Tuesday, November 15, 2011

Russian Navy Staggers On


As long as they don't export more of these things - I'm not worried all that much. I just wish they would deploy a lot to, ahem, help with our ASW readiness.

Via our friends at SLDInfo;
The Russian government is turning its attention to revitalizing Russia’s fleet of cruise-missile and multi-purpose attack submarines.

They are able to do so with the apparent completion of Russia’s fourth-generation Project Mk 955 Borey-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine and its new RSM-56 Bulava (NATO code name SS-NX-30) Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM).

But the production of cruise-missile and multi-purpose attack submarines has fared even worse than Russia’s strategic nuclear submarines, leaving the Russian Navy with 8 attack su­­­­­­­­bmarines designed to engage other ships and 19 submarines designed to attack land-based targets with cruise missiles. Though still functional, they will soon reach the end of their designated lifespan since they were constructed during the 1980s and 1990s.

Without urgent corrective measures, Russia’s submarine fleet could decline to fewer than 20 operational ships in a few years.
...
The focus of the Russian submarine replacement effort is now on the new Project 885 Yasen (NATO code name Graney) class nuclear-powered multipurpose attack submarine.

Being a multipurpose ship, it fulfills two roles– that of traditional attack submarines and that of Russia’s cruise missile submarines.

As an attack submarine it would replace the Akula attack submarines, and as a cruise missile vessel it would replace the Oscar II class ships. Although work started on the first Severodvinsk in 1993, with a planned launch for 1998, financial considerations halted work for most of the 1990s. Construction resumed in 2000 but delays in production continued due to financial problems as well as technical updates and modifications. The submarine was then scheduled to launch on May 7, 2010 to mark Victory Day over Nazi Germany. However, technical problems delayed the date again to June 15, when President Medvedev attended the launching ceremony.

The Severodvinsk is named after the city in which it was built. Designed by the Malakhit Design Bureau and built by Sevmash Shipyard in the northern Russia city of Severodvinsk , the boat has a double hall and a single shaft. It is 120 meters long with ten compartments. The Severodvinsk displaces 9,700 tons on the surface and 13,700 tons when submerged. It has a maximum speed of 31 knots when submerged. The submarine is equipped with mines, torpedoes, 24 long-range cruise missiles for attacking distant targets, and short-range anti-ship missiles. The torpedoes are launched through eight 533 mm and 650 mm torpedo tubes, while the cruise missiles are launched via eight vertical launch tubes. The cruise missiles include the 3M51 Alfa SLCM, the SS-NX-26 Oniks SLCM and the SS-N-21 Granat/Sampson SLCM cruise missiles, and the SS-N-16 Stallion anti-ship missile. They can be armed with conventional or nuclear warheads and have ranges up to 5,000 kilometers (3,100 miles). It has a 85 member crew, suggesting a high degree of automation.
...
The Russian Navy still has several types of multi-purpose submarines inherited from the Soviet period. These include eight Oscar II class cruise missile submarines. They are armed with P-700 Granit cruise missiles designed to attack U.S. Navy carrier task forces. They may be armed with newer cruise missiles that could allow them to attack land-based targets. The Navy also has four Victor III and three Sierra attack submarines.

The eight Akula submarines are mainly assigned to Russia’s Northern Fleet. Although the Soviet government began working on the more advanced Akula II type ship in the early 1990s, the post-Soviet collapse meant it was not until 2007 that the Russian government found sufficient funds to resume development work, starting in October 2008, to begin sea trials of the vessel.

The Russian Navy only began receiving delivery of the first of its eight planned new Lada class diesel submarines in 2010, whose construction began over a decade ago. Developed by the Rubin Design Bureau, this new type Project 677 diesel submarine reportedly operates more quietly than the venerable Russian Kilo-class diesel-eclectic submarine, which it will replace.

The Lada also has a longer operational range than the Kilos, which were constructed in the 1980s, and more advanced anti-ship weaponry. The Russian Navy wants to have eight Lada submarines by 2020, and more later, but problems with the propulsions systems used by the first vessel of this class, the St. Petersburg, have delayed completion of the other two ships whose construction has already begun.

As an interim measure, the Navy is building six new improved Kilos based on a vessel that was previously only sold to other countries (such as China). They are supposed to join the Black Sea Fleet in a few years. The Black Sea Fleet, based in Sevastopol, currently has a single Project 877 Alrosa submarine.
So, what is the new Russian Submarine - a Type IX, X? I've lost count since I was Transformationalized in the late '90s.

MTH & AW1, Norman is busy - help me out here. While we are at it - let's do a Type review.

Type 1: Hotel, Echo, November. That is easy.
Type 2: Charlie, Victor, Yankee?
Type 3: Oscar and Delta?
Type 4: ...... you take it from here, I don't want to look too dumb. I think I got my Type 3s right. Mike, Papa, Typhoon, Akula, Sierra all flow in there somewhere. I need a Cold War OS/AW/IS right now.

