tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post3096129502556419554..comments2024-01-03T05:18:54.650-05:00Comments on CDR Salamander: Can this be operationalized?CDR Salamanderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05981221786954902349noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-29929704560067464902011-06-23T00:45:59.000-04:002011-06-23T00:45:59.000-04:00I'm with you. See above, and below. Got it one...I'm with you. See above, and below. Got it one, Byron. /GrampsGrandpa Bluewater.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-28654642858253904252011-06-23T00:38:35.000-04:002011-06-23T00:38:35.000-04:00<span>ard was in a known mined channel not a...<i><span>ard was in a known mined channel not at sea</span></i><br /><br />Nothing was <b>KNOWN</b> about it...Go back and check <b><span><i>YOUR</i></span></b> facts.<br /><br />Point is...When confronted with violence civil ships have suffered horribly.<br /><br /><i><span>Support your insuations about RFA in Falklands with facts pls.</span></i><br /><br />Take the time to read Clapss narrative, as well as Woodward's. They address these issues in detail. As does "Ordeal By Exocet" by the navigator of the Glamorgan.<br /><br />Or you can ignore what really happened.<br /><br />And its too late to dig up what Morison had to say. You will find it right interesting.<br /><br /><span><i>And know that the RFA subsequent to Falklands significantly changed its RFA crewing to include RN sailors as weapons operators</i></span><br /><br /><a href="http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA469133" rel="nofollow">There are very significant legal isues for the USN to go down that particular road.</a><br /><br />But you've already chosen to not let that get in the way of your pipe dream of supplanting CIVMAR ships for the bulk of the USN.<br /><br /><i><span>The Oiler was during WW2.</span></i><br /><br />Yeah...That was the last time the USN faced a signifacant threat at sea...<br /><br />Of course <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlhjhDrChno" rel="nofollow">there was this more recent case of a CIVMAR Manned ship conducting a critical warfare mission getting shut down with a boat hook...</a><br /><br />Time to renavalize -remilitarize- that mission.<br /><br />The Cold War is over lee. You need to understand that your CIVMAR dominated Navy dream is not going to fly in this century.sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-35309147644063748272011-06-23T00:28:59.000-04:002011-06-23T00:28:59.000-04:00Thanks Sid for the War Damage Report.
NO Civilian...Thanks Sid for the War Damage Report.<br /><br />NO Civilian manned ship could have survived that. Not that Merchant Mariners aren't brave. They clearly are. They aren't organized, equipped, trained, or structurally disciplined to do, and their crews are way, way too small.<br /><br />Leesea: Your error is the same as the fish's error about air - no experience, no concept, because you are superbly adapted to your environment, to wit, total American world wide maritime supremacy.<br />You, commendably, want to conserve the public purse and advance techniques you know from long experience to work.<br /><br />That era is (unnecessarily, prematurely, needlessly and irresponsibly) fading fast. The new rivals are rising, fueled by the wealth that the congresses of idiots diverted to them while throwing away out industrial base and the wealth of the nation.<br /><br />Maritime supremacy will be up for grabs and every ship the Navy has will have to be able to defend itself and add to the defensive weight of the task force. <br /><br />The (largely ephemeral) economies that offloaded a full naval crew from our auxiliaries and eliminated class after class of auxiliaries were based on a postulate which will no longer apply when the next test comes, as come it must - and will. Next time there will be no rear area or naval dominance. Next time, the war starts at the sea bouy.Grandpa Bluewater.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-42789636089088321782011-06-22T22:45:28.000-04:002011-06-22T22:45:28.000-04:00The gunners mate school at Great Lakes is a green ...The gunners mate school at Great Lakes is a green field and the High Bay diesel shop is empty of students. Two score finest kind diesels sit lonely in an cavernous room with no students as do most of the other hands on spaces. I nearly wept after considering what might have been and what the future could hold. <br />Computer learning stations and a quick trip to the fleet are no substitute for hands on learning with seasoned instructors as far as engineering duties are concerned.