tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post3926272130364979033..comments2024-01-03T05:18:54.650-05:00Comments on CDR Salamander: Diversity ThursdayCDR Salamanderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05981221786954902349noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-35506980930850429682010-06-12T00:24:47.000-04:002010-06-12T00:24:47.000-04:00There's really no excuse for getting pregnant ...There's really no excuse for getting pregnant whilst on sea duty. The pregnant women should be transferred out of the sea going command, and given adverse FITREP/EVAL as their behaviors place their personal interests above the mission. <br /><br />There shouldn't be a man and woman having sex in the same unit, if there are.... one needs transferred out. In a previous command where dating/sex was an issue, we held the senior one responsible for the poor judgement, and transferred the one that was more easily replaceable / had less impact on readiness out of the command. Actions have consequences, man, woman, gay, straight, black, white. If the consequences are known up front it's much easier to enforce them. EO doesn't mean people's inadequate or substandard performance should be in any way ignored.<br /><br />The CO did a nice job.Combat NFOnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-77500357841535684522010-06-11T23:49:28.000-04:002010-06-11T23:49:28.000-04:00I'm not saying eliminate dual service couples-...I'm not saying eliminate dual service couples-I'm saying stop treating them with preference. Do away with quaranteed co-location detailing, for example. Each Sailor goes where the needs of the service require. If they can live together great-but stop screwing over people who marry outside the Navy to accomdate the dual service couple.<br /><br />Plus-co-location and other regulations feed on the pregancy monster-because the rules tend to be at cross purposes. Had a female AZ who got pregnant just as her husband was due to roll to shore duty. Don't tell me there are no folks gaming the system.<br /><br />And finally-as Phib pointed out, for a dual service marriage to work, the couple has to decided to make one person's career take a back seat. If both try to be sucessful Naval Officers they will be lonely and or childless.<br /><br />I'd also point out that a high percentage of these marriages involve fraternization-but the basis for fraternization goes away once they get married. (E.G. a Master Chief Petty Officer married to a YN3-true story).<br /><br />There are plenty of men who try the mil-spouse thing. In my experience it generally does not work out well. There is an order to the universe after all. >:oSkippy-sannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-65943554884945961852010-06-11T23:13:33.000-04:002010-06-11T23:13:33.000-04:00Anon, do you have any logic based arguments to mak...Anon, do you have any logic based arguments to make? Sniping from the sidelines is for those who can't form a logical argument.sobersubmrnrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-76330319188456387582010-06-11T23:10:30.000-04:002010-06-11T23:10:30.000-04:00Bravo Zulu, Delta Bravo. You made a lot of good po...Bravo Zulu, Delta Bravo. You made a lot of good points.sobersubmrnrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-55129605931475583792010-06-11T23:04:35.000-04:002010-06-11T23:04:35.000-04:00Cut the crap, Haner. Go blow your PC smoke up some...Cut the crap, Haner. Go blow your PC smoke up someone else's butt. I've seen the screwing around that goes on in the surface navy, which is why I am so vehemently opposed to women on submarines, at sea and in combat units in general. The line of women outside medical wanting pregnancy tests just before deployment, the ones that get pregnant on deployment, the pregnant women all through the shore commands, the screwing around that occurs on board ship...don't tell me that doesn't happen a lot, I've broken up some of it....and in the barracks ashore. Nice try.sobersubmrnrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-80234328270818059242010-06-11T18:32:52.000-04:002010-06-11T18:32:52.000-04:00Did he say it tongue in cheek? ;)Did he say it tongue in cheek? ;)LT Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-33279677024233690942010-06-11T18:09:56.000-04:002010-06-11T18:09:56.000-04:00If by "punished" you mean stepping up an...If by "punished" you mean stepping up and doing your job like everyone else, then it is indeed part of the bargain. <br /><br />Basic human rights? Is that like health care being a basic human right? One you get to have that others pay for?<br /><br />"...among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."