tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post8374790427460979808..comments2024-01-03T05:18:54.650-05:00Comments on CDR Salamander: Diversity ThursdayCDR Salamanderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05981221786954902349noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-32844461379360303502011-10-16T12:00:44.036-04:002011-10-16T12:00:44.036-04:00Bistro,
Your comment about the unwritten rule rin...Bistro,<br /> Your comment about the unwritten rule rings pretty true to me. And you know, I am kinda OK with "do what you must, just get the mission done". Things get morally murky when bullets fly...I get that. Short-cutting a bureaucracy to get needed support...I get that too. In the war zone, pretty much do what ya gotta do. (The are limits though...complete lack of moral standards leads to war crimes and atrocities.)<br /><br /> Unfortunately, seems like some folks don't know when to turn it off. And when the mission is no longer "put the ordnance on target" or "take that hill" and it becomes "plan that Marine Corps Ball" or "keep your trucks in running order" the same moral standards apply. It's pretty simple to me..."dude, when we're working on the same misson, same project, don't freaking lie to me to my face".<br /><br /> I also totally concur it's about your network and who you know when you get hired...having said that, let's stop paying lip service to a system we don't use...just be honest about what we're doing.<br /><br /> USMC (and other DoD) seems to want to have it both ways. They want to hold a moral and ethical high ground, so they claim they are following the strict sets of rules they set for themselves. But they have a mission to perform, so they blow off those rules. The hypocrisy (as any first-year law student would tell you) is breathtaking. If they'd just drop that "Honor, Courage Commitment" thing, I'd have no quibble with their actions.<br /><br /> It's also kinda fun to see what URR and Byron think my work history. Heck, they even think I'm a dude...but they don't *know* that...Chris G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-81843149452801350092011-10-16T11:46:42.365-04:002011-10-16T11:46:42.365-04:00Chris,
No no. You tangled with the front porch ma...Chris,<br /><br />No no. You tangled with the front porch mafia. They are a disease and so stuffed with self importance that they rivel Rigel. They tolerate the tiniest criticism much the way Stalin did. This is Sal's place and no, absolutely no dissent is tolerated here.<br /><br />It's funny. They all see themselves as high experts in refuting a contrary position but every single time they go for the ad hominem. It's like they can't help themselves. Slaves to the candle, lickspittles, whatever, you will know them even in the dark.<br /><br />The point you raised is not unique to the Marine Corps and it is not really what I would say is wrong with any of the branches of DOD. Some people regard truthiness and morality as an all or nothing proposition and think that stated goals/objectives outweigh everyday criteria for getting the MISSION done or SUPPORTING the families. I tend to focus on results and if that bends the rules like a pretzel, well, I like pretzels. In 28 years I never gave a thought to what any civilian employee thought with one exception. PMW 182. Great man.Bistronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-44199297751747385582011-10-16T11:23:18.094-04:002011-10-16T11:23:18.094-04:00Chris, I got a kick out of the way you wrote that ...Chris, I got a kick out of the way you wrote that sentence above, "..found out about priest molesting kids." Darn those kids! :) <br /><br />There is a rulebook, been around for ages and ages. There is no moral failing in any leader who puts winning and bringing all of his or her people back alive first. Garrison types simply don't understand that kind of thinking. We really really feel their pain as we lie to them, cheat them and steal from them when they fail to support the mission. Honestly, we feel really awful.<br /><br />Government jobs and thus Marine civilian/support contractor jobs are largely driven by networks. If you naively believe that your resume and SF176 dropped off at the local government hiring HR office ever sees the light of day, think again. It boils down to who you know on the inside.<br /><br />Seriously, command climates, EO surveys? Who ever got fired over one of those? Nobody at all in the whole wide world cares until the fecal matter hits the rotary impeller at the IG or Senate hotline. PRT nonsense? That's a CO failure unfortunately. Me, I'd boil it down. For the ground pounders it's "on rucksacks" 50 mile hike. Since the navy hasn't built any 25 mile long warships, and sailors don't carry rucksacks or march/run it always defied common sense to me to impose a running standard. I believe that there is serious fracking stupidity in applying pointless, meaningless rules and regulations. You'd almost think that only the side that didn't have or tolerate beards could win WWII at sea. Ditto long hair. Only losers have long hair, well, other than SEALS. They got the long hairs, beards and shades of true professionals......right?Bistronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-78858016040449062422011-10-16T09:56:14.599-04:002011-10-16T09:56:14.599-04:00Let me get this straight...you found a few bad app...Let me get this straight...you found a few bad apples in a train load of apples and now issue a blanket condemnation of the entire Corps. Brilliant. You logic is inescapable. We bow to your intelligence and moral indignation.<br /><br />Now that I'm done stretching the truth beyond the breaking point, I'll tell you the truth. You're a miserable little man, incapable of accepting the responsibility of being a Marine and since you can never rise to that level, you choose instead to sling slurs upon the entire Marine Corps. Go ahead and continue with your whining little snits. Your words mean less than nothing and the sound coming from your pie hole is that of a little boy who won't get the shiny toy for Christmas. Go away now, for we now ignore you. We are done with you little troll, and wish no longer to deal with you.Byronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-43993514847320710542011-10-15T22:57:57.525-04:002011-10-15T22:57:57.525-04:00Where did you work exactly?