183 comments:

  1. LT B06:21

    Want to get good at ASW?  Learn to chase those freaking subs coming out of Colombia.  Those little buggers are hard as can be to chase around the open ocean!

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  2. Byron06:21

    Personally, I'm damn glad the Oscars are going out, they were a stone b!tch to kill in Harpoon. It would take as many as 12 Mk 46 LWT torpedos to kill one of those subs and they might get their missiles in the air before you did...

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  3. Maogwai Cat06:23

    I miss acoustics... 

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  4. Grandpa Bluewater06:34

    All the better to use a Mk48 HWT my friend...

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  5. ewok40k06:40

    USN might get there soon with all the LA's build in 1980s having to retire...

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  6. Byron07:16

    Grandpa, in the Harpoon gaming world, happiness was Kuznetsov 15000 yds to port, Kirove 15000 yds to starboard and 4 Mk48 ADCAPs on the way :)

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  7. Surfcaster07:39

    Naming the lead ship after the city that builds her in a last ditch effort to get something out of the yardworkers & managers? Snippets spread across the Interblab indicating he russkie yardbird & yard management needing more than a refocus of sorts.... Outsourcing to France in order to restablish skills (yes, different ships).

    I would need to defer any yardbirding to B but it must be tough to be motivated to build ships that far north. That bleep is cold! Like tongue stuck on frozen metal cold.

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  8. UltimaRatioRegis07:48

    That may be good training to find the 80-odd SSKs which will be running around the SPODs of the Peninsula That Shall Remain Nameless....

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  9. I'll get worried if they ever fix the Buluva missile and actually have a successful test.  Until then, still laughing.

    BTW, does a Cold War Era OS have yellow nicotine stained fingers or orange cheetos stained fingers?

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  10. MR T's Haircut08:32

    Phib, glad to help out.

    Type 1: Hotel, Echo I and II and November
    Type 2: Charlie I and II and Victor I-III
    Type 3: Yankee I and II and Delta I-IV
    Type 4: Papa
    Type 5: Alfa
    Type 6: Oscar I and II, Sierra I and II, Akula
    Type 7: Typhoon
    Type 8: Mike

    so we would be up to Type 9 me thinks

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  11. Acquisition Specialist08:33

    You forgot the Cold War STs (Sonar Technicians).
    <span>Rooskie Nooskies</span>
    Type (Gen) 1 - Correct (The Hen Class, H=Boomer, E=Missile, N=Attack Boats).
    Type (Gen) 2 - Charlie, Victor, Yankee, Delta, and Papa(1) (Y+D=Boomer, C+Y+P= Missile, V=Attack Boats).
    Type (Gen) 3 - Alpha(7), Sierra(2), Mike(1-sunk), Typhoon(6), and Oscar(13) (T=Boomer, O=Missile, A+S+M=Attack Boats)
    Type (Gen) 4 - Borei(3-4), Akula(18), and Graney(3) (B=Boomer, G=Missile, A=Attack)

    The Papa was a single boat in the type, launched in 1968 with a double titanium hull, the fastest sub - but loud.

    The Typhoons were the largest at 48,000 tons and quiet.

    Sierra was a follow-on to the Alpha.

    That's what I recall...

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  12. MR T's Haircut08:34

    Type 3 and 7 are SSBN
    Type 1 Hotel was an SSBN
    Type 1 Echo was a SSGN
    Type 1 November was first SSN
    Type 2 Charlie are SSGN
    Victors are SSN
    Oscars are SSGN
    Mike is sunk I think
    Alfas were unique titanium hulled SSNs

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  13. MR T's Haircut08:41

    Papa was a SSGN platform...

    your types and classes are wrong.. sorry ST 

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  14. MR T's Haircut08:41

    Papa was a Type 4 SSGN
    Oscar Sierra and Akulas are type 6's

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  15. Tom Mowry09:19

    Former Cold War OS here and ATACO instructor, Mr T's Haircut has it right, we use to memorize this stuff. You all need to stop being scared of these darn things, give me a Seahawk and a FFG with a tail and we will put a whooping on them any day. Byron it may take a more than one MK 46 for a hard kill but if the SOB is turning he is not shooting. The idea is to hem him in tight and then make him run fast and deep. The faster he goes the more noise he makes, and the deeper he is he can't shoot either. Once you damage him he just gets louder. A soft kill can often be as good as a hard kill.

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  16. cdrsalamander09:24

    Do I get partial credit - or do I need to schedule a re-board?

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  17. MR T's Haircut09:27

    Partial credit, extra watch and pick up your PQS from my in-box..

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  18. Tom Mowry09:27

    Your right and I believe the first Alpha had a liquid sodium reactor. They had problems with the core during testing and ended up having to remove the back half of the first one and putting a new aft section with a more traditional plant. The back half was buried in Siberia or something, probably dumped on Bear Island.