<br /><br />Not happy that the Navy takes you away from your family? Get out at the end of your enlistment/obligated service. Because the Navy takes everyone away from their families. And it isn't fair that some father has to pump twice so you can have a baby. <br /><br />No, my biological clock isn't ticking. Yours apparently is. Why should that make a difference to how you should be treated with respect to your fellow sailors?UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-87788875949410947172010-06-11T18:06:06.000-04:002010-06-11T18:06:06.000-04:00I know I can always count on a Marine to come up w...I know I can always count on a Marine to come up with an "outside the box" solution... Grumpy Old Hamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-50338702918016218062010-06-11T17:42:05.000-04:002010-06-11T17:42:05.000-04:00I wouldn't say your post doesn't belong in...I wouldn't say your post doesn't belong in this thread. I would say arguments that it's a pro-life or Catholic issue don't belong in this particular argument. (Birth control issues aside, I'm sure all the other religions also teach that fornication and adultery are not in keeping with true human dignity and put people into undesirable situations.) The right to procreate is one the government cannot take away, and should not. But those old enough to create new life should also recognize the awesome responsibility that goes with it. And I sense from your posts that you are like so many of us women who have a deep longing for motherhood. I think the issue is that on a practical level it is fundamentally incompatible to fulfill that while being a sailor subject to deployments, or many other military specialties, to be honest. I can't answer your question about page 13. I can just say the diversity people aren't doing women a favor by dangling the possibility of a full-time Naval career to women who often inevitably have to choose one path or the other. And the time to make an informed choice is before she lifts her hand and takes the oath. Is it fair to spend all the time and finite resources training someone who will be in and get out in 5 years with a baby or spend it on someone who will put in 20? Is there a better way for the Navy to handle the many thousands of talented and intelligent women who want to serve their country respecting their biological imperatives as well? Probably. The current numbers-only power-point driven, diversity mentoring brigade doesn't seem to have found an intelligent balance. Please don't go away. More female perspective makes for a better conversation. DeltaBravonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-61682038790705825982010-06-11T17:11:41.000-04:002010-06-11T17:11:41.000-04:00DeltaBravo, you may be correct in saying my posts ...DeltaBravo, you may be correct in saying my posts do not belong in this thread. I may have misunderstood the original post. Was I mistaken in my thoughts that the page 13 applied in a non-deployed status as well? Because as I said in another comment, I couldn't agree more that getting pregnant while out at sea is inappropriate.Hanernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-20377877888149019272010-06-11T16:49:18.000-04:002010-06-11T16:49:18.000-04:00DB, that is the most eloquent and common-sense sum...DB, that is the most eloquent and common-sense summation of the issue I have ever heard. I thank you for putting it here.UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-75122278386564381292010-06-11T16:22:36.000-04:002010-06-11T16:22:36.000-04:00And I will say the USN has a wonderful civlian per...And I will say the USN has a wonderful civlian personnel command for those who don't want to go to sea but want a career that will enable them to have a family. There are many opportunities for bright motivated women to have wonderful careers serving their country and the Navy in that capacity. And it doesn't require leaving their unit short-handed so they can have a baby.DeltaBravonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-1591031220976732962010-06-11T16:18:12.000-04:002010-06-11T16:18:12.000-04:00Post 30 difficulty is a fact, not hyperbole. Biol...Post 30 difficulty is a fact, not hyperbole. Biological fact. Post 35 is even more of a challenge. We do not talk about such facts because they are difficult. Ignoring facts is immature. Displaying intellectual cowardice, and immaturity is no way for a professional to act - but we see it every day from Admiral "TFLW" Roughead on down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-54147994955930171372010-06-11T16:16:44.000-04:002010-06-11T16:16:44.000-04:00As for women and their biological clocks... well, ...As for women and their biological clocks... well, they do need to be told going in that they have a decision to make. How important is that career ladder? They will have to make a serious trade-off. I've known women who have... who waited to marry or who delayed getting pregnant until their commitment was almost over. And they didn't re-up. Because the FULL-TIME responsibility of another human being was now the career that most needed her attention.