And what do you defin...Where did you work exactly?<br /><br />And what do you define as moral courage? Just a question as most marines i've known have been honest hard working men who lived their lived honorably and i was honored to call friends.<br /><br />In fact i've known alot of people like that i seem to atract and be atracted more to them than the other side. Or maybe its the other side is rarer i guess.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-67548314558765398432011-10-15T20:30:44.607-04:002011-10-15T20:30:44.607-04:00Well, Chris G, you sure told me. Except that ad h...Well, Chris G, you sure told me. Except that <i>ad hominem</i> attacks are considered those that point to an unrelated trait as a reason for attacking the logic or quality of an argument or position. Such as if you were short. Or tall. Or left-handed. However, your personal actions, integrity, courage, service, and judgment are perfectly germane to the argument when criticising those things in others, particularly Marines who have been places and done things you have not. <br /><br />Time for your big boy diapers there, son. The offer stands. Go visit Helmand or some other place and try your hand, since you consider yourself of sterner stuff.UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-768051138242498222011-10-15T10:53:09.038-04:002011-10-15T10:53:09.038-04:00URR, looks like agree there are moral/ethical fail...URR, looks like agree there are moral/ethical failings in the USMC; we just disagree about the extent and magnitude. Seems resonable. Looks like you apparently *do* let battlefield bravery excuse moral shortcomings. OK; reasonable minds can differ.<br /><br />As far as your ad hominem attacks go ("<span>an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.") I've seen plenty from you. ("little consequence, less value, resentful, envious"...and that was just the last post). OK...this seems to be your M.O. on these threads where reasonable people with good intentions disagree with one another.</span><br /><br />Rather than bring out facts or logic, you attack the disssenter and sarcastically dismiss their arguments. You are almost like a liberal in your disdain for facts...like garlic to a vampire!<br /><br />I suspect you are like a lifelong Catholic who just found out about priest molesting kids, and can't bear the thought of someone attacking their beloved church. It's clear you love the USMC, but you seem to be blinded to its faults. It's not healthy for an organization to circle the wagons and ignore criticism...regrettably we see a lot of that documented in Sal's posts.<br /><br />Hopefully the USMC redoubles its efforts to live up to its reputation and core values. <br /><br />I'll also stipulate that I'm a dirtbag, an idiot, a liar, a coward...heck I'll stipulate I'm gay, a woman, a Democrat, a politician, or whatever other chaff might get thrown up to distract readers from facts. So if you're going to reply to this with another attack, I've saved you the trouble.<br /><br />Cheers!Chris G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-34594856151683248272011-10-15T06:50:32.893-04:002011-10-15T06:50:32.893-04:00Of course you'll live. Better men than yourse...Of course you'll live. Better men than yourself will protect you. Your heroism consists of typing your criticisms into a little box in the safety and comfort of your home. Where do we find such men?<br /><br />Do what the boss says or what the mission requires? Yeah, we do. It is a Marine thing. Something you will never understand. It includes exposing oneself and one's Marines to mortal danger, sometimes near-certain death. Crossing the sea wall at Tarawa, advancing in the wheatfield at Belleau Wood, breaching fortified buildings in Ramadi and Fallujah. Places like that tend to be a lot less comfortable and a lot more dangerous than your office building. <br /><br />Oh, and learn what "ad hominem" means. Of course there are Marines, Officers included, who lack integrity. No person or organization is perfect. But I would take just about any of them over you. You are a resentful and envious little person. You haven't the guts to endure what they have to become Marines and bear the responsibilities that come with leadership, nor have you the personal courage to risk your comfort, safety, or well-being for anyone or anything other than yourself. You may continue your screed against the Marine Corps, but you are someone of little consequence and even less inherent value when compared to those whom you disparage. UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-20762736185950400242011-10-15T00:24:27.630-04:002011-10-15T00:24:27.630-04:00Ad hominem attack...sounds like the tired old &quo...Ad hominem attack...sounds like the tired old "it's a black thing...you wouldn't understand". No repsonse to my specific examples of moral/ethical failure by USMC senior NCO's and officers. Are the facts bothering you?