Hey - I've got my CZ slide-rule ... and our buddy Johninjax sends along something that may require AW1 Tim to find some "quality time."
I'm sorry - there are few things that requires a well trained crew than a multi-day, non-permissive ASW prosecution. You can't just throw your "A-Team" at the problem and succeed. 24/7 every watch has to be ready for prime time.
Sigh ... few people under age 45 (except for some of my 1120 buds) have any idea what I am talking about .... but odds are; those under 25 now will.
When I talk about stuff like this at work, the young programmers look at me like I have two heads. I can tell the bright ones when I show them a time/speed/distance nomogram and the light bulb goes on.
ReplyDeleteThe discussion is especially fun when we talk reliability and I assert that mean time between failures is infinite and mean time to repair for a whiz-wheel is zero seconds.
You forgot the Ten Points. I used to augment the STG's whenever we were doing an ASW whatever. Seems they didn't get five or six weeks annual schooling at FASO to sharpen skills like us AW's. LAMPS MKIII was a great way to serve and work with the Surface Folks.
ReplyDelete<span>Maybe today's sailors have been trained on this variation of the slide rule:
ReplyDelete"Convergence Zone" is now "Celebration of Diversity Zone".</span>
<span>"Sigh ... few people under age 45 (except for some of my 1120 buds) have any idea what I am talking about .... but odds are; those under 25 now will."</span>
ReplyDeleteAnd there's the rub, Sal. Folks your age and older made it that way. Especially folks more senior. They decided that we should spend our time doing GMT, not getting underway, dumbing down our certification processes, not focusing on engineering, not focusing on war fighting, wasting time with faddish overblown ATFP scenarios (don't get me wrong, I'm all about small arms proficiency but the security theater that is ATFP drills disgusts me), and global force for goodness missions. The generational fail is not with folks my age, it is with folks yours and older...
ASW, the slowest warfare area until you gain contact...then it's the quickest. It's also the thinking person's game unlike any other warfare area. As Sal says, you are in it for the long haul and given what I think our torpedo numbers are, no classifying by ordnance. I did have a lot of fun on my last DDG explaining the fun I had as a JO being the ASW Evaluator and working with my OS1 to "guess" at what the sub had just done. Lots of fun. In the near future, we will rue the day the P-3 left the fleet and the P-8 is circling at high altitude to minimize gas use.
ReplyDeleteI cannot understand why more STGs don't clammer for temporary rides on the SSNs to learn from the other side. I arranged for two of our STGs to ride for about a week each and they were amazed.
ReplyDeleteGood stuff URR. Yes, that is probably the real training.
ReplyDelete<p>Actually - you have it a bit wrong. I know it because I did it as a JO against non-permissive real-world targets that sailed under a red flag with a yellow hammer and sickle on it. The simulators and training exercises were mostly a source of scorn to us where the augmenters were too loud and the exercises too scripted.
ReplyDelete</p><p>
</p><p>For the record - Gen X doesn't even have a Flag Officer yet. We will have a 1-star soon. Very soon. Sooooo .... blame this on winning the Cold War more than anything else. Exercises and simulators always have been and always will be good for little more than building procedures and motor-memory regardless of what others may tell you. ASW you really can't do in either exercises or simulators well. The best exercise ASW wise I was ever in was RIMPAC - but that was because the Japanese knew there were Koreans about and they only sent their best boats with their best COs. It showed.
</p>
Excellent point, it was the senior officers that decided to go the way of "I'm ok, you're ok." in training and went all higgeldy piggeldy liberal on us.
ReplyDeleteLMAO
ReplyDeleteAW Common Core in San Diego in the 80's had some of the toughtest cuts you would see. Great Liberty and Hard school in San Diego tough to be a young AW back then.. fast forward to early 90's and time for this old Helo guy to go through Acoustics 1 and Acoustics 2 advance Jez in Norfolk to go to Dam Neck to learn the ASWOC/TSC course.. I paid attention and LOVED the analysis..
ReplyDeletenow you mention grams to a new AW and they get the dear in the headlights look...
I am enjoying my morning coffee now, youre bringing me flashbacks of Bouy Load outs and Sono Launch Tableu's.. Grease pencil markings showing depths of my Difar bouys, and damn it why did the SK order all channel 12's DICASS in D sideband?? Colocating bouys both Active and Passive when criteria was gained and simulating a deliberate attack using Mad, Dicass, Difar and hell even an old Yardstick.. then dropping the SUS set to the proper code....
ReplyDeleteInteresting point - Will GenX becoming senior leadership have a positive impact?
ReplyDeleteAnd then there was the Flt II LA that dropped a smoke flare on the CVNs flight deck to show their contempt for augmenters...