<br /><br />As for assuming men make no such sacrifices, I say hogwash! I know men who never found the right girl because their careers and being bachelors pulling weekend and holiday duty on ships being SLEPped in NotSoNiceCity and time underway prevented them from the time and ability to court a nice woman and marry her. By the time they're out of the Navy, all the ones their age are taken and it's not as easy to find a wife. Not being willing to father children out of wedlock, those men pay a steep price for service to their country.<br /><br />It's not just a woman thing. <br /><br />Joining the Navy is about fighting wars and keeping the sea lanes open... not career advancement and free medical care. The wives and fiancees back on shore don't need to worry that the women on the ship are making a play for their men. This captain seems to understand that pregnancy isn't the only threat to good order and discipline that will affect his crew. Men going through messy divorces get distracted and it affects their work. And it brings high school drama into a place that doesn't need one ounce more drama than it already has, being a life-and-death environment in and of itself. <br /><br />People know how to prevent pregnancy. Many birth control methods fail. I've held many babies as their mommies tell me what method failed them and gave them a bundle of joy. Sneer at abstinence all you want, but it is reliable. And people are capable of behaving less like animals in heat and more like human beings if they WANT to. They just have to be willing. I suspect the first order effect of this CO's mandate is to rid his ship of those who really weren't serious about being in the Navy after all. It's not a jobs program for bored little girls trolling for a man. It's not a career ladder for the kind of woman who really wants to do the mommy thing. Only the rarest woman can do that and she will need a husband as totally committed to her and the child as possible, willing to make his own set of employment sacrifices. <br /><br />So your argument is mixing apples and oranges and ignoring the Navy's real mission, which is not an EO adventure. It's to go into harm's way and make things go boom.DeltaBravonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-39138777044834789762010-06-11T16:00:12.000-04:002010-06-11T16:00:12.000-04:00Haner, as a female, Catholic and pro-life, I sugge...Haner, as a female, Catholic and pro-life, I suggest those arguments don't really belong in this thread. Women have been sold a lot of garbage that they can have it all. Well, they can, just not at the same time. It isn't just the life of her child a sailor should be thinking of, but its lifetime after birth. Pregnancy is a temporary condition. Like a broken leg. What does she do with the baby AFTER it's born and it's time to deploy. If someone's career is so valuable to her or her baby so invaluable that it's even a choice... well, there's not much I can say about that. I know the really devout Catholics are fully aware that there are birth spacing options that don't involve violating Church teaching. And those who would fornicate or commit adultery while underway probably dont' care about Catholic teaching on BC anyway. Or it's not at the top of their priority list. That issue is a non-starter. And it really only applies to the women who are in billets that get them deployed underway.<br /><br />This isn't just about pregnancy... it's about responsible behavior and decisions from a segment of society, our young women, who have forgotten what our mothers knew: That when women behave, men are forced to behave also. And the woman always sets the tone. She can say no. And mean it. Anything beyond that is rape. Real rape. And it's a crime.<br />A ship underway or a liberty port with a stranger or a shipmate is not the time and place any responsible person starts her family.<br /><br />All other things taken into account, a warship underway is NOT a woman's environment in most cases. (Think so? Then carry your unconscious shipmate up the ladder and out of the fire zone). Only the most blind refuse to see that. I don't know where you, Haner, think all these lovely rose petal conceptions take place at sea... but I'm betting it's not the Captain's stateroom. Sobersubmrnr is probably closer to the truth than you want to admit. There is nothing beautiful or romantic about it, although that might ruin the fantasy for some lovelorn little girls at sea. In fact, the CO's edict may keep some from preying on the girl he's near when he can't be near the girl he loves. DeltaBravonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-53288614515690900432010-06-11T15:32:11.000-04:002010-06-11T15:32:11.000-04:00<span>That was fortunate for them. My mother...