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  19. Tom Mowry09:32

    Charlies where SSGN's they used to follow the carriers in trail at about 30 NM. You would pick one up in trail as soon as you passed through the straits of Gilbrator. Victors were used for ASW, no missles. They would protect the boomers on there way down to the box. There was a picture of one on the surface on the cover of time in the 80's. The Moinester had wrapped their VDS around the Victors Tail. Yankee's and Deltas used to patrol off Bermuda in the Yankee Box. Tail ships would be assigned to "Box Ops" at times to play.

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  20. ewok40k10:14

    and on Red side 60 Backfires sending a volley of 180 AS-6 at CVBG :)
    Aegis this!

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  21. MR T's Haircut10:23

    Alfa was also unique in her Turbine configuration she could go, well lets just say damn fast...  I think they lost one off the Azores.

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  22. MR T's Haircut10:25

    Yankee Box.. old memories there... 

    Charlies are still in use.  I think the Russians leased them to India also.  SSN 7's on the CI and SSN9's on the CII...

    more mindless prattle on my hard drive...

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  23. Byron10:37

    You forget how far away an OscarII can be and still shoot... and that double hul makes a critical hit hard, unless you get a good hit on the props and bust a seal.

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  24. Byron10:40

    Badgers and Backfires and Bears, oh my! :)  The good old days, 24 Tomcats with 240 Phoenix and the carrier trying to look very small, knowing there was going to be a few leakers.

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  25. AW1 Tim10:41

    We tracked an Alpha once that was running full-bore, flat out . We had CZ contact at 480 nm.  That thing was burning deep & dark lines on our grams. Absolutely amazing. I am convinced that the Soviets were doing that as an example to us of what she could do.

      She was designed to act like a down-hill running back, dive deep & fast enough to outrun our torpedoes and break through any defensive measures to get at our carriers or our boomers if they could be located.

      Unless we caught one unawares of our presence, she could probably only be taken out with a nuke.

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  26. Aubrey10:46

    Err, no more figs...

    Can you still get the kill with an LCS? Silly question...

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  27. AW1 Tim10:47

    Mr T:

      I believe it was a November that was lost out there.

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  28. MR T's Haircut11:05

    I dont forget.. lets just say it is about the same distance from Talhassee to P'cola....

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  29. MR T's Haircut11:06

    Could be.  Disk is full.. hard to retrieve files sometimes...

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  30. MR T's Haircut11:07

    Yep

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  31. MR T's Haircut11:08

    used to actually cruise in EMCON A

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  32. MR T's Haircut11:09

    Eees Okay Signor, theese are not subs, they are really how you say? ah yes.. turtles....

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  33. Byron11:19

    Which means your helos won't have time to dunk, which means it's Viking or P-3 time... If I didn't mention it, I really hated to have an OscarII stalking my CVBG

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  34. Byron11:21

    How effective was the VictorIIIs?

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  35. MR T's Haircut11:30

    Byron, the plan in the old days was to have a FF or FFG out on the CZ's prosecuting a sub to keep it out of range of the CV.  The SH-60B processor was actually a pretty good system designed specifically to prosecute Type 2/3 Subs. 

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  36. MR T's Haircut11:32

    Pretty effective...  they had one Victor III deployer that was detected by ASWOC Lajes.  Lost when it chopped the STROG.  Wasnt detected until it outchopped the STROG weeks later....

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  37. SouthernAP11:43

    What no love for the Viking? I heard plenty of time from both Cold War AW's and Cold War trainned TACCO's that they would kill for 1-2 Viking from the carrier plus an H-3 that could dip working in conjuction with that Frigate on the outer CZ on a sierra track.

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  38. cdrsalamander12:03

    Ahhh .... the prince of darkness.  I think I know which one you are talking about and the year - even the hull number --- but I don't think we can get that specific even today about that stuff in that detail.

    I still want to meet that CO. He had a good boat and knew his water.  That and the CO of the Tango in the Med back in late '90.  Made quite the impression on an Ensign who read all the message traffic ....

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  39. ewok40k12:33

    alas, no more Vikings, no more Spruances, soon no more FFGs, there will be only LCS...

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  40. Spade12:42

    Of course you can still get a kill with an LCS.

    So long as you have the right module, the helo, and the weather is good enough to launch.

    But so long as you have that you can get a kill.

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  41. ewok40k12:49

    One thing I wanted to see, but Soviets never released, was testing the 650mm carrier killer torp. I am 99% sure they tested it on an old DD, and results must have been spectacular, to say the least... these things are bigger than Long Lance!

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  42. Byron12:55

    You mean you'd have a helo/ship out to the second CZ?

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  43. C-dore 1413:12

    @Byron, Yep...that's where I did most of my operations with the CVBG.  The best part was that I was far away from the CV and the DD that my Commodore rode around on.  In those days, however, the TACTAS FF/FFGs in the Med operated independently from the CVBG and reported to CTF-66.