ReplyDeleteASW was always my favorite part of Harpoon. You had to really work at it, knowing there was a VictorIII out there licking it's chops. I used every trick in the book and then some, like the time a Kilo was stalking and all I could get was a faint track. I dropped an ASROC into the area and found him. Even saved the Knox though it was a little worrisome for a bit :)
Best chess game I ever played, me vs Soviet boat Cap'n.
ReplyDeleteCan it be OCTOMATED, OCTOGRIPPED, or Droned?? Well I'm a dig in the dirt grunt. Not even a USMC cruise for me. I can see your future though..it's...drones....yepp...made for it.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand as long as they want us to keep dealing with live people Grunts have a future...mind you, most of the ones the last decade would not be a net loss to humanity.
Happy New Year anyway. And when I see that slide rule I know I made the right decision. Grunt smash!!
Victor III Hull (can we say hull numbers now?) circa 90-91. "The Prince of Darkness."
ReplyDeleteSurface, air, and sub; I think he left the Med with everyone's jock. I'd love to meet that Soviet Skipper. Good boat, great CO even if he was a Communist SOB. I hope the post-Soviet world treated him well.
Grow your bandwidth and payload capability, along with secure links - then we will talk about the drone's future outside niche areas.
ReplyDeleteAs a young ASWE on the waterfront, I have never seen one of those
ReplyDeleteI was on a boomer at the time frame in question and all of a sudden we got a very TS briefing on this guy.
ReplyDeleteYikes!
Someone forgot to tell him he was on the JV....!
Oh God.........Byron's telling "war stories" again from his days playing HARPOON.......
ReplyDeleteYour 1120 buds didn't use this whiz wheel - we had to do it in our heads...
ReplyDeleteI hear he is the proprietor of a convenience store in Brighton Beach....
ReplyDeleteI still have my old Jez kit. The PR's made it for me in exchange for a bottle of Jack. I brought them in my gear, and they cut a patrtern and sewed it together with a velcro closure. It held a Casio calculator, several grease pencils and felt tips, a set of 10-points, a steel ruler, a small vial with spare stylus, etc.
ReplyDeleteI also carried a circular slide rule in my flight suit pocket. Handy thing, that.
I went through VP-30 prior to orders to VP-5, then up to VP-10. That was SS1/2 on P-3b's. I was due to go to ASWOC Brunswick, but with the squadrons transitioning to the P-3cUII's, I had to go back through VP-30, then up to Dam Neck for TSC/ASWOC school, then back to NASB.
When I got to ASWOC Brunswick, there were no non-acoustic types, so I volunteered to go through the FASO Non-Acoustic refresher course, then ran the N/A section of the 14B44 simulator for the wing. I also held a NATOPS blue card for SS1/2 positions, so did some check rides for Wing Five from time to time.
ASW truly is the thinking man's game. There are so many variables and you need to have the hunter's mind and the chess player's patience. You need to know not only your own equipment and capabilities, but your target's capabilities, what his training was probably like, what his mission likely is, etc.
You need to know oceanography, the principles of sound in water, submarine construction, etc. It's all a very rewarding job, and the comeraderie was on a level that is hard to explain. Hard charging, hard living, long hours and lots of living out of a seabag or even helmet bag :)
I miss those days.
Being a former CVS Navy AX, our tool of choice was ten-points (which had eleven points, btw). Ever heard of CVS ASCACs? One remains aboard HORNET, and it is partially intact. Still locked up but examples of the gear has been reinstalled. Aboard ESSEX, we lived and breathed ASW during ops. Three low boy planters maintained the buoy fields, while high boy relay birds delivered the data OTH to mother.
ReplyDeleteCZ data was calculated each watch afer dropping a BT buoy, suing charts. Whiz wheels were before our time. As far as watch changes were concerned, when prosecuting, we stayed on station until told we could sleep. A 1 kg jar of mil grade benzedrine was in the workspace and meals were provided. Some of the most boring and most exciting times of my life, except for the damn benzedrine. In today's Navy, a picogram of the stuff would get you a Big Chicken Dinner.
Nope, just telling how much fun I had running ASW scenarios...and before you pat me on the head, a friend of mine who was once WEPS on an OHIO told me I know more about how stuff works, especially ASW than I should, and that he had to be very careful of what he said around me.
ReplyDeleteAnd since Harpoon was once taught at the Naval Academy as a training tool, and it's genesis was a little thing called NAVTAG, I wouldn't be sneering too much.
ah memory lane!
ReplyDeleteDESRON 31 "Red Stallions" circa '85-'87 and BG Alfa with DESRON 15 out of Yoko '87-'90....when "training" was LIVE and PI the reward!
