a CDR command DDG CO in Japan relieved a decade ago for crossing in front of not one but two CV's...there was a lot in his record, including physically striking his helmsman on the bridge. While unusual, I heard similiar tales now and again during my career. Obviously, it was easier for Navy take action and not have it hit the national news - no 'net back then.
This stuff happens too often...and, no, I don't have specific figures. They are a tiny fraction of the officers in command, but they're there once in a blue moon.
IMO, it's not a male/female thing, it is USUALLY a "can't perform competantly under pressure" kind of thing. (However, for an opposing view, google "Miles Rutherford Browning" for a character study of similiar behaviour during WWII).
I don't want plain "Joes and Janes" in command; we need brilliant and occasionallly mercurial people willing to risk it all in battle, but neither do I think we want such personalities damaging the Force.
IMO, the surface community leadership, in particular, needs to take a very hard and uncompromising look at its method for identifying such officers so that they can be weeded out before they can do too much damage. Perhaps a "perisher" type course while in the pipeline?
I don't believe this can be mandated, but I do think our leadership can do better; our enlisted force, to name just one element, deserves better from us.
what has happened to the navy, I think the past five issues of navy times have had articles about co's being relieved for cause
ReplyDeleteThat DD might have been the Hewitt in 96 as she cut off the Vinson and Enterprise.......I was in the Enterprise Battle Group and thankfully off watch. From friends most of the reactions were WTF. It happened so quick no one could stop or do anything when she cut across both carriers bow's at a very, very close distance.
ReplyDeleteOld Salt,
ReplyDeleteSuggest you read comments on blogs at the time of Graf's relief. Many, many comments regarding her protection and anointment for high rank. Many of these remarks came from fellow officers and crewmen who witnessed firsthand.
Knowing how the US Navy (and DoD as a whole) has proceeded with women/minority issues, allowing advocates and activists to create a "more equal than others" class for each, I have no reason whatsoever to doubt the assertions that CAPT Graf was singled out for guided success for being a female and an Academy grad, because then she would be a showpiece for how enlightened and progressive the Navy was.
The benefit of the doubt for such instances is LONG gone, in a trail of intentionally discriminatory policies and practices, special interest groups (DACOWITS), and measures favoring one race or gender over another.
I spent one perfectly miserable year on the USS Ingersoll with Arnheiter between his removal from the Worden [?] and his transfer to the Vance. Reading this IG report and these comments has proven to be a rather tragic walk down memory lane.
ReplyDeletePete
I have read The Arnheiter Affair, a very strange tale.
ReplyDeleteI have always suspected that Hultgren was promoted far beyond her abilities, but, within the last year, over at Lex's place, someone said something about that, and Lex went to bat for Hultgren, and his word carries a lot of wieght with me. I still suspect that the common belief is the correct one, but I am much more willing to keep an open mind on her behalf with Lex supporting her.
ReplyDeleteI've seen CDR McGrath's ghost. Twice.
ReplyDelete<span>Scott,
ReplyDeleteI was the one over on Lex's site who related the story of LT Hultgreen. I was at WTI in Yuma with two of LT Hultgreen's flight instructors the day she went in. It was they who related those occurrences to me. One of the guys was a TBS classmate and friend of mine, and he told me that she had received a number of no-gos, any one of which would have washed a male student-pilot. When they questioned what she was still doing there, the response was that she was to graduate. Both were saddened but neither surprised by her accident.
For what it's worth.</span>
Excellent comments, Mike.
ReplyDeleteFrom CDR McGrath's XO: "She's not in command because she's a woman," says her second-in-command, Lieutenant Commander Joseph Chiaravallotti. "She's in command because she's better than everyone else who's not in command."
Could that be said of CAPT Graf?
Shawn,
ReplyDeletedidn't see where you were referencing the DD that cut across Vinson and Big E bows. I reviewed the other comments to find what you were rerferencing.