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  44. C-dore 1413:18

    @MTH, You're bringing back some long nights for me and I'm getting tired just thinking about it.  On one "ASW Line" period we tracked an E-II that sounded like a freight train (I still remember the frequency) for several days in the Central Med.  Unfortunately, the next period involved a Charlie (with a new improved screw) that my SQR-18 didn't get a "whiff" of.

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  45. cdrsalamander13:24

    Smoking Datum?  Sure, LCS can do that ...

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  46. cdrsalamander13:26

    C-14. What was the progress?  Tandem 4-blade to single 5-blade to single 7-blade to the Toshiba Special?  I forget.

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  47. Byron13:31

    And hope like hell you could nail the Bear before he got the CV on the Big Bulge...

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  48. SouthernAP13:37

    Are you sure it would be smoking? Wouldn't it just be some black fuel oil and floating debris on the water?

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  49. C-dore 1413:58

    CDR S, I forget.  We believed this contact had the "Toshiba Special".  Neither of two FFs nor the FFG had any contact although a couple of the P-3s had "sniffs".  After the fact CTF-66 tried to convince everyone that the sub had never come into the Med but none of us believed them.

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  50. C-dore 1414:08

    @Byron, In '76 we were making a Trans-Pac in EMCON A with the ENTERPRISE CVBG.  One day our FFG, which was well in the van, was told to light off our (POS) SPS-52 and search.  Shortly afterwards we picked up an air contact at the radar's maximum range (I was stunned considering how poorly it usually performed) followed by the Big Bulge.  The AAWC vectored in a section of F-14s who escorted it for the next couple of hundred miles through the formation, which by then had come out of EMCON.  We went back to normal steaming with the next stop being Subic.

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  51. cdrsalamander14:15

    "Adminstratively inchop'd and administratively outchop'd"

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  52. MR T's Haircut14:18

    53cm would probably do just fine...

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  53. MR T's Haircut14:20

    Byron, Yep what C-dore said.

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  54. MR T's Haircut14:21

    Makes it easy to establish zz for the expanding circle...

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  55. MR T's Haircut14:28

    ewok, we're spending all our money on welfare, and immigration and demt interest... no money for ships.. sorry..

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  56. MR T's Haircut14:34

    Phib,
    yea, I remember the hull number also.  Prince of Darkness.  Yep we cant get into it  in any detail even now no doubt.   ;)  I read the same message traffic and I used that deployment as a trainer for my ASW Module and when I was an Analyst at TSC Sigonella in the early - mid 90's.
    Know about the Tango also... Great deployment of a Type 3 Diesel.  Good gate keeper for the Med.

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  57. MR T's Haircut14:36

    C-dore, that would be around 89 time frame...  A classic gram cut at the school house... a few of my friends had on top time in SH-2F's of all acft...

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  58. MR T's Haircut14:38

    Toshiba.. ass hats helped the Russians with the milling equipment and assistance in Cavitation reduction in certain prop and blade configurations.   No matter, we only needed that info half the time for the "Magic Assholes"...

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  59. MR T's Haircut14:40

    Yep, just like no one believed the VIII came in..  

    good stuff... stuff of legends.. we dont do ASW like this anymore... dont know how..

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  60. MR T's Haircut14:45

    Been there... love it when the Bear comes calling.  Nice and shiney and HUGE!

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  61. C-dore 1415:02

    MTH, late '88-early '89 to be exact.  We got underway the day after Christmas and were on the Line until early January (I made a point of reporting "No Liberty Incidents" in my daily SITREP out there).

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  62. C-dore 1415:07

    @MTH, "Oaktrees" from little "Acorns" grow.

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  63. C-dore 1415:13

    @Tom, I want to say that one of the SPRUs lost her tail to that Victor.  Sometimes they would intentionally try to snag it for intelligence purposes.  In this case it was probably inadvertent.  A friend of mine who was on PETERSON had photos of some of the Victor's crew cutting the array loose.  

    However, if it was MOINISTER that would have been her second lost array.  She grounded her tail/IVDS in the Med in '86/'87.

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  64. MR T's Haircut15:16

    I know of what you speak. During this time same week I think we invaded Panama.

    I did some time on the ASW line as well.  Loved it.  I was in HSL-36 during this time frame just reported and was probably cruising on a Knox class in North Sea for NATO Ops and then getting ready for REFTRA down in the Carib for our 90 MED deployment that was not to be due to Desert Shield / Storm.

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  65. Anonymous15:18

    They have fixed it, you can gett worried now.

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  66. Yes, yes absolootley. The OODA loop is out dated (if you dont know it means observe, outrun, duck, aim).
    LCS has newest tactical advantage, utilising Sprint, Hide, Identify, Track. Sub can not keep up.

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  67. turtleairships15:50

    Ha.   made me smile there.......
     my  "flying turtles" were being solicited by sketchy colombians early 2001.

