... I'm sure he would. He can't/shouldn't - so I am going to join with Lex in asking; something is wrong. What is it?
Admiral Harvey outlines where we are,
Here's a summary of the ten Commanding Officer reliefs that occurred in 2010 and 2011 in U.S. Fleet Forces.He also offers some very good advice for those in or want to be in the Command pipeline. Read it all.
- USS THE SULLIVANS- Multiple operational incidents culminating with a buoy collision that damaged the port screw while deployed.
- USS JOHN L HALL - Collision with a pier while deployed
- USS TRUXTUN - Inappropriate relationship with a junior member of the wardroom.
- NCTS Bahrain - Inappropriate relationships with several members of the command.
- USS GUNSTON HALL - Sexual harassment, maltreatment of subordinates, assault, drunk and disorderly conduct. Command Master Chief (CMC) also relieved for failure to take appropriate action for inappropriate/unprofessional behavior.
- USS MEMPHIS - Cheating ring involving exams.
- NMCB 21 - Failure to address inappropriate/unprofessional behavior by subordinates. CMC also relieved for failure to take appropriate action for fraternization and unduly familiar relationships.
- USS ENTERPRISE - Exceptional lack of judgment while XO of ENTERPRISE.
- USS STOUT - Failure to take action to deter unprofessional behavior in overseas ports, hostile command climate. CMC also relieved for failure to correct a pervasive pattern of unprofessional behavior by the ship's crew.
- USS PONCE - Dereliction of duty, unprofessional conduct, favoritism, hostile command climate. Executive Officer (XO also relieved for being complicit by action and inaction in creating a hostile, unprofessional and unsafe environment onboard PONCE.
Lex's ponderings, I am sure, echo many others' thoughts as they look at what is going on.
Something has changed, and I don’t believe its intolerance for buffoonery from flag officers – the standards are pretty darn clear. Instead, it must be something in the culture. We’re either raising people to positions of leadership that they’re not qualified for, or people have come to believe that wearing that command pin makes them somehow eight feet tall and bulletproof. Or maybe some combination of the two.Like I commented over at Lex's place, there is something very wrong going on here. It's not ignorance - heck this stuff is pounded in your head. We know from the Baghram P-3 off the runway to a couple of ship groundings, there are significant issues with people having enough flight hours/underway time prior to Command - but the personal behavior stuff? You've got me.
I bet there’s some fascinating analysis circulating within the flag ranks, but as for me, I’m mystified.
Has the Navy changed, people changed - or a little of both? Something is out of balance.
I think we could use a more open discussion of the causes and punishment. We don't need to gibbet people from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge - but we do need to do more than we are now. Fear and shame can work wonders for some personality types. Quite and cuddly ain't doing the trick anymore.
So is biology.
ReplyDeleteSkippy,
ReplyDeleteYou said a mouthful. I would actually hit "like" if Js-kit didn't boot me out.
You hit Harvey's part in this square on the head. His handling of Captain Honors did and will continue to have consequences.
Funny, his words "loyalty to the institution" are almost verbatim what many in the heirarchy of the Catholic Church used as justification to ignore and hide the terrible abuse scandals, and when brought to the light of day, protect the monsters who perpetrated it.
Something about the last bastion of scoundrels...
<span>270 ships doing the business of 400 is no way to run a railroad.</span>
ReplyDeleteQFT!
and prepare for 170 of them by 2030 or so...
I knew what I was doing and who he is. Think some more why he is there. If it helps, as I have posted in the past, I am a huge fan of the Captain ... and have even been to his home in London.
ReplyDeleteFair points all and deserve to be part of the discussion.
ReplyDeleteYou've been to Charles Laughton's house?
ReplyDeleteJust for an aperitif and a game of spades.
ReplyDeleteUm......maybe? But read the posts. A lot of these guys had it coming. And in the case of Etta CJ Jones, she was like this since she was a department head. She was above the law and knew it, and her superiors let her get away with things because they were afraid to confront her. The real burden, however, is not just on the XOs or the CMCs, it is ALSO on the heads of those in the selection board who knew......
ReplyDeleteAR, you are correct, however you have to acknowledge one thing. With both Graf and Jones, they did not turn into monsters overnight. they were the way they were since they were DivOs. they were allowed to continue on their merry way for whatever reason. Happens to men too, but potentially for different reasons?
ReplyDeleteShe was above the law and knew it, and her superiors let her get away with things because they were afraid to confront her.
ReplyDeleteExactly my point, the PC environment PREVENTS the direct confrontation of those of the protected classes. Flags over the years have created this environment, it will take years to correct.