<br /><br />The fact is, I worked alongside many Marines who were ethically lacking. Of course I didn't work alongside all 6500 Marine officers, but the 40? 50? 60? billets I dealt with regularly for 3 years (and 200 or so I dealt with on a less frequent basis), so say ~150 or so Marine officers I *did* work with and personally observe, I saw very little moral courage.<br /><br />75% were liars.<br /><br />I suppose it's possible that coincidentally the *only* 100 or so Marine officers who are liars and ethical failures happened to be stationed with me, and the rest of the USMC is lily-white. Possible, but not likely. I think I saw a representative sample. I saw an organization the tolerated (encouraged?) moral failure, lying, and misrepresentation. I think that is representative.<br /><br />You named 5 guys who did good things...bully for them. Have you *never* seen a Marine officer who was a liar or moral failure? That's a straight honest question to you.<br /><br /> Another straight honest question for you...does battlefiled courage excuse moral failings? I think the USMC ethos is "it does". I don't agree...do you?<br /><br />Maybe something changes in a Marine when he/she goes to a shore/HQ billet...maybe they check their 'nads in the war zone. Either way, the Corps needs to work on their ethics.<br /><br />I am happy to hear of Marines being fired for poor performance. It should happen more often...take a lesson from the Navy. Firings tend to focus the attention of the non-performers.<br /><br />And oh yeah, I was not a gov't employe working with Marines...like I said, you have to be a former Marine to get hired by them (my frist sentence in this thread). I wore the digi-cammies for 3 years. But I missed out on TBS, so I'll never have my buddies manipulate the GS hiring system to get me a sinecure.<br /><br />I think I'll live.<br /><br />Finally, I have a theory...Marines are big on doing what the boss says, no matter how stupid or reckless. If the boss wants it, it's the mission. And the improtant part of this is, if it's done to support the mission, then it's OK. So lying to support the mission isn't really lying. If you buy that logic, then there aren't many Marine liars. Problem is, I don't buy the logic...and neither, apparently, do the JO's who wrote the article we're commenting on.<br /><br />Remember...stay focused...I asked 2 questions in my post.<br /><br />Cheers!Chris G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-80325501856234180192011-10-14T23:30:06.423-04:002011-10-14T23:30:06.423-04:00So... you are not a Marine. Never served in the ...So... you are not a Marine. Never served in the Marines. Your "exposure" to the Marine Corps is in the capacity of a civilian employee? And in that capacity you have seen enough of a representative sample to judge all 6,500 Marine Officers?<br /><br />Since you (and apparently your wife) are eminently qualified to make such judgments about Marine Officers, particularly at the Colonel rank, how is it that you explain John Ripley? Joe Dunford? Jim Conway? Paul Kennedy? Larry Nicholson?<br /><br />Never knew a Marine to fire another Marine? Are you kidding? You definitely need to get out more. Any Marine Officer who has been in longer than a few months has known of a Marine being fired. Hell, Paul van Riper fired his own brother as chief of staff. Tough to square that circle with what you claim.<br /><br />You obviously work at some senior staff/HQ element. And you see fit to extrapolate all these awful things you claim to have seen into a blanket understanding of Marine leadership. Fascinating. Yet, you have never worn the uniform of a Marine. Never gone to the field with them, gone to war with them, had to put your life in their hands, and had their lives in yours. <br /><br />Not terribly impressive. Not at all. DMV employees? Perhaps you could spend some time in Helmand or in Anbar checking vehicle registrations alongside them.<br /><br />But I am sure you can find a thousand reasons why you shouldn't have to.UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-65658312191918717212011-10-14T21:44:35.051-04:002011-10-14T21:44:35.051-04:00I should further mention that I qualified my battl...I should further mention that I qualified my battlefield bravery comment with a "maybe"...based on lack of moral courage, I suspect not all these Marines exhibited battlefield courage.