<br />The flaws (the ignorance of incredibly gross dereliction of attention to basic maritime ship design) shown in the LCS are just another sad sign of how quickly we have forgotten what it takes to operate and maintain a ship at sea. guestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-61891338336284390462011-06-22T21:54:58.000-04:002011-06-22T21:54:58.000-04:00where the f..... have you been for the last 3-4 ye...where the f..... have you been for the last 3-4 years. you got it. in proper english no less.<br /><br />babble, babble, babble.<br /><br />Cpknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-39321833647537300142011-06-22T20:43:21.000-04:002011-06-22T20:43:21.000-04:00Retd Now, the current NFAF ships already have extr...Retd Now, the current NFAF ships already have extra bunks for military. They have MILDEPT Military Departments in the crew of varing sizes. NFAF ships already have gun mounts for .50 weapons on them. The JHSV has four ROSAM mounts in its design. What is missing are THE weapons and sensors which the blue water navy refuses to put onboard civilian crewed ships.<br /><br />And before Sid jumps in here, the CIVMARs crrews want! better protection by competent sailors.<br /><br />I say again Re-establish the Naval Armed Guards under COMSC - he is the type commander - lawyers be damned!leeseanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-14995193313925419502011-06-22T20:37:48.000-04:002011-06-22T20:37:48.000-04:00STUFT is the accurate term for those ships, go bac...STUFT is the accurate term for those ships, go back and read the history.<br /><br />You're off on all points, read my words carefully. <br /><br />Card was in a known mined channel not at sea. The Oiler was during WW2. Support your insuations about RFA in Falklands with facts pls. And know that the RFA subsequent to Falklands significantly changed its RFA crewing to include RN sailors as weapons operators. RFA ships have 30mm AA and missiles now also.<br /><br />So plesssse come up to present before you shoot down the future.leeseanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-19650027700867079312011-06-22T13:53:26.000-04:002011-06-22T13:53:26.000-04:00<span>Atlantic Converyor is a red herring is...<span><em>Atlantic Converyor is a red herring issue. it was a STUFT - Ship Taken up From Trade. The urgrency of the operation caused a major error in decision making which was catastrophic for AC and crew. <br /></em></span><br /><span></span> <br /><span>No its not. It was a catastrophic loss that nearly cost the Brits the campaign. </span><br /><span></span> <br /><span>And here we are a generation later, headed dowm the same wrong headed path.</span><br /><span></span> <br /><span><em>When in last 50 years has a USNS ship been lost at sea?</em></span><br /><span><em></em></span> <br /><span>Now thats one right smelly stinky red herring lee.</span><br /><span></span> <br /><span>When in the last 50 years has one been seriously attacked at sea?</span><br /><span></span><br /><span></span> <span>Ok. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_the_USNS_Card" rel="nofollow">The Card in the Mekong Delta.</a> </span><br /><span></span><br /><span>And it sank at the pier.</span><br /><span></span><br /><span>One has to wonder though if she could've been saved from sinking if she had the contemporaneous USN DC capabilities aboard though.</span><br /><span></span><br /><span>(BTW I used to see <a href="http://www.freewebs.com/18aviationcompanyotternest/CVE13_1.jpg" rel="nofollow">the Core </a>right often in Alameda loading up F-5s and A-1s in those days.)</span><br /><span></span><br /><span><em>BTW check WW2 history - how many naval auxiliaries then crewed by sailors were lost due to enemy action (my ref doc goes to Pacific)?</em></span><br /><span><em></em></span><br /><span>Yes. <a href="http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/c000001/c52796.jpg" rel="nofollow">Lets do lee....</a></span><br /><span></span><br /><span>Thats the Alchiba burning....