<span>That was fortunate for them. My mother was 32 when my sister was born with mosaic trisomy 22. I had a consultation with a geneticist a little less than a month ago and was told that seeing how I already have a special sister, my chances of having children with chromosomal abnormality jumps 10 fold as I reach and pass 30. Just because your friends may not have encountered a certain issue does not mean that for others they do not exist. </span>Hanernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-8570918273758610732010-06-11T15:18:07.000-04:002010-06-11T15:18:07.000-04:00<span>Sobersubmrnr,</span>
<span>...<span>Sobersubmrnr,</span><br /><span> </span><br /><span>I'm amazed you can speak for all career minded women. Where do you get your information from exactly? Seeing how you're already a submariner, I'm assuming you yourself are not a woman? </span><br /><span> </span><br /><span>And also, "frat and shagging in the gear lockers" --wow. It's really base and nasty you think that’s how sea-duty Sailors get pregnant. I assure you I am not of that quality nor the women I know. How you could make such a generalization of women in the Navy seems to speak of how you YOURSELF feel about this situation on a personal, not professional, basis. </span><br /><span> </span><br /><span>It’s funny, I JUST wrote a story about how the Navy has lead the way for equality for women in the work place, but this debacle is starting to make me rethink things. </span>Hanernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-11141854902129805392010-06-11T14:56:05.000-04:002010-06-11T14:56:05.000-04:00The ones that place their career first will go get...The ones that place their career first will go get abortions anyway, no matter the policy. The ones that aren't won't. Getting an abortion means going right back to sea. Meanwhile, we still have frat and shagging in the gear lockers. Make those points to the right people in the pro-life camp and it won't be much of an issue.sobersubmrnrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-72990705881926691252010-06-11T14:52:21.000-04:002010-06-11T14:52:21.000-04:00Part II
<span> </span>
<span> &...Part II<br /><br /><span> </span><br /><span> </span><br /><span>I’m looking forward to seeing what pro-lifers make out of this once news gets out (and it will, as my friend will be writing the press release on this as soon as its determine which ship it is). Look at it from their point of view: a Sailor will have to choose between the life of her child and her career. Contraceptives don’t always work. It will all but force career minded women to have an abortion if they do not want to face the consequences and ruin their opportunities in the future. We’ll make this a good go-Joe-Navy story, but as soon as this hits the press, I doubt they’ll be any way of containing it. <span> </span></span><br /><p><span><span><span> </span><span> </span></span></span><br /></p><p><span>And think too of Catholics too, who aren’t supposed to use contraceptives at all. Where does this place them? <span> </span></span><span></span></p>Hanernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-60108312876078592652010-06-11T14:52:07.000-04:002010-06-11T14:52:07.000-04:00<span>If being punished and possibly separat...<span>If being punished and possibly separated for having a family was a part of the bargain, then you can be assured it would have been considered. However, that was not the case.</span><br /><span> </span><br /><span>How much should my shipmates have to sacrifice for my basic human rights? That's laughable. </span><br /><span> </span><br /><span>And on board a ship - if you're saying Sailors shouldn't get pregnant while they're underway and deployed then I completely agree with you. Your ship is on a mission and has objectives; this is an entirely inappropriate to get pregnant. THAT I agree with. However, if you're in port or in the yards, it is up to a Sailors digression to start a family or not. It's certainly more ideal to have children on shore duty, but not everyone can wait. Which is my point. If starting a family is banned while on sea-duty (not just a deployed status), that should be something the Sailor should expect from the get go, not placed on them after they get to a command and can no longer consider if this is the right choice for them. We all join for different reasons, for some people it's SO they can have a family. </span><br /><span> </span><br /><span>And since the tables can’t really be turned as you can never bear children or understand what it’s like to have a ticking clock inside of you, lets reach out for a second. What if the military told you you couldn’t have sex. This is a stretch, I know, but to me motherhood is not only important ideologically, but it’s also a biological drive too. That’s why we can compare the two. If you had to sign a page 13 saying you would be celibate for the next 5 years, or face penalty, think about what your gut reaction would be. Again, I know it’s a stretch, but I doubt you’d be singing the same tune you are now.</span><br /><span><span></span></span><span></span>Hanernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-51734415914946392332010-06-11T14:49:31.000-04:002010-06-11T14:49:31.000-04:00Haner,