<br /><br />I should also mention I was impressed, for the most part, with two Marine JO's who worked for me. One of them had some issues with telling the whole truth, but delivered excellent product. The other was a real pleasure to work with...gutsy, smart, honest, resourceful...but he'll be lucky to make O-4, since he's not a butt-kisser. Ex-enlisted...he'll punch at 20 and go out into the real world and do great things.Chris G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-77679451003133944542011-10-14T21:39:05.789-04:002011-10-14T21:39:05.789-04:00Correction to my last...the dirtbag GS-13/retired ...Correction to my last...the dirtbag GS-13/retired Marine O-5 (and Purple Heart awardee...just like that dude from Massachusetts) wasn't fired. I forgot I never saw a Marine with the guts to fire another Marine. He was asked to resign by the base CO, which he did. For the four years prior, all this guy's bosses said, as they went out the door, "gee, I really regret I didn't do enough to get rid of him". Real gutsy...Semper Fi.<br /><br />He had held his position for ~7 years (4 or so changes-of-command for the Station) so that led my wife to comment "Oh, I guess 1 in 5 Marine O-6's has a pair of nuts."Chris G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-45974176240776123872011-10-14T21:33:59.247-04:002011-10-14T21:33:59.247-04:00URR, I was not a Marine, I worked for them. (And s...URR, I was not a Marine, I worked for them. (And some of them worked for me.) I was extremely disappointed at the ethical failures I saw on a near-daily basis. Lying, cheating...the norm. Very sad. The veneer (that Marines were professionals) was pierced for me, that's for sure. Marines struck me as DMV employees, just more fit.<br /><br /> And courage under fire is important. But it doesn't give you a free pass to be an utter ethical failure in the rest of your professional life...at least that's my thought. Do you differ?<br /><br /> My criteria for evaluating Marine officers? Specifically on ethics...do you lie? Do you cheat? Do you hide infomation? Do you tell the boss what he wants to hear, what will get you promoted, vice what he neds to hear? Do you game the gov't hiring system to hire your friends, vice a more-qualified individual?<br /><br /> Pretty much my same criteria for evaluating any other professional.<br /><br /> Wanna hear about the Marine E-8 who bullied a Marine E-5 into gundecking his PRT? How about the retired Marine O-5 (GS-13 hire) who was fired for falsifying a command climate survey? How about the active Marine O-5 who refused to correct the record and report accurate (but not-so-flattering) information about his unit?<br /><br /> Should I ignore all that because maybe these guys exhibited battlefield bravery?Chris G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-79876674709437098362011-10-14T21:06:12.670-04:002011-10-14T21:06:12.670-04:00And I take it from your words above that, aside fr...And I take it from your words above that, aside from battlefield courage, you don't think Marines are very good.<br /><br />I can't begin to tell you how that breaks my heart. I mean, courage under fire is such a trivial thing in evaluating the quality of military leadership. I am dying to hear your other criteria for evaluating Marine Officers.UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-12001893374258395452011-10-14T20:38:12.963-04:002011-10-14T20:38:12.963-04:00So Chris G, did you work for the Marines or were y...So Chris G, did you work for the Marines or were you a Marine? UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-58745111789203080432011-10-14T16:56:03.187-04:002011-10-14T16:56:03.187-04:00So it finaly makes sense why there are no Marine P...So it finaly makes sense why there are no Marine Presidents now. The truth hurts and rarely gets you elected.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-29156784070255370032011-10-14T11:48:04.989-04:002011-10-14T11:48:04.989-04:00I have the tune "Burning down the house"...I have the tune "Burning down the house" dancing in about in the background of my brain as I read this. Sounds like they have to destoy (the current non-)system to save it. God speed to them!xformednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-72842803524328158312011-10-14T00:32:55.056-04:002011-10-14T00:32:55.056-04:00Correction to my last...make that "just those...Correction to my last...make that "just those two times".Chris G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-19218615822873302432011-10-14T00:32:00.545-04:002011-10-14T00:32:00.545-04:00<span>"preferential hiring of former se...