</span><br /><span></span><br /><span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Shepherd_Freeman" rel="nofollow">It was her regular navy crew -with its full up DC abilities- that kept her afloat and got that cargo off the ship and to the Marines</a> ...And got the ship home.</span><br /><span></span><br /><span>Before you scoff and dismiss that assertion offhand...</span><br /><span></span><br /><span><a href="http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/WDR/U.S.S.%20ALCHIBA%20(AKA-6),%20TORPEDO%20DAMAGE%20-%20Solomon%20Islands,%20November%2028%20and%20December%207,%201942.pdf" rel="nofollow"><strong>Read the War Damage Report</strong></a></span><br /><span></span><br /><span><em>I have been saying we need Armed Naval Auxiliaries too upgunned like RFA ships. Not takers. <br /></em></span><br /><span>There were still significant crew complications with the Brit RFA's -and civilians aboard RN ships as well- in the Falklands...</span><br /><span></span><br /><span></span>sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-24781621999281360602011-06-22T12:47:14.000-04:002011-06-22T12:47:14.000-04:00Atlantic Converyor is a red herring issue. it was ...Atlantic Converyor is a red herring issue. it was a STUFT - Ship Taken up From Trade. The urgrency of the operation caused a major error in decision making which was catastrophic for AC and crew.<br /><br />USN sealift ships are operated and loaded differently. When in last 50 years has a USNS ship been lost at sea? There have been a couple of large ship explosions while loading ammo/explosives in CONUS ports. And certainly a few close calls on chartered ships..but.<br /><br />Grandpa, I agree with you 100% that all naval auxiliaries and sealift ships as well as MSC chartered merchants must have Naval Armed Guards onboard. I have been saying that for TWO years now with no interest on the part of the USN.<br /><br />I have been saying we need Armed Naval Auxiliaries too upgunned like RFA ships. Not takers.<br /><br />There are NEVER going to be enough USN escorts again, I certainly don't like that situation but just look at the SCN hulls being bought. So we got to live with what we got and improve those ships as best possible. AND go look at both the SCN and NDSF to see how many NFAF ships are being built (too few, too late) and how many sealif ships are NOT being built at all!<br /><br />BTW check WW2 history - how many naval auxiliaries then crewed by sailors were lost due to enemy action (my ref doc goes to Pacific)? YES that will be the center of significant action in the future. What is the USN doing about the Pacific - a generalization no reply neededleeseanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-55834647102022520682011-06-22T10:50:09.000-04:002011-06-22T10:50:09.000-04:00GBW gets 50% of the hat and t-shirt revenues. GBW gets 50% of the hat and t-shirt revenues. UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-20043322775569149042011-06-22T10:44:35.000-04:002011-06-22T10:44:35.000-04:00Pax Oceana Americana moribunda est.
Makes for a ...Pax Oceana Americana moribunda est. <br /><br />Makes for a good motto for BigNavy moving forward! HT to GBW!DeltaBravonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-19342397412403018682011-06-22T10:35:42.000-04:002011-06-22T10:35:42.000-04:00Arggh - acceptable vice exceptable, only half of f...Arggh - acceptable vice exceptable, only half of first cup of joe or just getting old, take your pick. Damn dyslexic keyboard, mumble, grumble, grump...Grandpa Bluewater.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-87464341461871777612011-06-22T10:32:33.000-04:002011-06-22T10:32:33.000-04:00Ah, the Fifth Dimension, ah, Marilyn's lovely ...Ah, the Fifth Dimension, ah, Marilyn's lovely voice. <br /><br />Ahem, but I digress (and a lovely digression she was).<br /><br />Pintle mounted fifties are all very well for the odd pirate or two, but when steaming in convoy one needs an adequately equipped and trained defensive battery to add to the inner ring of defense, at least out to the horizon and effective range of radar laid gunnery. Then there is the wee issue of Damage Control. Merchant crews have one rpt one DC locker and one rpt one primary and backup hose team for firefighting. Their training and drilling and equipping for combatting flooding is even less capable. Their standards are quite exceptable for peacetime, but submarginal for a real war z<br /><br />Compare the loss of Atlantic Conveyor with that of USS Pecos, the oiler fleeing south of what is now Indonesia enroute to Australia in early 1942. Pecos fought hard, and long, soaked up a lot of damage, and died hard, steaming alone. Escorted, Atlantic Conveyor burned and sank. In the same situation, Pecos had a fighting chance. <br /><br />The oceans, very very soon, will be up for grabs re maritime supremacy. Pax Oceana Americana is moribund, due to the decline of the USN.