With the Iraq war done - what about those who served? Unlike your humble blogg'r - not everyone makes a career out of it.
What now?
A nice overview from the West Coast about a few making the transition to the civilian world from being a warrior;
As a side note; Alex is 29. From one perspective - especially the civilian perspective - that is young. In the military, nosomuch.
29 is an age an officer starts to hit his stride. I've recently become aware of a few other guys and what they did in the late-20s. In the book I am listening to right now, Valkyrie
, Georg & Philipp Freiherr von Boeselager were leading Regiments on the Eastern Front and were critical members of the plot to kill Hitler. They were in their late 20s too.
Perhaps that is part of the civilian-military divide. We put our lives in the hands of 18-19 yr old "kids" all the time, and put people in their late 20s in charge of hundreds to thousands of lives without thinking about it.
Think about Alex and thousands of others like him who have spent their 20s at war. Then read what is going on the civilian side. Just search for random 29-yr olds ..... and here you go.
A nice overview from the West Coast about a few making the transition to the civilian world from being a warrior;
So here he is. Single — because who can date when deployed four times in seven years? — and eschewing the safer graduate school route to gamble on a startup company.OK regulars - name sound familiar? CPT Alex Martin, USMC? Yep - you've read his name here in FEB - and we interviewed him on Midrats the month before.
No regrets, he says. His Marine Corps experience taught him to be humble, like when he was a green 2nd lieutenant facing a battle-toughened platoon. It also taught him to go with his feelings.
“It’s safer to go to business school, to go work at a bank. This is scary. There’s no net. The partners could fire me any day,” Martin said.
As a side note; Alex is 29. From one perspective - especially the civilian perspective - that is young. In the military, nosomuch.
29 is an age an officer starts to hit his stride. I've recently become aware of a few other guys and what they did in the late-20s. In the book I am listening to right now, Valkyrie
, Georg & Philipp Freiherr von Boeselager were leading Regiments on the Eastern Front and were critical members of the plot to kill Hitler. They were in their late 20s too.Perhaps that is part of the civilian-military divide. We put our lives in the hands of 18-19 yr old "kids" all the time, and put people in their late 20s in charge of hundreds to thousands of lives without thinking about it.
Think about Alex and thousands of others like him who have spent their 20s at war. Then read what is going on the civilian side. Just search for random 29-yr olds ..... and here you go.
That was the case for C.J. Dulberger. The Bolles School grad studied history at the University of Florida in preparation for law school. He worked for a private law firm and the State Attorney’s Office while studying for the law school entrance exam.
That cured him of the profession.Yes, he is 29 and is in his first actual job outside of pre-law busy work. Don't get me wrong - I'm happy for the guy and wish him a great adulthood.
So he went back and began a bachelor’s program in information technology management at Florida State College at Jacksonville. He’s still two semesters shy of getting that degree, but he’s already bucked trends that have kept many of his contemporaries underemployed: At 29, he’s in his first year as an account executive at Robert Half Technology, placing IT professionals in jobs.
Good grief. There isn't a divide in life experience; a chasm.
Why do we prefer each others company inside and out of uniform? Well - review Alex vs. C.J. and there's a start.
Why do we prefer each others company inside and out of uniform? Well - review Alex vs. C.J. and there's a start.
The biggest lie I was ever told was how much my military experience will work for me in the civilian world. Ideally, entering and exiting the military is supposed to be an "escalator system" where you get back on where you would have if you had not entered the military, as opposed to standing in place while your peers continue to rise (this is the legal analogy, I didn't invent it).
ReplyDeleteTruth is, though, when you start out of the military, you start with the newbies out of college. And as for your boss who is 4 years younger than you and has no leadership skills, tough sh*t.
On the other hand, I work with a number of veterans who haven't distinguished themselves in the civilian world. . .
There was an excellent article in the Harvard Business Review within the past year that talked about the transition from the military into the civilian world.
ReplyDeleteThis just in...KJI is dead.
ReplyDeleteyes...I thread-jacked.
Hiring a MilVet can be a very productive decision, but like all things in life, "it depends." was the vet successful in their military career? Do their skill sets match your needs? What about company "culture?" Obversation has shown me that certain industries seem to match what we have learned better than others. Manufacturing, team-based, IT & IT hardware, even the culinary arts seem to reward the kinds of personal focus and goal-setting that we learned. But, in the end, it comes down to the individual. As GYSGT R. Lee Ermey says, "you are the a$$hole in charge of your own destiny."
ReplyDeleteSaw that last night. Good to see as of this morning he is still dead andd had not somehow cone back to life...
ReplyDeleteLeaving the military was like jumping in a pool... you are worried you will sink, but in the end.. we all float..
ReplyDeleteThis will be our next greatest generation. After ten years at war, multiple deployments overseas, dealing with communities that were literally bombed back to the stone age (or never left it), helping to rebuild nations and villages.....our veterans are returning. Just as after WWII, unemployment is up and they are self-sorting into college or seeking jobs. As others have pointed out, it's not easy fitting into an organization where the boss has never faced a bigger decision than skim vs whole milk in his latte. Which is why I have predicted all along that we will, within a couple years after the critical mass of veterans have returned, see an explosion in entreprenurship and political engagement. God bless 'em; they will save the rest of us from ourselves.