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  68. C-dore 1415:51

    MTH, Panama was in Oct '89 while we were in the shipyard.  This took place around the time our airwing shot down two Libyan aircraft inside the "Line of Death".

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  69. MR T's Haircut16:02

    Gotcha

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  70. MR T's Haircut17:02

    Cold War OS?  I'm going with both

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  71. C-dore 1419:38

    I'm with MTH on this one.  Those were the days when they had metal "butt kits" attached to the ASAC's SPA-66 as well as the NC-2/PT 512.

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  72. C-dore 1419:49

    All this Cold War talk reminded me about how different the emphasis was between the Pacific and the Atlantic Fleet back then.  PACFLT focused on war at sea strikes and gunfire support and only did enough ASW (all active of course) to meet TYCOM training requirements.  In LANTFLT it was all ASW (mostly passive) all the time, multi-national exercises, and keeping a constant track on anything Soviet. (It wasn't until I was a CDR that I saw a Soviet ship other than an AGI close up).

    Oh yes...another difference was the paranoia in the Med about "liberty incidents".  The only liberty related thing we worried about in WESTPAC was Fireman Timmy arranging for his Subic Bay girlfriend to put him on "legal hold" about the time the ship was ready to head for the IO.

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  73. Byron19:57

    Operation question: back in the good/bad old days, how many ships were normally assigned to a CVBG? I'm asking because if an ASW escort is working out to the second CZ, that leaves an awful lot of ocean to cover. In computer Harpoon, we usually never had more than 3 AAW ships and at most 8 AAW ships. I typically kept my ASW ships in the forward arc, from about 60 degrees either side of the course line. I beat the hell out of the ocean, too, as each ship always had a helo out, and the Vikings were always busy. And since you're thinking, what about the rest of the coverage? Always had a tail end charlie FFG in case a fast SSN decided to sneak in from the rear. Worked pretty good, rarely if ever got hit by a REDBOAT.

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  74. C-dore 1420:30

    Byron:  My last WESTPAC/IO BG during the Cold War ('84) had a CV and 7 escorts (1 CGN, 2 DDGs, 1 FFG, 2 TACTAS FFs, and 1 FF without a tail).  My last Med Cold War BG ('88-'89) had 8 escortd (1 CGN, 1 CG, 1 DDG, 1 DD, 1 FFG, 3 TACTAS FFs, and one FF w/o TACTAS).  The LANTFLT group tended to operate two TACTAS FFs in the second CZ with one or two closer in.  In reality we hardly ever operated together except for inchop, outchop, and a major NATO exercise.  The CV usually had one of the CGs or the DDG in company and used the non-TACTAS FF as a plane guard.  A bit misleading because most of the ships (except mine for some reason) spent most of their time in port due to fuel costs.

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  75. C-dore 1420:30

    Byron:  My last WESTPAC/IO BG during the Cold War ('84) had a CV and 7 escorts (1 CGN, 2 DDGs, 1 FFG, 2 TACTAS FFs, and 1 FF without a tail).  My last Med Cold War BG ('88-'89) had 8 escortd (1 CGN, 1 CG, 1 DDG, 1 DD, 1 FFG, 3 TACTAS FFs, and one FF w/o TACTAS).  The LANTFLT group tended to operate two TACTAS FFs in the second CZ with one or two closer in.  In reality we hardly ever operated together except for inchop, outchop, and a major NATO exercise.  The CV usually had one of the CGs or the DDG in company and used the non-TACTAS FF as a plane guard.  A bit misleading because most of the ships (except mine for some reason) spent most of their time in port due to fuel costs.

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  76. Mr T's Haircut20:54

    We also had great environmental support, ONI interest, ASWOCS and SOSUS and VP support.
    We had DIFAR and CZ specific VLAD sonobouys and we had great training.

    My FF had a tail and we were pretty good with it. Hated humping bouts out of the mezzanine. I remember we had a vertrep of bouts one time.

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  77. MR T's Haircut20:56

    Make that BOUYS! stupid smart phones

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  78. Anonymous21:13

    SSGN=Missile Boat

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  79. Anonymous21:15

    SSGN=Missile Boat...sorry MR T

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  80. Surfcaster21:22

    LCS can't get to the operations area and the one free Atlantic oiler is doing Africa Partnership GFFG sheet. Maybe that's why they're building a bunch, so they can leap frog the gas & beans.

    Kinda depressing. Have to remind myself not to think too much or I'll need to run to the packy and get some liquid barley or potato based products.

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  81. Surfcaster21:23

    BTW - how do you say "PowerPoint" in Russian?

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  82. Surfcaster21:25

    BTW - how do you say "PowerPoint" in Russian?

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  83. MR T's Haircut21:26

    I remember they used to tattle tale us all the time.. Okeam, Moma and Prymora/Primora and the feared... but laughed at Balzaam

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  84. MR T's Haircut21:27

    And they all had wives or girlfriends named "Candy", "Mandy", or "Brandy"

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  85. MR T's Haircut21:28

    um.. sorry, my Dad was on your cruise as an AT1 on Big E in VA 97.. you guys also went to Australia and Tasmania... seen the cruise book...