Also - to add to this - did anyone see the article on Cmdr Graf about racing the Cowpens and McCain on the New York Post web site? She was senior on site, but could she really order a captain of another ship to race her?
http://militarycorruption.com/ It's ALL here.
ReplyDeletefinlandia:
ReplyDeleteI don't think she's going your way -- 'Phib knows of what I speak...
w/r, SJS
A rather expensive lesson for the Fleet to learn. As I said above, I still suspect that the tale as told by you is probably the right one, but I have to keep at least a partially open mind on the subject. There have been far too many cases of rules being changed, so women can succeed, in what really is a male job. As for what your opinion is worth with me, I value you it greatly, you seem to know of what you speak. In this case, since your information comes directly from those who were the ones who tried to train her, without success, I must give your report a great deal of wieght, as well.
ReplyDeletelooks like mccain is crossing cowpens bow, as an OS I would have been locking log books in a safe and changing the combination, but I do have to say it seems like everyone is pig piling now...just to play devils advocate though it does not appear any closer then folks would get doing leap frogs...I guess the most trouble some part is the fact that cowpens bow is pointed at the mccain...poor judgement all the way around...as for drag races, they are nothing new, every one used to do it to some degree at the end of the day during reftra in gitmo but I don't remember getting that close except for RAS or as I said above leap frogs
ReplyDeleteOrder? No, usually it is done by signal light and then they line up and go. Ships drag all the time. This was their excuse to walk the dog back from just doing their Art 15 w/ no real punishment. Now they needed another excuse to move her out of her preordained follow on job. That's just my guess.
ReplyDeleteLt. B:
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with two ships lining up and going. That's just healthy competition. However, when there's concern of a collission, that's incredible.
Why would either Captain race parallel to each other so there's no risk. If McCain crossed Cowpens bow, why? If the arogan Capt. Graf got pissed she was losing and wanted to put the fear of god in the other ship, that's enough for me.
Line up and go, but changing course during the race? Not, not good.
Thanks for the info.
I meant 'why wouldn't each captain race parallet to each other'
ReplyDeletenot 'why would'
love those typo's
Spit in another officer's face?? One, that is an assault. Two, that ay be one of the most disrespectful acts one can do to another. Three, at that point my career would not have mattered and I may have hit her for that.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, looks like bad seamanship, not excusing it. Just they released the drag racing as if it was horrible and blah blah blah. This was a way to go back and do that which they hosed up to begin with, IMHO. She had issues as a CO, clearly.
ReplyDeleteThat guest was me.
ReplyDeleteThat'll get you thrown out of an NFL game and the ref might even let you punch the guy back w/ only a 15 yd penalty. :) Bet the Navy wouldn't let you get away w/ that.
ReplyDeleteURR - this article also mentions her father was a Captain, and her sister and brother-in-law are FOs. I suspect the "woman thing" isn't the only thing going on here.
ReplyDeleteRacing is no big deal...............any ship worth it's salt would do one with another ship. The key is many, many other things in the Captains behavior patterns.
ReplyDeleteAndrew,
ReplyDeleteNo it isn't. And I believe I said so as well. But it is certainly a factor, and at times likely a BIG one, even alluded to by fellow female officers in the TIME article.
But those would require other people to testify and they may not want to do that for a myriad of reasons. Something like the racing is easier to document and have witnesses for and an official record. No rumors required.
ReplyDeleteI served with a tyrant of a CO. He took a top performing squadron and practically destroyed it during his tenure. His first XO stood up to him after a particularly bad incident and lost his chance at command as result of doing the right thing. The tyrant's command tour was then extended for six months before the new XO fleeted up to command.
ReplyDeleteLots of officers careers were stunted and many enlisted men abandoned thoughts of a career because of him. He went on to command a CV before higher command realized how bad he was. There was at least one attempt on his life by a junior officer. Rumor has it that the investigation turned up his Queegish behavior.