<br /><br />Civilian manned minesweepers were ineffective in clearing the way for the Brit Med Fleet to bombard Istanbul and force the Ottoman Empire out of the first world war. Result - Gallipolli.<br /><br />Now what would the world be like if Churchill had been Prime Minister during the 1930?<br /><br />We are setting ourselves up for tragedy beyond imagination. Grandpa Bluewater.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-37833562137131812122011-06-22T10:03:51.000-04:002011-06-22T10:03:51.000-04:00You have a point. For those who are ruining our N...You have a point. For those who are ruining our Navy, maybe a stern talking-to? Or perhaps a disapporiving glance? Time-out? How about something a little more encouraging? "Thank you for making good choices!" We don't want self-esteem to be a casualty of this war....UltimaRatioRegisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-83885693713628759612011-06-22T10:03:23.000-04:002011-06-22T10:03:23.000-04:00Ah, the Fifth Dimension. Alas I do not know their...Ah, the Fifth Dimension. Alas I do not know their fate, but I wish Marilyn every good thing should she still be among us. Grandpa Bluewater.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-24204509490778896062011-06-22T09:57:59.000-04:002011-06-22T09:57:59.000-04:00True enough, but my recommendation was offered in ...True enough, but my recommendation was offered in a spirit of beneficial suggestion. Hanging is so incompatible with a "global force for good". Grandpa Bluewater.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-61703369534978012432011-06-22T01:57:02.000-04:002011-06-22T01:57:02.000-04:00The MESRONs already do the mission you describe. ...The MESRONs already do the mission you describe. They det out to to various MSC ships transiting in certain areas of the world. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-8538152783909524592011-06-21T20:30:16.000-04:002011-06-21T20:30:16.000-04:00How about a compromise ? For all Fleet Auxiliar...How about a compromise ? For all Fleet Auxiliaries, at least make space and weld in another 24 racks. Nothing fancy. Stacked 3 high, minimal locker space. So that IF some leader decides that just before T-AKE or T-AO goes cruising thru or to or around ___________ <someplace>, then at the last moment, some squared away Admiral can order a dozen or two Gunners Mates to quickly get onboard and ride for a month or so.<br /><br />And you could also squirrel away 8 or 10 .50cal mounts (always securely locked up) just in case those 18 to 24 gunners mates decided to set them up on deck one night. And think of the benefit for the Shore Based Staff's. They could easily find a T-AKE or T-AO (ships that actually can underway and stay at sea) to put 24 midshipmen onboard for summer training, as long as the Naval Auxilary is not running thru the Strait of Mallaca !<br /><br />You know the old Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared ! (just in case the age of aquarius doesn't arrive soon, accompanied by peace and understanding.....) Whatever happened to the 5th Dimension ??</someplace>Retired Nownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-31850431363062981012011-06-21T18:04:14.000-04:002011-06-21T18:04:14.000-04:00How long did the Atlantic Conveyor last, and what ...How long did the Atlantic Conveyor last, and what effect did losing every army and marine helo in the task force have on the campaign?.<br />Ask the widows of the officers and men who were forced to fight like it was the Boer War, on foot and through defenses they should have cut off with vertical envelopment. It worked, but it shouldn't have been needed.<br /><br />Even merchant ships need gun crews. Naval Armed Guards.<br /><br />What YOU don't understand is that I have sailed as a Naval Officer on warships, and as a Merchant Marine Officer on Naval auxiliaries.