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  86. MR T's Haircut21:40

    To counter this threat, the Cold War ASW players had great environmental support, Tactical Oceanography and we were well trained.  We WANTED to put the warshot on target.  We also had great tactics and ONI databases we had to memorize at rote.  Every Prosecution was a new Intel goldmine.  We had great equipement and the UYS-1 processor in LAMPS and P-3C was awesome.  We had  outstanding sonobouys and the DIFAR and VLAD allowed CZ prosecution. 
    We had SOSUS and TAGOS and ASWOC support and VP delouse of PIM and AOR.

    We had dominance..

    I miss the Leahy Class and Knox Class boats... nothing like an old Monkey JR check... 

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  87. MR T's Haircut21:42

    yea to contrast my ASW Module Officer tour on Enterprise in 2000-2003 we had a CG for shotgun and MAYBE a DDG as SCC...  and a SSN...   Wow how things change...

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  88. MR T's Haircut21:44

    Got you.. not trying to bust your balls... Your numbers of hulls are more precise than I can provide.  I forgot about the Borei

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  89. MR T's Haircut21:48

    We did lack diversity training though... could explain where all those Bouy replacements went and why we dont have money to do ASW excercises anymore.... priorities...

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  90. Bistro22:34

    A subject about which I never talk. I'm rather surprised by how much some of you do.

    Of course this site generates mucho concern about the ++++ of chinese PLAN and its submarines.

    I realize it's acoustics and that's a science and there is nothing but mystery about that.

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  91. DeltaBravo22:41

    Did someone say VIKINGS?  HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAAYYYY!

    ReplyDelete
  92. C-dore 1422:47

    MTH, Unfortunately we went over with the CVN but didn't return with her.  Assignment of escorts in those days was a lot more flexible than it is now.  In fact, the formal establishment of CVBGs as we know them now didn't happen until late '77.

    ReplyDelete
  93. AW1 Tim22:48

    It was fascinating to go to work and be a part of a team that KNEW it's business and worked together so very well.

    My only complaint was the transition from P-3b to the P-3C's. The way the tactical crew sat in the P-3B was a much better arrangement, to my mind, than on the P-3C. By sitting all side-by-side, we could talk to each other and at the SS-1 station, I could lean over and see the Tctical Plot, and easily talk with the Tacco rather than use the ICS, the drawback being it wasn't recorded, however.

     We were like greyhounds on the hunt, tracking those great beasts and closing in for the kill.  Lofar & Difar were good, but when we got the CASS bouys, the active solutions and tactical flexibility got a whole lot better.

    P=3C and then the P-3CUII brought an interesting problem: With the advent of the computer, thE AW "A" School dropped a lot of the math section from it's syllabus. They figured that the computer couild do the work for you. They didn't realise how often those early systems dumped onstation, and often at the worst possible time. We didn't know about the loss of math until one mission where the system dumped and I told my SS-II  to just do the work on the gram, calculate it by hand. He gave me this blank stare like I had three heads or something. I quickly found out he didn't know how to do it, so I fugured everything myself.

      Afterward I was ready to give him hell about that, until I found out the whole story.  Within a few months all of the math was back in the syllabus and the problems solved.

      We used to be so damned good at ASW. Considering the tech available to us today, we should be even better. Like shipbuilding, this all comes down to priorities set by leadership. I'd offer that, from this old AW's view, leadership has been failing our Navy, and our country, for quite awhile now.

    ReplyDelete
  94. cdrsalamander23:27

    Nothing below you won't find in any of Norman Polmars books.

    ReplyDelete
  95. SCOTTtheBADGER00:32

    Delta, are you a fellow Norskie?

    ReplyDelete
  96. C-dore 1402:16

    Or Tom Clancy for that matter.

    ReplyDelete
  97. ewok40k04:33

    if only acoustics were that simple... depending on conditions you can't hear sub a mile away, or hear it loud and clear from 30 miles...

    ReplyDelete
  98. Byron04:40

    Or even the tactical simulation Harpoon, which I've played since the early 90's...and which was used by Clancy along with one of Harpoons creators, Larry Bond, to write two books: Hunt for Red October (which got Clancy a visit and a talk with the CIA) and Red Storm Rising, which is the fictional account of a non-nuclear war between NATO and Warsaw pact, and if anything is even more "detailed".

    ReplyDelete
  99. David Govett06:09

    In  a geopolitical pinch, Russia could buy subs from Disneyland.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Tom Mowry06:35

    Whoa that's not good. Even as an OS we had to know how to calculate harmonics, and the component of speed in the line of sound in our head. It made my head hurt sometimes but we knew how.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Tom Mowry06:38

    Byron that would depend on whether we were more worried about the outer air battle or the subsurface threat.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Tom Mowry06:39

    You mean Hoovers not Vikings right?