Having kids at age 30 is more difficult an...Haner,<br /><br />Having kids at age 30 is more difficult and carries more risk? Marginally for some...but for most, none. 40 is the risk tipping point for most. I can personally attest that a few more years brings MUCH better financial security and a better perspective on parenting.<br /><br />While in the military, whether male or female, if your FIRST priority is to have / raise kids, then don't be surprised if your career suffers. Procreation may be a "right", but a long and successful career isn't. Decisions have to be made in life, and there are benefits and consequences. Regardless of what you've heard or read, you CANNOT have it all.GBSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-53163518224756802322010-06-11T14:36:40.000-04:002010-06-11T14:36:40.000-04:00More difficult at 30? Sacrificing your health (at ...More difficult at 30? Sacrificing your health (at 30)? Really? I understand that people can encounter problems getting pregnant at any age, but "more difficult at 30" and "more risk to the mother and child" sounds a little melodramtic."Advanced Maternal Age", the charming medical term that docs use for "higher risk pregnancies" as a result of the mother's age, doesn't even start until 35. (I was AMA with dependent #3.)<br /><br />The policy doesn't require you to waive your right to a family - do it on a shore tour. I'm just a spouse/dependent but I count as my friends multiple women who've managed to do this. In most cases, their husbands are the professional parent, their pregnancies were planned during shore tours and siblings were pretty close in age. Oh and for the record, they were all over 30 and complication free.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-22445282521548273632010-06-11T13:04:16.000-04:002010-06-11T13:04:16.000-04:00Well, there is also swallowing...Well, there is also swallowing...USMC Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-87011793477635423002010-06-11T12:51:17.000-04:002010-06-11T12:51:17.000-04:00We have a troll! Responsibile fornication. Krist...We have a troll! Responsibile fornication. Kristen do not read the following:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />By that I meant fu##ing w/o a condom you douche nozzle. I was TRYING to be polite. If you are dense enough to think that the pregnancies onboard the ships are NOT from irresponsible or even illegal (UCMJ violation) fu##ing then you are clearly too wrapped up in gender politics to see what happens at sea. In fact, I'm guessing you have never had to serve at sea and deal w/ this $h!t. <br /><br />Once again, both sides are at fault, I've gone after both of my people when they broke the rules, had a kid out of wedlock and hosed up the deployment schedule while also being guilty of fraternization. And here is where I get very un-PC. If the woman can be in charge of her body for an abortion, then why is it so darned hard for her to be responsibile for her birth control. If you are telling me condoms were breaking every time we had a pregnancy at sea or deployment then I'll laugh at you and tell you to shut your puss dripping pie hole. <br /><br />I think we will see more calls of SH and SA down the road. Once again, to avoid the punishment and responsibility of the decisions made. Look at the Naval Academy. <br /><br />PAIN! (ref MTH)LT Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-27748973567648465112010-06-11T12:43:07.000-04:002010-06-11T12:43:07.000-04:00Anon,
Yep. I cling stubbornly to the concept tha...Anon,<br /><br />Yep. I cling stubbornly to the concept that our military exists to fight and win our nation's wars. And that in those wars, people get killed. And lots more get killed if the unit is not trained or espirit is low. So if someone doesn't want to make the sacrifices necessary, perhaps they need to do something else.<br /><br />I know that is SO pre-Obama. <br /><br />Oh, and your comment below "only men to have sex"? What are you complaining about? You want DADT repealed.UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.com