ReplyDeleteWhy do we prefer each other's company vs the average slob?
ReplyDelete- Because we know the difference between being a citizen and a civillian?
- Because we know that Courage * Honor * Commitment and Duty * Honor * Country aren't just advertising campaigns
- Because we know what sacrifice looks like--beyond the rifle planted between the boots with a helmet on top of the buttstock, it looks like an empty cot in your hooch. It looks like your best friend.
- Because we have watched our children open their presents via SKYPE on Christmas; or just received a phone call to let us know that Santa still comes when we're gone.
- Because no matter what, when you are out there, the most important person in the world is right next to you and you will do whatever it takes to make sure he/she gets home.
- Because we get it.
Welcome home to everyone who was out in OIF. Victory and honor is yours. I know that everyone who came before is smiling on you from above, insanely proud as we are back home.
Now let's finish the job with OEF.
I'm 29.
ReplyDeleteYesterday on facebook I got to see two of my HS classmates, one with a graduate degree, bitch about "underemployment". They both have minimum wage jobs working less than 40 a week. One of them, who again is 29, bitched that "companies don't want to hire young computer literate people because of ageism." She's 29. She ain't "young" anymore. And the computer literate thing died in the 90's since everybody is that today.
And then you look at this guy and I realize what I should've said in response was "it's not that they don't want young people. They just don't want you."
<span>"Why do we prefer each others company inside and out of uniform?"</span>
ReplyDeleteShared acknowledgement that there are things called standards, accountability, and "getting the job done" (by sacrifice if necessary)?
Minor nit, AOM; I'm a civilian and a citizen...and I clearly understand the responsibilities of both.
ReplyDeleteMy son recently decided to leave active duty after his enlistment and go to college on his GI Bill.
ReplyDeleteHe has quickly learned the difference between those he served with and those back home. He was complaining bitterly last night about trust issues, about how, except for those here he grew up with and those he served with, the rest of the folks he meets just "don't get it."
He went from a high-school drop out to a combat verteran, an airborne infantryman with a CIB and he learned all about leadership, honor, trust, and the value of your word, of being able to be counted upon. Now he sees that he can't always count on those around him, that their value system isn't the same as his, and he is severly disappointed in his fellow citizens.
in the picture i see wisdom and grace way beyond his years.
ReplyDeleteC
Cupa, at one time (at least for the shipyards) this was true. A Machinist Mate CPO retiring could pretty much walk into a Machinist leadman job. Same for Shipfitters and welders. Nowadays, not so much. Sailors are trained the way they used to be and sure as hell don't work on their ships like they used to. Not blaming the sailors coming out; blaming big Nay for taking you guys away from (I'll hate myself in the morning) your core competencies.
ReplyDeleteA couple of thoughts on this:
ReplyDeleteThe civilian-military divide is greater now than, in my opinion, it has ever been in the US. That is a dangerous and scary thing because that divide is self-reinforcing, and we run the very real risk of it becoming perpetual.
It is dangerous to civilians as you have a body in the military that is core to the US that views anyone not of that body to be alien, sub-par, and in extreme cases the "enemy". The example I am using as the basis here is not the US military as it stands now, but the members of large city law enforcement. LAPD officers divide the world into cops and criminals. No one else. Military professionals completely divorced from civilians run the very real risk of going down that same road.
It is also dangerous and scary to the military - who, sitting at home and watching the news on their TV, understands even a hundredth of one percent of what someone walking patrol in Fallujah feels? Who back at home knows the pains that AOD talks about below with the empty cot? As civilians become more divorced it becomes much easier for them to view military professionals as alien, defective (see some of Sal's recent posts on that topic in regards to returning vets), or even in extreme cases the "enemy".
Is the answer the draft and compulsory service? I don't know - any institution of the draft to deal with this problem of the divide would be for purposes of social-engineering (in terms of bridging the chasm), and would not, and probably could not, be done in terms of true military effectiveness. However, if you want the greater part of the population to understand the values of the military, then it is probably a path that needs to be seriously considered. When the some members of each side of the divide view the other with disdain, cynicism, distrust and, sometimes, contempt the problem grows acute. If and when the majority of each side take those views, the problem becomes dangerous. And yes, we are not the first society to go through this....history, as ever, can provide some strong background, as well as some potential (and scary) results.
One last note - there are civilians that "get it", while there are also vets that don't. Who would any of you rather have a beer with, Byron or Bradley Manning?
Totally agree, CDR, and I'm also looking forward to the impact that the new vets will have on local, state and federal government.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone needs to take a powder. This won't be anything like post WWII. There just aren't that many of them (us) out there. The numbers are very small compared in both number and pct.
ReplyDeleteCDR, I agree with you and I'll add something from a wife's perspective: I was still a college student when I met my husband. Most of the guys that I knew still acted pretty juvenile, and I could see that a lot of men in their 20s were drifting through life without any great goals. They were getting older but they weren't exactly growing up.