    ReplyDelete
  103. Tom Mowry06:42

    the further you are away from the BG the better acoustics you will have. Remember the big threat for the majority of the cold war was the Charlie not Oscar or Papa. They were carrying a nominal thirty NM missle, or about the first CZ. So they would just sit back behind the carrier and wait for the order to launch if it were ever to come.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Tom Mowry06:45

    It was a very good processor, as long as you knew how to manage your directional bouys and understood the phantom PIC. The SQR 19 was slicker than a dogs a$$ when it came to processing, and the FFG was a fairly quiet platform to work from.

    ReplyDelete
  105. SCOTTtheBADGER06:49

    Mike is on the bottom off of Norway.

    ReplyDelete
  106. And you oft times had to pour something into them to quench a fire...

    Nothing like sitting on a SPA-25 in 30 degree rolls while the boat is manuevering to UNREP, a smoldering buttkit with the aroma of stale coffee and 3 day old nicotine wafting about, and a fresh CICWO in close proximity....

    Time to talk about chitlins!

    ReplyDelete
  107. BTW, does a Cold War Era OS have yellow nicotine stained fingers or orange cheetos stained fingers

    I have since found that if you spill enough rot gut tequila all over your hands repeatedly for years...those stains eventually go away.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Toshiba...

    SO wanted to buy a Toshiba tv recently...

    Told her that if she brought it in the house that she would find it broken in the back yard.

    F_*K TOSHIBA!!!

    ReplyDelete
  109. AW1 Tim07:57

    Yup....... that was so much a part of what we both did. I remember that when I went back to college, they awarded me 16 credit hours in Oceanography, just for being an AW.  :-D

    I can still remember virtually all of that math, and have taught my 13 year old the basics of it, and how the ocean works, etc.  You never know what kids might need in school.

    ReplyDelete
  110. AW1 Tim08:39

     Yup.

      And anything realted to Carter or Clinton. Especially the latter.

    ReplyDelete
  111. MR T's Haircut08:41

    Sid, you are a rare man of principle.  I like that!

    ReplyDelete
  112. MR T's Haircut08:44

    Bistro,

    We have not mentioned any sub parameters. or any detection techniques or specific hulls.  No Beadwindow yet on this thread that I can detect.

    Anyways the past is the past.. this is lost to antiquity now.. we are about 10 percent as capable as we once were...  but we do ASW differently now with Common Operating Pictures and Maritime Domain Awareness..

    I have forgotten more than we teach now..

    ReplyDelete
  113. MR T's Haircut08:47

    Love it.  I always loved doing LOFAR Gram Analysis.  Amazing to tell how fast, how long, Who, and why from a few small blurred lines on paper..
    we always had our Magic Assholes...  most of us only needed a freq to do figure the rest out..

    ReplyDelete
  114. MR T's Haircut08:50

    Tom, Vikings were called War Hoovers.. the noise the engines made... and the occasional dirt bag in the crew...

    ReplyDelete
  115. Talk to this guy Bistro...


    Nothing discussed here that matters.


    Besides, it appears the Chinese know all about our current efforts.

    Certainly enough to know how to counter them with a boat hook.

    Heck, they probably are building most of the infrastructure for us anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Grumpy Old Ham08:58

    I wouldn't take a Toshiba laptop (or anything else) if it were given to me...except perhaps straight to the dump or recycling bin...f'in a$$hats.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Grotopotamus09:01

    Hmmmmm.  http://xkcd.com/970/ 

    ReplyDelete
  118. DeltaBravo09:49

    If you go far enough back, I'm sure I am.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Grandpa Bluewater10:34

    "Dust upon the sea".

    ReplyDelete
  120. Byron10:55

    Thank you, sir!

    ReplyDelete
  121. AW1 Tim11:58

    Of course. a lot of folks might not realize just how the November Class was supposed to look and operate. She was the first of the Soviet Nuke attack Boats, and they've come a long way from this initial design, I think.

    "The initial mission of the November class was to maneuver outside of American ports and attack them with large, thermonuclear tipped torpedoes. These monsters were designated T-15, and had immense dimensions, being 1555mm in diameter, and 23 meters in length!  T-15 torpedoes used a gas-steam power plant, and had a range of 45-50 KM. The November was to have a single tube for firing these, and two standard 533mm tubes for regular torpedoes mounted abreast in the bow.  Tactical doctrine was to quietly approach the designated harbor, then launch the thermonuclear torpedo and make it’s escape. Soviet strategic analysts felt that the destruction of harbors and facilities would impede American support of a war in Europe, since the majority of supplies and troops would have to come by sea."

    here's a link to the initial concept.

    http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/nns/627/list.htm

    ReplyDelete
  122. C-dore 1413:37

    MTH, During my '72 Tonkin Gulf deployment PRIMORYE used to station herself in the middle of Yankee Station where the CV operated, usually where the downwind leg ended.