For what it's worth...my shadow box contains a set of tenpicks...that alos earned the "hey, What'zat?" comment by today's youngun's....sigh.
I was on the Strike Trawler Deyo when we had a sniff of that particular Victor in late Summer '91 round the time of the big stern barbecue. What a year!
ReplyDelete(mutters, he probably read "Hunt for Red October" and "Red Storm Rising"...)
ReplyDelete"Everybody's A Winner" syndrome. At the end of the day, the victor writes the history...there is no dissenting opinion.
ReplyDeleteByron.......it's nothing but love. Only three men on this blog escape ribbing from me:
ReplyDeleteC-Dore 14
Grandpa Bluewater
URR
Everyone else? Fair game! And I expect the same treatment in return!
How much payload do you want? And how secure? There's a world of difference between the RC models with a camcorder and the heavy iron.
ReplyDeleteOne more memory - more of smell than of sight. Not AQA-5, but close enough.
ReplyDeleteCredit: http://www.iusscaa.org/ide.htm
Just off the top of my head I'd say a diesel boat, but that main signal seems a tad bit high for that, also seems a bit high for a turbine, and there isn't much instability to ID that anyway.
ReplyDeleteOf course, not knowing the scale it's set to, It might be a surface contact, especially with all those harmonics headed up from it. However, I'd stay, I guess, with my old eyes and guess it's a diesel boat. Been 30 years, but it does bring back sights, sounds and scents to this old AW. :)
By the By, thanks for the link to the site. That looks worthy of a blog post in the near future!
ReplyDeleteI'm no ASW geek, but there's just something about that piece of gear that makes me feel all warm inside, anyway... ;)
ReplyDeleteGOH, here's a room full: http://www.iusscaa.org/remwhene.htm
ReplyDeleteOur shipboard suite was much smaller, but you get the idea.
@Brad, This dinosaur made the DESRON 23 (PACFLT ASW squadron circa '73-74) WESTPAC deployment along with BRONSTEIN and her TASS (not TACTAS).
ReplyDeleteHow many folks here, besides me, have slapped an Acorn Templet on the DRT at the start of a long, and often futile, lost contact search?
ReplyDelete@SJBill, Just before we deployed in '73 a Chief from COMCRUDESPAC's ASW shop showed up on our quarterdeck with a carboard box filled with parts of an AQA-4 that they'd ripped out of an S-2F on its way to the "boneyard". "Just set this up and mount the antenna on your mast and when you get back let us know how it worked. You can 'bum' some sonobuoys off of one of squadrons at North Island and toss them off your fantail". Since our FF (still classified as a DE back then) hadn't received the LAMPS conversion yet we didn't have much opportunity to use it but let's just say that the test was less than spectacular. Fortunately the INSURV was after our deployment and my transfer.
ReplyDeleteI know that one...
ReplyDeleteMCJR anyone?
ReplyDeleteROGER your Monkey Junior, MTH. You may be showing your age - I sure am.. ;)
ReplyDeleteWe had one of the first installed aboard ship: made by Teledynamics Corp, Philadelphia. Tough to keep operating in warmer climes.
C-dore, you're a man of the cloth, Sir! Been stabbed in the fingers a few times from 10 points and from AQA-4 and AQA-5 styli.
ReplyDeleteWe used the AQA-4 mainly during aircrew debrief. Our regular gear consisted of four AQA-5s, and several larger analyzers (which were not 440 AC powered).
IIRC, we tried dragging early "tails" behind our DDs and DDEs back in the day and we used these analyzers. I believe the concept was termed DES JEZ.
We even helo transferred some gear and operators to assist bubbleheads while underway. Met CDR J. Guy Reynolds, CO, JACK, in the NORLANT (rest VADM Reynolds soul).
@SJBill, Yep..."Des Jez" was what they called it. Of course, I didn't have anyone aboard who had a clue how to analyze the grams but that didn't bother CRUDESPAC at all. On the East Coast at this time they were installing BQR 20 narrow band equipment on a few of the 1052 Class. We had to make do with guessing what was going on using the SQS-26's "Unit 31" BRR. BRONSTEIN and McCLOY each had the SQR-15 (?) TASS installed but the only TACTAS that I was aware of was on JOSEPH HEWES, an East Coast KNOX-class. The dark ages.
ReplyDeleteNow thats as wrong as Two Boys F*@*ing!!
ReplyDeleteI damn near spit my coffee all over the landscape, T!!!!
ReplyDeleteDon't you know that being appalled by a man dipping his wick in another man's hairy a** makes you a hateful homophobe unfit to serve your masters (Mullen and Obama)?
...must remember to keep the eye bleach handy when I read URR's comments...the memory wipe, too ;)
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