<span>"preferential hiring of former senior Marines"...</span><br /><br />Yep. Sounds like the USMC I worked for, for 3 years. Honor? Nope. Courage? Maybe on the battlefield. Commitment? Yep...commitment to getting hired on as a GS-13 since you were basically unhireable in the private sector. And commitment to kissing the boss's butt so you could get your next promotion.<br /><br />Funny how URR hasn't commented much on this post...just that once...maybe he knows the real truth about USMC officers.Chris G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-43422550598725262042011-10-13T22:20:45.572-04:002011-10-13T22:20:45.572-04:00Heh, the OSO was actually joking about that at the...Heh, the OSO was actually joking about that at the time, "unless you want to claim you're really a woman, since it seems like that'll be okay any day now". The thought police must not have been in range.WCOGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-24775526753486162042011-10-13T22:10:23.820-04:002011-10-13T22:10:23.820-04:00Don't forget that this is going to impact Mari...Don't forget that this is going to impact Marine Enlisted. Skilled marines in fields like Intel or Linguistics are valuable assets. That experience and training can be used as officers but is somewhat less likely. If skilled Black Enlisted are directed to become Officers, those MOS fields are going to be put under more strain.<br /><br />There are only so many skills in a given community. With a group that has so many social problems as the US Black community (I know Nigerian guys who openly look down on US Blacks), skilled people are very few and in high demand. If you attract them to one field, other fields are going to have shortages. In the current political climate, you cannot reach the desired ethnic ratio without lowering standards because the skilled people you are looking for <b>do not exist in the numbers you need</b>. <br /><br />As valuable as officers are, keeping skilled Enlisted in key fields is essential. I know one Marine who chose to go officer in a Combat Arm. His Enlisted training was in Linguistics. While the core of the Marine Corps is combat, the skilled support personnel must not be shunted into a less productive use of their talents and training.ivan0026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-68340399605133655852011-10-13T21:56:26.051-04:002011-10-13T21:56:26.051-04:00Good Marines doing what they do:
Identify a proble...Good Marines doing what they do:<br />Identify a problem, come up with solutions to the problem and take action to fix the problem.<br /><br />In this case, it requires an end run around obstacles and PC run amok.<br /><br />I fear for their careers, but they obviously love their Corps more than thair jobs.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-21488170575772338372011-10-13T16:28:31.254-04:002011-10-13T16:28:31.254-04:00You could have shown up in drag and asked to be ac...You could have shown up in drag and asked to be <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/1/28/transgender-individuals-military-rotc/" rel="nofollow">accessed as a gender-challenged minority</a>. UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-39783904766846689152011-10-13T14:09:39.470-04:002011-10-13T14:09:39.470-04:00Hold on there! Most of the above has been true th...Hold on there! Most of the above has been true the almost 30 years I've been in this job. The "mission", paperwork, review levels, micromangement, burgeoning volumes of reports, etc. has changed little during that time. There are a lot of injustices in the system and it always seems to take 1 step forward and 2 steps back with every change. However, I'm an OSO civilian and some (small) heartburn with the comments about me and my peers. We are not in charge of the offices, but can certainly guide the OSO through some of the burgeoning BS and sheer nonsense they encounter in their duties. Considering the complexity of the system, I'd say that was an advantage. On the other hand, I would say that hiring former Marines (don't advise 8412's for several reasons) or wounded warriors as permanent assistants is an excellent idea! cat4zulunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-29788156822870211012011-10-13T12:57:28.504-04:002011-10-13T12:57:28.504-04:00<span>What is fascinating about this is that...<span>What is fascinating about this is that traditionally, CMC personally approves all Marine Officer recruiters.</span>Boat School Gradnoreply@blogger.com