Ask yourself, is this a better Navy than say 25 years ago?
The simple fact of the matter is that nearly half of these reliefs could have been avoided by following the oh-so-wise advice that I got from my O-5 sponsor dad at the Academy on having a semi-successful career: "Don't f*#$ the help (officer or enlisted)."
ReplyDeleteI'm just a dirty contractor, but...
ReplyDeleteSomebody over at Lex's made the comment that "Marines don't have these issues."
Now, over in the Marines and Army the "traditional" role of a new officer is to get shipped off to run a platoon of 40 people.
Are there any vessels in the Navy commanded by junior officers? Or positions that are really like that?
I dunno, it's just that my (few) Navy friends are like "Oh, well, I was the ASW officer on a FFG and I had a couple guys and some gear, and well, stuff, but we weren't sent anywhere there were subs anyway." vs "I commanded a couple Bradley's and 40 guys or so in Korea and then ran convoys in Iraq." Just seems like my ground friends got more experience actually commanding and leading stuff then my Navy friends.
At the Ensign/2nd Lt. level that is, for those friends.
ReplyDelete<p><span><span><span>RE: Female Officers</span></span></span>
ReplyDelete</p><p><span><span> </span></span>
</p><p><span><span><span>Why are just the hot chicks getting relieved? Maybe hotness should be taken into account during selection?</span></span></span></p>
I think that Skippy touched on some of it, however there is also a lacking point of the CPO mess. When Skippy was in and a CO, there was a strong CPO mess that knew how to take care of things at the lowest level, they knew how to control not only stupid with in thier own mess and kept most of the stupid from becoming issues for the command, finally they knew how to tactifully body check the CO/XO to keep them from doing stupid. Look around at half of these incidents and scratch the surface a little deeper the CPO mess of the Navy is failing. Heck look at the Stout, that is a bad sign when C6F comes in and cleans out your CPO mess as well as taking the CO/XO/CMC. Also look at what the MCPON has recently said to the CPOs, "Pull your heads from your rears or I will and you won't like it!"; so there is a number of reasons command pins have been ejecting from people's breasts. We need to take a whole look at this not just finger plug the little leaks.
ReplyDeleteGator,
ReplyDeleteAgreed. However, the answer to the Grafs* is not to say women make bad COs...it's to say "stop failing to correct defects in officers out of fear of the PC climate." It's not the woman who fails, in that instance...it's every supervisor in her career who failed to take her aside and tell her she was jacked up.
*I am going to reserve a lot of comment on Jones, as I know her personally however, I invite anyone who would compare her to Graf to look at her record first. A Holly Graf, she ain't.
<span>AR,
ReplyDeleteIt is much more than "failing to correct defects out of fear of the PC climate". It is to stop finding a woman whom higher powers anoint early to be a CO and then fast-track her there regardless of performance, personality, suitability, or temperament. Happened with Graf. She was the shining star BECAUSE she was female. And it ain't like it hasn't happened before. Re: LT Hultgreen. She passed through flight training with more than a few evals that, any one of which, would have washed her male counterparts. And when she went in the drink, she took her backseater with her.
What price, diversity?</span>
The backseater got out, Kara didn't.
ReplyDeleteI knew her, by the way. Nice kid. I don't blame her for augering in, I blame the leadership that let her press beyond her abilities.
It's been a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts for a while. Responsiblity levels are continually shifted upwards leaving newly-minted COs with little real decision making experience. Further, the advent of global telecommunications has made it easy to "phone home" for the hard calls. Now when folks screw up at making a call, it only reinforces leadership's desire to take more of a hold on how things are done. Rinse and repeat.
ReplyDeleteThis now creates an environment where COs now see themselves as nothing more than step in the chain vice the HMFIC. Accordingly, some start to act just like they are part of the crew.
I would also blame the leadership for making her a superhero when she wasn't.
ReplyDeleteI will always blame the leadership for trying to cover up the real reason for the crash: pilot error.
Graf is hot?
ReplyDeleteI wish I had an answer, but what I will propose is that a LOT of what we are seeing today is a direct result of the sicial-engineering taking place in the public schools.
ReplyDeleteThe attitude that "everyone is a victim" and that every kid should make the team, no one should fail, everyone passes to the next grade, etc, is at least one of the causes of what we see in play in the fleet. It goes part and parcel with the comments below about the PC atmosphere present, and is a handmaiden to the Diversity Crew and all their dogma.