Everyone in his aviation community knew about him, the flag staff on his CV had to know. But, he was repeatedly given opportunities to turn units into little gulags. Looks like that's one thing that hasn't changed in the last 25 years.
I feel your pain...had the best of both worlds, a guy who would yell one day, and be all smiles the next...all the while destroying paper on people he didn't like.
ReplyDeleteI can just hope karma catched up with him, as it apparently has done with CAPT Graf.
<span>I feel your pain...had the best of both worlds, a guy who would yell one day, and be all smiles the next...all the while destroying paper on people he didn't like.
ReplyDeleteI can just hope karma caught up with him, as it apparently has done with CAPT Graf.</span>
Byron,
ReplyDelete<span>I was pulling your leg. But not in a DADT way....</span> ;)
There were still a couple of VANCE officers kicking around in the fleet when I was a LT/LCDR. One, the former Weapons Officer, maintained a fairly large file marked "Arnheiter" to fend off various accusations and legal requests that came down over the years. In the '70s Neil Sheehan wrote an excellent book, <span>The Arnheiter Affair</span>, that detailed the situation. It went out of print mostly due to Arnheiter's repeated threats to sue for libel.
ReplyDeleteRe the "spitting" incident, back in the day, my dad had a descriptive word for women of her ilk and that was, "COMMON".
ReplyDeleteURR, I don't think that we really disagree here. However, my point is that the real problem stems from when an individual is advanced beyond their capabilities due to great staff work, influential sponsors, and the political agendas of their superiors. Over my career I've seen several male officers who were anointed as "special" (sometimes as early as LT) and whose careers were carefully managed. My shore sub-specialty community (Political/Military Affairs) was loaded with them and often their sea tours were limited to get them back to DC as quickly as possible. Their sponsors don't observe them at sea and anyway these folks move through those assignments so quickly that accountability for bad leadership never really falls on their shoulders. In many cases this resulted in a lack of basic leadership and seamanship skills that often (but not always) caught up with them in command. What I notice about CAPT Graf from a variety of sources is someone who was profoundly uncomfortable about being at sea and in command and who tries to cover up that insecurity by being a profane tyrant.
ReplyDeleteCAPT Graf's gender certainly did play a part into her career advancement but to attribute her rise primarily to that overlooks a more important issue.
ShawnP, It was HEWITT. Interestingly this incident took place around the same time that LETYE GULF collided with TR and GONZALEZ went aground off St. Martin.
ReplyDeleteCommodore,
ReplyDeleteConcur we are in "loud and violent agreement", as my old boss used to say.
AR, You're right about that. The worst CO I ever worked for never raised his voice. Your "first indication of trouble" was when you got your FITREP. Interestingly he didn't like confrontations so he stopped giving guys their FITREPs until they transferred. Because the reports weren't signed they never got submitted and eventually BUPERS sent an O-6 out to Yokosuka with an ultimatum.
ReplyDeleteLarge Bill, VADM Mustin used to come up to SWOS for graduations, etc., while I was an instructor there. He'd always lecture the Department Head Classes and ask for questions afterwards. Invariably his answers would involve stuff like "That was the dumbest thing I've ever heard" and questioning the lineage of the questioner. Being smart guys, the LTs usually stopped asking things after the second guy got beaten up. Afterwards he'd go into the CO's office to yell at him (a Flag selectee) about the fact that the students weren't asking him anything. Eventually they "salted" the audience with instructors to ask questions and take the hits to keep him happy. Fortunately I was senior enough not to have to participate.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. I intended my "correction" to only reinforce your point. He was guilty of three honor offenses but only convicted of 1.5 of them.
ReplyDeleteDB, Agree that racing is no big deal, although the position of the two ships in the photo is a big deal. What happened, as is often the case, a relatively unimportant incident is reported and investigated. During the investigation more serious "command climate" issues surface as folks are interviewed. That's what happened with the DDG CO that I mentioned below. All it took was for someone to describe the CO's actions during the event (you know, something like "Well sir, the CO was screamin' and swearin' at the helmsman like she usually does...") to get the ball rolling.