<br /><br />What you also don't understand is Maritime Supremacy for the USN is rotting away and will be gone gone gone in the lifetime of the ships we build now.<br /><br />Every naval auxiliary not manned and armed as a warship is just a helpless target and a greater burden on the escort vessels we won't have, when the next war at sea comes to decide maritime supremacy. Grandpa Bluewater.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-53988449091670937412011-06-21T17:10:16.000-04:002011-06-21T17:10:16.000-04:00<span>What you fail to undersand and accept ...<span><em>What you fail to undersand and accept is that warships are not needed for every mission the Navy performs</em>. <br /> <br />The USN is shedding more and more missions..To its detriment. <br /> <br /><em>Get used to that mantra because it is not going to change regardless of your snarks.</em> <br /><em></em> <br /><strong>STILL</strong> doesn't make it the proper course of action. <br /></span><br /><span> <em>How many wars etc have occured in that time period? </em></span><br /><span><em></em></span><br /><span>At sea? For the USN? </span><br /><span></span><br /><span><strong>NONE</strong></span><br /><span></span><br /><span>And thats your failing lee. you can't see past your post-WWII Cold War view of the seas being a benign USN bastion.</span><br /><span></span><br /><span>Its a real mistake to believe that will continue.</span><br /><span></span>sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-58058558795045634162011-06-21T17:06:20.000-04:002011-06-21T17:06:20.000-04:00What you fail to undersand and accept is that wars...<em>What you fail to undersand and accept is that warships are not needed for every mission the Navy performs</em>. <br /><br />The USN is shedding more and more missions..To its detriment.<br /><br /><em>Get used to that mantra because it is not going to change regardless of your snarks.</em><br /><em></em><br /><strong>STILL</strong> doesn't make it the proper course of action.<br /><em></em><br /><strong></strong>sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-14380127087650088802011-06-21T16:28:32.000-04:002011-06-21T16:28:32.000-04:00two things:
is there actually a cathodic protecti...two things:<br /><br />is there actually a cathodic protection system installed and if not whynot.<br /><br />are the zincs still on the bottom of the boat? is there electrical contact between the zincs and the hull? are the zincs cast at the proper temperature (there is a weird crystalization problem that occurs if the foundry that casts them doesn't do it right and they won't work properly)? <br /><br />bitter, bitter, bitter experience.<br /><br />Cpknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-32171235700643798832011-06-21T16:13:53.000-04:002011-06-21T16:13:53.000-04:00Bryon, (I will play devils advocate here) Are you ...Bryon, (I will play devils advocate here) Are you assuming facts not in evidence? Or do you know how Austal screwed up?<br /><br />I mean I have not read anything conclusive as yet. And should we bet that SUPSHIP caught the problem early on - I sure would not.<br /><br />I am pretty sure the problem will be solved, its just to damn bad it has taken this long? Wonder why?leeseanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-17462661150436322802011-06-21T16:10:08.000-04:002011-06-21T16:10:08.000-04:00WPE is a tactical sealift ship and as such the sys...WPE is a tactical sealift ship and as such the system works just fine for it. The ship is peforming administrative lift for the Marines because there are NOT enought amphib warships to do that.<br /><br />Having auxiliaries and sealfit ships crewed by merchant mariners has worked successfully for almost 50 years now. How many wars etc have occured in that time period? <br /><br />What you fail to undersand and accept is that warships are not needed for every mission the Navy performs. Get used to that mantra because it is not going to change regardless of your snarks.leeseanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7704146.post-44243549730870396542011-06-21T11:54:06.000-04:002011-06-21T11:54:06.000-04:00God love our junior Bluejackets, but nothing is Sa...God love our junior Bluejackets, but nothing is Sailor Proof.<br /><br />The best we can hope for is Sailor Resistant.butchnoreply@blogger.com