We seem to have taken away the idea that folks are personally responsible for their actions and that failure always IS an option that brings hard lessons to all involved. It doesn't help that we are at war and yet somehow living in an alternate reality of 1970'ish post-hippie political environment.
There needs to be some serious soul-searching within both senior officer and enlisted ranks about the issue of personal responsibility and standards of conduct. These standards need to be enforced from the get-go at boot camp, OCS, ROTC, and the Academy. I don't know if we can actually turn around the years of damage done through the school system(s) and the prooblems with a society that leaves teaching morals and responsibility to teachers and abrogates them at home, but we need to try.
As a forrmer LPO, I could not imagine the problems these kids have to deal with today, but still and all, there needs to be someone to stand up and say "Cowboy Up", and lead by example.
Exactly.
ReplyDeleteAnd the consequence is a perception that ALL women are unqualified, or tyrannical, or unfit.
Novel thought: Judge on merit. The end.
also...the whole "mishandling of a weapon"...seems like piling on. It was a 9mm. How often does the surface fleet get range time? If someone wants to point a finger about a mishandling of a firearm (which could be something like not having the safety on...there's nothing in any of the reports to imply negligent discharge) let's first look at what training we are giving.
ReplyDeleteAs for the rest of the allegations...I want to know more about the "hazing". What some call "hazing"others would call "military tradition" (e.g. Shellback ceremony). CDR Jones was in command for a very short timeframe, much of which was either deployed or directly engaged in no notice military force projection in Libya.
Call me a cynic, or call me someone who knows the personality of the accused, but I smell a whiner who couldn't handle high OPTEMPO and had access to a POTS line.
A lot of this just doesn't add up to me.
Are we a better Navy ? I hope we never find out how far we have slipped. The problem is at the top...Mullen and Harvey. Senior leadership is a bunch of bureacrats --- maybe they are good admininstrators, but not leaders or warfighters. I am surprised CDR Salamander has not commented on the assignment of a female, VQ NFO, as Commander Carrier Strike Group TWO -- no Tacair experience; No CV Command, No warfighting skills... Check the diversity block !
ReplyDeleteYeesh. You should see one of the other ones. Makes Charles Laughton there look like Miss America.
ReplyDeleteOK, one more point and I will stop.
ReplyDeleteCDR Jones took command I believe late summer or early fall 2010.
11 November 2010, USS Ponce leaves the seychelles.
2 March 2011 USS Ponce steams through the Suez Canal.
the seycelles are south of the equator. The Suez Canal is north of the Equator. Hazing or Tradition? I do not know the specifics of the allegations. But I now have some major questions based on my knowledge of geography.
AR,
ReplyDeleteI hope that wasn't an admonishment of juniors. If a young Marine NCO or SNCO has had three female COs, and two have been clunkers, he is more than reasonably excused when he cringes at the announcement that the NEW CO is a female. Same is true of any sailor who endured Graf.
Remember, juniors are entitled to their perceptions of us. We are not entitled to our perceptions of them. It is our job to observe and learn and know the real story with them. They have no such obligation. (Though, to the chagrin of more than a few Officers, they do so almost unerringly.)
Leadership did more than that, Lex. They insisted she do so.
ReplyDeleteBut I had heard she took her backseater with her. Good news she didn't.
Good administrators? Opinions vary.
ReplyDelete"<span>Call me a cynic, or call me someone who knows the personality of the accused, but I smell a whiner who couldn't handle high OPTEMPO and had access to a POTS line."</span>
ReplyDeleteSounds a lot like Captain Honors' situation, dunnit?
I think that Lex is right on the money in his analysis of the problem and that the Navy leadership needs to do a top to bottom review of the process by which an officer rises to command. Somewhere along the line the ideal has been lost that when one assumes command that they are being given the responsibility for the care of one of the nation's warships and her crew rather than a reward for good performance. This would involve a clear eyed investigation of the command selection process and the training of prospective commanding officers.
ReplyDeleteSome of this stuff, like collisions and groundings, is always going to happen due to mental lapses, bad judgement, and the failure of a subordinate. Being relieved for inappropriate relationships, bullying of subordinates, and DUI is inexcusable. It's no secret that these are wrong and have been for some time.
sorry...me again.
ReplyDeleteYea,
ReplyDeleteA Ensign is supposed to learn how to run a division on a ship. That can have tween 40-50 people assigned to it. He is also supposed to be taught by the CPO how to be a good and fair JO. See my comment about about how the CPO's are failing in the leadership roles just as much as the Officers. One just doesn't always have leadership potential innate in their body, it is something that needs to be learned from watching both good and bad.
no, I was referring to those making the placement decisions.