ReplyDeleteLike the Marine Commandant said the other day, the primary consideration should be whether or not these decisions enhance combat effectiveness. (Ok, that's paraphrasing it a bit.) The decisions to include women on ships or open homosexuals in the military were strictly political decisions made by politicians who do not serve in the military. Is the military made stronger by reason of these policies? If so, how? I'd really like to see any real evidence of it rather than just a regurgitation of multiculturalist cant. Allowing politicians to feel better about themselves and appease their favorite pressure groups doesn't count.
ReplyDeleteBad leadership comes in all shapes, sizes and genders. I'm not saying Graff was a great leader...in fact I have some inside gauge on the situation that I can't get into, but confirms I would NEVER want to work for her...but I think there's a lot of boogeyman syndrome going on here. OK, so she yells. Sounds like she was a bitch to pretty much everyone. I've had the opposite...people who were oh so nice and pleasant and PC, but destroyed the cohesion of the wardroom by playing divisive favoritism games. Given the choice between the two, I'll take the yelling.
ReplyDeleteagreed. I have never raised my voice to any of my chiefs or blue shirts, and miraculously everything I task out gets done on time without attitude.
ReplyDeleteHave I used salty language? Oh yeah.
but yelling just seems weak IMO
Tom, My experience with this kind of stuff is that it comes in cycles, although I couldn't give you the reason for it. Could be a "zero defect" mentality on the part of the leadership, could be poor guidance to a group of community selection boards about what was necessary to be picked for command. During my first command period we had a number of O-5 COs relieved for things ranging from being a tyrant in command to running aground while steaming into GITMO at 20+ knots. The common thread was poor judgement. Maybe that's the case today.
ReplyDeleteRunning aground at 20+ knots? Hokey smoke, Bullwinkle. What was the damage to the vessel? And was anybody killed?
ReplyDeleteOne last comment about CAPT Graf. Without access to her FITREPs or comments from someone who sat on her O-5 or O-6 command selection boards we're all just guessing about the factors that led to her being placed in command of WSC or COWPENS. Could be influential "patrons", could be pressure from the "diversity community", could be that her previous reporting seniors failed to document her outrageous behavior either because they were unaware of it or lacked the backbone to do so. However, unless things have dramatically changed since I was a reporting senior and sat on community boards, things like FITREPs were between the individual and the reporting senior and nobody even directed me how to rank my wardroom or CPO Mess. Likewise, the boards I sat on were anonymous and anyone (including the various minority members) who tried to push an individual too hard almost guaranteed a couple of extra "No" votes, essentially ending that person's chances for another year.
ReplyDeleteWhen something like this happens I usually try to look at the individual's command biography to see what their background was. Unfortunately hers had been pulled down immediately after her relief (and I'm not as smart as sid to figure out how to search for it).
C-14,
ReplyDeleteThere are exceptions to the rule though. I have no idea what happened in this case - but I have two first hand experiences with exceptional "irregularities" WRT board selection processes.
There a then 1/2 Star was known to shop specific "select lists" to the O5 Command board to those community O6s who were lined up to be on the board. The "Old Bull" Captains knew this and actually talked about doing something about it - but never did. Reason - they decided that there was no way they could do anything about it due to the well known top-cover he had. And yes - he influenced the board.
I also saw a Commodore direct an O5 CO to change one of his officer's FITREPS because that LCDR did not want to take the set of orders that Commodore wanted him to - for reasons of a sick child.
On a lower scale away from objectivity, I have also seen good, solid officers treated different at order time because "She could be one of our first female COs." A solid officer - but whose major considered feature happened to be what side her civilian shirt's buttons were on.
Was this the case here? I don't know. Do these things happen? Yes they do. Human institutions are imperfect.
HEWITT didn't just cut across their bows, she did it TWICE during that evolution.