ReplyDeleteMy husband wasn't like that. He had finished college and moved right along with life, and at 25 he was ready to court me with a view to marriage and a family. As I met his friends, I could see that most of them had a similar attitude. They weren't drifting, they were moving purposefully forward to their goals. We'd be better off if more civilian men shared that trait.
I wish CPT Martin every success, and now that he's home, I hope he finds a wonderful wife, too. :)
This generation of vets, both male and female, are desperately needed in the political arena. On school boards, city councils, state legislatures, and most of all in Congress.
ReplyDeleteWe are a political culture which has been overrun by egocentric and greedy lawyers and the education establishment, with idiots from the Diversity industry working their way up.
We need these people who know "duty, honor, country, courage and commitment" and are willing to engage in the political fights to restore those values to our country. Before it is too late. And, there is not much time left.
Yes, the vets have already given much for our nation, but we need more from them to save our country from domestic enemies just as they have protected us from foreign enemies.
It's for the children, theirs and ours, and those of the idiots who have doomed future generations of Americans to lower standards of living and indebtedness by their greedy actions.
Kristen - my sister, the HS teacher, has made very similar comments. Her students that go into the military very quickly become adults, with the same concerns and responsibilities as her (she's late 40's). Those that go directly to college remain children until they graduate (and some beyond that).
ReplyDeleteIt won't happen. Those that do serve don't want to be dragged down in the mud by the establishment. Plus the memes are already out there, all of us vets of OIF/OEF are wild-eye crazies who have PTSD which the government doesn't care about and in any second we will snap going on a rampage of violence.
ReplyDeleteHave to agree with SAP.
ReplyDeleteI would never subject myself to the despicable muckraking that someone who has an "unacceptable" point of view in the opinion of the media would undergo.
I have never been arrested, never been in any kind of trouble, obeyed the law, and never raised my hand to a woman. We have all done things we aren't proud of, but that is precisely how the overwhelming preponderance of any kind of media treatment of a veteran would be couched. No matter what else he has done in his life, he will be subjected to the few things in his life for which he feels shame, simply because he is capable of feeling shame.
While Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are lionized as pillars of personal integrity.
No, thanks.
I'd love to counsel our returning vets to never presume civilian's don't "get" or appreciate your value. For every milllion vets out there, there are several million more who are related to you, friends with you,,,,we are not unaware of what you bring to the table. Most of us appreciate it. Wait for civvies to tip their hand that they are an idiot. Don't lump us all in that boat. That would be as unfair as us assuming you all are battle-scarred maniacs waiting to spray the office with bullets.
ReplyDeleteDunno, DB, about Sid and Lt. B.... 8-)
ReplyDeletePhib, how many of these vets are wired to the internet? If memory serves, my first blog was ArmorGeddon...second was B5...third was you...and all of you were serving and in some cases, still over there. Quite a few of the returning vets are well spoken and have a tale to tell. The intertubes make for a handy soap box, do they not?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I've seen good and bad. The sense of entitlement can be an interesting one in the civilian workplace.
ReplyDelete"Our lives, our fortunes, our sacred honor"...
ReplyDeleteAnd you're worried about a bit of muckraking? Please....
And I humbly submit sir, did you once ever thing when you started this little place that you would be read by E-ringers daily and giving extreme cases of heartburn once a week? Is not your little "soapbox" powerful beyond it's size? Many of these young people are so connected...and after that, all it takes is motivation.
ReplyDeleteByron,
ReplyDeleteWhen did you quit beating your wife and pimping your grand kids out? Oh wait you didn't? When did you stop or when will you quit lying about doing so? That is the modern era, just look at the way that some folks are willing to take down Rep Allen West. Most of the media isn't completely listening to what he is saying, rather they are immediately ripping into what he is saying or attempting to paint him as a closet clan member. The meme as Cdr has talked about before here has been that all of us Vets of OIF/OEF are just Rambo's waiting to blow up because of PTSD. I am sorry, but even I am not willing to subject myself to that level scuritiny even at the local level for dog catcher.
Yes, Byron, I am worried about muckraking. Every one of my mistakes and missteps made public, magnified and mixed with innuendo and deliberate falsehood by people whose goal it is to destroy that "sacred honor".
ReplyDeleteI've SERVED my country. Thirty years next July. I have seen the elephant.
The implication that I haven't quite done enough, coming from someone who has never served, is more than a bit unbecoming.
It's not that you don't get the value of service........it's the intangible "it". One of those things. Like being in a house fire. You don't get it until you've done it. You become a member of the brotherhood...not just some poser with a T Shirt that has a maltese cross and some numbers.
ReplyDeleteStarship Troopers. Who says a small group of motivated vets can't make a difference? Paging Samuel Huntington.............
ReplyDeleteLike x1000.
ReplyDelete<span>While Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are lionized as pillars of personal integrity.</span>
While the chronic inaccuracy of the MSM is annoying, it can (and is starting to) be mitigated...it's this unending, absolute hypocrisy when it comes to the MSM's "favorites" that causes me to question their agenda and motivation.
yeah Ham: they stopped calling us "baby killers" after we punched out anumber of them.
ReplyDeletec