ReplyDeleteHere is "US Navy Mission"
ReplyDeleteRight curious...
<span>Huh. Would be interesting, if even possible, to do a similar search of the PLA Navy's mission, read what they deem important, and compare and contrast.
ReplyDeleteI seen the pictures, and they don't seem very diverse....</span>
(not sure where this one went)
ReplyDeleteHere is a search of "US Navy Mission"
Right Curious...
One of the best leadership development experiences for the JO I personally believe is to run a VBSS Team. You are responsible for the training, readiness, manning selection, gear maintenance and the execution of specific operations where it is just you and your team aboard someone else's ship. Sure you have Dad or Mom in your ear, but it is, by instruction, you who makes the calls.
ReplyDeleteAR, why, because she enlisted first? Did you serve with CJ onboard a ship or ashore?
ReplyDeleteAR, "as for mishandling a weapon, that seems like piling on...how often does the Navy get range time?"
ReplyDeleteWTF?!
Why was a CO even handling a weapon?! During a Security Alert, most ships assign a Sailor or two to guard the CO. If she is not comfortable or capable with a weapon, what the F was she doing with it? You have to be KIDDING ME. You do NOT point a weapon at anything you do not INTEND TO DESTROY.
Holy Cow! You spiked my BP...........
URR, NOT EVEN CLOSE.
ReplyDeleteSTOP STOP FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP. CDR Jones is not a victim here. Read the message traffic on the SIPR site. There are.......suggestions.........of other untoward behavior that resembles what got some other people relieved.
I'm going to piss off AR now, and please forgive me if it sounds personal ma'am. You cannot be above the law. CDR Jones has conducted herself as above the law on ships for as long as she has served. She has gotten away with it because of questions about her sexual orientation and people not wanting to to get mired from going after her. I will leave it at that.
Salty,
ReplyDeleteRelax, take a breath, move away from the keyboard..... We will all come out of this okay....
My point is this, Salty. The paradigm of multiple channels for complaining to senior and even flag officers has been well established, along with the readily listening ear.
Not only that, but that the XO or CMC (SgtMaj) is expected to actively tattle behind the CO's back.
I read some of the stuff on CDR Jones. Why, after Graf, would it surprise you that she would have been protected because she was a female? And in today's climate, even more so by being a lesbian? I would be a tad surprised if it had been otherwise.
Do you like me again, Salty? ;)
Skippy, Especially agree with with the "...do it all on television" comment. Back in the day COs were generally fired quietly unless something spectacular (think BELKNAP/JFK) occurred and somebody died. Even in a lot of those cases, like the LEAHY grounding, the CO was removed quietly, the word got around the waterfront, and the incident was used as a case study at PCO school. Even in "inappropriate relationships" this was the case unless the violation was especially blatant, the CO's relief was "accelerated" and little was heard about it outside of the E-Ring grapevine. I had a former CO who was relieved as CO of a major WESTPAC shore command for that reason in the late '70s. He returned to a series of DC jobs until he retired at 30.
ReplyDeleteTestosterone =The Wolrd's Most Destructive Drug
ReplyDeleteEstrogen is an accelerant...
ReplyDeleteSilly Marine, estrogen isn't an accelerant, it's a catylist :)
ReplyDeleteNo, no Byron! A catalyst is necessary for the reaction. Testosterone causes much stupidity all on its own.
ReplyDeleteBut when mixed with estrogen, it is like hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate. Testosterone mixed with estrogen leads to bigger, faster, much more dramatic stupidity.
You're absolutely right, Skippy-san. At a recent visit to one of the Norfolk commands, ADM Harvey seemed almost proud of his role in the recent firings. Our people have been placed in a very tough leadership environment, and all these firings are obviously an effort to create a climate of fear as a means of keeping people in line.
ReplyDeleteI am being generous....the point is they aint leaders
ReplyDelete<span>ANCHOR UP OFFICERS!!!!</span>
ReplyDeletePictures of Mike Murphy start showing up earlier than that. Not sure I agree that your definition of "battlemindedness" encompasses everything that I think it should.
ReplyDeleteSee if you can find references to the "Hepburn Report" Ben.
ReplyDeleteOh...
ReplyDeleteAnd what Nimitz had to say about events in the lste summer of '42.
Not sure I agree that your definition of "battlemindedness" encompasses everything that I think it should.
ReplyDeleteFirst off...Please tell me what "my" definition is, and what is lacking.
(guess I'm "ignorant" on that score too)
And what else it should encompass?