ReplyDeleteThat must have caused some impressive hull damage, took the sonar dome right off, I should think. I hope no one was killed. Can you say what ship?
ReplyDeleteIf it was the DEWERT, I don't believe anyone was killed and I heard (from a well informed Plank Owner E-9), it was a case of the piloting team using the wrong landmarks for the ones on the chart. Being a CICO/Piloting officer for my first assignment and a NAV while in GTMO years later....WTF: Where was the radar team?
ReplyDeleteLots of damage forward, including major damage to the SQS-56 dome. repaired (at a cost), returned to service.
DEWERT is the correct answer. Significant hull damage but no serious casualties. The grounding occurred the morning I started the TYCOM portion of the PCO pipeline so we heard all of the details over the next two weeks. xformed is correct about the navigation deficiencies, which were complicated by excessive speed. The CO (the son of a retired Flag and son-in-law of a former CNO) had recently assumed command. He told the investigating officer that he was at 20 knots because he believed that "...destroyers should be handled 'smartly'..." By the end of our time at CNSL one of my PCO classmates had received an ORDMOD sending him to command DEWERT.
ReplyDeleteCDR S, I agree that there are exceptions and don't deny that people try to influence boards but that hasn't been my experience. I know of the case of one O-6 who didn't make Flag precisely because of a "patron" trying to influence the board to select him. Regarding influence wrt orders, think I made that point earlier. "Special people" of both genders tend to have selective detailing and are often sent to a ship with a good reputation, strong XO, specific deployment cycle, etc. I can't argue about the assignment of women COs in the CRUDES community as none had reached that level of experience by the time I retired.
ReplyDeleteOn the issue of the Commodore directing a CO how to rank a subordinate, well that gets back to the issue of "integrity" that we often talk about here. A CO with any backbone would have told him that this direction was inappropriate and that the FITREP was between him and the individual. Could the CO have paid a price? Certainly, but sometimes doing the right thing has consequences. If he "knuckled under" to the Commodore, that tells me more about the O-5 than the O-6. Maybe I was lucky but no Commodore or Flag Officer (including one incredible jerk) I worked for ever involved themselves in my evaluation of subordinates beyond commenting about guys they thought were doing a good job.
during the glory days rickover was on sea trials on one of the nuke subs (with a press and congressional contingent) and when submerged at flank speed ordered a crash back. really big stink over it with the standard "endangered the crew , ship and distinguished guests."
ReplyDeleteevery body does crash backs, it tests the brakes.
C
BTW, DEWERT had also gone aground in a South American river (I forget which country) a few months earlier during her UNITAS deployment. Unfortunately for the former CO, the investigation hit the TYCOM's desk, or more precisely, his COS' (Wes Jordan) desk while all the flailing about the GITMO incident was going on. Although investigation exonerated the previous CO due to poor charts and errors by the pilot, he was recalled for a subsequent inquiry. Eventually he was cleared.
ReplyDeleteWWII LSTs were designed to last a minimum of 7 groundings. These were ships meant to be grounded, albiet much nore gentley than 20 knots. If LSTs were designed for 7, isn't 2 groundings cause to be concerned about the overall hull safety in a FFG?
ReplyDeleteScott, I'll let Byron speak to hull integrity (suspect he's been aboard DEWERT several times) but believe that the river grounding was essentially running up on a mud bank and floating free shortly afterwards.
ReplyDeleteOther that the obvious (that the sonar dome is trashed) I've never noticed any issues with the forward third of the hull. Dewert is one of the figs in pretty good shape.
ReplyDeleteCaptan.joe - In examining the photo, many experienced bridge watchstanders could come to the following conclusions: COW/JSM are conducting leapfrogs; JSM is clearing ahead at flank speed to reposition for COW to make her approach; COW's speed is slower, most likely 13 kts (notice the difference in the bow waves between the two ships), with her rudder right maneuvering into JSM's wake. So...this picture is worth at least more than the two words "near-miss."
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