    ReplyDelete
  123. MR T's Haircut15:34

    SIT FOUR!

    ReplyDelete
  124. Sean20:20

    I casually mention to people that "those bastards [Toshiba] tried to kill me"....it usually gets people's attention.  At one company I guess I said it enough when I heard that one of the Engineers actually asked "what was the name of that company that Sean hates so much"??!!

    Let's review - sell modern milling technology that has exactly ONE application - the milling of quieter propellers for submarines.  And what might you want to hunt down with your shiny new quieter submarines?  Why a US missile boat, of course.

    A pox on them forever.

    We actually hounded our ENG so much about his Toshiba laptop that he got a different one.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Sean20:32

    The invasion of Panama in '89 was the same time we were down in the Carib shooting torpedoes at the Autec range.

    I asked the XO if we could apply for some ribbon coming out of the Panama event for providing "mission critical nuclear weapon support to the operation"

    Hell, we were in range, I figured there had to be some Army or Air Force ribbon we could qualify just on that point of order.  But nothing ever came of my request.  Damn.

    ReplyDelete
  126. SouthernAP00:08

    C-dore,

    My dad remembers being zip-lipped on the USS America in '82 just after NATO's Northern Wedding. One of the Spru-Cans as part of the escort force pulled into Edinburgh and onloaded a trailer and this Spru-Can then joined a convoy group that purposedly picked up the AGI tail and bounced into and out of Bergen and Oslo fjords while sounding like the America BatGru. Meanwhile the America dived into a heavy sea state storm only to reappear off Spitsbergn and then dive into a deep water fjord off Tromso doing combat ops. Talking him and some family friends from CVW-1, they remember the Soviets flushed a butt ton of Bear's into the Norweigan Sea looking for them and it wasn't until an F-14 got lost in the soup over Spitsberg and screaming for vectors home that the Soviets were able to find approxmately where the Carrier was. Before that they were following the Spru-can with the cool trailer. My dad remembers doing two full weeks zip liped on the ship, not even using the flight deck radios by the ABH's and the Flight Deck Coordinators. He said that was fun, in the sense that since he was the Line Chief of the A-6 outfit he had a pair of PC's welded to his hip as runners to either the Handler or to Maintenance. Meanwhile our own spy birds, spy ships and national technical means in northern England was getting all sorts of ELINT as the Red Banner Fleet went nuts looking for the America.

    ReplyDelete
  127. ewok40k05:45

    add to this, the same propeelers on the  Kilo subs in the PLAN now are facing IJN, erm, JMSDF...

    ReplyDelete
  128. Tom Mowry06:59

    Yeah when I taught ATACO school I used to teach the underwater sound and acoustics module. It's amazing what you can do when you understand the enviorment that you are working in.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Tom Mowry07:08

    I knew about the noise but not the dirtbags lol

    ReplyDelete
  130. Tom Mowry07:10

    I thought it was a Yankee, we used to call it the Yankee Datum didn't we. I remember they had an AGI posted over the datum at all times to prevent another Glomar explorer type event.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Tom Mowry07:14

    Yeah the photo on the Time cover shows a crewman trying to cut through the cable and you can see the squeeky 35 wrapped against it. I have a friend I can ask he was an OS on Moinester before he came to the Scott. I think after the sea mount the Moinester picked up the moniker Micky Mo, maybe someone else remembers.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Tom Mowry07:19

    Didn't a couple of V III's gang up on a 688 back in 87 or 88 and play tag? And I believe it was April 87 when they deployed either 3 or 4 at the same time and they went quiet and deep and ended up with one off New London, another off Norfolk, and I think at least Kingsbay GA. There was a lot of panic in C2F when they did that.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Tom Mowry07:21

    The 18 was a good tail just worked from a relatively loud platform....

    ReplyDelete
  134. Tom Mowry07:22

    LAMPS I was an ok bird if you could get past the chip light.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Tom Mowry07:25

    We were originally scheduled to be one of the tail ships in early 1988 so we would have done the hand off. Unfortunately we got reassigned to Operation Ernest Will and end up in the PG. No ASW during that cruise. ASUW all day and all night.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Tom Mowry07:28

    Ah the joys of a conventional CIC, our butt kits were next to IFF box alongside the OJ 194 or even better the OJ 197 OSC.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Tom Mowry07:30

    Alright so what are you trying to say about OS's. LOL

    ReplyDelete
  138. MR T's Haircut09:00

    Blashpemy!

    ReplyDelete
  139. MR T's Haircut09:01

    C2F only panics now when they have a diversity quota to brief..

    ReplyDelete
  140. MR T's Haircut09:02

    We used a sonobouy SLC as a butt kit once to see how long it took to fill up.. about 3 days if I recall

    ReplyDelete
  141. MR T's Haircut09:02

    sounds like ViestFjord ops...

    ReplyDelete
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